GA 257 | Sharing the Power of Lean with Bill Kraus

Sometimes it's easier to change people than it is to change people. And KATA gives people a chance to get on board and change.

A few weeks ago, we attended the Katacon 5 summit in Savannah, Georgia. It was a fantastic gathering with lots of learning and sharing. And while we captured many of the presentations with our video cameras, we also had our mobile podcast recording booth with us and were able to interview several folks, including Today guest Bill Krause. Now, Bill works for the Arkansas Economic Development Commission and as you'll hear, has an extremely impressive background. During the show, Bill and I talk about what he's learned about continuous improvement and leadership throughout his career. And of course, we also talk about the role scientific thinking has played and continues to play in the work he does. The show notes for this episode, which will include links to everything we discuss, can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode two. You can also check out Gemba Academy's Lean Learning System over@gembaacademy.com with a fully functional trial. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show.

All right.

Well, Bill, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on.

It's a pleasure. Thank you, sir. All right.

Yeah, this is the second time that we've had these face to face kind of interviews. We were at AME recently and we did those. And so I'm normally talking to people over Skype, but it's much better, you know, we can see each other face to face. So thanks for coming on and joining us. So, Bill, as you know from our discussions, we like to begin all of our episodes with our guest sharing a quote. So do you have one?

I think so, yeah. So when it comes to, like, continuous improvement leadership, my quote kind of goes back to the early 90s. I had an opportunity to go to Memphis with a bunch of guys to see a diaconate service where Bishop Curtis Guillory was ordaining 30 men into the diaconate. Each time a man would come up, he'd hand him a bible, put his hand on his head and say, believe what you read, teach what you believe, and practice what you teach. Yeah, so I got to memorize that because I heard it 30 times. I thought it was pretty cool. So, you know, I think about all that we're about here and everything. We've heard all the wonderful stuff that's out there.

Yeah.

How do we. How do we learn it? How do we share it? And I think it does require that we believe it and it's good stuff and we teach it and I think we're being encouraged, not so much admonished, but encouraged to practice it too. So I think, anyway, that was my quote.

Oh, I love it.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. All right, well, Bill, tell us about who you are. Tell us about your background, how you first got exposed to all this continuous improvement stuff, and then tell us what you're up to these days.

Okay, great. So last June, I celebrated, if you will, 50 years in manufacturing. So first 28 years, phase one, I call it. Two major corporations, a couple small companies, moved around a lot, got to go to 12 different locations, Superintendent, Plant Manager, VP levels. Learned a lot of stuff there. And when it came to continuous improvement during those first 28 years, it was kind of a lot of. For me, what was us all about? It was so much, so many pieces coming through. And when we saw leadership, it was pretty much, here's your budget. Got to make these numbers. Every month we'd come together and we'd get the data and we'd pour over it and we'd commiserate and we'd try to make suggestions. Then we'd go out and kind of next month it was kind of business as usual. And so we really didn't engage leadership throughout the whole organization. It was a lot of, again, business as usual. A lot of, kind of jumping to conclusions. And I kind of look at it.

As everything we say not to do, right?

Everything we learned right not to do, jumping to conclusions. And it was a lot of this kind of looking in the rear view mirror, what just happened? What was this all about? So you remember the cards video? Pixar cards video? When Mater was teaching Lightning McQueen how to drive backwards, he said, I don't need to know where I'm going, I just need to know where I then, Right? So we did a lot of that. Yeah, we meant well. And there were good folks, good people at all the levels, Leadership, management, value adders, but we just didn't. The system wasn't there to bring it together. Then in 1996, I kind of started phase two for about 15 years when I joined the NIST MEP in Arkansas. You guys know about that. We have these organizations where we meet with our clients and help them out. Yeah, and those are my wow years. I got introduced to the Toyota production system. I mean, all these wonderful concepts. And so we went out, we started, we were like TPS hammers looking for nails. You know, you want 5s, you want quick changeover. We did these things without a sense of purpose. We meant well again. But we missed the opportunity to be more purpose driven. And we ended up kind of doing lean to people rather than with them. Although at the same time leadership, I think started to become aware of all this good stuff, right? And they said, you know, hey, this lean stuff is good. You guys do that and kind of keep us posted. Right. They weren't quite engaged. And so management had not only the day to day responsibilities, but they also had this lean thing that they were going to have to do. So but again, the whole system was evolving. We were learning. And then in 2011, like Mike says, the penny dropped. I discovered Toyota cotton. And for me that.

How'd you discover it?

Just came across the book.

Someone gave you a book?

Came across the book, we read it. Brandon Brown and I went to Texas, heard Mike speak, we came back to Arkansas and created a little workshop and we began to really study and understand what KATA was all about. So I've been a, I've been a student, so this is like my, I'm beginning to see phase. So for the last seven years that's, that's where I've been. And what I found, of course we all see, is that how, how Toyota Kata involves everybody. Leaders, managers, value adders, they're now involved in this North Star, you know, where are we going? This vision. And then leaders and managers get together and they get to understand what's the challenge, what's that one year out in Arkansas? We encourage our companies to kind of look at a challenge in 12 months, a year out.

Okay.

And then what's the current condition? What's the target condition? Maybe a monthly. What are the obstacles? What are the PDCA cycles? And, and so it goes on. It gives our clients a purpose. So Mike said that, you know, he posited that maybe kata is the evolution of lean. And he had a question mark at the end of that. Right. Well, I kind of take the question mark off thinking that, believing that kata is that evolution of lean. And for me I think it's it, I think, I think it's the answer. What could possibly be better than purpose driven activity to pursue, to pursue excellence?

You know, I actually, I, I almost wanted. Sounds blasphemous here for a second, but I almost want to disagree with Mike's statement that it's the next evolution of lean. I don't think it's the next evolution of lean. I think it's the, I think it's the, it's the next evolution of like humanity.

Oh, good.

You know, like it's not about leaving lean to me, right. You know, because when I'm talking with my, you know, 16 year old daughter who's stressed out about taking the act, you know, soon, she doesn't care about Lean, you know, she's got, there's real emotions, there's real fear, you know, and, and, and so in my mind now I'm, you know, I don't again, like I've, I've kind of put my own signature on it as we talked about the other day, you know, like I don't always whip out the card, right. But I'm helping her, you know, kind of break it down, you know, and to me it's been life changing for me. I mean, for sure it's changed the way I approach Lean, no question. So in, in fact it is the next evolution of Lean. But it's much more than that, in my opinion.

Totally agree.

I even, I even bugs me on Gemba Academy, our website. You know, it's like it's one of our courses, you know, and mixed in with all the other things. And that really bugs me in a way because it's not, it, not to disrespect the tools, but it's not a tool. You know, it shouldn't, it shouldn't just deserve to be stuck between 5s and.

7 waste, you know, it's an existential way of life and when we take it to that level, it's just. What could possibly be better? Yeah, it is. It's not about good to great or great to excellent. It's about pursuit of perfection and it's about Toyota and they get it. It's all about their people. It's all about their process. It's about pursuing perfection. So we had a conversation with Mike a couple years ago at dinner and it was mentioned that could kata be it. In his own his typical humble style, he kind of scratches and says, I don't know if it's really it, but I would offer that in my mind, what could possibly be better. It just fits with everything.

Yeah. I was talking to Dan Markovitz earlier and we were just talking about, you know, just reflecting on all the things that we've learned over the last couple of days and, and you just really. The word that came out is just like framework, you know, it's just framework. You know, it's not about what I like about, it's not about telling people what to do. Right. Because everyone's obstacles are different. My daughter's 8, 16 year old obstacles for ACT prep are very different than some senior vice president of Operations somewhere, running a factory. Right. But at the end of the day, both of them share one thing in common. Fear, Uncertainty. Anxiety.

Right.

Doubt.

Yeah, I like what you just said, because that's. That's what we're doing now. We don't go to our clients in Arkansas, say, we're going to. We're here to help. We're not here to tell you what to do. We're help. We're here to help you tell yourselves what you need to do. And I think Kata does.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So talk a little bit about. I mean, obviously, Bill, you've got incredible, you know, experience, and I'm sure stories upon. Stories upon stories of triumph and of struggle and perhaps even failure, you know, along the way. Can you. I don't know, just maybe talk about that a little bit? Talk about some of the. Some of your journey.

Yeah, yeah. So I think the thing that something that pops out is the normal distribution. This is all as it relates to continuous improvement in leadership. We've got the tails in our normal distribution. We've got some that are out there on the edge. They're the early adopters. They see the future. Right. And they're just ready to go. And I think that's what this is all about. I think those of us who are talking about that, that's the future. There's a great poem out there by Ralph Waldo Emerson titled. And it talks. It's really cool. Talks about how they see the future and the creativity. So in the normal distribution, there's that section. Then over here, we've got the citizens against virtually everything, the cave people, right? And then in the middle, we got the wait and see. And those are folks that are, in many ways, for them, it's just a job. So I think what I'm learning is that all that we're about here in continuous improvement and leadership can begin to shift that whole paradigm. And the idea then is to create a larger group of early adopters and give the cave dwellers a chance to get on board, or maybe they're not ready.

It's not the right fit.

It may not be the right fit. Right. And. Yeah, so what Kada does is I think of the saying, sometimes it's easier to change people than it is to change people. And Kata gives people a chance to. To get on board and change. And so, you know, as we begin to create this critical mass and build this momentum, things happen. It's also occurred to me that it's not just a total business model, but it really comes down to the individual Level, you know, you, I, Mike, all of us, we have, at any given time, all we have to offer in terms of what we do is what's our knowledge of the job. When you get right in the head, you have knowledge. What's our ability to actually do that job? When you get right in your hands, you have ability. And then what's our passion for the job? How much do we love it? When you get right in your heart, you got passion. And when you take knowledge and ability and you combine that and give it an opportunity, passion at the exponential level, stuff happens, you know, you bring knowledge and ability together. For a person maybe who has a very low knowledge of two and a very low ability of two, but their passion is eight. That's kind of like Toyota's. Higher for attitude, train for aptitude. And then conversely, sometimes you've got these cave dwellers who have high knowledge and high ability, but their passion, something went out, the light went out. And so I think kata. And then there's the wait and see. That's a million dollar club. They're all at fives. So the KATA engages everybody in this conversation, gives us a choice to change. I can come out of the cave, I can be part of this, and I can be part of the early education adopters.

So, so do you think? I love that. I love the, the, the, the distribution concept here. I can see it in my mind, you know, like the slide that we've all used. Right. Do you think it's. I don't know how to ask this, like, how, how. Obviously the early adopters, you know, there's not that many of them. I mean, even here, you know, there's a few hundred of us, right?

Yes.

And Ame has 3,000 people.

Correct? Right.

You know, now a lot of those 3,000 people also practice kata and all the rest of it.

Yes, sir.

But they're not here.

You're exactly right. You know, and I'm part of AME too. I get that.

I mean, I love Ame. I mean, we're, you know, huge partnership, you know, so, so, so I'm wondering how, how important is it for us to. Or is it important to increase the early adopters or. I mean, you can't really. You either are, you aren't.

I suppose.

Right. You can't really make someone an early adopter. So I, I suppose it, you know, are we really targeting the, the, the big part of the bell, right. And, and trying to move some of those folks again? They can't ever become something they're not. Right. They they either are or aren't an early adopter, but I. I suppose we really. Is that where we want to target the middle? Or do we. Do we want to go? And I don't want to say, you.

Know, ignore the cave dwellers, but everybody has an opportunity. And I think it's incumbent on us, as part of the extended community of continuous improvement advocates, disciples, whatever, to show what we're doing and give hope that this is something I can believe in. So I think it addresses all three factions. You know, early adopters. Yeah, they have a responsibility. I think it's more of an opportunity to do stuff. And if they can affect the change and bring everybody along, I think, again, I think that's what Kata does. Yeah. Yeah.

I love that. I love that. What have you learned? I mean, we've talked a lot about that, but talk a little bit more about that, because I share a very similar story to you, Bill. And as far as I don't have the experience you have, but, you know, I did two. Did a lot of tools, and I do. I did lean to a lot of people, you know, and over the years, and then I've. I've come to find, like, kind of like religion or whatever you want to call it, as far as, like, whoa. You know, there's a whole nother way of approaching this. Right. But talk about that transformation from doing lean to people to involving them more in scientific thinking process, because that's a. It's a hard jump. I think it's even easier. Like, I'm working with some new customers of ours, and they're really brand new, you know, to continuous improvement. And so I'm really. In fact, a few of them are here, you know, at this conference. I'm like, this is where you start, you know, So I almost think it's going to be easier for them.

Oh, yeah. They don't know what they don't know. Yeah.

You know, the tools will come to them as they need them.

Right. Oh, yeah.

But. But talk about, like, your transition, like, was it hard for you yourself?

I would like to think I've been an early adopter. I mean, I got it. I was just part of a culture when I was growing up that was wholesome and believed in that, so it was easy for me. I was kind of, like, pulling it all together, and it didn't make sense. Too many pieces didn't make sense. I didn't know what the puzzle looked like. And I think Kata, in fact, has helped to really bring all that together. What I think, too, is that the whiff in question, what's in it for me, I think it exists at all three levels. Leadership, management and the value adders. And, you know, people have to have a sense of hope. Why do I want to do this? You want me to get involved in this? Well, I'm afraid. Or it's new, it's different. What's in it for me? And the sad part that I see in too many situations is that that middle section where it's just a job, people come to work, they punch the clock, they do their thing, they go home and that's kind of the end of it. And we really don't have a way of pulling that all together. And so I think having a job, if you want to call it that, is a gift. You know, what do we do with that? Money, Right? Yeah, in a sense. Fundamentally, it is all about money. And I consider that to be a gift. So having a job, being able to take care of myself. Yeah, Maslow. Maslow's hierarchy need, you know, food, shelter, clothing. And then my wife and I had 50 year celebration of marriage. 10 kids, 10 kids, 5 kids and 10 grandkids. I haven't been home since Sunday, so things could have changed. But right now, that's for dad. So really everything I do is to make sure that I can change the needle by providing my value proposition. The knowledge, ability and passion for what I do as best I can. And in doing so, not only have I made money, but I've also earned a living. I think KATA engages people in a way that it's not just about making money, it's about earning a living. What better kata, the PDCA cycles? I think the most important thing in this whole process is what are you going to put in that box that says step? What am I going to do today? What value proposition am I going to contribute that helps to move the needle? So I have earned a living by contributing that value. And I think it requires us to be thoughtful leadership managers, value adders. All are involved in the tactile filling out of the storyboard, the power of being part of that and being engaged in that process. There's a David Crosby, Joni Mitchell. So I was listening to npr. This is about the tactical process of the storyboard. I listened to NPR in 2016 and David Crosby was being interviewed and he was talking about how he was having a creative conversation with Joni Mitchell and he was going on about something. She stopped and she said, write that down. And he said, what? She said, write that down. He said, write what down? She said what you just said, and he said, why? She said, because if you don't write it down, it didn't happen. So when we take. When we go to the storyboard and all three levels of leadership, management, value adders are involved, all of a sudden, that whole tactile process, we really get engaged. I think there's great power behind the cottage story.

You know, something that's popped in my mind when you were talking, Bill talking. I'm thinking about those folks in the middle, you know, where it's just a job, you know, I think, you know, I've spent a lot of time over the years really trying to study human behavior and motivation. You know, I'm familiar with Dan Pink's work, you know, and, you know, as far as what motivates people, you know, autonomy, mastery, purpose, and those are big words, you know, but I think a big part of people's lack of engagement. If you want to talk about the Gallup polls and all the rest of it, or just motivation, you know, you talked about taking a step forward. You know, what step are you taking? I think when people leave work at the end of the day, they want to know, did I really contribute to something today? And sadly, a lot of people don't contribute. They're just going through motions.

Right.

And so when we empower people and give people the opportunity to take a step, then they are beginning to go home and be excited, perhaps even to come back the next day, because they're going to do something different to make a step forward.

It's hopeful. It continues that I like Mike's circle. This is our day, right? We have this circle, all the stuff we have to do, but then we have the little wedge, Right? The little wedge. This is something that we're going to do, each of us as a team, individuals specifically, above and beyond our normal. Just our normal day. So, you know, if we don't do that, nothing changes. Yeah. We still have our day job. And if we could just carve out that little piece of time to do something above and beyond. I think that's what Kata compels us to do. Yeah. I did a value stream mapping session last week with a really fun company in Arkansas, and I was going through the circle and talking about the wedge, and the plant manager just really got a hold of us. He says, so this is going to be living in the wedge. This is what we're going to do every day. We're going to live in the wedge. He got the idea that we have to do something different.

You should make a T shirt to.

Say, I wouldn't be surprised if he does. That's great.

That's great. So I know we have a common friend, many common friends, but one in particular who is one of my favorite just humans is Brandon Brown. You know, and you know, he gave obviously another awesome, you know, talk today and, and maybe we'll turn that into a podcast or something. But. And we'll have a video of it for sure. Talk about people like Brandon.

Let me talk, let me talk about Brandon because I can't think of anybody more appropriate in, in this conversation that what he and I did together and what he has meant to me. In 2011, we went to Texas and we saw Mike and Beth Carrington and do a three day kata. And when I went, I was amazed, blown away. I didn't get it. Brandon went, he got it instantly. He saw back then 10 years ago or 7 years ago what I didn't get. And we came back to Arkansas. We put together. You're familiar with Buzz electronics, the lean 101 within this MEP. No make circuit boards with widgets. So we took that and we created a workshop that he and I taught all over 100 times. The first session we did was with La Z Boy up in northwest Arkansas. We had 260. I still had the book, 262of Mike's slides. So again, Death by PowerPoint. But Brandon was always many steps ahead of me in terms of understanding how these pieces all came together. So I would say Brandon was my first mentor and we were both on the same journey together. But he has taken this to a whole different level. What he's done with NEA Baptist and Skip Stewart and there are others like Brandon out there. But Brandon has had a big influence on me in that regard. Yeah.

The thing that Brandon has taught me over the years, I think, I don't know if it was on a podcast or we were just chatting or whenever. One day he said, you know, sometimes it's okay to, you know, embrace silence. You know, when you're coaching someone and, and you ask them something and, and they don't immediately respond, the natural tendency for the coach is to fill in the silence.

Right, right.

But he said, sometimes it's okay.

I think it's just important to embrace the silence.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So where do you see this, this.

Whole.

Scientific thinking, Toyota Kata, Lean, whatever. Just this whole movement. Where do you see it going, Bill, over the next five to 10 years?

Yeah. So I think I kind of bring it down to maybe Arkansas in terms of our NIST MEP and what we're doing with our clients, again, like I said, I don't think. I don't think there's anything better than KATA because it gives us a purpose. You know, it's the way our center director has embraced CADA fully. In fact, we have applied it to ourselves within our NIST mep. So we're practicing what we preach, right? Every Monday morning, we have a virtual Salesforce KATA session where we go through the five questions to be sure that we're on track as a team doing it. And right now we're enjoying a very good success within our NISS mep. So, you know, we're continuing to promote that within. Within our companies. I'm part of ame, you know, the whole people centric leadership piece. It's all about bringing the culture together. So I have a quote that I kind of was listening to out here in terms of when we see stuff happening, what do we do with it? And, you know, we don't want to jump to conclusions. And KATA helps us to purposely manage our business and the idea that facts change thinking, thinking changes actions, and actions change results. So I think where we're going is we have to systematically and scientifically use what we know and what we're doing to take steps. A little every day. Right. Taiichi Ono. Little every day, some days big up. So it's a very hopeful program. We have evolved in our thinking. Our center director sees kata, Lean and TWI as kind of a trifecta. KATA manages the journey. It's the mother concept.

Right.

It's a capstone. Lean is about the right tools at the right time for the right reason. It helps us to get there and then TWI to sustain the gains as we make changes. And we have to find a way to inculcate that into our system. So what better way than to utilize JI jr, for example? So that's been our program. We have what's called Managing for Continuous Improvement. We start off with engaged leadership. We do a little lean 101 to understand the concepts. We do value stream mapping, and then we do CADA and TWI to kind of do those five components.

Now, talk about the whole MEP model a little bit. Just, just obviously you spent some time with Arkansas, but talk about just the model.

Yeah, so. So again, I've been on the team for 22 years, and in our charter, we get funded out of the federal government, we get about $140 million, and there's a couple thousand of us have you Met Brian Lagos by any chance? No, Brian's here. He's a strong advocate of what we're all about. So every state has one of our teams. There's about 12 of us in Arkansas and we go out and we meet with our clients to understand their wants and needs. And then at our, at our, what we have available to, to us, all kinds of resources, everything, you know, lean and everything. So kata now is being utilized to help our clients understand what they want and need and then we're able to bring that to them. So in our center we have 12 of us who are practitioners. We also have third party providers that can come in and help us as well. So we do training, we do facilitating and now we do coaching to help. And I think it's pretty much the model for all mbps.

So how do folks find.

Yes, if you go on the website nist.gov there's a map that comes up and it will show whichever state you're in. You can click on that and that gives your center director. So Great. Yeah, great.

All right, how can people connect with you directly?

Bill. So phone number and email, how's that?

Well, you don't have to do that or you're on LinkedIn or something.

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn.

Yeah, I'll give you your phone number.

I'm happy to. I'll answer 24 7. I prefer not in the middle of the night, but I will.

Okay, well how about. Are you William Krause or Bill?

I go by Bill. Yes Sir.

Bill on LinkedIn.

Yes sir.

Okay. Yeah, so we'll find you and we'll put it in the show notes and you know, if you want to put your phone number in there, you know, I'm happy to. Okay, that'd be great. All right, well thanks again for all your work and it's great to meet you and well, the show continues here, so let's get back to learning some more.

Privilege to be part of the. Thank you.

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