GA 167 | How to Be Vulnerable with Debbie McAllister

You're listening to episode 167 with Debbie McAllister.

Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira.

Hey there. This is Ron Pereri with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day in your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now, today, I'm excited to welcome Debbie McAllister to the show. Now, Debbie is a consultant who primarily a Lean consultant who primarily works in the. With the healthcare world. And she actually shares a really powerful why story or why she got into Lean Healthcare early on in the episode. So I'll let her explain that, but it's a pretty profound reason, I think you'll agree. And then really, the topic of the day is something that we have really never addressed here on the podcast before, and that's the topic of vulnerability. Vulnerability. Hard to say, but basically, Debbie kind of explores why leaders need to be from time to time, you know, vulnerable and not, you know, kind of know it alls. And. And when she just really, we really get into it because I wanted to make sure I understood what it meant. So I actually asked probably more questions than normal in this particular episode because I wanted to make sure I understood, but I think it's some really good stuff. She's also a John C. Maxwell coach, and so she kind of gets into. Into how. How that. That side of the kind of continuous improvement world meshes very well with Lean. And so I really enjoyed talking to Debbie, and I think you're going to like the show. So show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 167. Again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 167. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, Debbie, thank you so much for coming onto the show. Where are you calling in from?

I am calling in Ron from Laramie, Wyoming.

Nice. That's a beautiful part of the country.

It is gorgeous.

Very good. All right, well, thanks for coming on. I'm really excited to have you on. This is a kind of a maybe a topic that I don't think we've ever explored on the podcast. So that's always exciting. But before we get into the kind of the topic of the day, as you know, we like to start all of our shows with our guests sharing a quote, something that possibly inspires them. So do you have one?

I do. Ron, first, I wanted to actually thank you for the opportunity to come on and chat with you, and I'm really thrilled to be here.

Well, thank you.

But my favorite quote that I frequently use is by John C. Maxwell, which is, everything rises and falls on leadership.

What's that mean to you?

For myself, it's evolved over the years. Today, what it means and in the content of Lean is we start thinking about when we're going in, trying to do some continuous improvement, and does it sustain? Do we change the culture? And we always point back to the leadership. Were they engaged? You know, did they embrace the culture that we're trying to build to the thought leader, servant leader? And we could always point it back to the number one reasons when things do not sustain. So that's how I look at why it's so important to focus on the leadership.

Yeah. Awesome. Great. All right, well, Debbie, why don't you kind of kick things off with telling everybody a little bit about your background, how you first came to learn about all this continuous improvement stuff, and then what you're up to these days?

Okay. Well, I started this journey about 15 years ago when I was working in high tech. I had the opportunity when I was at Seagate, where the executive management decided to focus on Six Sigma as a competitive advantage. And so at that point in my career, I was working in a sales and marketing finance role, and my VP tapped me on the shoulder and said, we'd like to send you to this.

Okay.

Had no idea what I was getting myself into. And I went through a very rigorous Six Sigma program, you know, spending four weeks, one week a month learning it and then bringing it back into our transactional world to improve our relationships, really, with our OEM partners and our distribution partners. So that's how I started. And then I moved over to Hitachi and did it there for a few years globally. Been able to oversee it over 13 sites, primarily in Asia. So I pretty much lived in Asia for a couple years, and so that was pretty exciting. And then at the. Towards the end of my time at Hitachi, my father was diagnosed a misdiagnosis, actually. And we had several medical errors happen. And by time his diagnosis was caught, it was too late. So he ended up having you Know cancer in stage four. So he asked me, as we were sitting in a hotel, sorry. At the hospital ICU room, he asked that I go fix healthcare. And so it took a little time after he passed away. And in 2011, I jumped into, I jumped into doing the lean work in health care and joining Sutter Health.

And when was that? What, what year is that again?

That was in 2011.

Okay, okay. Very good, very good. All right. Well, Debbie, the kind of the topic of the day is, is vulnerability, I guess. So let's, I don't know, just kind of maybe start at the start, as they say, and tell us a little bit about what, what does, what does vulnerability have to do with, with lean and continuous improvement?

Yeah, you know, I'm frequently asked that, Ron. You know, it's, it's not something that we really talk about in healthcare and in the lean world especially. But I've noticed as I was going through my own progression through coaching others with the exacts and directors and managers was that there was something that was different in some work areas of being able to sustain the work that we were doing versus other process owners or executives. And I started really paying attention to it. And I. And what I discovered was that some of the link was the vulnerability in that executive or leader being able to be vulnerable to receive the coaching. And so I started to study more about vulnerability and I was really, I was actually a little surprised at what I found. And so I really have just started to focus on that portion of coaching as coaching is becoming more and more talked about in our lean industry of making that difference from the tool based to the behavior based. And coaching goes hand in hand with that.

So is it similar to. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it. Like I don't know humility, like you don't know everything or having a. What does it, what does it mean to be vulnerable?

To be vulnerable. So who I like to quote on that is an expert in vulnerability and her name is Renee Brown. She's really considered that expert. Her definition is vulnerability is not about winning or losing. It's having the courage to show up and be seen when we have no control over the outcome. Vulnerability is not a weakness. It's our greatest measure of courage.

Okay.

So I link vulnerability with the coaching with when you're working with an executive, you're working with a process owner or a leader. And in order for them to go through change of how they're going to show up as a leader, they need to become vulnerable. Vulnerability to take on New behaviors, vulnerability to try new things, vulnerability to not be the expert in what they're doing or having all of the answers. And it's a really uncomfortable feeling. So I relate it back to myself is when I, when I show up as myself, I show up to hold the space for my client who is going through the change. And change is difficult. We all go through the cycles. Whether it's at home or if it's in a lean implementation or cultural change, we can look back on it and, you know, realize that was our greatest opportunity for growth. But you are very vulnerable in that change process now.

I mean, what's interesting about it is, you know, I have my notes up in front of me here and Microsoft Word and vulnerabilities there, and I just right clicked on it and I hit synonyms just for the fun of it. And it's interesting, the words that come up here, one of them is susceptibility, weakness, defensiveness, helplessness, openness, exposure, liability. So honestly, it has more of a. At least Microsoft Word here is more of a kind of a negative connotation. Now it does have openness. So that to me is more like what you're saying. It's not helplessness or weakness. Or is it? I don't want to put words in your mouth. You know what I'm saying?

I do. So when I look at it, there is a big connotation out there that vulnerability is weakness. And, you know, and honestly, in some organizations, you don't want to be vulnerable. They'll eat you for lunch. But if we are creating organizations where at the very bottom line, the people who are touching our patients in healthcare and lean, if we want them to trust us as leaders, we have to provide that safe environment. We have to have trust in our culture. And to have trust, you have to be vulnerable. They kind of go hand in hand with humility and trust and vulnerability. And so it is a weakness in some cultures. And I think that's why there's been this emphasis on making changes in healthcare.

Can you give me some examples? I don't want you to use names or, you know, places or anything like that, but just maybe some generic examples, you know, real, real examples of a leader who was vulnerable, and it added a value to the situation.

So one of the leaders that I've worked with many years ago, she was working, she had a pretty fairly decent staff, and she had about 125 people in her staff. So. And it was this is in health care. And she was really engaged in really wanting to become A lean leader. And so she was going out and talking and trying to explain things the best she could. And then behind closed doors, as we would coach, she was really struggling. She doesn't understand. I'm trying to tell them this, some keywords there, trying to tell them, but I still am being measured by this outcome over here on my right side. But I need to get them there. And this journey was being perceived as being a linear journey to change. So there was another key area. So what we did is we worked on slowly making her feel more comfortable. So the first thing that happened actually was at one point she became so frustrated that she broke down in the office behind closed doors where it's safe and she didn't understand what exactly am I supposed to be doing? I don't understand. We have this old way and then we have this new way. I'm still being measured by the same results. And so from there we worked backwards to, well, why don't we just share to your team that it's all. This is a big experiment. They're giving us, myself as the coach to come in to provide this safe net for them. But we're all trying to figure out what is that going to look like here in this organization and in this unit. So she started to share these in their daily huddles. And what happened was that people started to engage. They're like, well, we thought you knew where you were going and you just weren't sharing it and you seem more stressed than you did before. And so she started to share that this is. She's used to having all of the answers and she's learning how to address problems differently, how to spend more time for their understanding versus her understanding. So in her simply sharing this part of it, which I consider vulnerability, is that her group started to engage more. Now you can fast forward many years later and she's a role model. They're frequently toured and she is seen as the leader who had the most significant change within the organization. And she coaches other leaders now within the organization.

So talk a little bit. Someone's listening to this and are kind of like, yeah, kind of get it but. But they're not quite sure. Like, what does it mean to them? Like, are there any practical, I don't know, ways people can. Can perhaps practice this? Like some, I don't know, some practical advice that you can give someone like try A, B and C or is that kind of too cookie cutter?

I think it's a yes and a no. Right. We work in a lot of gray areas with what we do with lean and leadership coaching. And so I think there's some practical steps. The first thing is just to acknowledge to the people that you're working with that this is what you're trying to.

Yeah.

Just saying it out loud, you know, and that they're trying. They're trying a different way to become a better leader. I think you can always share that so that they understand why you're acting differently and what your intent is. No, my intent is to become a better leader. To develop you as leaders and to become problem solvers.

Yes.

You know, so my common coaching question with this, that's very, I think, very practical, is I will ask them, what was your intent? You know, when they go to communicate at a huddle, at a leadership meeting, at a symposium is what was your intent? And how do you know that they know that.

Yeah. Kind of like Simon Sinek. What's your why?

Right, exactly. Exactly. And what I have also found with the vulnerability is that. And I love Simon. He's. He's one of my favorite people right now.

Yes.

And has been, you know, and. And is sharing our whys. When you asked me about my journey, I shared my why. Why am I doing leadership coaching and lean and healthcare? And it's, you know, really to eliminate patient harm. And that motivates me every single day. And so as a leader, there's. What is your reason to get up and come to work every day? Once we connect with that why and sharing the why, it helps people connect with us.

Yeah.

And. And knowing that you're interested in knowing what their why is as well. And I think those simple. The simple steps of, you know, sharing what you're doing, why you're doing it, and what your intent is, and constantly asking yourself that is you're communicating, purposely communicating, you know, what was my intent and how would I know?

Yeah. Yeah. Anything else?

Anything else? A common question I asked you is what else should I know?

Yeah. So the leader needs to ask that. Yeah. Good, good. So before the show, we were talking and you mentioned that. That you were also a John C. Maxwell coach. So I'm curious if maybe you could share a little bit about, first of all, what that is in case someone's not familiar, and then maybe talk about how that background supports the work that you do within the lean world.

So John C. Maxwell, about six years ago, decided that he really wanted to leave a legacy. And his legacy is he wanted and saw the need to. For leadership. Leadership in our homes, leadership in the country, leadership in the world. And so he came together with another leader, and they created where you can become a John C. Maxwell coach. And so you go through a certification process, and then you have access to some of his materials to help integrate it. And so what I found was that I frequently reference the 21 irrefutable laws of Leadership, which is one of his foundational books. And in reading that and really studying it, I saw the crosswalk between the behaviors and the principles that we're bringing to organizations in a lean culture change or a lean leader, and seeing how they just crosswalk together and how we work together to. To make those changes. And it's really highlighted in his material. And so I've been able to pull them together and show the crosswalk with, you know, through masterminds, and then, you know, bringing it in as workshops and organizations, too, and then, you know, creating that, you know, the crosswalk to it. So, for example, in one of his laws is the law of empowerment. You know, only secure leaders give powers to others. So this is really about, you know, we're talking about empowering people to become problem solvers. So there's a really direct link of how we're able to do that. You know, really focusing on how you can develop others, create that connection with others and his. And he constantly does that with his. With his material, the law of respect. You know, what does respect mean to each of us? You know, so there's a really. A lot of. A lot of similarities between the two. So I was able to connect it for myself.

Yeah, very cool. Very cool. You mentioned masterminds. Talk a little bit about. First of all, again, in case folks aren't familiar, what is a mastermind and how does that fit into the. Into the lean world?

So a mastermind is. Isn't actually anything new. We're hearing a lot more about it, but it's been around since the 1930s, actually. Napoleon Hill.

Exactly. Yeah. I was going to say that's the first time I ever read about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in that great book, right?

Think and Grow Rich.

Yeah, Think and Grow Rich. Right. It's on every. Should be on everybody's books. Bookshelves as a good read. And so he talks about it as bringing a group of people together to help focus and help each other grow and our skills. And so the mastermind in this content is where you come together and really we focus on a book and we go through and we read the book and we ask ourselves, you know, questions that actually make us think about it, and then we challenge each other hold each other accountable and share our own experiences of what it would mean. And so I do masterminds virtually. You know, they're small groups. They're usually between six and eight people. And we meet virtually and we talk for an hour, and they do some reading and ask themselves the questions. So we grow as a group and really just study material.

Nice. Got it. Very good. Hey, well, let's go ahead and transition into the reflection section. Debbie. So this first question is. You sort of almost touched on it, and I was about to stop. You say, oh, hold on, hold on. Don't answer that yet. So this first one is about respect for people. And so I'm curious, what does that mean to you?

Well, you know what's interesting about respect for people, Ron, is that over the years, it has really evolved. So today, what it means is to go slow, to go fast, to take the time to understand what respect means to those who you are of service to. So there was a point when back in 2014, I visited Virginia Mason, and we were talking about respect for people that they had this great workshop that they do within their organization about what respect for people meant. And I was always curious, and I said, oh, I would love to see your material. And they said, well, we could gladly share it, but you can't really apply it to your organization. What they meant was that when they created this curriculum, they went out to all parts of their organization and asked their people, what did respect mean to you and what doesn't it mean? So they took into account all the different cultures and the diversity across age groups, and they created what that meant for their specific organization. So when I think of respect for people, when I think, you know, go slow, to go fast, what does that mean? And that particular organization or the subcultures that are within each of our departments.

What'S the best advice you've ever received?

It's always about your client. And my role is to develop their thinking and meeting them where they are today without judgment, without a preconceived notion of where they should be and understanding that change, this change that we're helping them through is not linear.

What do you mean by it's not linear?

So if I want to set a goal by the end of this strategic year, that I'm going to be a thought leader, I'm going to hit that box. I'm going to go, when you ask me the questions, I'm going to answer them. But, you know, when nobody's looking, how do I act? How do I show up as an Everyday person, you know, when I'm. When I'm not rested. And so it's not linear. You know, you might do great for a couple months, and then there might be a fire drill and you might step back into what you've always known because it's more familiar. So always showing up without judgment that they could do that.

Yeah. Thinking about, was it Seth Godin and the dip or whatever, you know, sometimes it talks about that as well as, like, it's not always. It's not always great times, but you have to be able to persevere. Right. So.

Correct.

Hey, can you think of maybe an experiment or a project that you worked on in the past that didn't quite work out like you planned? And if so, what did you learn?

Well, I wish I could say I've never had that experience.

Yeah.

Yeah, right. I mean, as I reflect back, it was pretty painful at the time, but I've had a few. So I did work with an organization, a unit, really, who had a pretty big goal and their goal wasn't real clear. And I was. I jumped in and what I forgot to do was to form that original partnership agreement before we began coaching and asking for their permission and setting really clear expectations of what that would look like, you know, on my end, on their end, and how we would hold each other accountable, make progress. And this was throughout the unit at multiple levels. And what I learned was that the importance of it. Almost half of those leaders, there was about five leaders involved, did not want to receive coaching. They weren't even remotely interested. Some of them played the game of I'm going to. I'm going to kind of do what you say, but not really. Right. If you're in front of me, I might say the right thing. I may not, but I'm going to still do what I want. And so it was a really painful experience at the time because I was really perceived as. As not being successful in making the change. And I would have even brought those expectations up to the highest level to make sure that they were very clear on those expectations. And why was this important to make these changes and not just focus on the outcomes?

Safe to say those folks were not vulnerable, Right?

They were not vulnerable. In fact, that unit with their big mission really does no longer exist. A lot of the people moved on within the organization or left the organization. So it's unfortunate. It really left a mark on the whole unit.

Yeah. What did you take from that? I mean, obviously it didn't feel good. But was there anything that you learned from It.

What I learned was really the importance of leadership and setting the clear expectations. And did we have to get outcomes by any means, or could we slow down to go fast? Could we set these expectations clear? Could we set goals that were achievable, A stretch, but achievable, and develop our people along the way?

I guess another way of looking at it. I'm curious, you know, if you were to perform hansai or reflection on yourself, like, if you could go back to day one of that. That. That engagement and read and maybe spend five minutes talking to yourself, like, okay, here's. Here's what you don't want to do, or here's what I want you to do. Would you have done anything differently?

Oh, yes. Yes. I showed up in an area that was extremely clinical, and I'm not clinical. And I didn't understand the impact of not understanding what they were talking about. So I spent the first 90 days trying to figure out what their acronyms were. And I wasn't exactly happy with the assignment. And so I would have been really more upfront with my own leadership on what was this truly going to look like? And. And started differently. I felt like I started in the train, had already kind of taken off, you know, left. Left the station, and then I joined the team.

I got it. Yeah.

And so I was already, you know, how was I supposed to catch up? In retrospect, I wasn't the best candidate to go into that organization. And so I was. And I would focus more on myself. I was focusing more on how I felt about this versus. Okay, you know, I use the expression pull up a good big girl pants.

Right.

And go in there. And really I was focused more on me. So that's what I would told myself. Okay, Park. Park your concerns at the door. Focus here. What do you need to do to close those gaps? You know, do my own gap analysis. Okay. Where can I help fill in those gaps? What are my experiments? To get there and start those agreements up front. Yeah. But really focus on them more than how I was feeling. Got it.

What are you most proud of as it relates to your journey?

I am most proud of that I continue and to be curious that I understand my why and that I reflect every day on how to learn and become a better coach to help others and to be of service. That I understand that I do not have all of the answers and I willingly share that and always am willing to help figure it out together in new situations and that I know it's not about me. It's been a Journey to get there. And I'm glad that I'm able to now model that. What does humility look like on an everyday basis? And showing up as yourself and having some fun.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

We got to have some fun in it, you know, and so I'm happy that I'm able to incorporate all into the journey.

Got it.

To help others.

Have you read any good books lately?

I have, I have. So I know it might sound a little repetitive, but I am reading for, like, the 15th time, the 21 irrefutable laws of Leadership, and. And I continually find new ways to incorporate that into what I'm doing. I've been really focused also on Simon, you know, about the why and in his last book.

Yeah, yeah. We actually interviewed Simon. I can't remember what episode it was to dig it up, but, yeah, it was pretty incredible having him on the show.

Yeah. I especially like Simon's insight into the millennials.

Yes. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, yeah. He's brilliant. So you've been at this for quite some time, Debbie, and you've learned a lot. But I'm curious, is there a knowledge or skill area that you feel you need to improve in order to become a better lean thinker?

I do. I do. I'm constantly looking at my A3 thinking, how do I help others understand the problem? How do they know it's a problem? You know, what do they see or hear or observe? And how do I communicate that with the different learning styles? And so I feel like A3 thinking and doing an A3 is really like a big onion, and you're continually evolving and peeling it back. And so I'm really focused on that this year in my own development.

Very good. All right, well, Debbie, I've really enjoyed having you on the show, and let's go ahead and wrap things up with you sharing some final words of wisdom. And then why don't you tell people how they can connect with you?

Okay, so my final words of wisdom is actually a quote by Stephen M r. Covey, who wrote the Speed of Trust. And what he says is the reality is that everyone makes mistakes. The issue isn't whether you will make them, it's what you do about them. It's whether you will choose the path of humility and courage or the path of ego and pride.

That's very. Has a lot of ties to the topic of the day. Vulnerability, I think.

Right, yeah. Vulnerability. Our holding journey. And how do we all make this impact on healthcare?

Yeah. Awesome. Well, good stuff. Thanks again for coming onto the show and thank you for your work in healthcare. Obviously, we're all impacted by that one day or another, and so it's great. Do you know Mark Graben?

I do follow Mark Crabin and I've met him at some of the conferences. In fact, I'm hoping to see him soon in Palm Springs here in a couple of weeks.

Yeah, Brandon Brown's another guy. I don't know if you've ever met Brandon, but he's doing a ton of work in lean health care. Very, very passionate about it as well. Just like you. I think he'd like him.

I did meet Brandon because he's. I took a workshop with him. With Katakochi?

Yeah. Yeah. Very good. All right, well, thanks again, Debbie. I really enjoyed it and hopefully we can meet face to face one day.

I hope so. Take care, Brad.

Bye.

Bye. Okay, bye. Bye.

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