GA 184 | How to Become a Better Problem Solver with Kelly Moore

You're listening to episode 184 with Kelly Moore.

Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Perera.

Hey there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy Podcast. As always, this is. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day and your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now, today, I'm excited to welcome my friend Kelly Moore to the show. Now, Kelly, I've known Kelly for, gosh, many, many years. We kind of talk about how we first came to meet one another, and Kelly and her company have been longtime subscribers to Gemba Academy. So that's how we've gotten to know her over the years. And Kelly is, as you're going to hear, one of the most humble, kind Lean thinkers that you're ever going to meet. Kelly is constantly making comments like, you know, how much more they have to learn and how much better they need to be. And I think that's what really makes Kelly one of my favorite Lean thinkers, is that she knows that we're never done learning here within Lean. But I got to tell you, Kelly, Kelly and her organization are doing some amazing work. And while she would never admit it, they're doing some really, really good stuff. And I'm always excited to talk to her to hear what they're up to. Now, the theme of today's show is really problem solving. And so we're going to spend quite a bit of time kind of talking about Kelly's journey with problem solving, talking about things such as sort of the Toyota Kata approach or PDCA approach that Kelly and her organization are practicing. And we really kind of dig into some of, I don't know, we get a little bit geeky with some of the Kata stuff and in particular talking about how difficult it can be to kind of set that target condition. And we'll get into much more at. Into the show. But again, I always love catching up with Kelly and learning from her and really being inspired by her. Now, I will mention that we were using, or I was using a slightly different audio setup. We were shooting videos in our. On our main studio. And so I kind of, I had.

To, oh, I had to kind of.

Rig some things up a little bit, and so the audio is not quite as the same as you're used to. So I do apologize for that. But I still think the show is.

Is great, and I'm excited for you to hear.

Show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com. just look for episode 184. That's 1-84-again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode one and 84.

Okay, enough from me.

Let's get to the show.

All right, Kelly, well, thanks for coming on to the show. Where are you calling in from?

Morning, Ron? I am in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. We're just outside of that.

Mm. All right. You know, I was trying to think, how long have we known each other, Kelly? It's been several years, I think, since you guys came on board with Gemba Academy. Do you remember?

I think so. I think it's been around 2007.

Yeah.

I was going to ask Elaine. I've been emailing her about a question I meant to ask her. Where were we in the lineup of your customers? Because I believe we had to be in somewhere in that initial batch.

Oh, yeah, I definitely think you were. I definitely think you were. So. Well, hey, Kelly, thanks for coming on. As you know, I know you listen to the show and have for many years. So you know the draw. I didn't need to tell you. We like to begin with our guest sharing a quote or two. I know you're a big quote person, so do you have one that you want to throw out there?

I do. I culled it down just for you.

Okay.

So I actually have this one on my whiteboard. So it's not one that I just picked for you, but it is one that speaks to me, and it's a quote from some lyrics, so I'll see if you recognize the song.

Okay.

I'm starting with the man in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his ways.

Michael Jackson.

That is Michael Jackson. Man in the Mirror song.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why do you like that?

Well, there's the. There's the literal piece of it. As, you know, I'm kind of a go ahead, charge ahead person. And so one. It reminds me I need to reflect because I have to first look at the person. But what it really says is if I'm modeling the way, then I have to be conscious of adapting changes myself. I'm not one that's. I don't necessarily like to change either. So I need to be practicing What I preach.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a great one. That's a great one. All right, Kelly, well, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about your background, maybe how you first got started with all this continuous improvement stuff that we, that we, we practice and then tell folks what you're up to these days.

Well, by training, I'm a synthetic organic chemist. I work at a, the chemical manufacturing site. And around 2006, 2007, our site was asked to become a lean manufacturing site. And at the time my management didn't really understand what that meant. I mean it was a directive that was given to us and they asked me if I would help lead the, at the time, the team that was if they thought of it as a program, I believe at that time. And, and you know, could I help lead the way? It was supposed to only be about an 18 month gig, taking up maybe about 40% of my time. I think that was the way they described it. And that was around 2007 and so that it rolled into becoming my full time job. And now I help the company Syngenta that I work for, I help them in North America. I have different sites that I support in their operational excellence transformation and I work with practitioners at those sites that are on their own continuous improvement journey and supporting them to help them through the principles, methodologies and tools. So that's what I do.

Cool.

Not so much chemistry anymore.

Yeah, yeah, chemistry, goodness gracious, that's some tough stuff. So, all right, well, let's kind of jump in. Kind of the theme that we're going to explore today, Kelly, is just problem solving. And obviously it's a very big kind of vague topic. So we're going to kind of drill in and, and see where the conversation goes. But the first question I have for you is just as it relates to problem solving, what have you observed or possibly even used as a problem solving methodology or how have you gone about it? So.

What I see in organizations, and I don't get the opportunity very much to benchmark the companies that I would consider really mature on their lean opex, whatever continuous improvement journey that they're on, I don't have the opportunity to see very many of those companies. So the companies that I am seeing, it appears that yes, they're recognizing that problem solvers are important and they're beginning to teach them the tools of problem solving. And so we're, my company, other companies, we're developing problem solvers to the end of people that solve problems.

So now, so obviously there's a bunch of different ways to go about problem solving. You know, there's kind of the eight step practical problem solving methodology. There's, you know, what some folks would call a three thinking, which is sort of, to me, PDCA kind of thing. But talk about the different types. I mean, obviously there's six sigma kind of dmaic. So there's a number of different ways to go about problem solving. What have you seen out there that that's interesting to you, that you've tried, maybe struggled with, talk about that, that end of it, the mechanics, if you will.

Well, I've seen all of them.

Yeah.

Right. I mean, in terms of. If you're looking at them just as tools, as just points of methodologies, then I see all of them and all of them being used. What I tend to use the most. We do a lot of five whys on the small problems and the way that our company or my site at least looks at it, I call it an A3 light. And so we're not just doing the five whys, but we're trying to touch on some of the elements of the A3 thinking. So the eight step methodology, there would be elements. If you were to see one of our five whys, there would be a few elements that aren't just, just asking why. And we work with, I work with different groups or different people to try to hone their skills because I mean a lot of people believe five whys are easy, but just like everything, it's one of those that are simple but not necessarily easy. We do use a three and trying to skill up some people in a three, that one's hard. We don't have the coaches to help develop the people. I think that's one of our problems.

Yeah.

So what do you say that you don't have the coaches and a three is hard. Tell me more, what do you mean by that?

Well, the way that I believe that a threes are supposed to be used, the way that I was taught and I was fortunate enough that Tracy Richardson was my instructor.

That's a good instructor.

Yeah. I mean if you're going to do a three, that's a pretty.

That's about as good as.

You know, and so you don't be. You're not doing an A3 by yourself.

Right.

That you have someone that you're balancing your ideas, that's challenging your thoughts. And where we are in our maturity, it's difficult to find the people that have the skills to challenge the learner as they're doing their A3.s. And the same thing with the PDCA cycles. I don't use the term Toyota kata. I want people to realize exactly what it is that we're learning. What are we practicing? And so we're practicing PDCA cycles, and that's what we call it. And on our site, we have a lot of success with that. And on the different sites I support.

Yeah, yeah.

But again, it's all about the coach.

Yeah, no, exactly. You know, I think the. In my opinion, like, whether it's any. Whether it's an 83, you know, document or kata storyboard or whatever it is, I think a lot of times we have the tendency to fall into the. The trap that it's about the piece of paper, when in fact, it's not about the piece of paper. It's about that thing. It's about the thinking behind what is documented with a story that is documented on the paper. The paper is just a way to tell your story. But, yeah, to your point, it's the. It is the coaching. It is the. The mentoring. It is the exploration of the problem. That is the. That is the power. So why do you think so many. Is it the books that are written? Is it, I don't know, the conferences or the seminars that we go to that people fall into the trap that, you know, like I would say one of the most common questions we get on A3 is, do you have an A3 template? And I'm like, I. I don't know, maybe a piece of paper. Try that. Right? Just grab a piece of paper. You know, so. So why is it that we want to. That we want a template that we want. We want to know how big the. The box for the background should be. Right. You know, why do you think that is?

Well, I think as learners and when you're learning the process to understand the type of information that you're. The form helps with that, or a form helps to describe. What information are you looking for? What's your next step of your process? Oh, I got to get my background information. I need to understand my target and my goals. And. Okay. It's kind of the first box of your information. And I'm hoping that any practitioner that I have coached would be laughing because I like. You would say, get your pencil and blank sheet of paper.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's all about the flow of information and not filling out the form, the boxes that are on the piece of paper. So, you know, it's easy to. And I hate to say it, but it's easy to pencil with a form and you can look like you've completed a problem. But have you really? Yeah, perhaps, maybe you have all the information there.

So talk about your journey then with, with your organization and maybe talk about, you know, so you've, you've observed other organizations and you've, you've seen how they've gone about it. You've, you know, you've gone to great training and you've watched videos and so forth. But what led to a reflection that perhaps the, the approach that you guys began with or even are currently using is maybe, maybe it's a little different than what other folks are using. If in fact it is different.

Yeah, and that's, I guess that's what I'm struggling with. Is it different or are we just on a different point on the curve? That's really, I guess, a question that I have for you as we get to it. But I read, I read a lot and I read a number of books in quick succession and it made me wonder if our approach and the approach that I've observed of other companies, is it the same approach that some of these more mature companies have? And so I read Michael Ballet's Lead with Lean, not the Lead with Respect one, but Lead with Lean, the Work of Management with Jim Lancaster, and then Tracy and Ernie's book, the Toyota Engagement Equation. There might have been another one in there, not sure. But in that they began describing how they're growing people and the tools that they're using to grow people are our methodologies of problem solving. And it made me reflect on how I was using problem solving and that was beginning to teach people the methodologies of problem solving with an end result of problem solving.

So are you, are you conflicted on. Are you. Sounds odd. Are you too focused on problem solving and not focused enough on people development? Is that what you're getting?

Well, I wonder, is it, is it that.

Are they different or are they the same?

You know, this is the. One of the questions that keeps me up at night because in terms of an outcome, it seems as though the outcome is going to be the same that we have problem solvers. But in one instance, if I begin splitting it up, it seems like we just have a collection of problem solvers. And in the more mature companies, it looks like their culture of problem solving leads more to a learning environment.

Yeah, that's interesting. So, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about the learning organization. Right. Versus a problem solving organization. And are they, are they one in the same or are they different?

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

It's pretty deep, really, if you think about it. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. What do you think?

Well, it's, you know, I've thought a lot about this and I don't know the answer, but it seems as though if we're getting a collection of problem solvers, then again, we're just focused on a result. And so it's about the problem solution and maybe not as much about the how of getting that solution. And if we go back to managing to learn the John Shook book, then you would see the role of the coach then really, really making the learner go through different reflections wasn't just about getting solutions. It was really about understanding the problem. And then how can we apply what we learn to other parts of the organization and really leverage that learning?

You know, something that just went through my mind. So I coach a couple of my kids soccer teams. You know, I have coached teams over the years, and I'm coaching my older daughter's team right now to under 16. So, you know, girls are 14, 15 years old. And so they're old enough now that, you know, they've played for a while and won a lot of games, lost a lot of games, you know, sort of thing like that. And I've got to the point now to where I really, I really believe that it isn't about did we win or did we lose? It is about did we, did we do our best? Did we play and conduct ourselves with character? And if we can answer yes to both of those things, that we did our best and we played with high character, then we've won, no matter the result. And I almost believe that that's what we need to be thinking about as continuous improvement practitioners. Have we done our very best? Sure. Character, but being ethical and different things like that. And I think that is where the respect for people side in, because I think you probably could have this incredible problem solving machine. Right. Of angry robots. Right. And I don't think that that's the spirit. And I know that's not what you do, Kelly. I mean, you don't give yourself enough credit, but you definitely conduct yourself with very, very high character. I know I've known you for years and so. But I think that's what it is. And the fact that you. That you stay up at night and that you worry about this, to me, says that you are. You are conducting yourself with character. And the folks that you're mentoring more than likely do as well. So all that to say is I think it does matter how we go about it, I think it is. The process is far more important than the results. But kind of Paul Akers approach, right? It's like if you take care of the little things and you do them each and every day, the results are going to be there. But if you, if you wake up thinking about results, I think that's where problems could, could come in. I don't know.

That's my take.

What do you think?

I think so. I, that's. That is what I keep falling back to. I mean, it's very important that we are achieving results there. I mean, we don't. I tell almost anybody that will listen, we don't do opex, we don't do lean just to do lean. That's not our objective. It's to enable our companies to do better things. We're the enabler that allows that to happen. So we have to get results, but we have to be very conscious of how we achieved them so that we're skilling people up in the right behaviors so they can go on and do great things for us.

Yeah, it's kind of like, and we've talked about this on the show before and written articles and so forth that, you know, a lot of we talk about. Lean is all about the people. And it is, it is all about the people. But at the same time, you've got to know some tools, right? You've got to know how to do some things technically. So you've got to balance it, right? That's what life is. It's balance. And I don't know. And so it almost feels like the Lean movement comes in waves. You know, right now we're on a wave of, you know, kind of Toyota Kata style, you know, methodologies is very important, very, very popular, and conferences dedicated to it now. And it's great stuff, right? We practice it ourselves here, but, you know, in a couple years, something else will come out, right? And then we're on to the next wave. But at the end of the day, the one thing that's consistent is that if you're constantly developing people and you care about people, then I think you're on the right track.

I think so, yeah.

So what's next for you with your journey and problem solving? I mean, what's your next plan?

So we are using the PDCA cycle, the Toyota Cotta, and with that we're growing, trying to grow coaches. It's really, really where we are. And I believe that if we can skill up our coaches a little bit more so that now, whenever anyone does Have a problem and some sort of root cause investigation, whatever the methodology is chosen is done, then it's not just about the results. It's not just about us tracking that our action items are done. But having someone challenge, well, did your action actually help improve the process?

How are you going about developing coaches? Do you have them assume the role of the learner initially while you coach them so they can learn that side of the, say, the cotton methodology or, or how are you going about it?

A little bit of both. We, we tried to, to get a number of teams going where I was doing some of the coaches. And it's not just me, there's other people in my organization.

Sure, sure.

I don't want to.

Oh, Rhonda's out there.

I like it. Yeah, Rhonda's out there getting after. I mean, I mean there's, there's a host of people, so it's not, I don't want to make it sound just me, but that at my site then we do have different teams and in the beginning it was going around and essentially me trying to be a coach. But one of the things of coach is they have to know a little bit about the process that they're overseeing. And I'm not that smart to know all these things. And so we began by bringing then the coaches and so I was more trying to coach the coaches. They were trying to coach the learners. And it took a number of cycles and we have a, we have a few and we're trying to build that now. So it's a slow process, but I think that we are getting, we're getting depth. We're not just trying to train up a whole bunch of people and just send them out. We want to, we're trying to do this right.

So as a quick review for folks who might not be familiar with the Toyota Kata methodology or, or PDCA methodology, let's call it that, you know, we kind of start with. And I'm giving this over you because I want to ask you a question here, Kelly. But we start with that challenge, you know, like maybe a 12 month challenge, something a pretty big achievement that we want to get after. Then we assess our actual condition. Where are we right now? Then we kind of take a step back and say, all right, where can we be in a, you know, in a few weeks or a month, so called target condition.

And then we identify some obstacles that.

Are in our way, right. As on our way to that target condition. And then we start chipping away at those obstacles and then hopefully eventually achieve that target condition and then set a new target condition. Right. And we keep repeating that process. So my question for you, Kelly, is how do you guys go about that first step of setting that challenge? Do you do it at kind of a. Do you focus that kind of department level, company level, you know what I'm saying? Like, how do you. Because we've struggled with that a little bit even here internally at Gemba Academy.

As we practice it, when I'm sitting down with the learner, the coach, and we typically bring in the senior manager in our first meeting and we're trying to. And we've warned the senior manager, hey, we're going to be asking for a challenge from you. So begin looking at what's your biggest need. And between the learner, the coach and that senior leader, then we're kind of roughing out the challenge. But the challenge is tied to our site objective. The site objectives are tied to the broader business company objectives. And so we're counting on a senior leader to come in with the knowledge that they're going to give us the enterprise alignment that we need so that we're just not solving any problem. I always say that all problems are not created equal, so we're trying to choose the right one.

Okay, so let's say you get the challenge, then you kind of. You think on that for a little bit, reflect on that. And then eventually we got. We kind of assess our actual condition, then we get to that target condition. And that's also. Can be very difficult. I've experienced. How do you go about setting that maybe that initial targeting condition, like something that you want to achieve in a matter of a few weeks or a month or something like that. What's your process for that?

You are right. It is a hard one to wrangle down. The trick, it seems, is not biting off too much. And so for us, no more than three months we're looking for. What do we think we can achieve in three months? Do we have any burning crisis right now where regardless of any other target condition, there's something that just needs to be fixed. If that's it, then that's taking precedent. And if we really don't have any of that, then I'm working with the learner and trying to get them to see a connection between a target condition and a challenge and not go for the whole big jump in one step, but to try to break it down. And it's a process and sometimes we come up with really bad ones.

Oh, man. You know, hey, truth, man. We, we, I think it was, I think I did a podcast on. It was coaching a sales team and going through this process and we were, you know, a few weeks into kind of reflecting on, you know, you know, each week coming back for another coaching cycle. And, and just the, the, the vibe was not good. And, and finally I said, you know, do we have the right target condition? And in fact, we didn't. And that's what the funk was. They knew it wasn't the correct target condition and it wasn't done in a bad way or a deceptive way or anything like that. They weren't doing it. But eventually we came to discover that we had it wrong. And once we realigned that target condition, then we took off with like rocket fuel, you know, um, but gosh, man, getting that target condition correct and, and with the right alignment is, is very challenging.

Um, it is really hard, is so difficult. I tell people, look, we're going to schedule an hour and a half meeting. They're like, why? You know, we just have to come up with a target condition. Yeah, yeah, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. But, you know, once you do get it and then you start going after those obstacles, that's when the real fun starts. Right? Is now we're experimenting and we're getting after stuff and we're. Now we're practicing problem solving. Right. But yeah, good stuff, good stuff. So what last question I have for this section, Kelly, before we get to reflection, the reflection section is say someone's just kind of getting started with all this lean stuff, or perhaps they've been after. Been after it for a year or so and they really want to get better at the problem solving aspect of, of the, of the movement, for lack of a better word. What advice do you have for them?

Well, that's a tough one. If they figure that out, I wish they'd give me a call.

Yeah.

Really?

I mean, should they, you know, is it, is it just get in there and try it or maybe learn a little bit, read a few books, watch a few videos.

What do you.

Well, I think they should be learning, whether they're learning via video or some books. I mean, just to get some basics. And as you said before, it's very difficult to teach people something if you're not at least a little bit familiar with the methodology yourself. The PDCA methodology is because Mike Rother has done such a nice job of laying it out and there's so much information out there is the easiest to follow. And I'm not certain though, that if you're in a Reactive mode of problem solving versus that proactive continuous improvement mode that you would have the skills to begin to figure out, well, why didn't my experiment work? I mean, at times you're almost having to do a little bit of a 5 why just to figure out, well, what went wrong. And I guess I would start with five whys if I was just starting out. And that's typically where I start, people.

Yeah, we actually have a podcast coming out. Gosh, I record so many podcasts, I'm not even sure which one's been released. But I actually interviewed John, John Miller, my business partner. Maybe it comes out this week. But we, it was focused on. On 5Y. And so we really kind of dig dug into the whole 5Y concept. And something that he told me that I didn't know was that the original kind of Japanese is, is more closer. Instead of 5Y, it's more like YY. So it's not necessarily, as, you know, it doesn't have to be five Y's, right. It can be, you know, three. It could be 15, but more like he, he, he used the analogy of how we talk about a faucet kind of drip, drip, you know, 5, 5Y. It's like, why? Why? And so it's that thinking that, that, that, that cyclical thinking of asking why. That's the power of it. But, but yeah, 5Y is, is very difficult as well. Right. To do correctly. And, you know, three teams could do the. On the same problem and come up with, you know, three totally different.

Potential causes.

Yeah, yeah. And on all three of them might be. There may be truth in all of them. Right.

So might be.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And at some point, as you're going down, ours are most often trees. We don't, we must not be skilled enough because ours are seldom just a linear.

Yeah.

One branch going down. But at some point, it seems the question shifts rather than just a straight why. But you have to begin really focusing on why is this a problem.

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes we have to slip in the whole how and that type of thinking as well, so. Well, good stuff. Good stuff. All right, Kelly. Well, we could talk about problem solving all day, but sake of time here. Let's jump into the reflection section. And you know, this first one is a old ebay goody is with those two pillars of continuous improvement, or lean, if you will, the first pillar being continuous improvement, the tools, the things that we can touch and do. But that second pillar is sometimes a little bit harder to wrap our arms around. Respect for people. So I'm curious, what does respect for people mean to you, Kelly?

You know, that's a very tough one to answer. You've had how many podcasts thus far, and you've had some terrific answers.

Yeah.

So I agree with almost everything everyone else has already said.

Yeah.

And building past just the oh, we need to be practicing the golden rule kind of an answer. I like the way the Shingo model begins to describe it when they're talking about respect for people, and they say, if you're respectful of people, then you're going to be providing a safe, environmentally sound workplace. You're going to be giving people good work instructions because that's respectful of the person. And that, to me, builds it a little bit more than, oh, I'm just going to be nice to you. Because respect isn't about being nice. It's about, you know, treating them. I hate to use the word nice, but it's so much more than that. If you need to tell someone that to correct them so that you can improve the way they're doing their work, then that would be respectful of that person.

Yeah. And not correcting them would be disrespectful.

I would say it would be disrespectful. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. Kelly, I know you've been at this for a long time. What's the. What's some of the best advice you've ever received?

The best advice came from a colleague of mine at the. At the time, I was leading the steering team for our continuous improvement journey on my plant site. And in the room, I was, and I still am the junior person. And so I'm leading the team. But it's our senior management that's part of our team. And I was brought up to be very respectful of people's positions, which I am. And I'm also extremely respectful of the individuals that are filling that role of who they are. And so I wouldn't always lead the team decisively. I would be deferring more to their rank rather than my role. And the individual told me to own it. He said, kelly, you're not doing us any. Any good. We need someone to lead this. This team. So own it gave me a different way of looking at it.

How did you feel when they said that?

Initially, I realized that they were right because I could see how I would let conversations go too long. You know, rather than correctly facilitating a meeting, it gave me a sense of empowerment. It's hard to describe. It changed the way that I now approach that meeting that Was, that was a long time ago.

Can you think of an experiment or project? It didn't turn out as you hoped, and if so, what did you learn?

Like everybody, it's like, you know, can we think of one that did turn.

Yeah, yeah, right.

It did turn out right. Probably, I don't know so much of an experiment, but an approach. When I was first asked to lead the team, like many people, I was told to, you know, essentially roll out. Lean was my directive. We didn't know better at that time. And if someone gave me an assignment, then, by golly, I'm going to complete my assignment. And so often I would go into areas and if they were resistant, then it would be up to me to, I felt like to more or less kind of bulldoze through there because I had an objective. Probably my biggest learning was, this isn't about me. And so I'll take hits sometimes on my performance because it's better for the area that I'm going into if we slow down, if we can get them to come around, if we recognize the obstacles that are in their way. Because, you know, people come to work every single day to do a really good job and we just have to understand what's standing in their way.

Beginning of the show, you talked about that the moment that they told you, hey, Kelly, we want you to go look at this, this lean stuff 40%, 40% of your time. So that, that day. Let's go back to that day now. Let's say that we've, we've advanced in technology and, and we're able to Send Current Day 2017 Kelly back to her, to her old self. And you have five minutes to spend with your old self to give, give your old self some, some advice. And you can't, it can't be stock market market related. Okay? It has to be continuous improvement related. What advice, if any, would you give yourself?

Own it. That would be probably my number one. Own it. Start learning faster. So it took me a while to discover the wealth of knowledge and books that. That was out there. I was, I don't know what I was doing, but I wasn't necessarily utilizing all of the resources that are available. And of course, I would back off and let. I mean, our job is to apply positive pressure, but not to bulldoze people. And so that balance. And then I would also have started a lot earlier with the management discipline Creating a Lean Culture book of David Mann using some of the methodology that are listed in that book much earlier than we got to them.

What are you Most proud of, as.

It relates to your journey, the transformation of an individual. I mean, if you, when you see that and anybody that's been doing continuous improvement, there will probably be a person or a group where, you know, you had the privilege of watching that information of the individuals take place. I mean, sure, we can improve an area, but can we make a real difference in somebody where they've been transformed?

And I don't want you to use any name, and I hate to put you on the spot, but can you think of a situation where maybe you.

Experienced this one time? And so I think, at least in my case, one of the reasons I keep getting up every day is to see if I can't have that again. Because once you see it, boy, you want it again. Have you. You've had it, right?

Yeah, I have, yeah. Several times. Yeah. No, a couple times. Pretty profound ones. Yeah.

Right. So I was at a site and we were. I was teaching the job instruction, and at the beginning of the week, I'm, I'm dealing with a somewhat nervous group of ladies. And then by the. And they didn't have a whole lot of confidence, Very nervous. They weren't sure what they were getting into. But by the end of the week, when we were that last day to see their transformation, I mean, we talk about it still when we go to that site, and it felt like a party because of the training. So we were doing the, like the last exercise where you're, you're doing the different job instructions, and they had grabbed us, in some cases, some random people in the hallway. Those were the people that they were going to train. And so here are these, these ladies and they're training people that they might not know at all. And to see just their confidence, that was, that was really something.

Why, why was that group so special, do you think? Was it something you did or the stars align or what was it what made that that.

So it wasn't me. It was. I'm not exactly sure it was. I mean, you know, it's always the people. And so somehow they were, they connected with the, with the training. The why was right on that one. You know, why were we doing job instruction? So that there was. Was a big demand and everyone understood the why. And then as we began through the week and you could see that, yes, as we taught the same thing as all of the trainers learned to train the same way, then it was going to have an impact on their job and they just took it to heart.

So I know you mentioned you're a prolific reader so my question is this. I want you to give us two books. One book is just a standard lean you gotta read if you're in this movement type book. But then the second book I want you to give is a book that most people probably haven't read and it doesn't have to necessarily have lean in the title of it. Okay, but. But it's something that you believe passionately that all lean thinkers should read. Can you, can you give us, give us those.

So I have to ask you a question on the first one on. I have learned whenever anybody asks me about a book, I have to ask what kind of reader they are.

Yeah, good question. Let's say, okay, I'm going to change the question. So give me, give me a beginner lean book. Someone that's just getting started and that's going to total opposite spectrum. And let's say we're after it was 10 year veteran, 15 year veteran, doesn't think they know it all because they really are on the journey, but they've been after it for a while, so they've read a lot of books and so forth. So two, Two spectrums.

All right. The book that I recommend more often than not is Michael Ballet's Lead With Respect. That's the third book in his trilogy.

No, this is for the Beginner. Okay. Yeah. Okay, good. Lead With Respect.

Yep, Lead With Respect. It's the novel. And so even for those that don't enjoy reading as much as I do, the storyline will help pull them through. All right, so you asked me the hard one. You know, I like Jeff Liker's whatever his lean leadership one is. There's a whole bunch of Toyota ways. I've read almost all of those.

Do you ever read any books that just like that are maybe slightly outside of the.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, I've just finished how the World Sees you with by Sally Hogshead. I read Change Intelligence after you interviewed Barbara Trotman. Yeah, Just starting American Icon.

How do you read? How many. How do you read so many books, Kelly? Do you just. Are you just a fast reader or.

I am a fast reader.

What's the secret to reading fast? I know it's a kind of dumb question, but I can't read fast. I struggle with reading fast.

I. I don't know that it's a good thing. I really, I truly don't. Fourth grade they offered speed reading and I took it. And so there is a technique for speed reading. And it's great if you're reading, you know, just your Fictions, and I go through those because you don't really have to get the details, but if you're reading something technical, like the chemistry books or those kind of books, then sometimes those details kind of become important.

Yeah.

You have to go back and reread, you know, the. The book that I guess I might recommend. There's one by Kevin J. Dugan. Have you read any of Dugan's?

No. No.

It's. There's Operational Excellence in the Office, and he prickles me. I will always say that he prickles me when he talks about Lean. We have a slightly different opinion on Lane, the author and I. However, in terms of a how to, he offers a lot of really good how to information.

Okay. How do you spell his last name?

D, U, G, G, A, N. Kevin J. Dugan.

Cool. All right. He prickles you. So I might have to go seek him out and have him on the show and say, hey, we need to prickle Kelly Moore. All right, that's awesome. All right, last.

But when you read it. When you read it a bit, you'll see what Prickles think.

Maybe prickle me, too. I definitely have to have him on.

Last question.

Kelly, you've obviously been at this for a long, long time, and you'll be after it for many years to come. So is there one knowledge or skill area that you feel you need to improve maybe in the next, I don't know, six to 12 months in order to become a better lean thinker? And if so, what's your plan?

Well, there's one that I've been working on that I'm failing miserably on, and that's mindfulness. So I know Kevin Meyer, he describes it in the Simple Leader. I just haven't mastered that one yet. I laugh every time I'm thinking that I'm gonna go and try that, because I realize usually during my time of trying to be mindful, how much I'm failing at it, which is not what I'm supposed to be thinking about.

So for folks that aren't familiar, and I'm no expert, when you say mindfulness, what do you mean? I.

Try to go into a place of deep reflection where I'm just trying to quiet my mind and kind of be.

Mm. Do you practice it's any form of meditation or anything like that?

No, that might be one of my problems. But it's very, very hard for me just to. Just to be. So people that know me are probably laughing, trying to picture me doing that.

Yeah.

And then coaching, just becoming a better coach. That one I am actively working on. You have to ask the people that I work with whether I'm getting any better at that.

Yeah. Good stuff. All right, Kelly, well, thanks for coming on. Do you have any maybe final words of wisdom for the listeners? And then why don't you tell folks how they can best connect with you?

Final words of wisdom? I keep telling you, I'm just one of these that are out here practicing lean, trying to figure it out. So it's the word of wisdom would be keep working on trying to figure it out.

Yeah, yeah.

In terms of connecting with me, I am on LinkedIn. Kelly Moore, Genta.

Yeah. Awesome. All right, well, thank you, Kelly. It's been great. You take care, Kelly.

I'll see you then.

All right, thanks.

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