GA 260 | The Secret to Excellence with Oscar Roche

You know, that I've got to get over here. But we're just not sure of the pathway and it's letting go. That's okay. And it's letting go of that. Having to know the pathway is actually very liberating because I don't know what's coming, but I know damn well what pattern we're going to follow to get there.

I'm excited to welcome one of my favorite Australian Lean thinkers back to the show. His name is Oscar Roach. Oscar works for the TWI Institute and first came onto the show during episode 108. Now, Oscar and I were able to catch a quick interview on the last day of Katacon 5. In fact, Oscar was so busy during the day with all of his Katakan obligations that we actually recorded this early in the morning before everything got started. During the show, Oscar and I explore a few different topics, including what Oscar believes to be the secret to excellence. Our show notes for this episode, which will include links to everything we discuss, can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 260. You can also check out Gemba Academy's Lean Learning System over@gembacademy.com with a fully functional trial. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show.

Oscar, how's it going?

Good, thanks, Ron. How are you?

Yeah, I'm really good. Thanks for coming back on.

No problem.

So we're face to face. Last time I think we chatted on the podcast, you were fishing, I believe, with your son or something like that.

Summer holidays where we always go. Went there this year.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. That's great. Well, Oscar, you know the drill. We like to begin all of our shows with our guests sharing a quote. Do you have one?

I have a quote. And the quote comes from the fact that for. For a long time, I was very. I was never convinced about what lean was and what it really meant. And this went on for. I guess I was first exposed to lean or heard of lean at the end of the 90s and through the 2000s and early 2010 decade. For me, there was something missing. And then I saw a definition of lean that said, lean is developing people who can and will solve problems and make improvements daily. And when I saw that, I thought, ah, now that makes sense to me. And maybe it's because of my background and my inclinations and all the rest, but that was just a saying or a phrase or a definition that I thought that makes sense to me. I can see how that fits and how through that you can get to excellence just by the other definitions of waste removal, I wasn't sure, and all that sort of stuff. I wasn't totally convinced about how that could lead to excellence. But when it focused on people developing their capability to make improvements and solve problems and do that daily, yeah, I thought, ooh, I think you could go somewhere with that.

Yeah, that's beautiful. So speaking of your background, Oscar, catch everybody up on who Oscar is, how you came to learn about all this continuous improvement stuff and definitely talk about TWI Institute and your work there.

Okay. So going way back in terms of how I've got to be here, I suppose that started in 2012, 2000. No, must have been about 2011. I was doing work in Vietnam for a company over there. The director was a guy I went through college with. We did food science together. And the work we were doing with him was to do with the visual workplace, visual management, the Gwen Galsworth stuff that we've been doing since about 2007 after having training with her over here. And my modus operandum back at that time was to write a project plan. So as I've said to people in the last couple of days, I've got rigour and discipline. So back in those days, the rigour and discipline would go into writing a project plan. And the project plan was exceptionally detailed. And it would be 12 to 18 months of how we're going to do and what we're going to do and when we're going to do it and the day we're going to do it. And when I would turn up at this guy's site, the they were a contract packer of beverage products for Nestle. I turned up at the site, probably the third or fourth trip, and Ian, Ian Haverfield, his name is, grabbed me and said, oscar, I've known you for a long time, you're very, very good at what you do. But you don't deviate from the plan when it's clearly obvious you need to deviate from the plan. He said, here's a book, read it. And the name of the book was Toyota Carter. He said, you need to read this book. And I'm not an avid book reader. I've only read, I don't read a lot of workbooks, partly because I believe that the timing, the effect of a book is about the content plus the timing. In other words, you can read a very good book, but if the timing's not right, a work based one, then it's not gonna have an impact. And he's given me a couple of books to read over the previous five or six years. Two. One was the Visual Workplace One. And another was Toyota Talent. And he gave them to me at the right time. Given he'd handed me this at that time, I thought, this is probably the right time because he knows. Knows me well. So he gave me the book, I read it, and I got to the line where it says, no plan needs to cover everything, and that is okay. And I thought, oh, hang on a minute.

It's like heresy.

Yeah. How can that be? 25 years I've operated this way. I know that's the way. But then when I read further and started to see or understand that it was about a pattern of thinking.

Yeah.

What I realized, I guess, was that I could take. If I applied the same rigor and discipline to that pattern of thinking, I might be more effective. And that is essentially what I started to practice in my own little world within our business and just in my own. Just in my own world, practice that rigor and discipline of the four steps of the improvement. Carter. And that led me to realize that there is a better way, and I can and I could and what it allowed me to do. And this is one reason why I can't understand why people don't do it, don't do it more, is it allowed me to let go. And I don't understand from management's point with senior or executives how they struggle. What it's allowed me to do is to almost free myself from the plan. It doesn't mean you don't have rigor and discipline and you don't know where you're going. You know that I've got to get over here. But we're just not sure of the pathway. And it's letting go. That's okay.

Yeah.

And it's letting go of that. Having to know the pathway is actually very liberating because I don't know what's coming, but I know damn well what pattern we're gonna follow to get there. And that was a significant change for me. And I struggle to understand why executives can't see that. Because it actually liberates you.

Yeah. Well, yeah. Oh, boy. We could talk for hours on why, speculate why that might be.

I know why it is.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I see it in a lot of cases.

Yeah. Yeah.

There's just so much on the other side of letting go.

Yeah.

No exact plan.

Exactly. So as we were. We were exchanging emails, Oscar, leading up here to the. To Katacon. We Were bouncing some ideas around what, what to talk about. You know, obviously we've, We've. We've had you on and we'll link to the old episodes we talked about. You know, you know, obviously your expert in TWI with twins to two and kata and all the rest of it. But I think maybe what I want to do today, Oscar, is just chat a little bit more. Just maybe at more of a. We use the word meta a lot. Right. With kata, you know, like a meta thinking skill.

But.

But more of a meta, maybe behavioral side of. Of this whole continuous improvement journey. And, and that is, you know, perhaps the way that we interact with. With others, perhaps our subordinates doesn't have to be subordinates. But, but talk a little bit about that because I know you're passionate about this. This area.

So if we go back to that thing I said earlier about that phrase of lean is developing people who will and can solve problems and make improvements daily. I think that's where the role of a leader fundamentally changes and should be looking at the people who they work with, the people who they work sideways with, or their subordinates and really focus on the personal, the skills that. That they need in the problems they face daily. And what we find fundamentally with the Institute, through our thinking and the way we look forward is that really there's not that many categories of problems. So there's a category of problem which is doesn't know, can't do. So if the category of problem is doesn't know, can't do, then the countermeasure is instructing or effective training. Job instruction. In our world, I'm sure there's other worlds, but in our world, job instruction, whatever it may be, the countermeasure is training. If it won't do, not doing, doesn't care, then what tends to happen a lot is when that is the root cause, people throw training at that person as a first reaction. Well, they know. They know how to do it. They can do it. They're choosing not to do it. You can train them till the blue in the face.

Yeah.

And that's not gonna make a difference. It might. Face to face. Yeah. You'll be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we go through the training program, I train you and you do it, and everything's good, honky dory, but I turn around and walk away. And you know what they'll do? Yeah, yeah. People can't see that, but you know what happens behind there once you've gone? Effectively, they go back to the old way.

Yep.

So when that's and when that's happening then we need the countermeasure of the skill of leadership becomes the countermeasure and the skill of leading which in our world is the job relations fits in. So that's two categories of problem is doesn't know, can't do. And then we've got don't care, won't do, not doing. And then the third one is where the job's physically hard to do. When the job's physically hard to do, then we need the skill of improving methods. So as a leader I need to be at any level. I need to be helping my subordinates identify what type of problem I've got sitting in front of me, sitting in front of them and then what's building their making sure they've got the skills to deal with that type of issue. And then we've got, I guess there are three problems. Then we've got the tuatakata aspect which is when a problem has been created by the need to improve. So those first three problems I spoke about as problems that have occurred when things have been going along to standard and the standards dropped. But when the bar gets raised and there's a need to improve driven by the customer ideally then we need that fourth skill of the skill of improving from improving our. When our standards go up of getting to a new standard, which is a slightly different skill than just improving methods. Yeah. And that's where we, as a, as a leader we need to, I believe we need to really focus on the development of our coaching skills and driving improvement.

Yeah. Talk a little bit about, you know, in the various J programs, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about, you know, put the learner at ease or you know, give credit where credit's due. And these are nice words on cards that we read from.

Yes.

And then I say, oh, I got a coaching session with, with Oscar. Oh yeah, I got to put them at ease. Yes. It's easy to read on a card.

Yes.

You know, and I can say, hey, how's it going Oscar? You know, but, but really talk a little bit about that because this is the, the behavioral side of, of the science is it's not easy, especially for some people who just maybe aren't that good with people.

Yeah, absolutely. Fair comment. So one of the things, it's, it's, I think what happens in it. There's a couple of things here in the early days when you get that pocket card, when you first get it, it is, it does feel unnatural. It's quite forced. There Is a. It's a bit like it's no different to the improvement card and the coaching card or any of those other the ji, jr, jm. All the same, it is a little bit forced and a bit contrived. What needs to be thought once that, once that, you know, the introduction that inevitably happens is hello Oscar, how are you? Hello Ron, how are you? And we go through that forced, put at ease. I think what needs to develop is the realisation of the need to know your. Need to know your people. And this really came back to me when I did. We do. I've got a winery in Australia that I do a lot of work for called Warburn Estate and they have underpinning skills that they make sure all their leaders have in particular JI and jr. So any leader that comes into the organisation or new leader, developed leader has those skills. And we did JR and JI training with a seller hand had been promoted to team leader and we did that. About this guy was about five or six years ago and sadly I can't remember if his name. It's not coming to me. Doesn't matter. It does matter but it's not going to come to me. And he said to me after we'd done JR and Junior, he said what I've realized, he's only a young guy. He said what I've realized is I don't know my people who report to me. I know what they can do but I don't know them as people. So whenever we deliver job relations in particular, well both of them but job relations in this case we also have follow up mentoring and coaching. And what he said to you know, where we asked them to actually apply the foundations or you know, if they have to handle a problem, we help them in our follow up. And he said this. I'm trying to think of his name. It's not coming. And he said the first thing he's going to do for the first two weeks was just get to know his staff. He said when we have lunch together or smoko together, morning tea, afternoon tea, I'm going to sit down and I'm just gonna pick one of them and just try and just ask them a few questions about things that are outside of work. He was only a young guy, he was only 21, 22, lacked a bit of confidence and that was tough for him. I know it was hard for him but he did it. I don't know to what degree he did. I wasn't watching him. But he came back afterwards and he said that was, you know, for him, that was a watershed moment. He said, I learned things about my people that now I understand why they're doing what they're doing at work, because I started to understand their background. So to get back to your question of put them at ease. I think there's a prerequisite to be able to put someone at ease is you got to have a bit of a feel for who they are and what makes them tick. And with job relations, we talk about that, everyone must be treated as an individual. Well, to treat someone as an individual, you got to know them as an individual. Not in great detail, perhaps in the workplace, not in super detail, but they are more than just a person who can move wine from A to B in this case, or run a crusher or run a centrifuge. And he. It was a significant realisation to him as a young leader. Hang on, I need to know about the people who work for me. And I think there's a bit of. That becomes a bit of a barrier sometimes. I think a lot of supervisors or a number of leaders, you know, what happens out of here is none of my business. And we always say to them, it is your business if it impacts the way the person works. That doesn't mean you share that with your fellow, with your mates in the toilet, Billy's doing this at home and blah, blah, blah. No, you don't do that because you'll lose trust and cooperation and all the rest of it. But you do have a responsibility to know what makes this person tick because it will impact the way they work. And at the end of the day, you're accountable for the way they work. Yeah. So that, yeah, to get back to your question, to be able to put someone at ease, there's a prerequisite. You got to know them to a certain degree.

Yeah. So we're up against a deadline here. We are starting our session here in 10 minutes. I have a million questions I'm trying to, in my mind, pick the. Pick the one that I want to really focus on. And we were having breakfast a few minutes ago and we had a really good conversation with Skip and Brandon Brown and some of the other folks there.

And you usually do have good conversations with Skip.

I know, I love Skip, he's amazing.

I love his signs.

But we were talking about, again, very TWI centered breakfast this morning and we were talking about, you know, Ji Jr. And I think Skip said something the effect of, you know, someone was asking him which one they should do first and he kind of smiled and kind of winced A little bit. And he said jr, and then you immediately said, that's not the answer people want to hear.

No.

Why is that?

Because it takes them to a place that they're least comfortable. Out of the three or four J skills, Ji, Jr, JM and JS, the JR takes people to the place where they're least comfortable. I think that's a little bit the way the world's gone in the last 20 years in terms of education and training of people going through university and all that sort of stuff. And new leaders, we're very good at teaching them the technical skills and I think they come out of their qualifications very strong technically, but those technical people are going into roles where they get their results through other people. So technically they may be very sound in what's happening, but from a leadership point of view, I think the gap's big and I think the gap's getting wider. And, you know, we've had people who had one particular dairy factory in Australia that we started job relations with and job. I always say job relations are going to be a pretty good filter when organisations start it and get ready for the ones who realise that if this is what leadership is and it's results through people, my subordinates, then they're going to want to bail out. Either they will they need to bail out or they're going to want to bail out. And this organization we trained in the early on, probably 50 or 60 frontline leaders and three of them went back to being operators and it was a really good outcome, actually, because they could. If this is what this is what the organization wants from us as leaders, then we're not going. That's not us. And they were classic cases of great operators who were put into leadership roles without truly realising what leadership meant, and that is results through others. And as soon as it became clear to them that that's what they needed to do and to get those results, they were going to need to practice something. And in our world, job relations, they weren't and went back to being operators and good operators. So that was a good outcome for the business and a good outcome for them. Yeah. So, yeah, I think people find that really confronting leadership can be confronting. It's a soft skill and I think that worries people and that's why they probably. I think what I believe is they know that it's a valuable path, but it's going to be the hardest and the longest and the most difficult to stick with. Yeah, yeah.

Let's wrap things up. Oscar, tell us a little bit about TWI Institute. Obviously you're in Australia, but it's not. It's all over the world.

Right.

TWI Institute, the leading TWI trainers of the world. I think it's safe to say for me to say. I don't want you to say it sounds make you sound cocky but I'll.

Say it very kind of you.

So talk about the work you guys do and how people can learn more.

Very good, thank you. So the way the institute's structured is there's a head Institute, if you like, in the USA and then we're very. And then there's about six or eight global partners around the world. It's more Europe centered, so. Well, when I say that there's probably five or six in Europe, there's one in China, there's US in Australia, New Zealand and covers Southeast Asia as well. Did I say China? I think I did. In Mexico there's a partner and then in South America they're starting to develop. So the way we function is that we have a common system, if you like, that's governed and comes from the parent institute. And what we really pride ourselves on is our ability to follow and we get criticised for sometimes to follow quite a structured system of delivery. I never make. I always declare up front that I'm following a structured system of delivery and I always ask people why? And someone in the room says, because that's your standard work. And I say, yeah, that's exactly right. And if I follow my standard work, there's a very good chance that you'll get the same outcome. The last group got in the group before and the group before that. But what it also means is that if we all do that, then it doesn't matter where we are in the world. The customer can be ready and expect to get a standard out.

Accent's a little different, you know, versus New Jersey.

Absolutely. Accents are different but the way it's delivered and we had a really good case of that. So John Vellamer, who I can see is a partner from Denmark, I can see him just across the road there, he got a Grundfos wanted to do JI across their business in the last half of last year, all across the business worldwide. So the institute was able to train 570 leaders in that organization in four months by tapping into the global partner network. So I think that's what we can offer. The consistency in the depth and the breadth really we've got the globe reasonably well covered.

But it's not just twi. You're also teaching Kata as Well, yeah.

There'S a bit of a story about how that happened, which we've probably run out of time.

Duane's going to come, start pulling us in.

No worries. Yeah. So we also, what really, in a nutshell what happened was when I read that book, I started to practice and I could see how the TWI skills were going to get pulled into, pulled into the experiments, really. Step four. So I started annoying Scott Curtis at the institute in about 2012 or 13, saying we've got to become, we've got to get to know, we've got to understand this more deeply and I believe become part of the Institute because they fit hand in gloves. Probably it was a year or 18 months to 2 years of annoying him and then there was the first Cartacon. There was a guy from Europe was at that who works with John Vellamer and he saw Scott and said, I reckon we can put together a 10 hour program around Toyota Cara in the same style as the twi. And Scott Curtis said, there's a guy in Australia who keeps annoying the out.

Of him.

About Toyota Carter. Contact him. Yeah. So Jochim contacted me and we got together and that's how it started.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

So how do people find you, Oscar? Social media website.

So I'm on LinkedIn, we've got an Australian website under TWI Institute Australia. And then there's the, there's the global website. Just if you do a search, TWI Institute's the first one.

Spell your last name, Oscar.

R O C, not R O, A C, H. Got it. Roche.

Thank you, Oscar.

Good on you, Ron. Thanks for the opportunity.

All right, take care.

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