GA 172 | How to Apply Lean Through Virtual Coaching with Karyn Ross and EKemp

You're listening to episode 172 with Oliver Thompson, Elaine Kam, and Karen Ross. Welcome to the Gemba Academy podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now here's your host, Ron Perera. Hey, there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day and your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now, today, I'm excited to welcome Karen Ross back to the show. Now, Karen came on back in episode 138, and we talked about her book and creating service excellence, and that was a fantastic episode. So I definitely encourage you to go check that one out. But today, Karen is actually joined by two other folks, Oliver Thompson and Elaine Kam. Now, Oliver and Elaine are actually from the UK and as it turns out, Karen has been coaching them through their lean journey. And so what we did today is we got on, it was three people on the call. So I think it's the first time we ever had three folks on a call. And we just talked about their journey, kind of how they got started, talked about, you know, some of their early challenges that they had, and they really explore this whole ver the concept of virtual coaching. They like, they literally facetime with Karen and bring Karen and walk around their Gemba with their iPhones or whatever it might be. So it's a pretty interesting relationship and was super fun to explore that. Now, show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com you'll just look for episode 172. Again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 172. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, well, Karen, Oliver, and Elaine, thank you for coming onto the show. We had a few technical difficulties, but we practiced pdca and we're here and we made it. So I'm really excited. Thank you all for coming on. So let's just go ahead and say, well, where we're calling in from? So, Karen, I think you're closest to Texas. Where are you calling in from?

Yes, absolutely. I'm calling from lovely Naperville, Illinois, and we're about 35 miles west of Chicago. It's a beautiful sunny day over here today.

Awesome. Awesome. And, Oliver and Elaine, where are you calling in from?

Hi, we're calling in from Bury in Greater Manchester. That's in the uk and it's a beautiful day here today, too. Very sunny.

Very good, very good. All right, well, you guys know how the show goes. I know you all listen. And Karen, you're an old pro. You've been on before. So we like to kind of begin with a quote or two. So, Karen, do you possibly have one?

Sure, absolutely. And one of the things is that I am constantly inspired what my clients are telling me about what they're learning. So my quote today is from Oliver. And the other day in a coaching session, he said, in a wonderful moment of reflection, there's no one right way. It all depends on purpose. And I think as we talk about lean and as we talk about how we apply that in small business into what our customers need now and for the future, that is a great thing to think about.

Nice. Nice. So you're famous. You have a quote now, Oliver, but you didn't guess that when you woke up this morning. That's awesome.

Absolutely, absolutely. Although we have got a quote of our own, which isn't one of mine, you'll be glad to know. And it comes. Comes from a Zen master from Japan called Sunryu Suzuki. And what he said was, a Zen master's life could be said to be so many years of succeeding, wrong with wrong, or said another way. Life is kind of one continuous mistake. And that, to me, kind of has two meanings. One, in terms of the kind of. In a lean context is how it kind of refers to pdca and the fact that we, you know, we're kind of experimenting and always making mistakes, but that these are really kind of the basis for improvement, both of ourselves and our kind of processes and the organization. And also I feel that it has an application to the way we think as well, because certainly, looking back at myself, I've always had a tendency to think that whatever kind of I believed at whatever stage in my life has been kind of the truth and the one best way. And really looking at the, you know, in hindsight, you know, what I thought back then nearly always turns out to be wrong. So it really just helps to put into context and to remember really, that whatever we're thinking today is kind of provisional. And therefore, we don't need to be kind of too attached to our current way of thinking, which kind of opens our minds a little bit.

Yeah, I like it. Can you say the Quote, one more time.

Yeah, it's a Zen master's life. Could be said to be so many years of succeeding. Wrong with wrong.

I like it. Very good. All right, well, let's kind of go around the horn and just so everyone has an understanding of who we're talking to. So, Karen, once you start, tell us a little bit about your background and then what you're up to these days.

Sure, absolutely. I'm a Lean coach and consultant and the co author of the Shingo Award winning Toyota Way to Service Excellence, Lean Transformation in Service Organizations. And although I am based here near Chicago, I use a coaching approach and I help clients all over the world improve their business through creativity and Lean.

And you're also an awesome keynote speaker.

Thank you so much. And I'm an artist as well.

Oh, wow. Nice.

All kinds of fun and fabulous, enjoyable things.

Karen is one of those keynote presenters that sometimes you go to these conferences and you're like, oh my gosh, these people up there rambling on. And Karen gets up there and she's bouncing around smiling and you can't help but just smile when Karen's going. That's what I love about you. You make me smile.

Thank you.

All right. All right, Oliver and Elaine, tell us a little bit about your background and tell us about your company.

Well, a little bit about my background prior to setting up the business because I kind of traded as a sole trader. Originally I used to work for a government department called the Department of Trade Industry and it specialised in when companies go into liquidation or become insolvent, then there is a fund called the National Insurance Fund, which pays out their statutory monies that they're due, such as redundancy pay, holiday pay, wages and notice pay. So I was working for the government for about 10 years and I decided that because there was a lack of promotion and I needed a new challenge, that I was going to apply for voluntary redundancy, which I did. And so from 95, that enabled me to set up the business and do what I'm doing today, basically, which is I work for liquidators or insolvency practitioners. So when the company goes into liquidation, I go out or we go out and we kind of look after the employees who've now lost their jobs. And on another side of it, we actually assist the directors as well, because it's more difficult for directors to be paid out of the National Insurance Fund, their employee status is tested. So we do kind of. Our business does overlap with employment law as well. So that's basically my background and what we do on a day to day.

And what's the name of your company?

It's called EK Employment Law Consultants Ltd. Or EKemp as a shortened version.

Okay, got it, got it. And Oliver, what's your background?

Yeah, so my background is Basically I spent 12 years working for an insolvency practice. And during that time I kind of qualified as an accountant and an insolvency practitioner, although I never actually used that qualification. And in December, this year, or last year rather, I joined EK Employment with my mum Elaine, and we kind of joined forces and obviously trying to move things forward and grow and develop the business, which is kind of what led us to cabin.

Okay, so I gotta ask, and I know it's difficult and weird because she's sitting right beside you, but what's it like to work with your mom, Oliver?

You know, it's great actually, because I think one of the problems we have with work is that we spend kind of, at least for most people, 40 hours, if not more, a week away from our families working. And I think to kind of get some of that family time back and to get paid for it is brilliant in all honesty.

Now, what about Sunday afternoon when you're sitting around having family dinner or whatever, do you talk about work or do you try to turn it off?

No, actually we never talk about work anymore when we have, you know, the family occasions on a Sunday, because we've spoke about work so much during the week, we don't feel we need to make it good.

Beautiful, beautiful. All right, well, how long have you guys been on the, on this journey with Lean? And then maybe kind of the back into the question, how did you first become aware of Lean?

Yeah, so kind of, I think it all really began in, I think seriously in March, which was when we kind of first contacted Karen, but kind of prior to that, I mean, I read quite a lot of, a lot of books and I discovered this thing called Lean eventually through reading other books. And I think actually one thing that was instrumental in that was kind of the Amazon recommended books, because you read or you buy one thing and it brings up all these other suggestions for you. And I kept coming across these books, the Toyota Way, the various different books. And at that time we were really looking for a way to try and implement and improve our systems. And this book just kept popping up. And eventually I found this one Toyota Way to Service Excellence. And because it related to services, it just seemed obviously more applicable to ourselves, but in the service sector. And we kind of read that and that kind of led us to Karen, and we've not really looked back since, have we?

So, I mean, obviously there's a lot of management methods out there and different, I don't know, schools of improvement, if you will. What was it about Lean that I don't know, appealed to you?

Well, obviously, as you mentioned, there are different kind of coaches and management methods available elsewhere, but this just seemed to kind of fit our industry. We found it, you know, quite easy, really, to put into place, relatively easy to understand. It was fairly cheap to run and it was accessible to everyone. And, you know, it created more of a team effort, which I think we were lacking before we started our coaching with Karen.

And this is actually Karen. One of the things that I think is so wonderful is that although we often don't think that Lean can apply to a small business, we think of a gigantic corporation like Toyota or some kind of multinational company. All of the ways of thinking and really looking at how we do the work, who does the work, what is it that our customers really need, all of that is absolutely, unbelievably applicable, no matter what size business you have. So, Oliver and Elaine, how many people work at ecamp?

Well, there's six of us all together. So, yeah, we are fairly small. So hopefully in the future we would be looking at expanding.

But you don't have to be a gigantic corporation. All of the things about PDCA and understanding your process and making things visual, all of those good Lean principles, practices and tools flow. They work just as well no matter how many people you have.

Exactly. Hey, Karen. So, like, how did. How does it work as far as someone reads your book and they're like, wow, this gal's pretty cool. I would like to work with her. Did Oliver and Elaine just kind of email you or give you a call or how did that work? How did you meet Oliver?

Do you want to explain what you did?

Yeah, well, kind of. So after reading the book, we were just kind of, I think one day, maybe even a Friday afternoon, and I was just kind of decided to have a look on. On Karen's website as Athens. And I noticed on there it mentioned about free consultations. And so I just thought, well, there's no harm. I thought, you know, we'll. I'll send a message via the website and. And I thought, you know, ultimately we could have a, you know, a first chat and kind of see how that went and whether there was any kind of merit in going forward. And obviously, Karen did a great job of selling the services because we went for it and we're very happy that we did.

Yes. So they sent me a note from my website. We had what I call a first help call to see what it is they need. And then we were able to create a method going forward. So we have ongoing coaching three times a week, half an hour a week, and we actually do that by FaceTime call. So we can see each other, we can hear each other, and we communicate in between as well.

And you can even go to the Gemba, right, Kara? Just turn the phone.

Absolutely. Oliver is often carrying me around the office.

Nice.

I can see what's going on.

That is so cool. So cool. So one question that just kind of popped up in my mind. So, you know, Oliver, you're out searching and Elaine, you're searching for some ideas to possibly help your business. But I'm curious, like, what was the main or what is the main problem that you're trying to solve with Lean? What's your. Why. Why are you interested in Lean?

Yeah, I think the initial need stemmed from the fact that we needed to. Or we had this perceived need that we needed to have better systems. As a small business, it's very easy to find everybody doing everything and kind of there can be a lack of kind of systems and organization. I think that was the initial attraction to Lean. And before obviously, reading any of the books, but reading the books, obviously it became. Certainly Karen's book is the first one that I read on Lean. It became apparent that obviously it was so much more than just a way of kind of standardizing work, but more way of involving the whole team and kind of giving people the opportunity to be able to kind of learn and grow together, really. So what we kind of. Or what I may have thought Lean was to begin with, it actually turned out to be much better.

Go ahead, Kerry.

Sorry. I have a question because when we first met each other, I think that you also had a client who wanted you to be able to process work, have a lead time that was much shorter than you had. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct. We looked at everything as to kind of how long it was actually taking us to deal with the individual client. And we discovered with horror that it was actually taken us 40 days from the first conversation to actually be in a position to have completed that particular work for the client. And so we set ourselves a target to try and reduce this somewhat drastically. And with the help of Liam, we actually reduced it from 40 days to seven days.

Wow. From what?

Say those numbers again from 40 days, we reduced it to seven days.

Goodness. Gracious, that's awesome.

And how long of ongoing PDCA of our work together, how long did it take you to make that reduction?

It took us realistically about four weeks really to reach that target. But we have since been able to maintain that target, so we are well on track now.

I gather your customer is pleased.

They're very, very pleased. In fact, because we've reduced it from 40 days to seven days, our customers are actually getting paid quicker so the results are faster. You know, for example, we just recently got one of our customers, I think it's around about 14,000 pound within 14 days of the initial phone call.

Now, were they curious, like what did you do? Like how have you had they asked like how have you done this? Or.

No, I mean they didn't really know that obviously previously it had taken us 40 days. So they just accepted that that was the norm for seven days. But they were very, very pleased, obviously.

Yeah. So what about kind of lessons that you've learned so far on this journey?

Yeah, well, yeah, I think there's been lots, to be honest with you. I mean one that I think often spoken about in lean is the fact that kind of solving one problem creates another, albeit often lesser problems. But I think really kind of coming to see that path, that is the path to kind of service excellence, as Karen would say, because it's in service, in a dealing with the problems that you're able to kind of move forward. And so I think it's kind of seeing problems as opportunities rather than something annoying, which is kind of, I think the mindset, you know, the pre lean mindset if you like. And I think really there was another lesson has been again that kind of leans a mindset, I find so far more than anything else. I know there's lots of tools and principles, but I think Karen tries to instill in us that kind of a lean way of thinking, really, really creative thinking and just looking at problems from kind of in new ways and trying to find, you know, understand the problems better and trying to find different solutions rather than the kind of tried and tested and things that are kind of unique to our situation, if you like.

So let's talk a little bit about, you know, everything's great and you guys have all this awesome lead time reduction and everything's good. Right? But I'm sure there's been a few challenges and I'm curious also, before we get into challenges, you're a team of seven, so two of the seven are obviously fully on board and probably have been since day one or Maybe I shouldn't assume that. I don't know. Oliver, you sound like you were on board. How has everybody else been wrapping their arms around lean? Has everybody just jump on the lean train straight away or has there been any, I don't know, change management required?

Well, obviously quite a few of the staff found it a little bit of a struggle at first coming to terms with all the new changes. For example, I've got one member of staff, Sarah, who's been with me around about 12 years, and so she was quite set in her ways as to the way she kind of went about working on a daily basis. So all of a sudden we've introduced all these new changes and she did get a little bit stressed at the beginning, but we did spend a lot of time coaching her and, you know, sitting next to her most of the day, each and every day, until she quite likes the ideas that we've come up with. Now, she likes lean and, yes, she's all for it now and she's got over her anxiety.

Nice, nice. All right, well, what about the challenges? Have there been any bumps in the road?

Yeah, I think, obviously sometimes it can be easy to make a change or to imagine a new change that you'd like to bring into existence, but I think often it's one thing to make the change. I think it's a lot harder to kind of standardise that and for it to become a new norm. And so I think that the biggest that really has been our big challenge, really, is not only to make the change, but to maintain it. But obviously one of the main benefits of having a coach is that they can kind of. They're always kind of one step ahead and they can kind of guide you in the right way. And obviously recognising a problem such as that one, Karen introduced us to things like job instruction, which really has been fantastic for us in terms of actually breaking down jobs and obviously transferring the knowledge as well to the rest of the team. So I think that's probably been the one big challenge. And aside, obviously, from the initial kind of resistance, if you like, to change, which I think now, because people have seen the results and how it's ultimately how it's benefited the client, I think that's kind of what's brought people on board and the fact that they now realise that they are able to adapt to change, because I think people can be scared, obviously people are scared, including ourselves, change. But I think certainly once you kind of prove to yourself that you can adapt and you can change, often for the Better then I think it gives you the confidence to keep doing that going forward.

Very good. So, Karen, let's talk a little bit about virtual coaching. And then I want to get Oliver and Elaine's take on it as well. But just kind of walk us through how that works.

Sure, absolutely. So one of the things that I do in virtual coaching is that we use technology, FaceTime or Skype, in which I can see the person or people in this case, because, you know, of course, I coach Oliver and Elaine together. I can see them, and that way I can see their body language. I can see their expression. We meet at least three times a week for a very short amount of time, so half an hour, and that way we can set our target conditions and we can work and we can meet. And I can see how people are progressing as well. After each coaching session, I have the people that I'm coaching send me by email their reflections and their notes from their journal and also the progress that they're making. So people who are learning build up the discipline that's actually needed for making any kind of change. And using lean principles, practices, and tools as well, they build up the stamina. So as Oliver and Elaine will know, as a coach, one of the things that I am always working on is making sure that people are a little bit uncomfortable, because unless we're uncomfortable, then we're not going to learn. So I can see very easily in our coaching sessions, do people look uncomfortable? Do they sound uncomfortable? And then we go through the cycles, we're uncomfortable because we're learning.

Give me an example. Give me an example, Karen, of how you would make Oliver and Elaine uncomfortable.

Well, I will actually ask them to answer that, but I will say I might ask some questions, right, about what's happening or why we're doing something, some way, or why we're thinking about something. Oliver Delaine, do you have an example of something that might make you uncomfortable in coaching?

I think. Well, the one thing is to be fair, because Obviously we use FaceTime. Karen can kind of see what's going on around the office, and she can spot things that might kind of be out of place. And so there was one occasion where she saw some kind of some boxes and files that are kind of on the floor in the office. And she asked us about those and why they were there. And we couldn't actually give a good answer because there was no reason for them to be there. And so that kind of initiated an office tidy up, if you like. And there was some 5s. And I suppose the One great thing with Karen is that if you say you're going to do something, she'll kind of see to it that you do do it. And so I think she does definitely give us that discipline. And I think there's one occasion where I did get scolded for the do with the boxes, the finals, because they stayed there a bit longer than they should have. Although we did eventually do it. But yeah, she definitely holds us accountable, which is great.

Yes. As a coach, it's my responsibility to make sure that my learners are learning right. And so if I see that something is not progressing in this case in the time that it should be, that's my obligation to ask why and to help my learner overcome whatever is preventing them from being able to reach their target. So if you go to ECAMP now, they have the most fabulous tidy 5s office, so that actually one can see when work is not being completed. So Oliver and Elaine, can you tell us now about your priority lane and how we know that the priority work is being completed?

Yeah, so essentially we implemented a visual management system which kind of uses the files that house each individual client's work themselves. So we have a color scheme, so different colors for the different stages of the process. And kind of each file will have stickers on which will on kind of the, on the outside of the spine of the file if you like. So on the outside we can see things like who the client is when he entered that process. Next time we need to work on the file the reason it's there. So the files kind of speak to us which make it really easy to identify what and when it needs to be done. And so to kind of take that a step further, we introduced a priority lane. And so each day essentially we can pick out the files that are due to be worked on that day and we can put them in the appropriate person's lane. And that kind of does two things. It allows that person, that person basically picks the file from the left hand side so they don't need to think about kind of sequencing or scheduling of the work. Which I do think in kind of in knowledge work and in services is well, more than half the battle really deciding when there's so many things that can be done at any given moment in time, deciding which one that you should be working on. And we're kind of the priority lane. The files kind of go into there and are picked on a kind of five fold basis. So the latest one will always go to the right and the one to work on next will always be picked from the left. And that, as I say, it kind of eliminates that problem for the person doing the work because they can see what they need to do next, freeing up really their mental resources to do the work rather than thinking about what to do. And it's also a great indicator for kind of, for us and my mum more specifically to see kind of whether or not that person's on track and whether that person, are they on target, are they behind target for that day? And really, you know, tells us when somebody needs to step in and support that person. Because I think once somebody gets behind, if it's left that way, then obviously it snowballs, you know, from one day to the next. And so I think it's really facilitated a much better kind of team effort, everybody to kind of view the work not as their work, but really the customer's work. And ultimately it doesn't matter who does it, as long as it gets done in the way that it should be done and obviously to deadline.

So I'm going to drop an interesting question on you. Would you be open to sharing some pictures and whatnot of this? Because I'm actually giving a talk on Wednesday to a customer and one of the things they want to. To explore or have me explore is what good looks like. And one of the examples they were requesting is some visual management and how are we knowing what's supposed to be done and when it's supposed to be done? I was thinking what Oliver's describing is exactly what I need to talk about on Wednesday. So if you're open, I would love to include you in my talk on Wednesday.

Yeah, yeah, you're more than welcome. We can definitely send you some photos. In fact, we've been taking lots of photos ourselves, so we're getting quite used to doing these people now. So, yeah, if it's going to happen. Yeah, definitely.

Awesome, awesome. So, last question I have for this section and we'll jump into the reflection section. Are there any limitations? And I want both of you, all three parties here to answer this question, but are there any limitations to this virtual coaching technique? Karen, why don't you go first?

I actually don't really think that there are. And the reason that I don't think that there are is just like any other process that we're working on, when we need to figure out how to do something, we just simply figure out how to do it. Technology is wonderful. There's many things that I can say. I probably don't know how to use it as well as possible. But we'll figure that out. And as the world gets smaller, I will say that for me, it's really a joy and a privilege to be able to serve people all over the world with remote coaching.

Yeah. One thing that I would think is if you were not. If you weren't able to have a camera and it was only voice, I think that would be limiting. But the fact that you have a camera turned on and you can literally go to Gemba with them and say, spin to your left, spin to your right, and you can see everything they're seeing. I agree. I'm just not sure. Yeah, you can't pick anything up. But as a coach, you shouldn't do that anyhow, right?

Yes, that's exactly it. And I'm telling you, as I'm sitting, I'm saying to them, what's that pile of stuff in the background? Like, what is that on the floor? Right. So I can see perfectly well and ask the same questions I would ask if I was in Gemba.

Exactly, exactly. Well, Oliver and Elaine, what do you think? Have you seen any limitations?

I think there is possibly only one perceived limitation. That obviously is the quite big time difference. I think we're about eight hours in time difference. But I think because of Karen's flexibility and the fact that she can actually contact us from almost anywhere, even if she's on the road, then we certainly overcome that perceived limitation.

Very good. Very good. All right. Well, we could talk all day about virtual coaching, but perhaps we'll have you guys back on and, I don't know, six months, and you guys can share some greater success stories. It's been really fun. So let's go ahead and jump into reflection section. So this first question is an oldie but goodie. So we spend a lot of time within Lean talking about kind of those two pillars, one being continuous improvement. The tools, the things that we can touch and do. That's kind of easy to define what that is. But respect for people can be a little bit more difficult to, I don't know, wrap your arms around. So I'm curious, what does respect for people mean to you guys?

Well, I mean, to us, you know, to be able to help people to, you know, think for themselves, but at the same time, to be able to work as part of a team. That's what respect for people means to us.

Yeah. And I think. Yeah, I think ultimately, you know, giving people both the kind of independence and interdependence, because I think obviously a lot of times these days, you know, kind of modern Managers are promoted because they're good at doing, and therefore, that tends to be the management style insofar as they'll tell people the answers. And I think that just creates a dependency in people. So I think one of the things we're conscious of now is the need to really give people ability to think for themselves about a situation. You know, come up with a. You know, understand the problem and think of a solution for themselves, perhaps before they seek an answer from somebody else. And really for us is to try and give more questions and answers, perhaps. But rather than just leaving people on their own, obviously there's the interdependence element as well, which really is obviously about supporting the person. So giving the independence to think, but making sure that person supported and feels part of a team, which I think comes from a unifying vision. And that's one of the first things that Karen had us work on, really, was to come up with a vision of service excellence. And that's where we came up with kind of helping our clients today for a brighter tomorrow. And so I think that really helps people see how they fit into the whole as well.

Karen, I know you've answered this question before on a previous episode, but do you have any thoughts that you want to share?

Well, I really want to say that when I hear the definitions and the way that Oliver and Elaine define respect for people, that really is my definition. Every single person has an unbelievable potential to be creative and to actually serve others. And as coaches and as managers, we have an obligation to help those people reach their potential and supporting them, challenging them, nurturing them, that's the best thing that we can do. So I'm unbelievably proud of Oliver and Elaine. I tell them all of the time they're doing wonderful work to serve their customers, and I cannot think of a more respectful way for them to be doing it.

Nice. Nice. So, Oliver and Elaine, we've talked a lot about success today, but I'm curious if there's been an experiment or a project that didn't quite turn out as you planned, and then, if so, what did you learn?

Trying to think of what it comes like. I mean, to be fair, there's been many, really, because that's part of the way, obviously, Karen teaches. We complete something called an obstacle removal template. And so every time we see there's a problem or that's kind of generally, we'll set a challenge, and then we'll identify kind of our target condition, and then we'll look at what kind of obstacles are preventing us from. From achieving that target. And I've probably actually got many obstacle removal templates in the file, actually, that I could pull out and tell you turned out different to the way that we expected. But I think really, it's just really not to be too downhearted when that happens, but just to come to expect that we actually know a lot less than we think we know. And every time we're wrong, that means we've learned something new, which we now see as a good thing, whereas perhaps in the past we might have seen that as a negative.

Yeah. I think the thing I love about Toyota Kata is when you do run the experiment, right, to try to overcome that obstacle, and you say, well, what do you think is going to happen? Well, I think X, Y and Z. And then a week later we come back and say, well, what actually happened? A, B and C. It's like, interesting, you know, instead of saying, oh, it didn't. XYZ didn't happen, but ABC did. And it's interesting because of this. So I think it's a beautiful way to, I don't know, to just look at problems with a different lens. It's just learning, not failure or not success. It's just constant learning, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's it. And ultimately, that's the enjoyable part of the journey, really, is that every day, essentially, we're learning something new. And, you know, I think that's great. It's great for us and it's great for the team.

So what are you guys most proud of as it relates to this journey with Lean that you're. That you've been on?

I'm kind of proud of the way, obviously, the staff have handled this. You know, we've now got a really good team out there, and all the things, the new things that we've tried and are still trying have worked. And I feel so proud that in such a short space of time of knowing, Karen, that how kind of how better our service has become and it's reflected because now we do get a lot of thank you letters from our clients. So we do know that they are really pleased with our service. So I just think Lean has helped the business tremendously and that we're actually moving forward in the right direction now.

So this next question, I already know the answer, so I'm going to kind of change it a little bit. What's the best book that you've. All that you've read is obviously Karad's book. So that aside, are there any other books that you've probably that you've explored or read or are exploring that might add value to our listeners.

Yeah, I mean, I'm currently reading Toyota, so obviously. Well, needless to say, Karen's book was a kind of catalyst for the whole thing, so that's kind of on a kind of pedestal on its own thereafter. I've read a lot of Lean books myself this year, and, I mean, I think I'm currently reading Toyota Talent, which so far has been great. And it's really helping to kind of, you know, better understand the, you know, essentially how to. How to coach people, which is kind of reinforcing what, you know, Karen's shown us each and every. Each and every session. In addition to that, I think I kind of like anything that's written by Jim Womack and Dan Jones. So Lean Thinking or Lean Solutions, I found both of those to be great.

Elaine, do you have any. Are you a voracious reader?

Well, actually, I've not done much reading, but that's obviously the next thing that I'll be doing, listening to more podcasts and, you know, starting to have a good read of the Lean books. But what I would like to say, even though I've not kind of read as many books as Oliver, I think the fact that we've had this coaching from Karen, it's made me become quite familiar with the concept anyway, even though I've not admittedly picked up a book yet.

Well, you got one of the best authors coaching you, so I guess you're in pretty good shape. All right, Karen, what about you? What books are you reading these days?

I actually, the book that really I've enjoyed the most and has really impacted my thinking is the Book of Joy, and that's by the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu. And when we think about a wider being in the world and how we can use all of the creativity and respect for people in ways that we can improve, how can we apply that and think about how this all actually makes a better world? Because honestly, Elaine and Oliver and their team, they're a family business, and as they said before, you know, we spend 40 hours or more a week, and when we learn all of these things, we learn how to solve problems, and we can take that out to our families, we can take that out to our communities, and we can take that out to solve all of the many problems in the wider world. So really expand our thinking and use this for all kinds of different.

Good.

Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, last question. And I guess, well, all three of you could answer if you'd like, but for sure. Oliver and Elaine, curious if there's one knowledge or skill area that you. That you really feel, I don't know, charged up to kind of go after next to explore, to learn about, you know, as it pertains to lean. Can you think of anything?

Yeah, I think for myself, certainly it's becoming a better listener, which I think listening to previous episodes in the past, I think many people will have said, but I think that's, I think perhaps active listening survivors. It's one thing to kind of sit there and listen while somebody's talking, but obviously quite often you can find yourself slipping into thinking about the response without truly hearing the words of the other person. So I think from my point of view, it's really just spending really trying to become a much better listener, you.

Know, who's, I think perhaps the best at that. Karen, I don't know if you. I know you know, and you probably would agree is Brandon Brown. This guy. Oh, my gosh. So this guy. I don't know if you've heard the podcast that we've done with him, Oliver and Karen, but if not, you need to go back and listen to it. But he's famous for. You'll be talking to him and then you finish, and then all of a sudden he's just looking at you and he's not saying anything, and you're like, what's going on? And then he answers, but he's like, he's learned to ponder or have silence, you know, before he responds, like he really thinks about it. And I'm like, what a beautiful way to behave. And I wish I could do that, you know, but being okay with silence, I think Brandon would say, and goodness gracious, that's. That's pretty powerful.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, good stuff. Hey, how can people connect with you? Oliver and Elaine and also Karen. How can people connect with you?

Well, people can contact us through LinkedIn and we do try and play a very active part these days on LinkedIn, as I'm sure that Kara agrees with.

Okay. Yeah. And we'll link to that in the show notes what people can find@gembapodcast.com and then you'll look for episode 172. So we'll link to both Oliver and Elaine and Karen. What's the best way for folks to.

Get you best way for people to contact me is either through my website, karenrossconsulting.com or send me an email at karenaranrossconsulting.

And it's K A R Y, N correct.

That is correct.

All right, very good. Karen, where's the next keynote?

Well, the next keynote is going to be in Argentina.

Whoa.

I'll be there a couple of days in August with Jeff and as well. Then it will be at the European Lean Educator Conference, and that is in November in the Netherlands.

Wow. Getting all over the place. All right, very good. Well, you can Netherlands. Just swing by the UK and say hello to Oliver and Elaine.

I am looking forward to seeing them.

We may even pay her a visit yet.

Nice.

Yep.

Very good, Very good. All right. Well, hey, this has been so much fun. A great way to Monday morning here for me, and really, it's a great way to start the week. So thank you all for coming on and I'm proud of us for fighting through all those early technical hurdles, and I think we produced a nice show here.

Thank you very much. It's been great to be on.

Yeah. Thank you to you both.

Y' all. Take care.

Thank you.

Bye.

Okay, bye. Bye.

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