GA 210 | How to Identify and Counteract the Three Root Sins with Ron Pereira

One of our favorite books, Steve, is the Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday. And that's what it's about, right? It's finding obstacles and knowing, hey, that obstacle. Now we know the way. Hi, everyone. Today's show is gonna be a bit different than normal since I'm not actually hosting the show. Instead, my friend and colleague Steve Cain takes control and interviews me about a topic I've been digging into the last few weeks. Well, specifically, I've been learning and studying about what some ref to as the three root sins. So on today's show, Steve and I talk about what these three root sins are before talking about how they actually manifest themselves within the business and continuous improvement world. We then explore some practical countermeasures any of us can use to overcome any of these issues. Now, show notes for this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 210. You can also check out Gemba Academy's Lean Learning System over@gembacademy.com with a fully functional trial. Now let's get to the show.

Hey, Ron, welcome to the show. Where are you calling in from today?

Well, I'm calling in from Keller, Texas, Steve.

Imagine that.

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me on, man.

Yeah, it's a pleasure. I gotta confess, it feels a little weird, kind of turning the tables and me hosting the show.

Yeah, well, it feels weird for me, too. I was like, a little bit, like, kind of nervous. Man, this is weird. You know, I don't know what you're going to ask and all that.

Well, I, you know, we did this once before. I think it was about three years ago or so.

Yeah.

Participating with a podcast is always a great time for me. I really enjoy it and it's kind of fun to be on this side of the microphone, if you will.

Yeah, awesome. I love it.

Yeah. So today's podcast is really not a topic that stemmed from a conversation that you and I had earlier today. And the, you know, the concept that we're going to discuss, you know, I guess it's, you know, kind of a personal item for you, but really kind of translates to lean leadership, self leadership, that kind of thing. Why don't you tell the listeners about what that conversation was?

Yeah, so, yeah, I don't even know how, like so many of our conversations, Steve, I don't even know how they get on and with the avenues that they go on or. But we always have some awesome, awesome conversations about different, many different topics. And yet today we were just talking and I was explaining that me and some of my buddies outside of work, and they're actually some friends of mine, all go to the same church, we get together on the weekends, just kind of hang out and kind of check in with each other and see how our week was and kind of, kind of push each other to be better, you know, husbands and fathers and all the rest of it. So, so it's a great kind of a little mastermind group, if you will, of my, some of my personal friends and, and we had been exploring this topic and it's kind of more of a spiritual type topic. So I won't get into the too much of the spiritual stuff, but it, it's on the topic of root sin, like R O O T sin. And the idea is that there's three root sins that if you have a problem with any one of the. All of us have a problem with at least one of them or if you're like me, pretty much all of them. But primarily we have one that really stands out. And what happens is it kind of manifests itself and then any other type of issue, whether it be a sin or just a defect in the way that you operate as a human, probably stems from one of those three root sins. And the way that it was first introduced to me was kind of a really fun story of the TV show Fixer Upper. And I don't know, Stevie, I don't think he had mentioned that you watched that show much, but I bet a lot, a lot of the people listening know the one I'm talking about. It's Chip and Joanna Gaines. They're in, I think they're in Waco, Texas or whatever. And they, they, they, they go into these, these homes and they, they remodel them and making this like amazing, you know, transformations, right? And it all happens in a 30 minute episode. It's amazing. And so what? But they're all very predictable, right? The shows are all very predictable. So they, you know, they look around at a couple different homes and then they pick one, the homeowners pick one, they say, yeah, make that one beautiful for me. And then they begin the renovation process. And renovation process always goes with, you know, they kind of do some demolition and this and that. And meanwhile Chip, the husband, he's kind of leading that part. And Joanna's over here off the side figuring out all the awesome design and all that kind of stuff that she's going to do. Meanwhile, it always happens in every episode as they're busting up the walls or the floor or whatever it is, Chip the husband always discovers some big problem, right? It's like, you know, a rotting floor or moldy such and such in the bathroom. Drywall or. I don't. Something really bad, right. Electrical, all bad in the house. And so the call goes out to the homeowner, and they say, oh, Mr. And Mrs. Homeowner, I'm so sorry. This problem just came up, and it's a really serious problem. We got to fix it. Otherwise, you know, you're gonna have a really bad home. So what's the homeowner gonna do? Of course, they're like, okay, fix it. So they fix it. So Chip, you know, fixes the floor or replace the drywall, whatever it might be, and. And they carry on. Well, meanwhile, all the. All the other beautification happens. And then towards the end of the show, they have the big reveal, right? And the homeowners get to come in and see their house. Well, guess what never gets talked about.

What's that?

All the work that Chip did, right. Like the fixed fixing, the rotting floor or the bad electrical or whatever, because it's all hidden. It's all, like, under the surface, if you will. Sure. And meanwhile, all the stuff that Joanna does, and I don't mean to pick on Joanna. She's awesome, you know, I mean, she does great work, but she does everything that you can see. So what they talk about sometimes as it relates to this root sin is that we always want the fruit, right? The things that we can see, namely the fancy, you know, furniture or whatever it might be. But we very rarely are interested or want to put any effort on the root. Right? But obviously, if Chip hadn't fixed the foundation or whatever, the electrical problem or whatever it was, and no matter how pretty the pillows are on the couch, you know, the whole thing's going to burn down. Right? And so that was kind of how I was first introduced to the. The whole idea of the difference between. So, like, fruit and root. Okay. And. And so the more you get into. Then the. On the kind of the root sin side of it, there's. There's three root sins. And obviously, from a. Like, if you're a spiritual person, you can. You can take one avenue of it, but just for anybody who's in the business world or anything like this, these three root sins are very applicable to anyone, no matter your belief system. And. And the first one is pride. And from a definition perspective, I mean, when you hear the word pride, you think of many things, but the definition that we were given was that that pride is the inordinate attachment to our own excellence. So, so the person who's kind of a perfectionist, right, like they gotta win no matter if it's, you know, game of Monopoly with their kid or you know, the big deal with the, with their competitor. You know, if they don, they're just crushed. Right? So, so, you know, sometimes a prideful person, they believe like, you know, everyone's stupid or everyone's an idiot. You know, I'm, and they're the smartest ones in the room and, and you know, they're angry a lot and they criticize a lot. So, so this is, this is pride. The second root sin is vanity. And this one is the most interesting to me. So from a definition perspective, vanity is the inordinate attachment to the approval of others. And so when you hear like the vain person, the thing that you immediately think of is the person who's super concerned with how they look or you know, how's their hair, their makeup or maybe like how fancy is my car or you know, whatever that might be. So that's one aspect of vanity, but it's way more than just that. In fact, something that I didn't realize, but shyness, people who are shy is actually, can be a form of vanity because these people, not all people that are shy, but some people that are shy, they're so worried and so concerned about what other people are going to think about them that they do their very best to just avoid people in general. And so their shyness is actually rooted in vanity, you know. And so, so that's, that's kind of vanity from, from a high level perspective. And then the last of the, of the, the third root sin is sensuality. And so this is the inordinate. Inordinate, inordinate, I can't say that word. Attachment to comfort, ease or pleasure. So like from a, like, you know, in the, in the physical world, you know, if someone enjoys, you know, you know, a bottle of beer, then well, more beer is better. Right? So.

Right.

So they don't really have control over their senses. Right. Or maybe people, someone likes to sleep in, you know, so more sleep is better. So if you're, if you're struggling with sensuality, then it's just like you're, you're really consumed with comfort, ease and pleasure.

Right.

And so, yeah, so pride, vanity and sensuality are, those are the first, the three root sins which you know, again, you might say most of the other issues or defects of a person might really find their root in one of those three.

Right? So somebody say not Religiously active might look at these as, say, behaviors or traits as opposed to. As opposed to a sin.

Right, exactly.

So how does this translate to Lean or the working world?

Yeah, so I think it translates beautifully, really. And I think the way to go about it is to think about, okay, if you look at each of those three as lean thinkers, we say, okay, yeah, that's the problem, or that's the opportunity, if you will, what are the potential countermeasures? Right. And so I think that's a. It's a good way to look at it. So let's take pride at the first one. So, again, the inordinate attachment to our own excellence, or we're perfectionist, and we got to win, you know, we got to beat everyone. So some potential countermeasures to pride are gratitude and humility. So if you find yourself, you know, in the business world or in the continuous improvement world or whatever it might be, and you're. And you. And you know, that you have enough. Enough courage to admit, hey, I struggle with this pride from time to time. Because, listen, by the way, everyone has some of these, right? No one's exempt from any of these, but someone is going to be like, oh, my gosh, that's me. That one that you just said, you know, and so, so, so it's nothing to be ashamed of, right? So, but. But if pride is your main issue, then, yeah, you want to really focus on gratitude and humility. And in other words, you know, we spend a lot of time within Lean talking about, you know, autonomy. Right. It's a big popular word. Right. Giving our employees or our people autonomy or the freedom to think. Well, if you're a very proud person, that's going to be really hard for you because everyone else is stupid, right? So how could I ever give anybody else who's stupid the opportunity to do anything? Because I can only do it.

Right. Sure.

And so what they've got to be able to do is practice humility and be grateful for those folks that are, you know, are part of your team, are part of the organization who do have talents that chances are you don't have. They have some gifts, some talent that you just don't have. And so you've got to be able to see that in those people and. And foster it and bring them out. So if. So, I think that's. That's the way that pride can be countered within kind of the business environment.

Yeah. You know, this conversation on pride makes me think about, you know, teamwork, for one. That's a very Big part of lean and the importance of team. Yeah. It also reminds me of Terrell Owens. Do you remember?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So. So for the listeners who aren't familiar with Terrell Owens, he was a wide receiver for. For the Philadelphia Eagles. Highest paid. I think he was the highest paid member of the team. But he had some serious pride issues. Did things like parked in the head coach's parking spot, things like that. Would show up to practice late, did what he wanted, and kind of dared the team to do anything to him. Well, the coach benched the star player. Now, this guy was the best wide receiver in the league at the time, but the team said we're better off as a team if we put this guy. If we pay him to sit on the bench and don't allow him to do anything else. Yeah, right. So I think it's like that's an example of, I think, what you were saying, how pride interferes with our own best interest, with. With productivity, with our contribution to a team.

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly, yeah. So vanity then, I think. Let's talk about vanity. So again, it's the inordinate attachment to the approval of others. So this is an interesting one within the confines of business. And, you know, I think it's. It's, you know, pride and vanity actually kind of play together a little bit. But, but I think that this one strikes me as might be that I'm so worried of what Steve thinks of me, of Ron, that, you know, I'm just petrified to. To really experiment or to try anything because I'm so worried that. That I'm going to maybe let someone down. Right. Having that feeling that I got to. I got to prove myself to everyone, you know, and I see this sometimes, unfortunately, within the continuous improvement world when you might have a department who is made up of continuous improvement practitioners. Right. And. And these folks technically don't add direct value to the product that's being sold or the service that's being sold. So some might see them as overhead. Right. And so these folks are constantly running around trying to. I don't know how to say it, but I think it's just safe to say they're trying to justify their existence by trying to add value some way or another. And unfortunately, that's sort of a form of vanity. Now, it might be imposed vanity on them, but nonetheless, they're constantly trying to seek the approval of others, whether it's their boss or whatever it might be. And I think the most powerful countermeasure to that is to really kind of come back to the why, right? And understand why do we exist and why are we doing what we do and not worry about trying to impress their boss? Like, it's kind of like how we always talk about with like something like Toyota Kata, Steve. You know, we talk about. It's not a problem solving methodology. Instead, it's a learning methodology. So the more that we learn, the more problems are solved. Right, right. So the. So to combat vanity, what we really need to be doing is not. Is stop focusing on trying to impress others, but do the things that are needed to be done the right way with the right intentions, and the recognition will come. Right. As a result of the good work. But when you take that mentality of, oh, gosh, I gotta do this, this or that or I'm gonna get fired, that's a form of vanity. And it's gonna. It's not gonna be a good way to work. You're not gonna enjoy yourself. There's gonna be tons of stress. And I just, you know, it's just not gonna be a good thing. Right, sure.

Sure. Yeah. So tell us about sensuality.

Right, yeah. So sensuality, again, is the inordinate attachment to comfort, ease, or pleasure. Wow. You know, from a. Like back on the kind of the spiritual realm, what they would say is, the two words that they would use to, to counter sensuality are, are temperance and fortitude. Right. So temperance is. Is you say, using good things in the right way at the right time. So like back to the example I used with, you know, a guy who enjoys a beer, you know, once in a while, or a glass of wine or whatever it might be, maybe fine, you know, have that glass of wine, but, you know, you probably don't need an 18 pack of beer to cut your grass. Okay, so that's temperance. Right. And then fortitude is courage or strength. Right. So from a business world, I'm not sure. I don't know how temperance plays into the business world, but fortitude definitely does. Fortitude is courage. Right. And strength. And it's. It's having the. It's knowing that within continuous improvement, there is no get rich quick scheme. Okay. If you look, if you're looking for the checklist or the three things that you got to do to be lean. I'm sorry, it just doesn't exist. Okay. There's just. There's no easy way to do what it is that we try to do. It's a struggle, right? And you've got to get in. You got to dig in and you got to Be really, you know, have the courage and the strength to fight through those obstacles that you're going to come. But as you know, one of our favorite books, Steve, is the Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday. That's what it's about, right? It's finding obstacles and knowing, hey, that obstacle, now we know the way through that obstacle. But if you're overcome with, you know, comfort, ease and pleasure, you only want things that are easy, then, you know, you're not, you're not going to succeed. I mean, if you do, you're a better person than I, that's for sure. So, so I think that's. I don't know, I think that's what those three kind of root defects, if you will, what, what they say to me from, from a business perspective.

Yes. So, you know, so pride, vanity and sensuality, we all have a need for these things, right? So when I do something well, I like to look back at what I've done, kind of reflect on it and take pride in my work. So. And I kind of have the impression that's really not such a big deal if I, you know, if I'm doing it quietly to myself. So is it the existence or the need for these things or is it the desire for excessive levels of these?

I think it's. I think it's definitely the excessive is for sure an issue. It's the person who. Their point in life every day is to get up and seek this out, you know, like one of the, like, you know, I'm not ashamed to admit it. Like, I, I feel like my, my biggest opportunity here is actually vanity. And it's not because of the awesome minivan that I drive or anything like that, you know, Trust me.

It is pretty nice, though.

It's a nice minivan, you know, Toyota Sienna. But, but like my, my life. My wife actually introduced me a long time ago to what they call the love languages. Have you ever heard of that? No, I don't. It's some stuff that, you know, she was reading and, and, and one of the love language, the basic idea is that we each have a love. This is like what speaks to us, right? And so like, one of the, one of the love languages is gift giving. And like, and we can, you can see it in your, you know, we can see it in our children. And with like, my daughter Brenna, she's a gift giver and she always has been. You know, she's the one on, like Christmas who makes the handwritten card and she's sitting there watching you open It. Right. Cause she's so excited for you to get that gift. Right. So she's a gift giver and she loves to receive gifts because what you love to do for others, you like to get back. Right. So that's one of them. Well, another one of the those love languages is words of affirmation, and that's me, believe it or not. So, so like, from a love language perspective, you know, words of affirmation is my language. And so this is, I would say, a slippery slope into vanity in that I feel the need to have others kind of praise me or say that, gosh, you're doing a great job, Ron. And I don't think there's anything wrong with, with that, you know, within reason. Right. But if it's your soul motivating drive in life to seek the, the approval of others, this is a form of vanity. And so we got to figure out to make sure that. Well, you know, one of the, they say within the kind of the spiritual world, one of the, the countermeasures to, to work to vanity is, is hidden acts of charity. Which is interesting. Which is to say that, you know, maybe you go to the local soup kitchen to volunteer. Well, this is a great, awesome, you know, respect for humanity and all the rest of it. Right. Problem is what happens when you're there. You're so busy taking selfies and all these awesome pictures that you can't wait to flood onto Facebook and your social media to say how great you are. And all you want is the people to flood you back and say, oh my gosh, you're terrific, Steve. You're such a good person. Right. You know, and so it's like you took what was a beautiful gift or a beautiful act of charity going to this volunteer at a soup kitchen and turned it into you seeking attention. Right. And so the idea then is to do hidden acts of charity. So maybe a continuous improvement is, you know, helping people improve. And don't expect credit. Right. Don't do it for the credit. Do it because it's the right thing to do, you know, And I don't know. So it's just. It really rocked my world when I first heard that. And I was like, golly, man, that really has so many tie ins to so many areas of our lives, I think.

Sure. I mean, there's a big difference between doing good in the world and being seen doing good in the world.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. So it seems that with all three of these, a common missing element is service to others. Would you agree with that? Yeah, this is really self focused, right? The excessive pride, vanity and sensuality.

Yeah, yeah. It's all about how can you be more comfortable or how can you be better. It's me, me, me, me, me instead of. Yeah, that's exactly right, Steve. Looking outwards and how can I better serve others? So, so maybe, you know, this is the whole servant leadership mindset, right? Is it's not about you, it's about, it's about others, it's about making those around you better. And you know, if we can do that, then we're going to be not only better leaders of people or better continuous improvement practitioners, we're just going to be better human beings. Right, right. Walking into Earth.

So if we, you know, encounter people like this. Not really. If we do that, that's, that's, you know, part of, you know, dealing with a large number of other people. When we encounter people who are, say, suffering from an overwhelming need for any one or all three of these, you know, what advice do you have for us?

Well, run. No, just kidding. Don't run. I mean, they're all around us, right? I mean, whoever your significant other has one of these, right? Everyone's mom or dad, you know, everyone has, has one of these root, you know, issues. And so maybe it's, it's as easy as not easy. But I think it, you know, awareness is, you know, the fact that I, I didn't, I never really thought of myself as a overly vain person. And I don't think I am in certain areas, but in some ways I am. And it was, and it was having that knowledge of, of, of, of what it is, first of all, you know, so I think helping people understand or maybe introduce it to them and say, hey, I got this great Gimba Academy podcast. You should take a listen, you know, I don't know, let us do it for you. Right? But just helping people become aware of, of, of their, their, the ways that they might be able to improve. And if you go into it with a heart of, with kindness and charity instead of being a jerk and trying to say, hey, you know, quit being so proud or, you know, so vain or quit being so sensual. Yeah. First of all, they're not gonna know what you mean, but it's not gonna work, you know.

Yeah, but yeah, I think you're, you're, you're right about that. If you're, if you truly desire to serve others. Right. With that message. Now, it probably won't be all that pleasant for anybody, either person in that conversation to participate in it, but Sometimes it's really important. And I used to work with somebody. She was vice president of human resources. So she devoted a career to helping people improve, personally, professionally. And she had this wonderful gift of just cutting so quickly and so deeply on an issue like this that you'd get it, you'd hear it, and not be hurt by it.

Yeah.

Right. And as an example, she might say something along the lines of, Steve, you know, in this situation, you know, we saw this behavior. This is what we. What you did. Right. You remember that? Right. And in this situation, there was a similar behavior pattern. You did this. You did this. It seems that vanity is very, very important to you, or approval from others is very important to you. And I want you to think about that, and I want you to understand how that might be harmful to the team, how it might interfere with. With how well we perform as a team. Yeah. And it's not an attack. It's like, we saw this behavior.

Yeah.

This is, this is my view of it. I'd like you to think about it. Yeah. And it is kind of like just instantly pulling the wind out of that sail and just kind of neutralizing it quickly. I think the skill that she developed and that came over years and years and years of work and trying to be very good at that. But one of the things that kind of crosses my mind is that when we perceive this and others, that we have some sort of responsibility to. To help that person with the issue in some way. Got to be careful about it. But we're not helping anything if we say nothing. Right.

Well, and I think this could be, this could be like a team building exercise, you know, because, like, everyone in this room, if you're talking to one of these three, is going to speak to you. It just is. It's just like a certainty. Right. And so, um, and then the leader can start themselves, by the way. I'm struggle with this one, you know, so no one's perfect. Right. I think if you go into it with a heart of. We. We are all imperfect human beings. Right. And we all are trying to be better. And that's the spirit of continuous improvement. Right. We want to be better. And so I think you just go into. With that heart of, of helping and, and, and, and making sure that they don't think that you think that you're all that. Right. Like, because I'm as defective as anybody. Right. And so. But I was given this knowledge and I want to give it to you so then we can all be aware of certain opportunities for us to Improve.

Yeah, that Patrick Lencioni's Five dysfunctions of a team. One of the exercises, right?

Yep.

Identifying yourself, your most unproductive behavior, and then hear from everybody else on the team what they think is your most unproductive behavior as well.

Yeah.

And, yeah, I think it's a worthwhile experience.

Yep. Yep. Exactly.

Oh, very good, Ron. Well, hey, maybe it's time to move on to some of the reflection questions.

Okay, sounds good.

What does respect for people mean to you?

Oldie but goodie. We got, like, 150 episodes with answers on this.

Yeah.

What does respect for people mean to me? Yeah, well, you know, I think I remember I've. I think I've answered this before. It's like, it's really thinking about, you know, just really caring for other people, you know, and it's like, really, it's about trying to. I don't want to say the word serve others, because that's what we've been talking about so much today. But I really do think it's about making it about other people and not yourself. So maybe kind of fits in with what we've been talking about here is that, you know, to. But. But, you know, and it's all the same things that we've heard a million times. But, you know, respect for people is not, you know, kumbaya singer with our arms around each other and always happy. Go lucky and all that. That's the opposite. Because sometimes, you know what? I need my butt kicked. So when I need a kick, Steve, I expect you to kick it. Right. And, like, likewise, if you need your butt kicked, I'll do it, you know? And. And so. Because if we don't, then we're not being respectful. Right. So I think it's kind of expecting the best out of people and then helping them get that best, you know, but that's. That's what it means to respect, as I expect you to be your best, and I'm willing and able, and I do. I'll do everything that I can in my power to help you be your best. Right. And hopefully you'll reciprocate that and return it back to me and help me be the best that I can be. So I think that's what respect for people is.

Yeah. One of the questions that you ask your guests from time to time is, where do you think Lean is going in the future? In other words, what's next for Lean? Right. So a little more specifically about Gemba Academy, what's on the horizon for Gemba Academy?

You know, we've been going along here for how many years now, Steve? I should know this.

Nine. Nine years.

Nine years, something like that. And you know, we started as the idea of, you know, like kind of solving a problem that, that I didn't see existed and was I need to be able to, I need more than a, you know, a simple DVD, 20 minute DVD on some cool aspect of Lean, which is fine, you know, to fill some space in a training class, but I really need to be able to teach someone how to do smed without have me having to be on an airplane traveling the world. Right. And it just didn't exist the way that I wanted to. So. So that's kind of how this thing came to be, was filling that void. And so that was, you know, that's an important part of our, of our offering. But you know, what we've talked about, you know, and my kind of my dream is one day that, you know, people are going to look at Gemba Academy and they're going to say, man, that Gemba Academy, they're a really cool company. And oh yeah, they got really good videos too, by the way, you know, and so that, so and we already are becoming that. Right. You know, kind of getting into the consulting scene a little bit and, and, but really focused on coaching now. You know, we're. Well, I would say, you know, you and I in particular, we spend a massive amount of our time now, you know, talking on the phone, visiting with folks and helping them. And that's so rewarding. Right. And again, the videos are always there and they're really important. But as we say, you know, yeah, we have a thousand videos, but it's not about the videos, you know, it's about invoking change with some of the things that you just learned. And so watch one video, that's fine, and watch the other 999, you can watch those later. Watch one and then go do something with what you just did. Right. And so I see that just continuing to evolve over the years and that we're really focused on, on helping people really understand where they're at because, you know, that's, that's probably the biggest opportunity that we have with our customers is it's helping people understand, first of all, not what video should we watch first or what where should we start? It's where you should start is figuring out where you are as an organization and, or as an individual, maybe, you know, like, where are you? What's your current state right now? And then where would you like to be in say six months to a year, then we can kind of work on. Okay, well, here's the plan for that. But so I see more and more of that, of deeply understanding, helping our customers understand their issues, so then that we can help them, you know, kind of achieve their goals.

Fantastic. Fantastic, Ron. All right, well, hey, let's wrap things up here. How is it. How can people get ahold of you?

Well, I guess you go to gembacademy.com and there's a. Somewhere on the website, there's a contact button. You can hit that. LinkedIn. I'm on there. You know, Ron Pereira, P E R E I R a. Look, me, LinkedIn's probably the best. I mean, I think I have a Twitter and all this other stuff, but I don't ever have time.

So LinkedIn's LinkedIn. Probably the best way to you personally. Okay, very good.

Yep.

All right, Ron, well, thanks so much. It's been, again, it's been a pleasure being on the podcast with you and being your host this time. Thanks very much.

You did great. Thanks, Steve. Thanks for listening to the Gemba Academy podcast. Now we invite you to take a no strings attached, fully functional Test drive of Gembaacademy.com gain immediate access to more than a thousand Lean and Six Sigma learning resources, all free of charge at Gembaacademy.com.