GA 186 | How to Transition into Different Lean Roles with Jess Orr

You're listening to episode 186 with Jess Orr.

Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira.

Hey there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy Podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day and your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now, I want to give a quick shout out and thank you to everyone that visited with us last week at the AME Conference in Boston. It was another great show and the best part of the show. I guess we're a little bit biased because it was our cocktail party, but our cocktail party was pretty, pretty epic. We were on the 50th floor of the Prudential Tower and I don't know how many people we had, but it was probably 250 plus folks. So it was a fantastic time and just want to thank everyone that came out for that and hopefully we'll see you next year in San Diego. Now, during the conference, I was actually able to meet up with Jess Orr. Now, Jess was on the show back in episode 142 where we talked about how to engage people and Jess and I were communicating over email before the, before the conference and decided to do another podcast. Now Jess has recently, well, I don't know how recently it was, but she left Toyota. She had worked at Toyota in the Georgetown, Kentucky plant for a while and she obviously learned a lot. And so what we talked about was her transition out of Toyota into another organization who. Well, there's not really many organizations that are on the same level as Toyota. So she just really talked about that transition and how it went, what went well, what was a struggle. And she also kind of talked about why she felt personally for her own self that it was time to leave Toyota. Now, many would think that being at a company like Toyota is the ultimate destination for those practicing continuous improvement. So it was interesting to hear Jess perspective on that situation. Now Jess also wrote a pretty popular LinkedIn article on this topic. And so we'll go ahead and we'll link to that in the show notes. So if you want to read that article as well. Finally, we, since we were there and Greg And Carlos were there with our video cameras. We were doing some videoing for the AME folks. We actually captured this interview on camera as well. So if you'd like to see Jess and I, in addition to just hearing us, go over to the show notes page and you can watch that video, we'll also probably put it up on YouTube so the show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com and you'll just look for episode 186. That's 1-86- again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 186. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show.

All right, so we are here in Boston at the AME Conference. I'm with Jess Orr. So, Jess.

Hey, Ron.

Thanks for taking time to visit.

Oh, my pleasure.

So we were looking it up. Episode 142. Is that what I said? You came on before.

It's been quite a few since we talked.

Yeah. Well, how's the show going for you?

It's going great. This is my first time that I've been here, so it's fantastic. Just getting to network with other people and see some best practices, it's just amazing.

Yeah. And a great cocktail party last night.

Oh, I had the best cocktail party last night. Yeah. Some great people.

Yeah, that was really good. Really good. All right, well, listen, well, you've been on before, but let's just give everybody a little update on your background a little bit and what you're up to these days.

Yeah, absolutely. So my background, I'm actually was a mechanical engineering major at Virginia Tech. So I graduated co op@ge, and that's really where I started to become exposed to lean manufacturing was at ge, and I was like, well, this is interesting. Not really exactly what I thought I'd be doing, but it kind of resonated with me a little bit. Then I worked for my first company. I was a tooling engineer for two years, and that's where I got my Six Sigma black belt.

Okay.

So I kind of went in thinking, oh, this is going to be great for my career. I'll get my black belt. And I started the class and I was blown away. And it changed the way that I saw things, not just professional.

What do you mean blown away?

I was blown away because I always thought I wasn't a statistics person. Like, I'd taken statistics in college and I didn't like it. And I found that it was just so applicable to everyday life. And it really helped me to sort what was true from my own Bias and conjecture. That was really the main benefit of it. So I was hooked at that point. I was like, I was totally in. So I got my black belt and I had the opportunity to work for Toyota. And of course Toyota is the premier world class lean manufacturing. So I jumped at that opportunity.

The which Toyota facility it was in Georgetown, Kentucky.

And so I started as a contract engineer. So I wasn't working directly for them and I worked in their Pre production stamping department.

Okay.

So I'm literally sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day doing 3D modeling and I'm like, this is not for me. I'm a hands on kind of person. I can't do this. So I had the opportunity to go full time with Toyota, working directly for them as a quality engineer.

And when was this? About what year?

This was about. Oh gosh, feels like it was forever ago. I want to say it was about 2012. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I started as a quality engineer and absolutely just, just loved it and you know, did pretty well. And in two years I was promoted to assistant manager in quality engineering. So that's where I ended when I, when I left Toyota.

So first kind of. I know we've got some plan questions here, but I just want to zig and zag a little bit. I'm always curious from a quality perspective at Toyota. You know, obviously no one's running around calling themselves black belts or anything like that, but what kind of quality tools are they using and are they doing design of experiments? Are they control charge, spc, what's going on there?

So it's a great question. What I love about Toyota is that we don't use some of the more complex tools because we want to make it accessible to everybody. So, so we don't want to make people feel intimidated by some of these. Like Doe's are pretty advanced. So honestly the biggest tool that we used was something we called Toyota Business Practices and that was basically just the A3.

So the eight question form, practical problem solving.

Absolutely, yeah. And you had to get certified in that. So you actually had to complete an A3 and you had to present it out and you usually had to do it a few times before you got approved.

Try again.

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And it wasn't like you didn't feel bad if you didn't pass. They were just like, we need you to work on this and come back with us when you've done that. So I actually did my A3 on the top supplier related defect in the plant and we were able to reduce it by 75%, my team and I. So, yeah, it was just a simple tool, but a very powerful tool.

So talk about that project or whatever. I mean, the A3 is obviously the way we tell the story. So it's not about the piece of paper. It's the thinking that goes into it.

It's a tool.

Yeah.

So, like, how did you. How did that go? Like, how long did that take?

You know, the whole process took probably about two months. So it took a little bit longer than your average A3, because this was. This issue is a tolerance stack up, and those can be really complicated to drill down to what the root cause is for that. So it took. It was a very complex problem. It took some time to really finish this one. But, you know, I'd rather take the time and actually truly find the root cause and eliminate it versus just putting a band aid on it.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so quality. What other things did you do at Toyota? Was that kind of the.

That was it. I was in quality engineering. Yeah, we have a whole department related to quality engineering. I focused on body parts, so mostly working with body weld and those guys.

So, I mean, Toyota, as you know, and most of our listeners know, is the mecca, right. Of lean and whatnot. So you're obviously not there anymore. So why did you decide to leave?

Yeah, it's a good question. It's one that people always want to know. Well, this was your dream company, right? You're starstruck there. Why did you leave? Yeah, it was a. It was a difficult decision. I left for personal reasons. I needed to be closer to my family. And there wasn't a Toyota plant where I wanted to live, which is in North Carolina, which I am where I'm at now. So it was a difficult decision, not one that I regret. It was the right thing to do, and it's actually turned out pretty well for me.

Okay, so we'll leave some. Not name names or anything like that, but talk about the transition from Toyota to your current company and how has that gone?

I've done so much reflection on this because it was a pivotal moment in my life. So, I mean, imagine you're in my shoes. You're leaving your dream job at your dream company, and you're not sure where you're going next. I didn't have a job, so.

You didn't have a job?

No, I didn't have a job. So I was kind of leaping out in faith. And I grieved probably for a year. I grieved Toyota. I missed that company. I missed the people, I missed the culture. Toyota's culture is very unique and it's something that hasn't truly been replicated, as far as I know, in any other company. But my new company, I feel so lucky to be there. It was something that it needed to happen and I learned to appreciate Toyota the most by leaving Toyota. That's what I had to do in order to understand the lessons that it had taught me. Because I wouldn't have understood those lessons if I had stayed with Toyota.

Give me some more insight into that.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, things like Kaizen. So Kaizen was something. We didn't have Kaizen events at Toyota, so we just. Kaizen was just a part of our daily work.

Friday report outs.

No, nothing like that. We had Jishican events where we kind of got a bunch of team together and focus on a specific problem, but we didn't have Kaizen events. So coming to a company where Kaizen was not part of the daily work really helped me to see how advantageous that was at Toyota and how ingrained it was. And it was just so much part of the culture. And I went to a culture where that wasn't the case and I was able to see the starkness and the contrast between the two. And I was like, was it hard? It was so hard. It's hard when you have to have a conversation with people about why they should change, why they should improve, when it's not a given and you have to be in a position where you're selling it to them. And I had never been in that position before. It was always a given. So I had to develop this new skill set of how to convince people that they need to improve, that they need to make their work better. So how do you sell that to people? And I had to learn some specific tools around that that have worked pretty well, I think.

Give us an example of something that you tried, maybe that didn't work and then one that did work.

Yeah, absolutely. So, so many lessons I've learned. So the first one that I did, it was all about me. So it was about what I could do, what problems I could solve. You know, I'm the so called expert. I'm going to come in and I'm going to show you what we need to do. I'm going to give you the answers and you know, it worked for a little while. And then, I mean, what do you think happened, you know, three, four months after I left?

Yeah, as soon as you leave, it.

Goes back to the way it was. Right. Because you didn't engage someone, maybe even worse. Oh, yeah. Because you didn't engage the hearts and the minds that people. You know. It was Jess's idea. It was just his project. It wasn't theirs. So that's an example of where it didn't go well.

Yeah.

So I really reflected on that and I thought I saw the metrics and I saw them slide backwards and I asked him questions and kind of a hanse reflection on the event and did some self reflection. And I realized that even if I have the right answer, it's so much more impactful if I can find that answer within the team and have them come to it, I can guide them. But ultimately it has to be their solution, even if it's not the solution that I would have picked.

So, okay, you reflected on it and figured out I got to try a different way. What did you do? What was your.

Yeah, what was the action? Right. Because there's knowledge. And then how do you actually apply that knowledge? So my next project, what I did, and I'm so excited about this, you can probably tell because it works so well. So I had my team together and the first thing that we did is we got together for a workshop and I said, all right, here's the problem we're trying to solve. We're trying to save $200,000 a year in this value stream. We all agree on the problem, we agree on the why. I was like, how are we going to do that? Let's brainstorm. So we had everyone write down their ideas on post it notes. How are we going to save $200,000? And I said, no idea is too crazy. No idea is too small. If you save 200 bucks, I'm good with that. I like that. So everybody kind of put down their ideas and then we ranked them. So we actually made like this, a matrix where it was kind of cost and benefit. So how much is it going to cost us to implement this or how hard is it going to be?

Impact effort.

Yeah, impact effort, exactly. Different names for this, different people call it different things. And we just made it very simple. We did red, yellow, green. So we graphed everything on the matrix. And then as a team, we did multi vote. So we kind of everybody gets three votes. You pick your favorite ideas and the ideas that had the most votes, we all discussed and we made sure everyone was good. Are we going to move forward on these ideas? And we picked like the top five or six because you don't want to take a scattershot approach. You want to Be like, all right, what can we focus on? Get the biggest bang for our buck. And the top idea that the team picked, I was not an advocate of. I was like, this is going to be too hard because it required getting an upstream department to change their process for us. And I said, this is going to be too difficult for us to do. But I kept that opinion to myself. And so we went. I actually. We went forward with it, and it turned out to be. It would. It saved us $300,000 per year at the end.

Okay, so I want to go back to that moment, though.

Yeah.

The moment they're up there and they're all excited. That's the one.

Yeah.

And you didn't think so. Did you say that?

No, the only thing that I did was I asked questions to try to.

Your questions like, are you sure you.

Want to do that? No, it was. It was. What do you think some of the challenges are going to be if we try to go down this path? How do you think manufacturing is going to react, and how are we going to respond if they react like this? So I tried to get them to think through the pros and the cons of it, and they did. They did a great job, and they still wanted to move forward with it. So I had to be humble and respect the team and decide and say, all right, so what do we need to do? What are the actions we need to do to move forward with this?

Sounds like it probably was more of a learning moment for you than it was for them.

It really was. I had to realize it wasn't about just. Yeah, it was about our team. Yeah, it was very impactful.

So how did that. Obviously worked out.

It worked out great. So the upstream department, we carefully did, like, a cost analysis, and we said, all right, here's what it's going to cost you to implement this, but here's what the benefit's going to be for the entire value stream. And one of the things my company struggles with is we're very siloed in some operations, so. So explaining to them how it impacted the company as a whole. You can kind of see the lights turn on, and there was almost no resistance. They were like, well, they asked us to do trials, which I'm a big fan of, always doing trials before you roll something out. And we did the trials, and it worked out well. It actually didn't take the operator any additional time because he was actually waiting for the product while he could perform this extra procedure. So no additional time, no additional cost, except for the materials. That we needed and this tremendous impact downstream. The process that we were working on had taken five minutes. I just talked to the ops manager the other day and he's like, hey, Jess, we're down to two minutes. I was like, what? And the fact that he reached out to me in excitement to tell me that showed really the level of engagement that we got. So I was wrong. And I was happy to admit, hey, I was completely wrong about this.

Yeah.

And it worked tremendously. And it's still working today. I still stay in touch with those guys on that project. Yeah.

So I want to go. Go back to your time at Toyota. Is there maybe one aspect of Toyota that as it relates to continuous improvement that most people don't understand? Like, you know, lots of books and whatnot written about all the things that we read about. But are there hidden aspects of their TPS that we just don't get? The lay person, if you will?

Yeah, there's one I think that we don't get. And I only realized it after I left Toyota, like many things, and that's the investment in training. So I don't think that there's been a lot of literature about this, as far as I can tell. So when I started in quality engineering, they. I wasn't working for 10 weeks. They had 10 weeks of training for me where I rotated to different departments. I mean, I would spend a day just hanging out with the guys in Body Weld, seeing what they did, spend a whole day doing that. So really. And it shows respect for people because it says, hey, Ron, I value you so much and I see so much potential in you that I'm willing to pay you for 10 weeks to not add direct value to my company. So that's something I don't think people realize about Toyota is just how much emphasis and how much time they spend on training for a new production worker who's a new team member who's going to work on assembling a door, they'll actually put him in a little mock cell where he can spend time practicing assembling this door. They've got these little cells throughout the factory where people can spend time just practicing their skills and getting better at it. Not on an actual vehicle, but somewhere where it's safe to fail. You know, they could fail often and learn from each one of those failures. So I don't think many people are aware that Toyota puts such an emphasis on training and continuously training as well.

So next question is two part question and one as it relates to Toyota and one as it Relates to your current company. Same question. What's Toyota's and your current company's biggest opportunity?

They're good questions. I want to reflect on that. I think I'm going to start with my current company. So our biggest opportunity is that our continuous improvement team is its own group. And I've told one of our vice presidents this. I said my goal someday, the vision that I see is my group is dissolved because every employee every day is working on continuous improvement. And you don't need us, you don't need full time people working on it because everybody's doing it every day. So that's pretty radical. I think it's going to be a while before we get there, but that is my goal, to work myself out of a job. So we'll see how it goes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then for Toyota, what we. I think the biggest opportunity there is to get back to the basics. So Toyota in North America has become Americanized to some extent. And I've traveled to Japan and I've seen Toyota in Japan, and it's very different.

Like. Well, give me an example.

There's more emphasis on continuous improvement and sharing best practices between the facilities. We're a little bit more siloed in North America. We don't always talk to each other and share best practices as opposed to just starting from scratch. So a lot of that's just communication, knowing the right people to talk to and that kind of thing. So I would encourage Toyota to try to get back to basics, get back to team cps, maybe bring. Bring more Japanese in for a time to help us get back to our roots, to where we started. That would be my recommendation.

Yeah. So how. How many years have you been practicing continuous improvement, approximately?

I would say about eight to nine years.

Okay, so you've heard me ask this before on a podcast, I'm sure, but jump into that time machine and go back nine years and you get to spend five minutes with yourself.

Okay.

And you can, as it relates to continuous improvement. No stock market advice or anything like that.

I was gonna say I'd love to do that.

What advice would you give yourself?

This is such a good question. And while I don't have any regrets, I think my journey brought me to where I am. There are some things that I would like to tell myself, and the action that I've taken moving forward is I love mentoring new engineers and I try to share with them, you know, here's where I screwed up. So if you want to maybe not do that, I recommend that. But I would Tell myself is that it's not about Jess. It's not about you. And I think as engineers, we think that we're hired to solve problems, and I think we're really hired to capture the hearts and minds of people to enable them to solve problems in their work area. Because I'm not. There's no way I'm gonna understand the process the way as someone who's been doing it for 20 years, I just can't. I mean, I'm relatively smart. I've been told I can't. I've not done it. I've not had those cycles of learning. So I would just. I would recommend to myself, focus on the people around you and less on what you. You can do.

Yeah, My favorite quote. We have found the problem, and it is. I. Yeah.

You know, Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

Good.

So last question for this, and we'll. We'll kind of do a. We've already done the reflection section before, but maybe we'll revisit some aspects of it. But someone's listening to this right now who's just kind of getting started with their journey.

Or perhaps we can do it two part.

You know, someone just getting started and someone who's been on a journey for a little bit. Is there advice for those two folks?

Absolutely. So for the person just starting on their journey, I recommend that they do what I did listen to every episode of Gemba Academy. And the reason I'm saying that I'm not putting a plug in for you guys, although I guess I am, but, is that you learn so much from other people's perspectives, and you usually. You have new people on each podcast. And I gotta tell you, Ron, every single time I listen to a new podcast, I learn something. Oh, cool. I do. I do. So I'd recommend that. That's easy. You can do it while you're working out. You can do it on your commute. That's easy. And then there's books that I definitely think are just foundational to read.

Give a couple for folks starting.

Yeah. So the best one, I think, to start out with is Paul Akers two. Second lead.

Just spoke.

Yeah, just spoke. Great talk he gave. And the reason I recommend that book is it's very accessible, it's easy to read, it's fun to read. There's lots of pictures, and it makes lean fun, and lean should be fun. So I recommend starting with that, and that'll give you an overview of some of the basic concepts. And then the other one that I would recommend, and these are light reads. And I think it's important to start out with that because Lean doesn't have to be complicated. The other one that I would recommend is everything I learned about Lean, I learned in first grade.

Okay.

So that one is. It's a story.

I haven't read that one.

I've learned the Joe's Garage, Everything I learned similar.

So it's fun. So it's just about this guy who goes with his daughter to school in first grade for the first day.

Okay.

And her teacher, although she doesn't call it lean, she's very aware of lean concepts and lean principles and applies them to her classroom. So it's just a fun book. Yeah, it's a great read. I recommend that one.

Awesome. Okay, now, okay, let's transition to the more experienced practitioner for the more experienced.

Practitioner, so they'll probably be ready for some more advanced books. Of course, I'd still recommend the Gemba podcast, the K Nexus podcast. I think those are a little bit more advanced with Mark Graben. I would definitely recommend those. For a more experienced practitioner, I would recommend Creating a Lean culture. And I don't remember David Mann, I think. Thank you. Yeah, David Mann. That one's a good one because it kind of goes into a little bit more of the technical aspects of it.

We actually had him on the podcast, I think.

Oh, really?

We've done so many. I'm pretty sure we have. Yeah.

And then the other one I definitely recommend, and again, I think it's Jeffrey Leiker. I may be wrong. The Toyota way, of course, is good. I would recommend Toyota Cold Culture. Yeah, that one's very good because it talks about, really, Toyota's core value of respect for people and how that practically works out in their everyday practices. Those are the two that I would recommend for them. And then the other one is. The other recommendation I have is really network with other Lean thinkers, which is the major reason why I came to AME conference is to do that. So you're going to learn so much. Iron sharpens iron. Right? So you're going to learn a lot from other people from their experiences, from their failures. I was talking to a couple last night from a company called Lean IT Strategies.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Steve Bell.

Steve, yes. Yeah, I don't remember the. I believe it was Karen.

Okay.

Yeah, Steve and Karen. And they were just sharing some of their experiences, kind of almost like a coaching role, telling me, all right, here's what you do. And don't call it lean, for one thing. And lean is flow. They said that's the simplest explanation that we can use to describe lean. And one of the most important pieces of advice that they gave me, I think is worthwhile sharing is when you're sharing lean and those principles with other people, always frame it in language that they understand. So one of the mistakes that I've made, I'm working on getting certified as a master black belt. So I'm gonna be teaching and training green belts. My company has this great process where you actually teach other master black belts and then they give you feedback on how you did. And some of the feedback I got is, Jess, you always use experiences that you have had. So my experiences are in the rubber industry and in automotive. And we're a paper company. Right. So we don't. We don't. Those experiences don't translate for us. You've got to, you know, realize where your audience comes from and tailor those experiences to their knowledge areas. So. And the Lean IT strategy couple, they also recommended that to me. They're like, even if you gotta give us a call and, you know, find out some IT stories from us if you're working with an IT group and always frame it in. In language that they can understand. So definitely connect with people like that who have more experience with you and peers as well. We just hired two new black belts at my company and I have learned so much from these two people. They've just, they've really helped develop me and I think hopefully I've shared some things with them as well. So just be willing to learn from anybody.

Yeah, gosh, Good stuff. So as far as the reflection section goes, I think we've done a great job answering some of the respecter people ones and whatnot. I want to ask you, I can't remember if I've asked you this before, but what are you most proud of as it relates to your overall journey so far?

This is an easy question to answer, and it's different than the last time I answered this. Okay. On one of my projects, I had a supervisor who was very resistant to my involvement in the project. He thought that their process was good and they didn't need help, especially not from an outsider. From corporate. Right? From corporate. And I'm here to help. Yeah. Okay. And so this particular supervisor, I worked with him, coached him, said, you know, I'm not here to fix you. You guys have done a fantastic job. I'm here to help you come to the next level. We want to make you even better. And I did some one on one coaching with him and this person, I watched him transform From a supervisor to a leader, he learned that he didn't have to do everything himself, that he could empower the people and the magic would happen. And I always do feedback surveys at the end of my project with my team because I want to know what went well that I can continue doing and where are my opportunities that I need to improve. And I worked on this project with a fellow black belt. And the supervisor's feedback was, this project helped make me a more productive person. And he said, I feel like I'm a better person because of working with these two. I guess you could say that they inspired me. Me.

Wow.

And he said, I learned that when you have the right people in place and when you empower them, the magic will happen. And I read that feedback and I was.

That makes you feel.

I felt so proud and so humbled at the same time. I was like, who am I to have changed this person on his journey? So I think that's what I'm the most proud of. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so proud of him and him being willing to change. Yeah. And being open to something new and just the progress that he made.

So good.

So good.

Jess, how can people connect with you? I know you're big LinkedIn. And by the way, we're going to link to your article. You wrote an article kind of centered on some of our conversation today. So we'll link that up. It's going to be pretty viral for you.

The LinkedIn equivalent of viral, whatever that is. Yeah. It's all about why I needed to leave Toyota 3. There seemed to have been a lot of interest in that article. So. Yeah, please check that out.

Okay.

So you can connect with me, jessor@LinkedIn orr or. Or yes, I have Kaizen my name. Gotten rid of all the unnecessary letters. So people are always like, or. That's it.

Is it really Jessica?

Or it is Jessica.

Your mom still calls you Jessica?

Yes. When I'm in trouble, that's when I know I've got problems. Yeah. Yeah. But you can also contact me. Me with email. So it's jessor11. The number is 11mail.com. And I'm so interested in connecting with other lean thinkers, too and kind of learning from them and sharing some best practices. So please connect with me. I would love that.

Fantastic. Well, thank you again for coming on. You know, we need to connect. Maybe we should make this an annual occurrence. We'll check it back in with Jess. Every year, reflect on the year that was.

See. See what things she's learned. Yeah.

So Let me put you on the spot with that, and we'll wrap the show up this way. Something that I was doing last night at the cocktail party was talking to people, say, listen, a year from now, we're going to be in San Diego at the AME Conference in San Diego. We're going to be at Gamba Academy's cocktail party, sitting around the table, and I want to know, what stories are you going to share, what results, what achievements, what challenges, whatever you want to call, call it, will you have accomplished? Can you think of any?

Absolutely. So I want to learn how to engage people more in my teams. One of the biggest things that I want to learn how to do is become a better coach. I want to learn how to use questions instead of just giving advice. I want to help people find the answers that they already know. I want to work on that, and then I also want to work on. I want to get my master black belt certification, and I want to work on my training and presentation styles. So to really connect with people and. And leave them with something actionable and applicable for them, that those are two of my main goals. So I hope to tell you next.

Year, okay, you're on the spot now. We're gonna do it.

Yeah.

Next year, even if you're not at ame, we'll do a podcast.

You gotta hold me accountable. Yeah, I like that. I like it. Sounds great.

Very good. Thank you.

You're very welcome. Thanks, Ron.

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