GA 267 | The Nature of Coaching with Steve Kane

I lead somebody on their journey. They come to a door that has a combination lock on it, and they get to the door and they say, hmm, I don't have the combination. Now we can waste each other's time with coaching of, oh, you know, okay, well, what is your target condition? Right? And, like, that doesn't help me. I don't need coaching on how to use a combination lock. I just need someone to teach me what the combination is. And that can be done just by telling me. So I'm going to step out of coach mode. I'm going to teach you the combination. I'm just going to give you that information, then I'll go back to coaching.

Today. I'm excited to welcome Steve Cain back to the show. Now, as you'll hear, early in the episode, we looked it up. Steve's been on the show. This will be the seventh time that Steve's been on. So Steve, as many of you know, is Gemba Academy's director of customer success. So Steve and his team really focus on our existing customers and trying to help them be successful. And Steve and I actually talk a little bit about what they do on the customer success side of Gemba Academy early in the show. But the main topic of today's episode is coaching. In fact, Steve has gone through a pretty intensive coaching training program, and it's really impacted the way that he's approached his work here at Gamba Academy. And Steve's been practicing scientific thinking in, Toyota Kata for, gosh, almost 10 years. And as you'll hear, some of the things that he's learned have really helped him to maybe smooth out some of the rough edges that many of us struggle with when we're practicing Toyota Kata or scientific thinking. And so we go into quite a bit of detail on. On what he's learned and how it's really about learning and growth. And kind of transitioned into another conversation on a book that I've read recently called Mindset by a lady named Carol Dweck. And point of that book is the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. And so we were able to kind of tie all these things together. And after the show was over, Steve and I stayed on and we were just talking like we always do. I should have kept the button recording because it was a pretty cool conversation, but we're just talking about how so many things within the world just really all tie together. And whether it's psychology or neuroscience or whatnot, there's so much to learn. And the more that we learn and it all comes back to. Comes back to continuous improvement. And so that's why this is such a fantastic field to be in, and. And why I'm so, so honored that. That. That I'm in it and that you're all in it and. And that we're all in it together. So show notes for everything Steve and I talk about can be found over@gembapodcast.com. just look for episode 267. You can also get a free trial to Gemba academy over@gembaacademy.com. okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, Steve, welcome back to the show. How's it going?

Hey, it's going well. Thanks for having me, Ron. All right.

Yeah, I should have. Should have looked up how many times you've been on the podcast. I got. I'm on a page here. Let's see. See, type Kane here. Looks like six times you. You show up here on the GembaPodcast.com website. So I guess that means you've been on six times. All right, number seven.

So seven.

Yeah, it's perfect. Number. Right? Number seven.

Yeah. All right, that's great.

Okay, so, well, just in case folks haven't listened to the previous six times you're on, Steve, and don't know who you are, tell us a little bit about. About your. Your background and. And then obviously what you're up to at Gemba Academy these days.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, my background primarily is in medical device manufacturing, and that's where I really started studying lean as a discipline, and I was able to apply it from the shop floor into various other positions, including senior leadership. And. Yeah, so that's where I got my start with lean and. And really started to develop my interest in leadership from a lean perspective. Right. Respect for people. And what does that mean?

What do you do for a day job, Steve? I think it would be good.

Yeah. Yeah. So here at Gemba Academy, for folks that don't know I'm Director of Customer Success, and that position really applies to the renewal side of a subscription business. So essentially, my job is to make sure people are getting such value out of the product, so successful using it that they'll want to renew. And tying that with my background in lean, it's really a good fit because I'm able to talk to people, understand their challenges, and then help them understand how Gemba Academy content can be woven into their lean practice such that they can be successful and scale lean learning.

Yeah, yeah. You know, and just tell everybody that the Game by Academy commercial and soon. We don't normally do this, but I think it's what's really been cool over the last few years. And Steve, you've really led the charge for us is even with the way the sales team kind of goes about things now, I almost joke that they don't sell anymore. It's just more trying to figure out what people need and what they're, what their problems are. And then, you know, if we feel like we might be a way, a countermeasure to help them overcome some of those challenges, then, then we, we try to try to get them to come on board and. But then it's a perfect kind of segue into customer success, right. That, you know, you already know hopefully what their problems are and what they want, where they want to be. And, and yeah, so I think it's a, it's a, it's a really nice model and, and thank you for all the hard work that you and, and your team and Elaine and Bretta and Tiana, you know, have done great job for Gamba Academy.

Well, you're welcome and thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah, I feel really grateful to be in a position where the emphasis is, you know, in the spirit of lean, helping people be successful. Right. Helping them find a better way to approach their work, serve their customers. And I don't feel pressured to sell. Right. It's not like you said, it's not really a sales organization. I think, you know, we're able to help people and provide a really valuable product.

I'm always, I always remember Paul, Paul's words to me, Paul Aker's words to me, I don't know, many, many years ago, you know, just talking about business and he said, just quit trying to make money, you know, quit trying to, quit trying to sell people or whatever, you know, just, just help people, you know, and, and the more you help people, you know, the money will come and, you know, that sort of thing. But you go into it with the right intention. So. Yeah, well, it's actually a really good segue and that's the end of the Gamba Academy sales pitch, people, so you can relax now. So, but today we're going to talk about topic of coaching and obviously it's a big, big part of what you do here at Gamba Academy and what really, what all of us try to do. But you're, you, you've gone, I would say, next level with the whole coaching topic here. Steve, over the last year with, with really kind of digging in and taking some major initiative on your part and going through a extremely intensive training course. And. And while you're actually still working through some of it right now. But before we get into, like, what you've done and why you've done it, like, talk about your interest in coaching and why you're so passionate about it.

Well, you know, a lot of that comes from, you know, what I do on a daily basis and helping people. Right. They sign up with Gemba Academy and we help customers from both ends of the spectrum and every point in between with, I'm just getting started and lean, and I'm not really sure what to do next. And then on the other end is we've been doing lean very, very well for a very long time, and we really need the content to help with our training efforts. And great. But when I'm able to talk to people and really get an understanding of what it is that they're trying to accomplish, if it's solving a problem or simply improving things with the coaching process, every once in a while I get that opportunity where somebody makes a shift in their thinking, and I describe it as the light bulb coming on for whatever that topic is or whatever that struggle is and being able to participate in that and being in that conversation where somebody kind of has that aha moment or I've got it, and they have that moment of clarity and they're able to move forward and they do it with such energy and enthusiasm. To me, that's really rewarding and that's what's really driven my interest in coaching. I first learned kata back in about 2010 from Beth Carrington. She works very closely with Mike Rother. I attended a couple of seminars that she presented and read the books. Started practicing when I was in manufacturing and thought I got it. I really thought I understood it, and I was reading the questions and we're making good progress. We're filling out the storyboard and everything. It was working. And I thought that this is it. I know what I'm doing. And of course, you and I, we've gone to Katakan together several times now. Most recently, it was really interesting because we went to Katakan in Savannah just a few months ago and sat in the breakout sessions and I thought, yeah, I really get this and I'm really enjoying it. And. But in every time I go to Katakan or anything like it, I learn something more. A week later, I went from Savannah down to Orlando, and that's where I began that intensive coaching training, and that's learning to be a professional coach. You know, kind of conventional coaching. And my emphasis, my focus was on specifically business leadership. And through that course, it was six consecutive days, ten hours a day. And, yeah, so it was a lot of work, but it was. I mean, it was really interesting because we would learn one topic, and then we would actually go out and coach each other and really learn to practice it. One of the things that I learned through that was I don't understand kata so well.

What do you mean?

Well, I mean, you know, we know the kata questions, right? What's your target condition? Which actual condition? And very, very focused on whatever that process is. And. And the emphasis was on the scientific thinking, internalizing the scientific thinking. And quite often, it's related to problem solving. But with coaching, the emphasis was really on the person, not on that business process or that problem, but it's about getting that person, helping that person find clarity for themselves, find their clarity and be able to move from point A to point B and with whatever it is. So getting that person to be able to make what is referred to as a shift is that change in thinking where with kata, it's like, okay, how do I get to my target condition? Okay, we got there. Are we successful? Well, we might. Some people might say, yes, you reached your target condition, and eventually you met your challenge. Yes, you've been successful. Where. What I learned through coaching is, if all of that happened but the shift in thinking didn't happen, then we weren't successful. Right. Because what we're trying to do is change or improve the way we think. And that's what I really kind of thought about. What I reflected on is the backside of the kata card. Right? What did you expect? What actually happened? What did you learn? That reflection part of it, and that is, are we getting the change that we're hoping for? And for me, as a kata coach over the past, you know, nine years or so, I didn't get that well enough. I didn't really, truly understand that I was more focused on target condition. Next step, right? What do we. What are we going to do? And what did you learn? I kind of glossed over, and now it's like, no, no, no. All those other. The questions on the front side of the card, that's all to position the learner for that question of, what did you learn?

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you and I have obviously talked about this for many, many, many hours and days, and over the years, it's like, we'll get into our lean philosophy conversations, and three hours later, we're like, well, we Better go do some work, you know?

Yeah.

But, yeah, it's. It's hard to explain. You know, it's more of a. It's kind of kinesthetic in a way. It's like. There's some feeling to it.

Right.

It's not. Sometimes maybe I don't want to. I don't know. Not trying to be negative here, but sometimes if you're not careful, we can turn the. As Mike would call it, the starter kata. You know, like, the questions, you know, they become real. They become kind of engineering, like, you know, just. And it's just kind of like, well, I gotta say some things, and these are the words I'm supposed to say, but there's no meaning behind it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very mechanical and impersonal. At least that's the way I feel about it. And I think part of me describing it that way is part of my experience of going through these questions and asking the questions, going through the starter kata and really pushing people back a little bit. Yeah, right. They're kind of like this. You're making me feel uncomfortable. This doesn't seem natural. And rather talks about that quite a bit. Right. We're learning to do things differently and essence uncomfortable and all that. I think, for me, part of the struggle was I was going through this. The coaching katana. Right. So what coaches would refer to as a model. Right. I'm moving through this coaching model, but I'm asking these scripted questions without understanding what point A is for this person and what their point B is. Yeah, right. Because their target condition, that's not where they're trying to go. That's. That might be the business objective.

Yeah, Right.

But. But where do I. Where does this person want to go?

Yeah. Not to go off the tracks here, but just something I've been. I haven't even talked to you about this yet, so we'll do our lean philosophy here live on the podcast. But I've recently read a book called Mindset by this lady named Carol Dweck. Have you ever heard of that? Oh, yeah. You got to get it. Super good book, everyone. And I might even do a. I was even thinking about doing, like, a solo podcast just on this. On the. On the topic of the book, but I'll mention it here. Maybe we can weave it in. So the point. Point of that book, which is. I think it very aligns with what you're talking about here is. Or they're very complementary ideas, is she talks about the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth Mindset. And so a fixed mindset might be a. She spends a lot of time talking about school and kids and whatnot. She's from, I think, Stanford. I think she's a. I think she's from Stanford. So a lot of academic stuff. But she talked about a kid who might say, oh, I'm not good at math, you know, and so I'm just not good at math. So I'm just gonna. I'm probably gonna take the minimum amount of math that I gotta take and then that's it, you know.

Right.

Because deep inside the child doesn't want to look stupid. You know, and humans in general, we don't want to be, look, I don't know, inept or that we can't do something or that we're not smart or whatever it is. So if we have a fixed mindset, which all of us, by the way, have aspects of a fixed mindset no matter what. Yeah, don't kid yourself. We all do in some ways, but. So we will avoid that pain by not stretching versus a growth mindset would be, you know, a kid who's like, yeah, I'm not really good at math, but I'm going to, I'm really, I'm really interested in getting better, you know, and I'm going to. And I'm going to try. And I know that I'm going to stink at it probably, but that's okay because eventually, hopefully it'll get easier. I'll just keep practicing, I'll keep trying. And so, you know, and you see this with, with athletes, you know, in the book, she Talks about John McEnroe with the tennis player who was obviously back in the day, one of the best players. Right. Of all time. But he had an extremely fixed mindset. So whenever he lost, he always blamed Adon, you know, whatever it was that day, the, the, the umpire or the referee, whatever they call it in tennis or the, the noise in his stands or the racket or whatever, he always had an excuse versus someone like Michael Jordan. Right. Who was the ultimate growth mindset guy. Right. Cut from basketball and high school and whatnot. So I think where this is all headed and why I'm so excited about this book. And it was not. It has nothing to do with, about continuous improvement as far as she doesn't mention it or anything, but it has everything to do with continuous improvement. Because I think what we're trying to do when we practice kata or coaching in your case, is to help people transition from potentially a fixed mindset to one of A growth mindset. And so when we talk about what did you learn?

Right.

And it's okay that that experiment flopped. Beautiful. Because we learn.

Right, Right.

And I think that's what we're all trying to do, and we're all trying to figure out the right way to go about that. And the starter cotter are a beautiful mechanism to help us begin that process. But as Mike would even say, it's not sufficient. You know, in other words, he says if you're. If you're still reading the questions off the card three years into it, you're probably not doing it.

Right.

You know, so we need to. But so it's all about growth. Right. It's all about having a developing people into learners and not afraid to face things that they're struggling with. In fact, invite the struggle. Right? Yeah. So, yeah. Really, really interesting how all these things kind of tie in together.

That fixed mindset thing is pretty fascinating because there's this idea of I'm bad at math. Right. So, you know, I'm not going to do it or I'll end up failing, but even though I'm going to fail, at least I know I'm right, that I'm bad at math. Right. And that's. It's almost like this defense mechanism. Yeah, Right. Rather than say, hmm, okay, that's beyond my skill set. Right. But let's see what happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In that mindset. And when it comes to katan, maybe the lesson was taught and I missed it, because sometimes we hear a message over and over and over. We don't get it until we're in the right state of mind. And then for some reason it gets mentioned again. And now it comes through just clear as can be with the kata. The learner is trying to get something done. Right. They're trying to get to the point that they ask, I don't. Or they say, I don't know. Right. That's their response. Right. They get, as rather puts it, the threshold of knowledge. Right. And the coach is helping the person get beyond that. But ultimately, the learner is trying to get something done. They're trying to get to their target condition. And it's really easy for the coach to get sucked into that. And it's really important that the coach is detached from the results. And that for me was like, that was an aha moment during the coaching training. Like, what do you mean? Hold on a second. What do you mean, detached from the results? You can't care whether that experiment succeeds or fails. You can't be attached to achieving the target condition, because that target condition belongs to your learner. Your role in the coach is to help them shift from point A to point B in the way they approach the work. Right. The way they're thinking about it, that's your. That's your role.

I love that. You know, and what Carol Dweck talks about in some of the techniques to use to help people transition from fixed to growth mindset, which I think could apply here as well for our kata coaches or professional coaches, is she says, she says instead of telling the kid, oh, you're so smart, Johnny, you know, you should say, johnny, great job. You work so hard, you know, to, to get where you're at. So in one case, she's applying a label to. To Johnny, saying he's smart.

Right.

Like, so Johnny now has an identity that he's smart. And he's like, oh boy, I'm smart. I better not try anything that makes me look dumb versus Johnny. I'm so proud of how hard you worked or your dedication has been so good, you know, really, really, really honored to be your teacher. Something like that. Now Johnny feels almost a sense of responsibility, say, I better keep working hard, you know, and it's not that he's smart, right. It's that he works hard. And so. So within kata or the way we're doing scientific thinking, it's less. Again, it's less about the brilliance of your experiment or you're such a great lean practitioner.

Right. It's.

Boy, you're constantly seeking out new ways of learning, Steve. And you know, like just, I don't know, it's a subtle shift, but it's a huge shift when you recognize the difference.

Right. Because everything we do helps us fulfill our identity. Right?

Yeah.

It's our self identity. And yeah, I work hard because I identify myself as a hard worker. Right. My teacher sees this in me. She even pointed it out, I'm a hard worker and I'm going to. And I'm going to fulfill that. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

Yeah. So. So with the things that you've learned, Steve, through this, this coaching course that you've gone through and you know, you're actually still. Still learning, how are you applying it to this, the more traditional continuous improvement work that you do? And what's some tips maybe to throw out for the folks listening?

Yeah. So the first thing that I applied was the idea that coaches, coaches are not to suggest or advise. That's not your role. And when that was presented to me. You know, I would. I kind of sat back and like, wait a minute, hold on. Every coach that I've had has helped me. They, you know, they told me how, like, in sports, they'll tell you, loosen your grip a little bit, ease up on the backswing. Right? That's. That's advising. That's right. And that's what coaches do. And what really kind of came to light there was like, no, your coach shifted out of coach into teacher, taught you something, and then shifted back to coach. And. And that's something that. That we need to do, too. Right. I lead somebody on their journey. They come to a door that has a combination lock on it, and they get to the door and they say, I don't have the combination. Now we can waste each other's time with coaching of, oh, you know, okay, well, what is your target condition? Right. What's the. That doesn't help me. I don't need coaching on how to use a combination lock. I just need someone to teach me what the combination is. And that can be done just by telling me. Right. And. Okay, so I'm going to step out of coach mode. I'm going to teach you the combination. Right. I'm just going to give you that information, then I'll go back to coaching. So don't advise, don't suggest. And there's an interesting thing about this. The instructor referred to it as quadgetioning. Right. Hiding a suggestion within a question. Right.

Okay, good.

Well, don't you think you ought to try this? That's not a question. You're suggesting something very, very specific. And so that's something we want to avoid doing. And when I learned that in the class, I just kind of sat there. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Every single session I have where I think I'm coaching people, I'm giving them advice, I'm telling them what to do. And then it kind of occurred to me, you know, when I do that, I have a much lower likelihood of that person coming back for continued coaching. So one of the first things I did was I just absolute stopped doing that. No questions or no suggestions, no directions, advice, and really focused on staying within the coaching model, asking questions and helping people find their own clarity. Right. I can't create that for them, but people will. With the right questions and the right framing, you know, people will kind of discover their own path and. And clarity of their situation and then decide on a path forward. And then as a coach, too, I then follow up with accountability. Right. And which is what the KATAG model does. Right. How quickly can we go and see what we've learned? Right. And that's the commitment of, okay, now that you have an idea of what to do, okay, when is that really going to happen? Yeah. So that's the biggest thing that kind of came to my mind.

So you've kind of talked about already the difference between a coach and a teacher. And as you said, perhaps even within the same coaching session or conversation you're having with someone who you're coaching, you might need to tap into the teaching side. For example, you're talking to someone and they have a specific question about a value stream map. You know, well, answer the question. Don't be annoying.

Right.

You know, as far as if you know the answer and you can help them quickly or at least point them where they could go find the answer themselves. Go watch this video or read this book or whatever it might be. So that's the difference between a coach and a teacher. But two other terms that we hear that are kind of related in this field are mentor and consultant even. What's the difference between a coach and a mentor and a coach and say a consultant?

Sure. Well, yeah, we'll start with the consultant. Right. So while teachers transfer knowledge about a given topic, they can do so without even any experience in that subject area. Right. So for instance, a history teacher that might be teaching about the revolution was never. Hadn't actually been there. Right. But they're still able to teach about it. Right. They transfer knowledge, basic facts, and a consultant is going to provide very specific information on a specific topic in the context that the client wants. For instance, I need to buy a fleet of bicycles for a transportation program. What would be the best bicycle? Now, I don't need anybody to teach me what bicycles are, the history of it, all that, but I need advice on the best bicycle for the specific program purpose. So an expert in the field would be hired as a consultant. And then a mentor is somebody that we look up to. Right. Somebody that we seek to be like, somebody who's setting the example. And well, occasionally, in addition to setting the example, give us tips and advice, but much more broad thinking. So, for instance, let's say you wanted to be a world champion bicyclist and you saw some professional bicyclists and you just kind of thought, that person always wins, always passes the drug test. He's a nice guy. And I really admired this person for who he is and what he's accomplished and how he goes about that. That's the example for. And then you get a chance to meet this person and, hey, I want to be like you. What advice do you have? And that person is giving you subtle pieces of advice, like, don't focus on winning, on races. Focus on your training routine and do it every day and be willing to put up with the drudgery and work through it. Then by setting that example and living up to the advice that they give, they kind of fall into that role as a mentor. And the interesting thing about that is quite often it's unknown or unintentional. I spoke at a lean event once, and the host of the event introduced me as his mentor. And I just thought I had no idea. And I was really kind of knocked back a little bit. And the first thing that came to my mind was this sense of responsibility that I had. Right. If somebody's watching me, looking at me that way, and they're modeling their behavior and their career after the example that I set, I think I have a big obligation to that person. At the same time, I'm not really coaching that person along. Where a coach is walking side by side with somebody, helping them navigate their challenges and helping them discover their path forward and get to where it is that they want to be.

But do you think it's possible, Steve? So we got coach, teacher, mentor, consultant. Those are the four we've talked about. Sure. There's many others we could add in there. Do you think that someone could be all four to someone, or is it that going to be difficult? Depending on the situation, obviously.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Depending on the situation and the nature of the coaching. Right. So like a personal coach, those conversations might get, well, personal, and it might kind of shift one's perception of a mentor. Right. So if your mentor is also your coach and it gets into that personal kind of level, you know, you might just look at things a little bit differently. I think it has to do with the nature of the interaction where it's very easy for me to fall into the coach role because I talk to our clients about getting from point A to point B. And when that conversation wraps up, we hang up the phone and we're done. So there is no other relationship where that can become confusing. What's common, though, I think, is teacher, coach. Right. We're teaching something. So I might spend quite a bit of time clarifying some lean concepts. I'm thinking, especially when it comes to principles and philosophy, getting into a big conversation about that. And then I might immediately shift the conversation into a coaching model where I might Ask them. So, you know, based on what we. We've learned, what is it that you'd like to do with this information?

Yeah.

So where do. Where do we want to go with this? What's keeping you from getting there? And then now it's a coaching session.

Yeah. And I think while I think about those of us with kids, you know, I mean, there'll be situations to where, you know, I can see myself as a coach. I can also see myself as a teacher in certain ways, moments, mentor, hopefully. You know, your kids are kind of looking up to you and want to be like you if you're a good role model, and then even consultant, you know, like, okay, well, let's talk about what you want to be when you grow up. You know, here are some, you know, so. But to your point, I think there's a certain situation to where. All right, we're in a coaching mode right now. You know, I see that with my son, you know, like. Like, now my conversations are, I don't coach him him, like, on his. I'm not his sports coach anymore. You know, he's graduated to real coaches. And. And. But now it's more about, well, did you do your best? You know, what's your plan? You know, are you. You know.

Yeah.

You know, it's all about effort and. And that sort of thing. Growth, mindset type thing. I mean, I. And then, I mean, I might be able to try to teach him. He's a kicker, you know, in football now. It's like, I might be able to try to teach him how to kick the ball, but I'm limited to pulling up YouTube videos, you know.

Yeah.

But. Yeah, so I think it's. It. You know, it's interesting just thinking about those as four different kind of buckets and.

Yeah.

And when those buckets are appropriate.

Yeah. So I think one of the things that really comes to mind if we think about all of those, like, you know, what's the importance of trust in each of those? So with a teacher, sure. You want to, you know, integrity is very important, and you want to trust that the teacher is providing you with the correct knowledge, you know, facts and all those things. When it comes to coaching, it can become, you know, a personal relationship, and that relationship can be easily damaged by not recognizing that you're in a coaching session. Right. Somebody's starting to confide in you. Here are my struggles, and I'm not really sure what to do and where to go. And I kind of feel like this is unachievable, and somebody could really be opening up to you. And depending on how private or how guarded that particular person is, that might be a major step for them. And if we were not aware of it and we say, well, why don't you just do this? Right? And we can completely damage it. Right. We tell them what to do, which kind of diminishes that experience for them and also kind of tells them that clearly you can't think for yourself. So let me do it for you is kind of the implication where the coach would recognize that this is yours. And I see that you're opening up and you're vulnerable right now, and I'm going to help you through it through your own, in your own way. Right. By answering some questions or just presenting some questions, challenging people to think a different way. But it's recognizing that vulnerability and that trust that can come out in kata as well. When you're getting people to the point that they say, I don't know, I don't know. The way it is around the rest of the world, my experience with employers here in the US is, I don't know, typically isn't a best suited trait for the business environment we always wanted, particularly in leadership roles. We want to be able to say, oh, yep, I understand what to do, I know what I'm doing, I'm going to move forward, which is a fixed mindset, as you described before. And so to be able to say, hey, look, I'm, you know, I have this responsibility, and now I'm saying, I don't know, there's a little bit of risk there.

Yeah. Being vulnerable, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

How do you know if you're being successful as a coach?

The shift, if. If that shift occurs, if somebody has that moment of discovery and they find that path forward, to me, that is a clear sign of success. And depending on the kind of coaching you do, whether it's kata, business coaching, personal coaching, life coaching, whatever it is, you'll typically read it in somebody's face. So that kind of makes telephone coaching difficult. It's just a little bit more of a challenge. But if you listen for it, you can hear that silence, that delay to answer, and that's when you know you're really onto something. And that hesitation. And it's almost like going through the five stages of grief, right? It's the. What is it? Denial, arguing, like all that. Those kinds of things are going on throughout the session. And then there's this delay and then there's this acceptance of this is my reality. And now I have to take this Step and I'm going to commit to moving forward. Or it's something along the lines of now I understand. And you can feel the energy of that conversation changing at the same time. To me, that's. That's where success is. You know, if we kind of think back that we talked about earlier, getting that. That client or that learner from point A to point B. Right. And it's their personal journey. Where are they personally at their point A, and what is the point B they're trying to achieve? And it's, you know, it's a. That mental shift. If we can get them there, we've been successful and we can do that despite the fact that we haven't reach the target condition, that we're striving right in the kata model. Right, right. Because if we make the shift now, more likely we're going to get to that target. Just maybe not today.

Yeah, yeah. Not yet. That's. That's another thing that Carol Dwight talks about. We're not there yet.

Yeah.

You know, the power of yet and.

Yeah.

And being able to kind of persevere and not give up.

Right.

And not give up. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. So good. Steve. Well, thanks again for carving out some time and coming on. It was fun chatting about it. Any final words of wisdom or advice for folks as it relates to coaching, Kata, customer success, anything like that?

Yeah. So, yeah, this is something that I've been thinking about for a couple of months now. You know, we're all in the lean community, caught up in lean in general with all the reading I've done, kind of like putting the pieces together. There's a role of the coach, right. In the goal. We had this mentor who would kind of do this. Mentor coach, back and forth, always on rushing, like to get onto a plane. Here's my little piece of advice. Right. Here's my words of wisdom or the question. Think about this question, answer this and I'll talk to you in six weeks. So there's that role of this coach who just kind of bounces in every once in a while. The same with the gold mine. Right. I was thinking the lean manager, but the gold mine. And then with kata. So there's this kata coach, and something that really brought it home for me was Tracy Richardson's the Toyota engagement equation. Now, she didn't speak directly about coaching, but she talked about her experience as a supervisor at Toyota and the role of the coach. Right. There were coaches around and they were always watching. And when they saw that she wasn't being challenged enough, the Coaches would come over and set a new challenge for her. And that role of the coach in the lean scene, is that something that we're really missing? You know, conventional organizational management is, you know, we have these roles of supervisors and managers. How many coaches do we have access to and how important is that to the organization? Right. Because if we're truly a learning organization, which is an element of being lean, and we're really devoted to developing people. Right. That whole respectful for people pillar, are we putting forth enough effort, enough energy, and enough commitment to coaching people, to developing them? In a word, I think that is a missing piece for the lean puzzle. For those of us in the lean community, we're not doing enough with coaching.

Not to be a sales pitch for the program that you're going through, but. But, I mean, we've mentioned it quite a bit. Are you comfortable saying who you're going through or some people want to look that up?

Yeah, it's CoachU. Yeah. The word coach, the letter U. Like university.com. they are the oldest in the business. They started the first formal coaching training program. I think it was back in the 90s. Very closely affiliated with the International Coach Federation. And the ICF is the organization that does the credentialing for coaches and coach training programs.

And you've already let them know and people don't freak out. The website probably could be improved a little bit, but.

Yeah, solid program. Fantastic. But, yeah, I agree, their website looked like it was. It was. Well, they built it in the 90s. I don't know that they changed it.

Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. But it's functional so people can go bounce around on it. Good stuff. All right, Steve. Hey, what's the best way for folks to connect with you?

Yeah, I think the best way is gembacademy.com@thefooter of every. Every page on the website is the contact us link. And that comes straight to me. Yeah.

Awesome. Very good. Thanks again, Steve. Keep up the good work and let's go do some. Let's go do some work here for Gimba Academy.

Fantastic. Thanks so much, Rod.

Thanks for listening to the Gemba Academy podcast. Now we invite you to take a no strings attached, fully functional Test drive of Gembaacademy.com gain immediate access to more than a thousand Lean and Six Sigma learning resources, all free of charge at Gembaacademy.com.