GA 249 | Lean in Thailand, China, and India with John Chacon

A successful transformation into practicing lean is going to come from its own people. And I knew that to begin with, and I really wanted to skip some sins of the past, you know, that I've experienced. I wanted to take that approach, and that's what we've done today.

I'm excited to welcome John Chacon back to the show. Now, John first came on the show back in December of 2016 and back in episode 140, and there we talked about, really, John's transition from the Marines into the civilian world. So that was a fun episode. And today I wanted to just basically catch back up with John and see what's been going on since he last came onto the show. And we had a really fun talk, really kind of exploring a situation many folks encounter, and that is going from one company to another. And both companies are practicing continuous improvement at different levels. And so how do you match the two? When you go from one and you think everything's got to be done that way, you go to a new company and you learn it's not done that way. So we cover that. And then John actually does a great job kind of talking about his interactions overseas. In particular, he's been to Thailand, China, and India, rolling out lean in those countries. And so we had a really, really good chat about that, and I think you're going to enjoy the show. The show notes for this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 249. You can also check out a fully functional Gemba Academy trial over@gembacademy.com okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, John, welcome back to the show. How's it going, man?

Good, Ron. Thanks for having me, man. How's it going?

Yeah, really good. Really good. Yeah. So I was looking up before we started, you were on the show, we were chatting, and you were like, yeah, about a year ago when you were on. I'm like, oh, okay, a year ago. So I went and looked, and actually, it's more like two years ago, my man. It was December 2016, the last time you were on episode 140.

Yeah. You know, I sincerely thought it was about a year, but that really sums up how fast things have been going. That, you know, what felt like a year ended up being a couple of years. So that's right on par there.

Yeah, time flies when you're having fun, right?

Exactly.

All right, well, good stuff. All right, well. Well, it's not your first rodeo here on the podcast, John, so, you know how we like to get things going. Like to start with a quote. So you do have one?

Yes, yes, I do. It's. It's my new favorite. It's a African proverb, and it is, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And that one there really kind of struck me as sometimes what happens when you're practicing continuous improvement as practitioners. You know, we know that we can improve things really quick and, you know, we can just kind of go and do lean to people and rather if we go together and, you know, we have that respect for people and we're allowing people to come to their own understandings and their own leanings, their own understanding of what lean or continuous improvement is, then we can get farther together. So I heard that one, and I just really love that one and kind of keep that one close to the chest.

All right, very good, Very good. So, John, in case people haven't listened to episode 140, and I definitely encourage everyone to go back because I remember that was a really fun episode. Talked about your times in the Marines and all the rest of it. So. But guess in case folks haven't heard that, tell us a little bit about who you are. Tell us about your background and then how you first came to learn about all this continuous improvement stuff.

Sure, yeah. My name's John, and I've been practicing lean for about 13, I think I'm going into my 14th year. First introduced to it in Japan when I was serving in the United States Marine Corps. After that, you know, kind of readjusted and found an opportunity to practice lean in the civilian side of things with an industrial engineering and construction company. I was able to get myself acquainted there and saw some really big differences with, you know, practicing lean in a military, very disciplined and structured setting versus, you know, going to a construction company and really having to lead folks to understand what we're trying to do, you know, what does it mean to improve, how does this help us in the big grand scheme of things? So that's a lot of what we learned, learned a lot to do with, you know, top down approaches versus bottom up approaches and what aligning yourself to strategy and kind of a true north perspective can really do for your overall efforts.

And where are you at these days, John?

I'm still at Black and Veatch. I did transition from Air Energy like two and a half, three years ago.

Yeah, I remember. We talked about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it was a tough transition. You know, Air Energy is one of those companies that you know, that you almost take for granted how the continuous improvement culture has already been ingrained. And, you know, so there's, there's things going on like, you know, leader standard work, you know, practicing, you know, eight step practical problem solving method. It's not new, it's not new to them. You know, so there's a lot of discipline, a lot of work that's already gone in to a culture that's like air Energy. So transitioning from that, you know, I knew that it was going to be a change, but I didn't quite understand how big of a change it was going to be going to Black and Vegas. And so, you know, one of the best compliments I was given on my exit from Air energy is, you know, John, you made lean and continuous improvement simple. And I, you know, I was feeling pretty good and I was like, all right, you know, that's probably one of the best compliments that you could get. You know, I mean, in my eyes. And then a couple of weeks later, I get to Black and Beach and I get some feedback like, Johnny, you're making this kind of complicated. I was like, oh my gosh, almost like that the compliment to begin with. But yeah, you know, what I really learned from that was you have to adjust to your audience. You know, just because ERA was at their, you know, current condition, if you will, it didn't mean that Black and Veatch was at that same part of the Lean journey or the same understanding of the lean journey. So it was definitely a learning opportunity.

Yeah, yeah. So I want to maybe explore that a little bit here in a second, but before then, just, I don't know, catch us up. John, like, what's been up, man, it's been two years. So what's been going on in the, in the lean world of John Chacon?

Yeah, so, you know, a ton has been going on. We did come into Black and Veatch, myself and my team, you know, developing, you know, how do we want to approach, you know, lean at a company that is 100 years old, very successful. So this isn't company that's looking for a hell. Mary. There they. We are good already. So how do we implement something that's, that's, that's going to help us, you know, implement and practice continuous improvement just as a day to day practice and, you know, versus trying to convince people that, hey, that hundred year old playbook, yeah, it's good, but we're gonna, we're gonna change it up. So that was a tough task and we really tried to establish some simple takeout. A lot of the just overall tool nomenclature, trying to make that simple. And we've been able to establish training. And our little mission statement is we're going to have that army of problem solvers. We're going to have at least somebody to start with on every single team throughout our organization. Just help get everything seeped in. And it won't come from, you know, the lean guy, you know, which is me in this case. You know, I can be seen as maybe a talking head from, you know, that's just trying to, you know, sell a product. But rather we really wanted to have the approach that a successful transformation into practicing lean is going to come from its own people. And I knew that to begin with and really wanted to skip some sins of the past, you know, that I've experienced. I wanted to take that approach. And that's what we've done. We've been able to train probably about 300 lean champions, what we refer to them as across the globe. And this is anywhere from, you know, it could be engineers, procurement professionals, HR professionals, definitely within our construction craftsmen and tradesmen, you know, all levels of leadership. So we've been working a lot on our training process. And the other side of what we've been wanting to do is, you know, after training, a lot of times we, you know, check the box and kind of let people go on about their, you know, their day job. But we then go into some more of a support mode and, okay, everything's really nice and lined out and everything works in training, what does it look like within your own process? What is it? What does your value stream look like? And what are the scenarios or the products or services you guys are providing and really getting people to have the conversations about value creation, understanding their customers and what they want. So we've done that all over the United States. We've also had a awesome trip to Beijing, China, Bangkok, Thailand, and then Mumbai and Pune, India, where some of our other lean champions are located. And it's been great, a great learning experience for me to really see, you know, what different audiences are grabbing onto, you know, is, you know, me, myself, you know, I'm a three thinking lover. I love the concept, but there's other folks that may not grab onto that. You know, I have a large, a large group of folks that loves visual management, you know, and, you know, it all fits together, but, you know, that's what they gravitated to. And that was one of the things that we had to, you know, let's get a Win. Let's take something that people are getting excited about and use that approach to get people to understand the message and get moving forward.

So a little few minutes ago you were talking about kind of your approach and you, you said something that just, I don't know, piqued my interest. You were talking about your sins of the past. I'm wondering what are some of John's lean sins of the past?

Oh, dude, I've. I've probably screwed all of it up. I mean, it's probably the Mount Rushmore of lean thinkers are probably shaking their head at me right now, but.

Well, tell us a story, man. Give me an example.

Yeah, so we've done things when it comes to possibly lack of strategy or just improving something just to improve it. And it's not a bad thing that something's improved. But I have a story of not really understanding all stakeholders involved in a particular process upstream and downstream. One of the things we've done was have. They're called pipe supports. You know, it looks like a metal letter T. And so we would fabricate those to go out into the field and have them installed. Well, we went and reduced, you know, so much process steps and forms of waste, and we were a nicely tuned machine that was just fabricating like crazy all day to a point to where, where we were out fabricating the installers. And we went and created a mess for ourselves with inventory, you know, and now we have inventory and now we're having to manage it. And now we're creating safety risk with, you know, forklifts and flatbed trucks moving, you know, the new pipe supports or this product around and, you know, just creating motion and transportation and inventory. It was one of those ones. It's, you know, it felt really good, you know, as we're optimizing a piece of the overall process, you know, but in the end, we really had to recover and see what we did downstream. So that was, that was a.

What would you do, what would you do different? If you could go back and counsel that young John excited, lean engineer back then, what would you have, what would you have done different?

Oh, man, I would go back and.

I would really, in that particular situation. Yeah, that, that one.

I think, I think, you know, myself, I'd go back and tell myself, like, let's roll the entire value stream out, you know, and broaden our, our field of view a little bit. And, you know, I think I knew this back then, but it was just so exciting to get the call from the customer, you know, we need a better Unit rate on pipe supports, you know, and just get excited and just go, do.

Let me ask you before, Let me ask you there. Was that true? Did they. Did they have a throughput problem with that particular process?

Well, I think, I think yes, there, there was a throughput problem. There was inflated cost and effort to fabricate the pipe supports. You know, so there definitely was the opportunity there.

You guys just made it too good? Is that what it was?

You know, what we did, we just made it too good. You know, we met the cost and financial goals. Goals of the customer. But on the back end, we kind of shot ourselves in the foot by accomplishing that or not understanding how much good is good. You know, it's one of those things there.

Well, would have been as simple as kind of sort of putting a Kanban system on it or something like that just to say, okay, yeah, race car stop, you know, we. We have enough inventory or I don't know.

Yeah, that's. That's exactly it. It is some of those concepts really understanding, you know, the entire value stream. What's. What's the end goal in mind? And, and yes, the customer right away may be talking about expenses and, you know, financials, but they themselves, that may just be a symptom of a bigger or a deeper root cause.

Yeah.

You know, and so those, those are those lessons there that I don't, I don't soon forget. And that's a lot of what I kind of warn people is let's make sure we take a look at the big picture and make sure we understand now why we're doing things.

Yeah. Often liken it to, like a spider web. You know, you pull up one part of the web, the whole thing moves. Right. So, yeah, it's. Everything's connected. Right? So.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Hey, so let's go in and jump on an airplane and head to Thailand, China and India. What was that? What was that all about? Like what, what was that like? And what did you learn from. From those experiences?

Oh, man, this, this right here was a. A nice challenge for myself because, you know, we first, we land in. In Thailand, you know, and the first order of business for myself is to ensure that I'm maintaining respect for people and respect for people in Thailand, you know, may look a little bit different than it does in the States. So I'm making sure that I understand, you know, what the culture and customs are and show that there's an effort into respecting you as, you know, Thai people and to, you know, your government, your belief structure, and how you all do work. You know, we're in your house now and you know, that was kind of the first piece of business to understand that there and to, you know, learn our courtesies and make sure that, that we go in there not as the, you know, the American instructors that know it all. We're there to serve and make sure that our business brothers and sisters in Thailand can also learn, you know, continuous improvement and be able to apply it and be successful, you know, with our business ventures in Thailand.

What's one important custom that most Americans won't know about Thailand? Let's say you're, you're giving your buddy a rundown. He's getting ready to head over there. What are some do's and don'ts to.

Give the appropriate why and it's the not like, you know, why whilit. It's a, it's called a why. And you know, placing your hands together and you know, you bring it slowly to your face and depending on who you're talking to, kind of it's almost a, it's almost a bow. But you place your hands together and it's close to your face and it's a, it's a greeting, you know, a sign of respect and kind of understanding. And so you'll, you know, you, you enter the place and really understanding, you know, how to present your why. I think it's a wai. Really kind of sets the tone for, for the conversations going on.

What if you don't do that? Is it going to be bad or.

No, I don't, you know, the experience I had with the Thai folks that we had the opportunity to work with was, you know, they're still, they're very understanding of, I guess, Americans. Ignorance, not understanding. Yeah. Our own ignorance. I don't know what it is. So. But you know, they, they mentioned, you know, that, you know, if I try to say a phrase, you know, in Thai, you know, thinking them, you know, they, they get, you know, first get a kick out of it and make fun of me a little bit. But you know, they, they were appreciative because that's, that doesn't seem to be.

You're making an effort.

Exactly. Definitely. So, you know, they, it doesn't end up in a bad result if you don't present your wine in the appropriate way, but they understand and I think it's a little bit more of a benefit to show that respect.

Now what's it like? You know, sometimes here in the States we'll hear, you know, sometimes there's like, well, why you got to use all these Japanese words and blah, blah, blah, you know, all this kind of stuff. Is there anything like that in Thailand? I mean, obviously not a Japanese kind of based, you know, or the roots. Right. Come from Japan. Like, what kind of interaction do you have there as far as being in Thailand, Japan and all the rest of it?

Well, you know, in Thailand, there wasn't much conversation, but when we went to Beijing, China, there was a lot of conversation. Like what? Well, it just, you know, the, the word kaizen.

Yeah.

Well, we had a Korean professional and then we also had Chinese professionals. And the word kaisen is also gaishan. And I forget the Chinese, but I mean, they're so similar that when we say this. This word kaizen, you know, and talking about the. This continuous improvement, they were able to take that and take the similarities. And then I was able to have some folks present the word in their own language, in their own writing because it was so similar. So that was. Was really great. And especially when it came to the, you know, to the term kata, you know, in another Japanese word now. And we'll explain it in, you know, in English for our US Professionals, but they took kata and explained it masterfully. You know, just being able to make the correlation to martial arts and what your routines are and your. It's almost your. Your practice to. To create or become a master of your art. And it's just like, well, I guess I'll go ahead and take a seat now as I'm explaining these concepts, because they were able to just. Just take it and expand on it. And, you know, it was a nice. It was nice to see the way that we've taken some of these concepts and words and, you know, I don't speak Japanese. I don't really know. All I know is what I've learned or read. But to take these concepts and then have someone that understands or able to make a relationship with their own language and hear how. How close we are in our understanding and our. In our delivery of. It was a great learning experience.

Now where. What was the lean experience like there in Thailand and China? Perhaps it was different in both places as far as, you know, their. Their level of understanding, existing understanding or willingness to learn.

Well, there's in. In Thailand, there's. There's definitely a willingness. Willingness to. To understand and learn. One of the, I guess the challenges that we had in Thailand is, you know, from my understanding and from what I observed is that Thai folks are not very confrontational. So if we have a person of leadership, it's going to be a little bit more of a stretch for them as someone that a subject matter expert to, you know, in a figurative way pull the andon cord to say something's wrong with the process. That's not something that's an easy task for them. And so because it may be received as being disrespectful or, you know, being insubordinate. So really making sure that we, okay, we talked about this, we did provide some leadership factors to their leaders, but that's not something that you're going to change overnight. It's going to be one of those things that has to be introduced to leadership so that they understand what's going on, what their role is in all of this. And we are truly asking people to not just do the work in the current process that we have, but to improve the work at the same time. You know, and those are some of the things that we really had to manage and be aware of.

So what about India? What was the experience like there?

India was as equally as awesome as Thailand and China. In India we had a lot of folks and they're just above and beyond good natured folks. You know, they, they really have a lot of fun with understanding their own processes and creating conversations about them about, you know, about the concepts and, and everything. You know, I think that one of the, the funnest pieces about India, I don't think I'll ever forget it was after we finished our session in India, the entire class, we had about 30 to 35 participants line up to give myself and my co facilitator a hug on the way out. So I mean it was, it was really just humbling experiences and to see now, you know, we definitely keep up with all of our trainees that we have all over the world, you know, but see a story how they were able to reduce, you know, some process steps or deliver, you know, engineering drawings, you know, two days sooner than they ever had before, you know, or just the little improvements that we're seeing and that they're communicating back to, you know, our, our corporate marketing team and the stories that come out. It's been great to see that, you know, that they accept it, they understand it. You know, it's one of those things that you'll go somewhere and, you know, you hear the common pushback is I thought this was for manufacturing. I was like, well no, but we're, you know, we have customers, we have processes and let me guess, they can be improved, you know, so let's look at it that way. So we can actually achieve our overall purpose. And you know, and people would really catch on to that is there's, there's a process for everything that we do and we all just have to work on being able to see. And I call it giving them the curse, you know, to be able to see disruptions to flow and waste, you know, and to really understand that. And it didn't, it didn't translate as well as it does in the States. You know, I want to give you the curse to be able to see, you know, but they understood what we're trying to do. It's a curse because you're never going to be able to go anywhere without being able to see a disruption to flow or a formal, you know, you can be at subway, you can be at the bus stop, you can be at the government dmv. You can be anywhere and just see it. And that's, that's the curse. There is. We want to be able to see it so that we can address it. And they really grabbed onto that. So that was a great experience.

Yeah, yeah. To whom much is given, much is required. Right. So it can be, can be a double edged sword. Right. The more, you know, the more you expected to, to act.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's going to be hard to put those blinders back up because we, we know that you've accepted the curse.

I love it. I love it. All right. Hey, so last question I have. If I, if I say the word purpose to you, what does that, what does that mean? Purpose?

Well, that one, that one there is tough, you know, because you almost like all the versions of how lean has been delivered, you know, over the decades. You know, when I first picked it up in 2005, you know, the way it was presented to us is to have discipline, to create continuous improvement. And then it went into making sure that we have strategy alignments. And then now it's into culture and I think it's all been there all along. But it just depends on, you know, who's the, who's the, the person that's kind of yelling allowed us or selling the best portion of the overall concept and philosophy. So for me, you know, purpose takes me back to, you know, my own, you know, religious beliefs and practices. When I looked at purpose and as much reading as I do, I was noticing that some of the Toyota business practices and the Buddhist practices and beliefs, how much there was an alignment there and why there was a good possibility that the respect for people portion was, was such a piece in Japan that really came out and may have not been the, you know, the sexy tools and all that, but it was a huge piece of it. So I kind of took the connection there with, you know, the Buddhist portion and Toyota business practices and really try to apply them to my own Christian faith. And to see that, you know, that, that servant leadership piece of things and how we're constantly going through a type of rebirth of understanding, you know, of just different parts of our lives and how that, that builds up and, and, and it's, you know, our own little PDCA cycles, which is outstanding. So if, if I look at purpose, it definitely has a spiritual connection because if I'm able to, to serve as a Christian, then that will help achieve the purpose of serving. So this isn't a engineering drawing or this isn't a pipe support that we're building. We're building something that's going to benefit people with fresh water in Indonesia, with solar power in Florida. You know, these are things that are going to actually help not just the customer, but the end users. So it's really applying purpose in that way. I truly believe it's a God given purpose for me to help others improve and to be open and receptive to my learning experiences.

Yeah, that's fantastic. I really do believe that, you know, you can approach business, you can approach life really in a couple different ways. You can try to just take business, you know, you can if your whole intention in business is just see how much money you can make. Right. Well, you can take different strategies, right. To do that and you might be successful, but you might leave a lot of, you know, wreckage behind you. Right. And so at the end of the day, you know, or at the end of your life, you can look back and be like, yeah, I made a lot of money, but golly, everybody hates me. And you know, and I destroyed a lot of lives and all the rest of it and like what kind of legacy is that? Right? Versus turning it around? I think you can, you can approach for sure. We know if you're in business, you want to be successful and you know, I'm a business owner and want to be profitable to take care of our employees and all the rest of it. Right. But I've learned this from Paul Akers. You know, he said one time he said, you know, quit trying to, quit trying to make money and instead fix what bugs you. You know, help enough people and the money will come. Right? And, and I really believe that's kind of what you're saying is what I'm hearing is you kind of go into it with a purpose to serve, a purpose to help. It doesn't mean the money won't come. It may come in buckets. It probably will. Right. Because you're more genuine. Right. But, uh, it's really all about intention, in my opinion, how purpose can serve or disrupt.

Oh, man, you're absolutely right. You know, that's, that's why, you know, a lot of times when we're only financial driven or financial focus, you know, we can miss the mark. A lot of times, you know, and that's a lot of times when we talk about our metrics or key performance indicators is be careful which you are making measurable or making your metric as your true north, because that metric will drive you and it may not be in the direction that you want.

Yeah.

So it's one of those things is you can't. It's not a. It's not one of those things. You can kind of set it and forget it. You do have to come back and revisit and make sure that there's any kind of course corrections that need to take place.

Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Good stuff, John. So what's up, what's up for the, for the next year or so there at Black and Beach? What's, what's the next big plan?

Yeah. So, you know, in the next year or so, what we're really looking to do is create more physical interactions. You know, I'm telling my team, you know, I want to see problem solving everywhere throughout the day. You know, we kind of did it a little bit structured in the last couple of years to, okay, you know, you should do this now. You should do this. And now we really want to set our teams loose and make sure that they're challenging themselves to create improvement as a part of their day. And I really, I constantly tell folks I'm not looking for home runs. Like, let's talk about what was hurting us today. You know, let's get over that and let's just do that more and more often. And it's one of those things that, you know, we talk, talk about it like, like going to the gym. You know, if you go and you, you go and exercise, you know, once every every other month, or in this case, just a, you know, an event only for improving. And you go and you lift hard, it's going to be painful. It's going to hurt for days, you know, but if you go and you do a little bit every day, you know, when you have a heavy lifting day or an event, you know, every so often it won't be as bad because we're exercising that problem solving and that continuous improvement skill set or muscles there so we're able to go through and it becomes a little bit more of a natural phenomenon rather than something that's calling a timeout and then improving rather than improving just as part of what we do.

Yeah, a little better every day, right?

Hey man, hey. You know, if we can do that, we can gain some maturity on our visual management process and get people coming together and we can get our leaders to start working, you know, their, their product processes and, and really get to the point to where they're not audible leaders but they're visual leaders. You know, it's one of those things is getting out there and making yourself seen and not just heard is going to be a huge piece of our next, our next target conditions.

Speaking of Kata, have you ever thought about getting out to Katacon?

You know, I have thought of it. Let's see here at ame a couple of years ago I had a chance to do a kata session with University of Michigan, but I am, we are doing a little bit of strategizing for, for 2019 to see, you know what's going to be our approach. Is it going to be Ame? Is it going to be Katakan? Is it?

Well, I don't, I don't want to put them up against each other because we'll be at both and we like them both. But Katakan is, is, you know, for, for Toyota Kata purposes it's the best. And this year it's going to be pretty crazy. I don't know if you heard, but yeah, Jeff Liker and Mike Rother are both going to be there and celebrate its 5 years anniversary for Katacon. 10 year anniversary of the book Toyota Kata. 15 year anniversary for Jeff Liker's Toyota Way and then 20 year anniversary for Learning to See which is, you know, Mike Rother's Learning to See our learning value stream mapping book. So yeah, we're, we're big sponsors of it. This year we're gonna be putting on a little party for, for Mike and Jeff and yeah, it's gonna be pretty special. So yeah, it's February, February 18th and 19th. Man, you should come.

We're trying to get as a soaked up as much as we can, that's for sure.

There you go. Very good, good stuff. All right, John. Well hey, how can people connect with you?

Yeah, you can go ahead and connect with me through Twitter or Instagram. It is lean like a chacon. So just lean a Like, so it's out there on Instagram, man.

Instagram. How old are you, man? That's kidding. That's so cool. I don't. Never even followed him. Lean people on Instagram.

Hey, you know what? There's. There's some. There's some folks on Instagram. It's not as. Not as heavy as Twitter, but, you know, it's, you know, if we want to get to the point to where we're speaking, you know, continuous improvement and lean, you know, to the future generations and making sure they understand so they can improve, we gotta meet them where they're at.

Yeah, yeah.

My daughter tells me that, you know, that things like, you know, Facebook may not be the one. That's where everyone's at anymore. So I gotta go and hit Instagram.

Bob. I'm gonna ask you a question, John. I want an honest answer.

All right?

Are you on Snapchat?

You know, I'm gonna go ahead and be real about it. I do have a Snapchat.

So you can monitor your daughter, right?

Well, let's not give out all the tricks here, but, yeah, it is. It is for that. I don't really get it, but I try.

So, yeah, I don't get it either. I'm like. I'm like LinkedIn, man. I'm boring, you know? Yeah, I do have a Twitter account, but, yeah, I don't. I just don't have any time for that stuff, man. I don't know how people do it.

Yeah, it's. It's tough, man. I mean, you have a lot of folks on Twitter, especially, that just lay out some. Some great stuff. If you're, you know, if you're beginning with your journey or if you're just. If you're just trying to get some. Some interesting tidbits, man, there's just great stuff out there from a lot of great, you know, lean thought leaders.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Good stuff. Good stuff. All right, John, well, thanks again for coming on. Keep up the great work and. Well, let's. Let's not wait two years before you come on again, right? All right, man. You take care.

All right, brother. Thank you.

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