GA 241 | How to Make Work More Human with Renée Smith

The basis of the initial research was telling me a story about a time when you felt afraid at work. What happened? What did you do? What did others do? What was the impact of that on you? And what did it mean to you? And then tell me a story about a time when you felt loved at work.

Today, I'm excited to continue our AME podcast series by welcoming Renee Smith back to the show. Now, if Renee's name sounds familiar, it should, because Renee from came onto the podcast back in episode 191, so definitely go back and check that one out. Now, Renee is a director of organization Development services for the state of Washington. Now, during the show, Renee really focuses on how to make work more human. In fact, during our conversation, Renee asked me to comment on the topic we were exploring, which led to me sharing a pretty personal story from my childhood. In fact, the situation I talk about was one of the biggest turning points of my young life. So hopefully that story resonates with someone out there. Now, show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 241 again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 2. 4, 1. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. All right, Renee, well, welcome back to the show.

Thank you, Ron. It's so good to be here. So good to see you.

Yeah. So, Ame. So. So this is your first time to ame?

Yes, exactly. I have not been to an AME conference before, but really excited to be here this week to meet so many people, see so many people like you face to face for the first time.

I know.

Meeting so many other people who are on this lean journey and each in their own different places and their organizations, and it's really inspiring.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were on the show back in episode 191 almost a year ago. Well, by the time this episode releases, it'll really be almost exactly a year ago. November 2017. So. So, so cool. So cool. So let's. Let's just jump in. It's gonna. For the folks listening here to the podcast, the. The big keynote it's about to unleash. So it's. Make it a little noisy, but we're just gonna fight through it. Okay.

Make it loud.

Yeah, make it loud. We're good with these headphones, so. All right, well, let's start. Do you have a quote that you want to share?

You know, the thing that I'm thinking a lot about lately, and it's really been with me from the beginning in this work that I've been doing with the state of Washington is that, you know, I've never just been interested in process improvement. It's important and I'm interested in that. But it's never just been about that. It's always been about more. It's been about how can we change an entire system so that that becomes a way of life and so that we, like, create a completely different way of working in government. And that really dovetails with this definition of lean. You know, there's always the big discussion about what is lean, you know, and I don't want to get too far into that, but I do want to offer that, you know, embracing this bigger question about, you know, being interested in changing a system means that the definition of lean that my friend Jim Benson offered, which is that lean is a human centered philosophy of work, has been completely catalyzing in this work that we're doing and like, lifts up our sights and gives us a whole other set of questions and challenges and opportunities to explore. That's what we've been. That's what we've been working on. And some great things have been happening.

Now I want everyone to go back and listen to 191 episode 191 after this. But in case folks didn't hear that one, Renee, tell us a little bit about your background. Maybe how you first got introduced to continuous improvement. And then, you know, for the folks who did listen to that episode back in November, catch us up. Because some big things have been happening in Renee's life, I think, over the last year. Yeah.

And in the state of Washington. So excited what we're up to. So my background is organization development by training, and I was in private practice with that and worked at the University of Washington doing organization development work with the administrative side of the house. And part of that work was continuous improvement work there. That took me to Olympia to the Enterprise Services organization, which is basically the organization, the central services functions that run the business of government. So I worked there at a time when we were really embracing lean as a state enterprise. And that's, you know, seven years ago, and that's been growing ever since. And particularly under Governor Jay Inslee and his administration. He's just embraced this as his management system. Yeah. And we have been on a, you know, an amazing. Going through an amazing process of cultivating this culture of continuous improvement as a state government.

So how do we get every state doing this? Let's start with an easy question.

That's a good question. And so many states are every.

Yeah, I know there's a ton out.

There that are there. You know, they're. I hear from people all the time stuff. People from Illinois who are here. We're working with the state of Pennsylvania and, you know, have colleagues there who are at it. Ohio and I mean, you could go on. On Arizona. Yeah, there are many, many states are. The thing is, is that government isn't good about telling its own story.

Yeah.

So there's. There are so many wonderful things happening in government, not only at the state level, but county and city governments. There's just beautiful stories happening.

Yeah. We've been working with the city of Austin in Texas. They're doing some great work.

Yeah, exactly. There's amazing.

City of Grand Rapids.

Yes.

Shout out to those guys. Yeah.

So it's happening.

Yeah.

It's just sort of the best untold story that, you know, is out there.

Yeah. So what's been the big change, you know, since last time we talked?

I guess I should set a little bit of context, maybe. So back in 191, that episode, the thing that I shared was that I had this curiosity. I had a conversation with my leader, Chris Liu, director of our agency at the time, and asked him about what was the most important job of a leader. And he said, to eliminate fear from the workplace. And from that comment from him came sort of like, ah, yeah, that's the thing.

And it.

I grabbed onto that and pondered that and came to the conclusion that when fear goes out, something takes its place. And that that thing is love, Right. Yeah. And so we talked about that last time, about that big idea, and then my pursuit of understanding what happens when people are afraid at work and what happens when people feel loved at work. And I did some primary research on that. 50 research, interviews, and then talk to people everywhere I go. And from that has come a lot of clarity about the incredible cost, the high toll that fear takes in the workplace, and all the different ways that it prevents us from doing the kinds of things that we're trying to do in a lane management system. And the incredible benefit and potential and unleashing of humanity and unleashing of all the good things that happen when people feel loved and loved. You know, that's a provocative word. It's purposefully provocative and it's kind of disruptive. But then it opens up a conversation to talk about, you know, well, what do you mean by love and what does that actually look like at work? So, you know, it can be a lot of different things to people, but. And People fill it in, you know, fill in the word that they're most comfortable with. Sometimes it's belonging, care, trust, respect, inclusion, empathy, kindness, all the things, all those good things. But when we fundamentally begin from that spot people live in, they bring it. They bring their best. They settle in and calm down. They're not anxious and their brains function better and they're able to do the things that we hope that they can do and that they want to do. People want to show up every day and contribute. So that was the big idea. And I began to share and talk and write about that in our own government and kind of beyond. And from that has come momentum. And I want to talk a little bit about the growing community that has come out of that. And then throughout the course of this year is that community has grown and the work with state leaders has grown. Now the opportunity to move from enterprise services to the governor's Results Washington office and in the governor's office and to focus on a human workplace full time. Wow. So my work now is directing workplace transformation to help ignite a change in the way work happens and to have it be more human centered. So which really, back to that definition, is really the core of what Lena is all about.

So what's the day in the life of Renee look like?

Well, because I'm pretty, pretty new and I just made the transition about a month ago, so that day is still getting figured out. But, you know, some of it is writing. Oftentimes I wake up really early and write. The ideas will come in, you know, and I'll be chewing on something. And so I'll spend maybe an hour writing.

And who are you sharing this writing with?

So I have a blog on makeworkmorehuman.com which is part of our state blog, and that will be moving and becoming part of the Results Washington website. We're just in the transition piece of that now.

Oh, I hear a claw flaws.

I think the posse's about to come, so. Yeah, but there's. There's writing and kind of thinking about the leaders and teams that I'm working with and how to best reach them.

Okay.

And so then, you know, after I make my commute down to Olympia from Tacoma, it's. It's engaging and creating products and tools and methods to developing ways, resources to support organizations on there that want to embrace this idea of being human centered. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm meeting with leaders, I'm teaching and speaking, collaborating with my colleagues, colleagues in Results Washington. There's a lot of connected work Going on, people working on different kinds of problems, results, teams that are taking on big problems in government and helping to bring government leaders together all over government to solve problems that Washingtonians care about. And, you know, the human centered piece is a part of that. I have a colleague, Jessica Dang, who is really bringing the leadership on the channel of human centered design and how from a customer perspective, we, you know, we approach the work, whether it's a form or a process or, you know, however we engage customers that we really think about that with empathy and design our work in government to meet their needs. Yeah, so there's, you know, lots of collaborating going on and then, and then just working with agencies and teams and leaders to help them become more human centered.

So the question I'm always fascinated with when I'm talking to folks who work in the government is, you know, leadership always changes in a, in a normal company, leadership changes. Right. You get a new manager or new CEO or whatever, and it can be disruptive, but it's a certainty in government that eventually leadership will change. Right, Right. So how do you, how do you deal with that? You know, like, as far as, you know, you might have a new governor, you know, you will have a new governor eventually.

You know, you know, there's a rhythm to government, that's for sure. And I think, you know, for me anyway, and I think from the colleagues that I work with, it kind of laser focuses you because you do realize that as your leaders, you know, as a leader chooses to go on or as something changes, that, you know, your time is limited. And so it does, it does focus you in on realizing that we've got only, only a small amount of time to do this work, and we've got to get busy and dig in and really do it. And, and so we focus on that, we talk about that. And it's a big question of how far can we get? Far enough. Fast enough to embed this in government and to help people understand the value and to help it continue our lean journey. Survived a transition, if you will. Originally, there was an initial beginning in the previous administration, and then with the new administration coming in years ago, when Governor Inslee came into office, he took that, embraced it, ran with it, really made it his own, and expanded it in powerful and impactful ways.

Well, I mean, the beautiful thing about continuous improvement is it really shouldn't matter if you're, you know, Republican, Democrat, independent, it doesn't matter. You know, everyone should want to make things better. Right. I think we can agree that better is better.

That's right. Yeah. It should be the great thing that brings us to one of the opportunities.

You certainly have to come to unite, really, you know, so. All right, well, talk about some of the continuing research that you guys are doing and what you're learning as part of that research.

So when I think about. There's a lot of avenues of research, like, there's a lot of questions. So the thing that's been beautiful about this initial question of what happens when we feel afraid at work or when we feel loved at work, and the answers that come from that is there's this quote, and I can't remember who it's from, but this quote that says, always a beautiful answer, that asks a more beautiful question. And it's like this. This work is full of beautiful.

Say that again.

Always a beautiful answer that asks a more beautiful question.

Yeah.

And, you know, every time I, you know, we do a piece of research or work with someone and get another. Another answer and another piece of the story, another set of insights, it's like, blows the roof off of the next beautiful kinds of questions to explore. But it's been really profound. And so we could try it. I think we should try it. Right? Okay. So the basis of the initial research was telling me a story about a time when you felt afraid at work. What happened? What did you do? What did others do? What was the impact of that on you? And what did it mean to you? And then tell me a story about a time when you felt loved at work. And love could mean anything, however you want to define love. Love could be belonging, care, trust, respect, empathy, inclusion. Any of the good stuff.

Yeah.

And what did that mean? What happened, and what was the impact and what did it mean to you? So I think it would be awesome.

For turn the table interviewing you. What's going on?

Yeah, I think it'd be awesome for you to share a story about a time when you felt maybe afraid at work and loved at work.

You know, actually, I'll think about work here, but the thing that immediately popped in my mind is it's a story. I've actually. I'm not sure if I've shared it. I know I haven't shared it on the podcast, but I think I've actually blogged about it before. But it actually. It's not a work thing. It was a thing from my childhood, actually. I. Something that a lot of people probably don't know is that I had a really bad anxiety problem as a young man. I think seventh grade was, like, a particularly hard year. For me, I just had a. Like I said, just tons of anxiety. I used to have to ride the bus for like an hour to school. And I have this. I still have a terrible motion sickness problem. You know, I gotta sit in the front seat if I'm not driving, you know, one of those things. So. But the anxiety, you know, amplified the problem. So I got onto the school bus and I sat in a front seat behind the bus driver. Same place. And it was to the point where every day it would get on and the bus driver, bless her heart, really sweet lady, would hand me a bag because she knew I was going to throw up. So I just grabbed the bag and I sat down and, you know, one thing led to another and I would every day throw up. Just racked with anxiety.

How traumatic.

Yeah, and so it was pretty awful. You know, kids obviously didn't want to be around me because the kid. The seventh grader up. Yeah. And make matters more challenging, the bus was seventh grade all the way through high school. So, you know, I was the bottom of the totem pole already, you know, here. All these big high school kids. So anyhow, one day I got to the bus stop and I'm standing there by myself, you know, and holding my. My bag and whatnot. And my neighbor, his name was Jeff Marker, and he was, I believe, in an 11th grade at the time, big stud high school quarterback, cheerleader, girlfriend, you know, he had it all right. This guy, you know, is kind of my idol. But I wouldn't really ever dare talk to him because it was, you know, Jeff Marker. Right. You know, who am I? So I'm standing there and Jeff walks up to me and he says, hey, why don't you sit with me today on the bus? And I'm like, huh? And then I thought to myself, wait a minute. Jeff sits by himself in the back. The back seat, you know, that's where the cool kids sit, right in the back. I'm like, okay, you can't say no, right? You know, so I'm like, okay. So I get on and I remember the lady, the bus driver, she's still handed me my bag. She wasn't sure. So I kind of grabbed the bag and I'm holding. Oh, man, this is going to be bad. So we go and we sit in the back seat, and next thing you know, he starts chatting me up, you know, about football and different stuff and sports and whatnot. And we're just having a decent chat, and all of a sudden I look up and we're pulling up to the High school, which was the first stop it was, you know, my school was five minutes away. We pull up to the high school, and I think I thought to myself, I didn't throw up. I'm okay, you know, And I'm like. He's like, hey, have a good day, whatever it was. And from that day on, you know, we continued to sit together on the bus, and we became friends, you know, as good as friends could be. 7th grade, 11th grade, kind of. We play basketball and kind of hang out on the weekends or whatever. And so I later found out in life from my mom that she actually went over and talked to Jeff's mom about my problem and asked, you know, her if Jeff would, you know, whatever. And so, yeah, he was put up to it, but he still did it. And he did it very well. Like, I had no idea, you know, that he didn't mean it or anything like that. And I don't. Wouldn't say he didn't mean it, but he. He acted on it. But I tell that story because it really changed my life, you know, in seventh grade, like, I. I never threw up again, ever, on the bus for the rest of my life. And so that. That morning, you know, was like. Like a huge, I don't know, awakening for me. And, you know, so I thank Jeff over the years, and, heck, I don't know, I've lost touch with him now, so maybe we'll find him and he can listen to this podcast so he knows how.

Hey, Jeff.

Yeah, hey, Jeff. He. He really impacted me, but I like to tell that story because I like to tell folks to. To never underestimate, you know, how powerful a single contact can be.

That's right.

You know?

Yes.

A single act of kindness is one act of kindness. You just don't know, you know?

Yeah.

So I don't know. So that. That. I don't know if that kind of fits in with what you're talking about here.

I think it's a beautiful illustration. So, you know, if we think of that as sort of it's. First of all, thank you for sharing that story. Yeah, it's inspiring. And I'm sure that others listening to it are totally.

Yeah.

Gripped by it, and we can relate. We've all had those experiences where we needed something like that. Right. And then when people have helped, it changes our lives. And when we've suffered and not then, you know, we also see the impact.

Of that on people.

But what I'm thinking about is how this is almost like a metaphor, like an illustration for what can happen in organizations. So if you think about the moms, the moms are like the, you know, the leaders in the organization, in the system. Right. And those moms did. What leaders should do is they looked down into the system, they looked at the people under their charge and said, oh, you know, your mom said, I got a concern. I love my son, obviously, and I need to intervene on his behalf. And so those moms, those leaders had a conversation and made the right thing happen.

Yeah.

And that changed her life. And she asked for compassion to happen. She asked for an act of empathy and kindness. I think our workplaces are full of those kinds of opportunities. We have people who are struggling. They're either. They're in work that's really hard, like, really painful. I had someone in a. In a gathering we had last Friday who works for the Department of Social and Health Services, and we were talking kind of using. Using some poetry, actually, to inspire public service and to just pause for a moment and reflect and kind of connect around our work.

Yeah.

And. And she, as she described her work, it was that every day she faces how ugly and horrible human beings can be to each other. Like, that's her job, is to have to look at that on behalf of all the rest of us.

Right.

We don't have to do that because she's doing her job every day to, like, deal with when people are being cruel to other people.

Yeah.

And, like, that takes a toll on a human being. And so for her to come to these gatherings that we're having, like, she's getting fed and connected and supported and is also getting that in her workplace. So there's that going on where people face tough work and they need. They need support or, you know, they're different. You know, they're either. They're different background, different race, different religion, different, you know, present, differently lgbtq, whatever. They're different. But they've got. They've got contributions to brain.

Yeah.

And we need leaders who create the context for making that happen. You know, creating inclusion and belonging and care.

Right.

So that people can bring it. Because we, you know, we don't just need just the people that, you know, look like us to bring it or that sound like us or whatever.

Right. We need all the people to bring humanity.

We need humanity, and humanity wants to bring it.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's beautiful. So let's say someone's listening to this right now. And only. I was going to say, in the government, I don't think. It's definitely not just a government thing. Right. This Is a world thing.

Right.

Like what, what can leaders do, Renee, to kind of just improve the way they're. They're thinking about relationships. Love even.

Yeah. You know, and I will say that it's a world thing now more than ever, isn't it?

For sure.

Yeah. Because we're, you know, we're recording this right after the Pittsburgh.

Yep.

Synagogue massacres and the two African American people who were killed and the, all of that is happening. That's the context that we're working in. And that doesn't like go away when people walk through the doors. It's present with us. So what can leaders do? Well, you know, the research that I've done shows that it isn't complicated on one level. It's not complicated that it's. That what people need is very simple. They need to be seen, they need to be acknowledged. They want to be, they want, you know, say hello. They want you to make eye contact with me when you walk in in the morning. Know my name.

Yeah.

Take a minute to find out a little bit about me and you know, remember to ask about how my kids baseball game went.

Right.

It's those little acts of kindness and respect. It's making room for my opinion at the table or you know, to make sure to not just, you know, hear the voices in a meeting that are the dominant voices, but to kind of clear the, you know, the way so that other voice voices can join the conversation. Yeah, that's all part of it too. So leaders can keep their word. You know, it's the little tiny, simple day to day acts like that. I'm trying to think of some of the other things that came out of the research. You know, it's also leaders valuing the health and the culture of the whole organization over perhaps the contribution of one person that might also be tearing down that culture.

So how do you deal with that? Because obviously if you have, you know, someone who's not on board with the ways of the company or, you know, perhaps they're even just, I don't know, spreading more ill than joy. Like how do you deal with that?

The dilemma, I think is when that person is your supposed biggest contributor. Yeah, they're the big star. And yet what it's hard for a leader to see is the, the impact, the impact, the negative impact that that's per. That that person's happening. We, you know, we can see, let's say it's somebody in sales. You can see the, the bottom line of what they're contributing, but you can't see the way they're draining the productivity of everyone else, the, you know, the way they're undermining culture and all, the cost of that. And so leaders have to, first of all, find ways to tap into that. They've got to find and cultivate relationships with people that will tell them the truth about what's really going on. And they've got to pursue it. They've got to want to know the truth.

Yeah.

About what's happening and then be willing to act. And that's a dicey thing because, you know, being willing. Be willing to act. You know, when we say to be, you know, we want to be human centered and loving, that doesn't mean just letting people get away with whatever. Right. But it also doesn't mean being brutal when we have to make hard decisions.

Right.

You know, it's handling those. Those interactions with compassion.

Yeah.

And respect. But it's also making the decision that's. That cares for all the humans, not just for the one in front of you.

Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, I think about my mom, you know. Yeah. Incredible act of love and kindness and compassion and whatnot. But, you know, later that day I probably came home and, you know, that I shouldn't have and I got corrected. Right. I mean, that's love. Right. Accountability. Sometimes, you know. Correction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what's the difference between, like, would you say love and like, friendship? You know?

Yeah.

Because, you know, like, what the parents would say, I'm not your friend, I'm your mom, you know, or something like that. Right.

So there's this definition of love that I landed on right now that has to do with having this limbic resonance or this limbic. It's about attachment and, you know, that's limbic center in our brain that allows us to connect with each other on a deep level. And then it creates this sense of connection and regard and care.

Yeah.

And then that. But that manifests then in a lot of different ways. And, you know, relationship to relationship, it looks different. So parent to child relationship is one kind of express. Has its own expressions of love. You know, spousal or partner relationships has another expression. Friends have another expression. Co workers have another expression. The person that you cross paths with on. In the crosswalk, on the street. There's another expression of love there. It's like it's all one.

It's just a smile. Hello, you know.

But that is an expression. Excuse me, of love for humanity.

Yeah.

For that person's humanity.

Yeah.

And there's a. That connection and attachment that we have with each other. We need each other to be neurophysiologically stable. If we aren't. If we don't have that, like, we can't. We're not. Well, that's why solitary confinement is so damaging.

Right.

So we need each other.

Something I've thought a lot about, have kids, you know, and thinking about even Gamba Academy in our. In our business, you know, 15 years from now, you know, with. With, say, millennials and all the rest of it rising up into the workforce. And, like, I do worry, you know, like, even with my own kids, you know, like, my daughters have cell phones, you know, and I can't remember the last time I've actually seen them place the phone to their ear and talk into it.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Like, what do you. What do you see happening with the next generation coming up as it relates to this topic and how they're interacting with one another in a far different way than what we are, you know, because we're. We're totally different. You know, we'll pick up the phone and call one another.

Yeah. You know, although you probably. I mean, you might too, you know. Yeah. So that we're all kind of drifting that way and, you know, I'm not sure, but the pendulum swing back and forth, and I don't think that this pendulum is going to swing and fall off the cliff, but I think that it's headed out there and we're going to hit something that is going to pull us back. And perhaps we're already in that moment. I think that this moment is about finding our way back to heart humanity. I think that that's. That's what we're in the middle of discovering. And, you know, how technology will play in or out, I don't know. I'm not a tech person. I'm not oriented toward that. But I do know that we tend to seek and find what we need when we need it. And I have hope that the pull of our humanity toward each other is stronger than our inhumanity.

For sure. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. So what are some final tips that you want to leave with folks, Renee, as far as, like, something they can do today. What can they do today? They're listening right now. They're in their car, they're on the treadmill. I don't know where they're at. That's one thing they can do today.

So part of the challenge of learning to put love in action is that there's no magic formula. There's some principles, you know, there's, you know, the kinds of things that we talked about. There's some big. The big idea. But then every day, each of us is going to encounter challenges. We're going to encounter these moments where we are faced with a choice. And that choice will ultimately be will we put fear in action or love in action? Will we be indifferent or will we be caring?

Yeah.

And part of what helps is just heightening our awareness that that's what we're doing, you know, and seeing those moments as key choices that we have to make. I can't give anybody a list of, here's the 10 things to do or, you know, when this happens, do that. But instead, we've got to continually sensitize ourselves to the fact that those choices are happening and that they matter. They matter to just people. To people, it matters because it's the right thing to do to other people.

Yeah.

But it also matters in the sense of being good for business, you know, and I don't want to be instrumental about this or, you know, just, you know, think of it as like, we only do this so we get good business results. But the good news is that being good to people, being kind, loving, caring, you know, treating people well.

Yeah.

Is good for business.

Yeah.

Because people will bring their very best when to do that. So I think my challenge to people is to think, you know, about the challenge that you might be facing today. It might be, I got a new employee coming on my team. How am I going to handle that? Am I going to be too busy, you know, to make time to sit down, have a cup of coffee, learn about them, you know, help them, make sure they've got the resources they need to get going, check in with them a few days later. That might be one thing. Maybe somebody on my team made a really big mistake. Maybe we got some kind of, you know, problem that happened and we've got to work our way through that. They've got to correct it or whatever. Am I going to blow up at them? Am I going to, you know, take them to task? Or am I going to let them know that, as my friend Rick Garza did at the Liquor and Cannabis Board? Am I going to let my team member know that we're here for you, we're family, and we're going to support.

You, you know, or pull a Toyota car and say, what did you learn?

Yes, exactly. There you go. Yeah. And then. Yeah. And then there's these, you know, learning. Exactly. Learning opportunities with team members and how we're gonna. We're gonna Ask questions and invest in their learning, or are we just gonna tell them what to do and, you know, get off to, you know, on to the next thing? So all kinds of, you know, little moments every day where we can.

One thing that I have always appreciated, the old classic, how to win friends and influence people with Dale Carnegie. Yes. Smile.

Yes.

You know, just smile. You know, like, go to the checkout line at the grocery store. Just smile and say thank you and look them in the eye. You know, I mean, just little things like that, I find, you know, make me feel better at least, you know, and hopefully it makes that person, you know, feel a little bit better, even if that moment. Absolutely.

Yeah. You know, I think one of the things that I would want to end with saying is that I really believe that leadership is. Is love in action. It's putting love in action. And that the, the higher up you go on the organizational chart as a leader, the greater your capacity and your ability to love has to be. And so wherever you are, you know that in your span is. Is your opportunity for love. And the higher up you go, the more love.

Yeah.

And that, you know, the width of love, if you will. If you think about, you know, picturing an org chart, all the boxes underneath you, all those directory pages towards, you know, caring about each of those human beings and understanding and knowing who they are. And then down into those organizations and they're. Each of those people are people that also need us to connect with them and to feel that they have relationship and that they're cared about from leadership up and from the organization. And then there's a complexity in the mess of, you know, of creating a loving environment when the system, if you will, when there's complex challenges, how do I, you know, deal with, you know, a process challenge in one area that's going to impact another area or even make up, you know, the kinds of complex challenges that we face. But there's. There's complexity. And so how do we as leaders handle that complexity in a way that cares for all the human beings? Yeah, I've used that system word a lot, but I just like to think about the whole. Right, yeah. Think of the whole. The bigger picture.

How can folks connect with you? Renee?

So a couple ways. My email is renee.smithove.wa.gov and through the website, I think through makeworkmorehuman.com is another good way they can sign up for the blog there and learn more about what we're doing.

And when you move the blog into the thing, will that URL still work?

We haven't decided yet. I think so. I think that it will probably direct back to.

Okay, well, we'll put this in the show notes. So Gambapodcast.com I don't have any idea what the number is going to be for this episode, so look for Renee Smith. It'll be towards the top. Gambapodcast.com and we'll, we'll link to everything. Renee, thank you. Maybe we'll get another update next year. AME Something like that. I don't know. So I think it's fun to stay in touch.

Yeah, it is. You know, I, I want to say too, one of the things that we have so I'm here this week, next week in the state of Washington to give you a flavor of what's happening in government. Next week we will have on November 6th and 7th in our convention center in Tacoma, our Washington State Government lean Transformation Conference, seventh annual. There will be more than 2,000 public servants for two days learning about continuous improvement. AME yeah, I think we might have more.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so, and there's people coming from other parts of the country to join in that and from all levels of government. Really good things are happening in government. Government cares. We're working to make it better.

Thank you so much for everything you're doing.

Hey, thank you.

Thanks for joining me today. Okay. Take care.

Thanks.

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