GA 245 | How to Coach Leaders to Coach Others with Jamie Parker

I grew up in an environment where I learned how to manage and specifically through authority. I certainly did not value people. Basically, people were just there to do what I needed them to do so that I could hit the numbers I wanted to hit. And I was successful from a standpoint of being promoted.

Today I'm excited to welcome Jamie Parker back to the show. Now, Jamie has been on the podcast several times, so rather than name off all the different episodes, I'm going to point you to the show notes for this particular episode, which will be at episode 245. During the episode, Jamie and I explore how she coaches leaders through a specific transition. Now, once you listen to the full thing, you'll understand what I mean by that. Now Jamie also introduces what she calls the 5C model. Now, Jamie is one of my all time favorite lean thinkers and I always enjoy chatting with her. Show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode two, 245. Again gembapodcast.com and look for episode 245. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Jamie Parker, welcome back to the show.

Thank you, Ron. I'm so excited to be here.

Yeah. Yeah. So I had a good conference.

Yeah, it's been a great conference.

Yeah. I said, I saw talk to some AME folks. I said yesterday, this is the second day here for folks listening. Probably one of my favorite AME days, like ever. You know, the energy was super good. I mean, I think Dune's podcast has been pretty epic. I mean, Mike Rother interviewed me. I mean, how does that even happen? You know what I mean?

Okay. Did you go write in your diary? Guess what happened today?

Yeah, the guy that like started off my career from his books is, you.

Know, I met my hero. I was interviewed by my hero.

Yeah. I mean, really, it was. It's just crazy.

Yeah. Wonderful.

Then cocktail party.

Cocktail party.

Have you been to every cocktail party that we've done?

So Jacksonville would have been my first one.

Yeah.

It was that your first cocktail party?

That was our first one, Yes.

I have been to all of them.

Yeah.

I guess I make the circuit.

Yeah.

Of Gimbal Academy. AME cocktail party.

Oh my gosh, that was so much fun. So much for everybody listening. Next year is in Chicago, so go ahead and sign up now.

Well, and I'll tell you, I think I told you this last night is, you know, your cocktail party is one of my favorite parts of this conference because it really is more of a community and it takes it from the, you know, 1500 people, bringing it down to the smaller, you know, however, few hundred. I don't know how many people ended up coming.

Yeah, we thought about 350 is kind of what the estimates are right now.

And so you've got a smaller group, but it's also some of the same people who've been on the podcast who have done webinars. Maybe you are clients of yours. And so now you have this shared experience.

Yeah.

And so it just takes it from this big conference that can sometimes feel a little overwhelming. Who do I talk to? Where do I go? What do I say?

Yeah.

Down to something that just feels like community.

Yeah.

So I love it. One of my favorite, favorite things of the week, for sure.

Awesome. Thank you. All right, well, let's jump right into. Jamie, you know the drill. You've been on several times, so you have to start with a quote. So do you have one?

Yeah. So I will share a quote that's been really meaningful for me recently, particularly with some of the work that I've been doing with leaders. And that is a quote from Matt Wyatt, who actually works at Barry Wehmiller Leadership Institute. So he teaches there. And so something that he shared with me is that trust is a generative act. You have to give it to receive it. And so that really stands out to me when I'm working with leaders in particular, because if you go onto Google and Google quotes about trust, you get quote after quote after quote about earning trust, and trust needs to be earned, and then once you lose it, it's gone. Right. And so it just has this connotation that it's really difficult to get, and there's a lot of burden on me to earn it from you and not lose it and then not lose it, and then I got to keep it. Yeah. And so it just feels like there's a lot of pressure when you're thinking about leadership, though, and particularly in lean and respect for people. Like, that's not what. That doesn't feel good to me when we think about trust. Right. That doesn't feel good at all. And so this idea that trust is a generative act. And so as a leader, we give it first. We don't wait for someone to earn it from us.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's just really meaningful.

Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, so, Jamie, for the folks who don't know who you are or haven't listened to previous episodes, give us a little bit about background, how you first came to learn about continuous improvement. Tell us about maybe your kind of corporate career and then what you've transitioned to the last few years here.

Yeah, I would love to. So I would tell you, Ron, and all of your listeners, I am a recovering command and control manager. Okay. You know, I grew up in an environment where I learned how to manage and specifically through authority. I certainly did not value people. It was. I mean, basically, people were just there to do what I needed them to do so that I could hit the numbers I wanted to hit. And I was successful from a standpoint of being promoted. I don't think I would consider myself successful today if I, you know, if I thought about what. What happened and how I treated people. Yeah. And so that was what started my management career, the way I was leading initially. And when I was really introduced to Lean initially, about, I guess about seven or eight years ago, it was, you know, it was that tool stuff. It was a lot of tool focus, and things just weren't really sticking. You know, we were getting improvement, but, I mean, man, it was hard. We were muscling through. And that's when I really started digging in to try and figure out why. And at the same time that that was happening, I was going through a personal leadership transformation, kind of having this, you know, quarter life crisis and, like, what is my purpose and realizing how much impact I was having with people in my sp. A span of care.

Yeah.

And so I was digging in heavy on the leadership side and the respect for people side and this kind of the servant component. And through that, I went through a leadership transformation myself and then realized that that was the piece missing in our Lean transformation.

Talk about that transformation, your transformation.

So for me, I will tell you that Simon Sinek had a. Had a big part in it because at the Jacksonville AME is the closing keynote, and he did his leaders eat last.

Do you remember how he started that? I'll never forget it. They introduce him, right? And he comes, he walks on, and he walks kind of to the middle of the stage, and he kind of stops, and he kind of looks down at the ground. He put his hands together, and he kind of started rubbing his palms together. And he just stood there, and I was like, oh, my gosh, he's frozen. He doesn't know what to say for like four or five seconds. And everybody's like, what's going on? And then all of a sudden, he starts into that epic story or whatever.

You know, bravo and everything else.

Gosh, what a beginning.

How about that? He created the tension.

Yes.

He created the tension that he then got to relieve, which is great. Yeah. So, I mean, that was definitely a big part of it. I had already actually. I was really talking with Steve Cain and Kevin Meyer from your team, kind of leading into Jacksonville in the several months. So kind of informal mentors for me. So, I mean, I was on a search, on a quest, and all of these things were just coming together at the same time. And along with, you know, conversation I had with my boss at the time where I said, like, hey, I thought I was going to do something bigger than this. You know, I work at FedEx office. I manage print shops. It just. I feel like that's. I haven't achieved this greatness that I thought I was destined for, you know, and he starts saying, well, let's talk about your impact with Jorge. Let's talk about your impact with Vince. And, I mean, I think today probably what. What really motivates me and drives me is that those people will say, hey, you know what? I'm a better person. I'm a better father because of the work we've done together.

Yeah.

And so this impact. We so underestimate the impact that we have on other people.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I. Yesterday we had an interview with. With. With. With Renee, and she. I was telling her the story about how. How I was a young man in seventh grade, and this. This high school, big high schooler kid befriended me and really helped me with a lot of anxiety and struggles I had, you know, and, like, showed me, like, how just a simple act of kindness can really turn people around. You know, like, you just never, never really know the impact you can have on people's lives.

Absolutely. Another one, if that's something of interest, is Drew Dudley's lollipop moments. He calls them lollipop moments, Everyday leadership, where he tells a story about, you know, being in college, and he was, I think, a senior. And this freshman orientation, you know, here's this freshman, and, you know, he has this interaction he doesn't remember at all. But, you know, now the freshman is graduating and reaches out to say that moment. That's what changed, you know, because I wasn't gonna stay. I wasn't. I was gonna go back home and not stay. And that moment, that lollipop moment, he's like, I don't even know who you are. I have no idea what you're talking about. So, I mean, we just. Things that seem so insignificant to us, which is why, from a leadership perspective, it's so important, because it's not in the big Things.

Yeah.

It's the everyday little things. It's what our. What is the culmination of all of our experiences and all of our interactions. And so turning what we do every day.

Yeah.

That's really what we have to do to change how we lead our teams and create these environments where people will just be all in all engaged and ready to come together as a team.

So talk a little bit about. So you FedEx office for gosh, how many years were you there?

Oh, 17 years.

17 years. You know, obviously you've transitioned out of that role. Talk. Not asking anything personal here, but talk a little bit about that transition. What was that like? You know, 17 years of getting a paycheck every couple weeks and, you know, I know.

And then I kind of did the bold step.

Yeah.

And said, what am I doing? You know what it was. I did a lot of reflection going into the holidays. November, December, January, kind of that timeframe, you know, how to have a word of the year and my five ways of being and all of those things that were. Even before I was considering leaving FedEx office, I just wanted to have more purpose and intention about what 2018 was gonna look like for me. And so I'd done that, you know, and I've got my vision board. I mean, the whole thing. Yeah. And, you know, then it was kind of getting to a point of, well, what's next for me?

Yeah.

And I had found this passion of helping leaders better serve their. Their teams and create environments that are just primed for employee fulfillment. So I'd found this passion, but it's kind of boxed in in how I could impact. Right. How I could serve in that way. And so I started looking for how. What is another way that I could have a bigger impact and serve more people. And so when I started. Started looking about, looking at that, thinking about it, you know, I had these ways of being things like audacious. Right. And authentic and connected. These are my ways of being for this year. And, you know, that's when it was like, okay, that's where I found the courage to take such a bold step just to go out on your own. And it's every emotion. Every week, I have every emotion. And I will go from, like, swing. So I have to do a lot of self coaching.

Yeah.

And it's so interesting. They say, you know, a lot of times people say that you. You teach what you need help with the most, you know, that, like, what you need in your life is what is where the passion comes to teach something. And, you know, I teach a lot about, you know, failing forward and.

Yeah.

You know, how we. How we need to change and process plus results. I mean, I named my. Or a company process plus results. Right. To say, hey, it's not all about the outcome.

Yeah.

And so that's what I have to self coach myself on.

Yeah.

Is that I look at that result. Well, what was the result? Did I get the contract? Did I, you know, have people enroll in this program? Or how many did I hit my goal and kind of going back and saying, oh, my goodness, but what about the courage that it showed?

Yeah.

Right. What did I learn? And so I have to self coach all the time, which probably helps me better serve clients as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Because you know, what you're experiencing, they experience as well.

Yes.

So you've been there, right?

Yeah.

All right, well talk a little bit about the difference between kind of leadership coaching from within, maybe a corporate environment to, you know, being more as an external type consultant. What's the difference?

Yeah, talk about that. So I think that, you know, kind of internally, in a corporate environment, obviously, you know, what the culture is, you know, kind of the rules of engagement.

Yeah.

And there's usually a longer history. Right. So, you know, there's something that, here's the program, here's the training. We put people through, whatever. There's some level of history. And so there's this kind of greater context. And when I worked to start. Went to start working with other organizations, you know, the organizations I'm working with, they don't have necessarily, you know, the context of the model. Right. So I tend to work with companies that are under $100 million in revenue. So they don't always have, as, you know, dedicated people in learning and development. Dedicated people, you know, beyond kind of basic HR functions. And so because of that, you know, they're kind of looking for, well, but how. What's the path?

Yeah.

And so that's where I was able to kind of build out some models.

Yeah.

To be able to provide the path. Okay. Where, you know, kind of internally, I don't know, because you've been a part of it and you've been walking the path with them. Yeah. It just. It feels like it's already laid out a little bit.

Yeah.

And then here it's okay. I'm working with. With clients and organizations who, they know they want to do something differently, they know they want to get different results. They know that there's something missing. They're just not quite sure what and how.

So speak to that person. Right. Now listening to this saying, yeah, you know, we need help, you know, like what's your, what advice do you have for folks who are, who are struggling with a variety of issues? Leadership. It could be operational. Could be, yeah. What are some tips you have for folks?

Well, I think so. For me, what I've seen is probably the biggest gap is what we're missing is we tend to have this problem or this issue that we want to address and we kind of jump to the systems or the tools. So let's take problem solving for example, because I do a lot of work with helping develop teams of problem solvers. And so people will jump to, you know, oh, we're going to do kata coaching and kata routines, or we're going to do a 3s or we're going to do, you know, two second lead or we're going to have gimbal walks and raise and solve problems. And so they jump to that and then some time passes, we're muscling through, muscling through. And either they're not getting the roi, the return that they were expecting the results, or it just kind of becomes the wallpaper. Right. We all have wallpaper in our, in our environments. So it doesn't work that way just to jump to systems.

Yeah.

And so yes, if you have this Venn diagram with systems, beliefs and behaviors because the behaviors have to be there in order for the systems to sustain. But belief drives behavior. So a lot of times we try to change our behavior, but it's going against a core belief. So for example, I really struggled command and control days, especially with giving recognition and particularly saying thank you and this behavior, this is what I appreciate. Everybody said, you know what, you always tell us what's, what we're doing wrong.

Yeah.

But you never tell us what we're doing. Right.

Yeah.

And I mean, I tried all kinds of things. I tried gratitude practices, I tried having a list and hash marking. You know, HR is like, oh, you need to do the penny trick. You put 10 pennies in your right pocket and every time you give recognition, you move one to your left pocket. Your goal is to get all 10 to the left.

Yeah.

But none of those would work because at the end of the day I actually had some core beliefs which was I didn't need to recognize you for just doing your job. Yeah, right.

Yeah.

And if I give you too much recognition, then you're going to get complacent or the best way to solve a problem is to close the gap. So what we need to talk about is the Gap.

Yeah.

Right. So these are. These were just kind of beliefs that I held.

Yeah.

And so it didn't matter what behavior I tried, I could never get it to stick.

Yeah.

And so we do the same thing organizationally, where we have underlying shared beliefs that don't align. So we say, oh, we want to raise problems, raise and solve problems. But in reality, people believe that I might get in trouble if I have a failure. And so I don't want to raise that problem. I want to kind of sweep it under the rug so you can have your system. It's not going to work because we haven't addressed that underlying issue, which is, I don't believe that you really want to know. Or you say we blame the process, not the person. But when something happens, then, you know, I'm embarrassed in front of my peers. Yeah.

You mentioned Simon, you know, and obviously, big purpose, find your why and all the rest of it. Where do you see that kind of purpose and say, like, beliefs, how do they interact?

Yeah. You know, it's. I mean, purpose is the big thing. Right. It's that big umbrella.

Yeah.

And that's important because this stuff is hard. Right. And so without it, it's easy to give up.

Yeah.

And we need something that kind of pushes us through and drives us through. So when it's really hard and like, oh, my gosh, I really don't want to do all of this really hard work developing people. I really just want to solve their problem and move on because it's easier that way. Then we need a purpose, a big umbrella that says, wait a minute, this is why.

Yeah.

You know, so for me, when I get a note that says, hey, you know, you've helped me become a person that I'm proud of, or, you know, I'm not just a better leader, I'm a better father because of the work we've done together, that tells me, okay, this isn't about the problem solving or the development or the lean implementation. There's something so much bigger.

Yeah.

And that can then help you overcome some of those other beliefs that might be holding you back.

Yeah. What do you do if you encounter someone who you. I don't know, the belief of the, say, the. I don't know, like, leadership doesn't align with the. The workforce. Like, how do you. What do you do there?

So, I mean, I think, first of all, it's great to realize it. Right.

So, yeah.

One of the things that I do recommend people do is to say, okay, what are. What are our stated values? You know, there's probably a poster of them somewhere.

Yeah, yeah. These are our core values, mission and values.

So go find that.

You know some acronym.

Right. This is. These are our values. This is who we say we are.

Yeah.

And then kind of observe and figure out. Okay. But what actually happens? What's reality? And where you have the gap.

Yeah.

That's where you probably have underlying beliefs that aren't aligned. And they're probably from past experiences, probably.

Because of the behaviors of leadership. Right.

It's all a big intersection. And this, you know, it's not a 1, 2, 3, sequential situation.

It's like a web. It is, yeah.

So if you want to change that, then. Yes. We have to change our words, what we say and what we do.

Yeah.

So that. Then that belief can. Can actually change along with it. So you can't just say, oh, yeah, this is our new belief.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, of course.

Say what you do, do what you say kind of thing.

Absolutely. And repeatedly. Not one or two times. Going back to those. It's the. It's the small interactions that people remember.

Yeah.

It's that time that you rolled your eyes. It's the time that you. Yeah, right.

Or I look at your phone when I'm tired, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So talk just a little bit about problem solving. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on problems because it's, you know, depending on who you talk to, there's a number of ways to go about it. I'm just curious to get your. Your 2 cents on. On how you want to coach your folks to, you know, be better problem solvers or scientific thinkers, whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, absolutely. This is one of my favorite topics. It's actually what I did a workshop on this week. So I'm glad you brought that up. And, you know, I would say that I don't advocate for a specific system. So I don't say kata is the way to go or a three is the way to go, or PDSA versus domain. Like, to me, the system itself is less relevant than having a methodology of some sort. You want to have something that can create shared language, so you need a system. But which one? I don't think there's a right answer. Right. Pick one, because then you can have shared language. I think it's more about transitioning. So many of us, particularly managers or lean practitioners who kind of run in our circles, we tend to be above average problem solvers, or at least we're better than our frontline teams. And that might even be how we got into our role how we were promoted in the first place. And so we cannot help ourselves from jumping in and giving answer.

Stealing the monkey.

We do, absolutely. We'll steal the monkey. We give the answer. We're the answer guy. Or you know, we tried to, you know, let them do it. Except we haven't done the first steps of developing their capabilities. So I had a manager I was partnering with who really believed in people, centric leadership, truly human, I mean, just all in with it. And so it was all empowering, you know. So this is a problem in your work. You guys make the decision of how we're going to handle it and how we're going to problem with solve. But they didn't have the skill yet. Yeah. And so they would do things like add in batching. Right. So they're adding all these process ways. He's like, wait, this isn't, I thought empowerment was supposed to work.

Right.

And that's because it's not just a one step thing. So I talk about five levers, okay. To transition from kind of being the primary problem solver to developing a team of problem solvers.

Okay.

And I call them the five Cs.

Okay.

Makes it easier, five Cs. So the first is to cultivate a safe environment first. Before you can have problem solving, you have to have problem raising. And you need psychological safety, you need a safe environment to do that. And then if you want people to innovate and take some risks, then you have to have a safe environment. So that's kind of the first lever. The second lever is to create learning experiences. So in a lot of respects this is a new or different way of thinking than what is the natural state. Which means you can't just start doing. There has to be some sort of learning. And I really like to teach that. That's where we need to get just in time. Apply just in time to our learning experiences. So, right. We have the all week long lean 101 class. How much of that are they actually able to do? Yeah, it's. It's too much.

Yeah.

So we get to really go just apply just in time. What do you, what do they need right now? What can they use right now and how do they need to get it right? So that's really important.

Okay.

Then it's construct practice opportunities because we've all had some sort of learning experience and we have great intentions and we go back to our day jobs and then what happens? Like everybody here at this conference right now, how much of what they think they're going to do. Will they actually.

Do they get back to their 200 unread emails?

Absolutely. Yeah. And that happens to our frontline teams too.

Yeah.

And so we almost have to manufacture the practice opportunities.

Yeah.

So let's say you had something. You say you were teaching root cause analysis right now and maybe five why Maybe five why is the methodology you were using and you have some, some classes, some simulations. We do some, you know, why is the milk spoiled? Whatever. Right. We do some of that and we say, oh, now when a problem comes up, then we'll use it.

Yeah.

Guess what? Yeah. It never, never happens. Right, Right. And so you have to kind of manufacture it does.

We don't have time to do that. We just gotta fix it.

Yeah. So it's being very deliberate of like, yeah, I'm kind of making these up or I mean I'm making up reasons and excuses and ways to practice.

Yeah.

Then we get into the fourth lever which is to coach improvement and problem solving. And this is really different because it's all about asking good coaching questions.

Coach improvement and what?

Problem solving.

Okay. I'm taking notes here for the.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so this is, I actually did a webinar covering a little bit of this with you recently. And so this is idea of. To me a good question is open ended. It's non leading and non judgmental.

Yeah.

And that sounds like common sense. Until you try to do it.

Yeah.

And when you try to do it, I mean it's so difficult. And the biggest tip I have about this is that particularly lean practitioners, managers, followers. Right. We love to ask diagnostic fact finding questions. Right.

Give me an example.

So I'll use a non work example. So here's one I'll always do is so how long have you had these symptoms? That sounds like a good question. Right. I mean it's, you know, diagnostic, it's. There's no judgment. I'm not leading you anywhere.

Right, right, right.

Challenge is twofold. First of all, there's context. So going back to all those experiences we've talked about, when my mom asks me that question, she is not asking me how long I've had those symptoms. She's asking me why haven't you gone to the doctor yet? Right. She's southern, she does it really nicely, but that's what she's doing.

Yeah.

So there's context. So sometimes our past experiences with our team says there they interpret. It's not about what your intent is, it's about their perception of your intent.

Yeah.

The second thing is When I do go to the doctor and the doctor asks me that question, am I offended?

No.

No. Why not? Why is he asking me that question?

It's their job.

It's their job to do what?

To help you.

Because they want to diagnose and write the prescription. Right. They want to, they want to diagnose and give me the answer.

Yeah.

I'm okay with that when I go to the doctor because I'm going to this expert to solve my problem for me.

Right.

When we are coaching problem solver, we're not the doctor, we're more like the psychiatrist versus the physician. Right.

That's good.

You know, where we're jumping into our old ways. If we start asking diagnostic questions, so.

What'S a better, better way?

So a better way might be to ask something like, so what facts have you uncovered so far? What other facts have you uncovered? What facts do you think you still need to uncover? And what you're doing is you're transitioning the thought process of what do I need to ask to diagnose this from me as the coach to you as the learner. And so I'm helping you think through.

Yeah.

Well, what, well, what questions should I ask? What facts do I need to uncover?

Yeah.

Versus you just answering the ones I give you.

Yeah.

So that's, I mean there's others as well.

Yeah.

Like lots of tips. I mean we can talk. We could do this for hours. Like I could sit here for hours. But that's probably the one that as I've gone out and worked with clients on this and taught, you know, even the workshop here on Monday, that's the one that, that really trips everybody up.

Okay.

Is the. But, but I want to know. Solve it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me fix it.

Yeah.

What's the fifth one?

And then the last one is to celebrate the process. So if you want to. So if your team is going to become more effective problem solvers, that doesn't happen, you know, in one or two tries.

Yeah, right.

It's a lot of falling down, getting back up, learning something, trying again, falling down again, getting back up. And so if we want people to do that, we have to celebrate that process and that part. So we have to celebrate, you know, hey, I really appreciate that you raised this problem. When you raise this problem, it gave us awareness so that we can now start working on it. Right. Versus alright, you got the answer. You solved the problem correctly. When you get to the end.

Yeah. What happens if you don't do number five?

Well, if you don't then you probably aren't going to get the participation.

Okay.

Right. So. Because then it's, then it's results. So I'm, I may stick in a smaller box. I'm not going to take as many risks.

Yeah.

I may give you some 2 second improvements. I'll move the trash can from here to there.

Right.

But I'm not going to, you know, go into the harder problems that we really need to work on.

Yeah. What about. I have another question for you. Just kind of a random question. Where do you see the importance of leaders being comfortable with being vulnerable?

Oh, I think it's so critical. So critical. Because it comes back to the trust situation. Right.

Yeah.

Is that there's something about connection and connection requires me being vulnerable, but then it also requires me really listening from a place of empathy and not from a place of, you know, kind of. Let me jump in. Right. So have you seen the, you know, it's not about the nail video. Right. I mean, this is kind of classic what I think about from the listening perspective with empathy. When you think about empathy.

Yeah.

But you know, I, we're asking people to do really hard things, new things and I needed, I need to show them that I mess up to.

Yeah.

Right. And so I actually encourage you to be very transparent.

Yeah.

And so if you're going to start doing some of these activities to go and tell your team, hey, we're going to. I'm learning a new coaching skill and I'm probably going to fall down and mess up a lot. I'm always going to tell you when we're coaching problem solving versus, you know, just kind of starting to do it and asking you all these questions and now you're irritated because I keep asking you what about this? Right. Whatever. So I just think that the more transparency is, it gives more clarity.

Yeah.

Right. And so now I don't have to wonder, well, which Ron am I getting today?

Yeah.

Which Ron is showing up now? I don't have to because you're telling me. Yeah, here's what I'm doing. I talk about setting your intention when I interact with you right now. Is it because I'm going to. I want to coach you? Is it because I want to connect and I really want to listen with empathy. Am I coming to teach you something? Am I coming to direct you? I need to direct you. All of those things are fine. There are times that we do need to direct.

Yeah.

There are times that we need to give both correcting and reinforcing feedback, which is telling.

Yeah.

But what happens is we kind of mix them all up. Yeah. And so then team members are left being confused.

Yeah.

And so now it's like, I don't, I don't know.

Yeah.

I don't know how to, how to react or what I'm supposed to do or. Now I don't trust you.

Yeah.

Because I don't know what you're trying to get from me right now. Yeah.

So what do you. So we're here at AME right now in San Diego. Next year, Chicago. What do you think? And then I think after Chicago, I think it's Toronto. I think after that. So let's fast forward to Toronto.

Okay.

We're standing at the Gambit Academy booth doing a podcast and we're, we're reflecting on the last few years. What do you think is going to happen with this lean movement of ours? Where do you see it going?

So I think so we kind of had this tools thing and then we got into culture and people. People and culture. And it felt a little bit like a pendulum. Right. Kind of from here to there, swinging from one side to the next. So for me, what I see is that I think that our continuous improvement practitioners and the lean office and all of those folks probably need to transition to being less about projects and process improvement and more about leadership coaching. So if you think about how do we really get this movement to have a greater, bigger impact and more value in our organizations, it comes down to the people who are the leaders and the managers kind of in the field or in your operations or in your accounting department. You know, whatever it is that you do is those people that have the most interaction and impact with the people that do the work. Right. So the people that, the frontline teams that are doing the work every day. And so we want to change that, then we have to go to the team lead, the supervisor, the plant manager, kind of that. Those that range, that mid level manager and say, okay, these are the people that have the everyday small occurrences. It's not about your Kaizen event. It's not even about that five. Why? It's not even about your daily meeting, your stand up meeting. Yeah, those are. Yes, those count. But so do the. I'm passing you in the hallway and say something or you know, we're having some sort of training or coaching development. Yeah, all of those count too. And so I think that the people who are supporting those folks are probably going to need to transition.

Yeah.

To be better at developing and coaching those leaders.

What do you see then? If we fast forward even say 10 years. And many of these millennials who, you know, a lot of us are critical of, you know, we find everything that's wrong with them. But the fact is they are the future. Right. They are coming up and they will be running our companies here in the next, whatever, 10, 15, 20 years. They communicate much differently. You know, they value things that are different than, you know, people that are in leadership positions now. Like, where do you see, not necessarily just lean, but just, I don't know, the corporate environment. Like, how do you see that looking in the future?

You know, that's an interesting question because.

Phones or will everybody just be texting each other?

I don't know. First of all, I think we sometimes forget that millennials are not as young as we think they are. Right. Like, I think I'm a couple years out from being classified. And so sometimes we think millennials, oh, these 22 year old, that's not the case. They're 35 now. So they're already starting to reach into more senior level roles in our organizations. And I think that there's a really great opportunity as you kind of have this changing of the guard and as maybe. Right. So let me back up for a second. I think you've probably heard more than once somebody say, this is all great, but my CEO doesn't do lean or doesn't like continuous improvement or what. Right. They're, they're the results. Only traditional.

Yeah.

So, I mean, that's probably the thing I hear the most. If I come to a conference, the number one thing people are going to say is, well, but how do I get my executive team on board? So that's the changing of the guard. As those folks start to retire. And we have people who kind of come up with being more willing to take risks, kind of really being open to. More open to change, almost wanting change, and also being more purpose driven in general. And I think as that changing of the guard happens, it's going to do two things. One is really create an opportunity for more than just a casual shift in how our organizations operate. Right. Like, I think the shift could be pretty radical. And then second, we also have the opportunity to see where those gaps really are, because there are some really awesome strengths that come with, you know, being risk takers and, you know, purpose driven and all that. But then there are always gaps that come too, and I think those are going to kind of be highlighted a little bit more.

Yeah.

Because now they're in senior level positions that they haven't been in. And the impact of Those small decisions. Right. Like the whim, the whim of oh well, let's just go do this. And so they may have to figure out how do we be a little bit more deliberate. But I think we'll have some faster changing organizations, maybe won't be as slow to turn the boat.

Yeah, we've had a lot of connection with Dale Crown over at Texas Nameplate over this last year or so and, and he's, he's, they're very passionate about sustainability, you know, and claiming that they believe this is, this is the next big thing even for our lean movement. That again, because that's a really important aspect of what many of these younger folks are, are super passionate about. So I think that's going to be really interesting to, to watch, you know.

Yes, for sure.

Yeah. So good, good, good. So last thing, tell people a little bit about definitely how to connect with you, Jamie, but tell them a little bit more about like what you're up to these days, what, what help you might be able to bring them.

Yeah, absolutely. So you know, I am running my own consulting and coaching practice which is super exciting. And I work with both with organizations and also with individual leaders as well who are looking at how do we move beyond kind of this ad hoc tool implementation to having a more sustainable, really kind of not just a methodology but culture of continuous improvement and doing that through, specifically through impacting our leaders. So anything from you know, C suite. But a lot of really my passion is that middle manager because I grew. I think those people are, have the biggest impact in a lot of ways on the day, you know, all the day to day stuff and the culture stuff but actually have the least amount of investment in them. Right. You know, executives get their coaches, first time supervisors go through some sort of class and you have this whole group that gets so little development. So I work with folks like that and I help organizations both on, you know, I'll come in and do on site, I do virtual implementation support. So it's not just training and development, it's also kind of implementation practice, execution support. And then I'm also starting some virtual leadership development programs that would allow people to go through the five C's. Right. We're going to work through the five C's over a 12 week time frame. So it's really making it more accessible.

Yeah.

And so I'm really excited about that as well.

How can they best find you?

So you can find me on LinkedIn which is Jamie V. Parker. V, like Victoria.

Is there another Jamie Parker out there? Without a V. Well, there are lots.

Of Jamie Parker's out there actually.

Okay.

Including this actor.

Okay.

About my age. So I know when I was in high school, everybody's like laughing because Jamie Parker. Really? I never heard of him. Okay. Yes. So, yeah, there are a lot of Jamie Parker. So I had in the V. Okay. And then my, my website is process plus results.

P, L, U S. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Got it, got it, got it. All right, well, good stuff. Thank you for, for coming on. It's great to see you as always.

Oh, I love it. Thank you.

You need to get out to like cotton and some of these other ones as well. You know, TWI summit and all that. I think you'd really connect with those folks out there too.

Yeah, that would be super exciting. I've done a few smaller ones like Iowa and Colorado and I've done some industry specific. So the printing industry in particular. I've done several things with them.

But yeah, what I always say about these, like, like this is the Mecca. Right?

Right.

Big giant here, you know, with thousands of folks running around and it's great. What I like, sometimes I like about the smaller ones like Kataka and Twi. Some of these ones, it's like maybe 2, 300 people, but they're like fanatics.

Yes.

You know what I mean? So it's kind of almost. It's in a way more intense.

Right.

Because you're not. You're going to walk and anybody you see, they're going to be like, hey, you know, kind of. And you have these like intense conversations, right?

Yes. Well, I can tell you, when I was at the Iowa Lean Consortium conference last week, I was doing a 75 minute presentation on the the art of asking good coaching questions. So basically C4 is what I was teaching on. And I think they had 108 chairs in there. Probably had to bring in about 50 more. Yeah, people were sitting on the floor standing up for that 75 minute presentation because like, hey, we want to get this information.

Iowa's interesting, that place, man. I've been to a couple conferences over there and it's like, what's going on in the state, man? These people are like after getting after it. Pebble Windows is over there. Yeah, there's some really strong companies.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I think, unfortunately we had to go in like February or something.

It's October now. It's much better. Yeah.

Awesome. All right, well, thanks again, Jamie.

All right, thank you.

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