GA 275 | Leading vs. Serving with Sarah Tilkens

One of the biggest takeaways is actually doing things that serve the people that you're trying to support better. So that definitely resonates. Instead of just me planning event that I think would be fun, actually finding a way to figure out what the people need and how I can impact their experience better.

Today, I'm excited to welcome Sarah Tilkin to the show. Now, this was a really fun episode for me since Sarah mentions how this podcast has actually played an important role in her career, which is both awesome and humbling at the same time. During today's show, Sarah and I talk about her lean journey, including the role her many mentors have played in her life. We then talk about how she's been able to pay this mentorship forward by mentoring folks herself in her community. We then talk about what she's been up to and her current role with GE Healthcare. Now, show notes for this episode, which will include links to everything we discuss, can be found over at Gemba Podcast. Just look for episode 275. You can also check out Gemba Academy's Lean Learning Library, which, among many other things, includes access to virtual tours of lean exemplars such as FastCap, Menlo Innovations, and one of the coolest companies I've ever visited in the ditch. Simply go to gemba academy.com to learn more. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, Sarah, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Good, Ron, how are you?

Good, good. It's good to have you on the podcast, and we've communicated over LinkedIn. I see you're pretty active out there commenting on all those lean posts out there. So keep up the good work there. But good to finally connect with you.

Yes, you as well. And thanks for having me. I'm excited for our chat.

Yeah, good stuff. All right, well, Sarah, as you know, we like to begin with our guest sharing a quote, something that possibly inspires them. So do you have one?

I do, actually. So it's a quote by Max Dupree, and it's we cannot become what we want to be by remaining what we are. So it's one of my favorites. I love it as it applies to both my personal life and I see kind of the inspiration in that quote as it applies to my organization and probably many organizations.

So, yeah, good stuff, good stuff. All right, well, Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background, how you first got started with all this continuous improvement stuff, and then definitely tell us what you're up to these days.

Absolutely. So when I was in college, I was actually going to school for biology, and I took an internship with a company, the Blood center of Wisconsin. I ended up working in the diagnostic lab quality area. And as I kind of started my internship there, a lot of their quality people were getting trained as Six Sigma black belts. So it was the first time that I really understood what that meant. I hadn't heard of it in college at all, but I got a taste of kind of what that process looked like, and it was something that was super exciting to me. So my career developed. I did a stint doing biomedical research, kind of looked to transition out of science, took a customer service role, and worked my way into project management. So prior to my most recent career move, I did project management in construction and manufacturing. So, yeah, kind of strange journey that I've taken so far.

Yeah.

But I spent a lot of time in every position that I had, kind of always trying to highlight ways that the process could be improved. And I was doing lean without really realizing what lean was or what I was doing. But that was kind of always in the back of my mind is, you know, Six Sigma black belt. And someday I really want to do process improvement as my job. So probably about two years ago, I got a little bit more serious about where I wanted my career to go, and I decided to pursue black belt. So I did it through a local university and got the certification by doing, you know, the project and having it reviewed. And kind of through that, I actually got the role that I have now. And it's interesting, your podcast played a really big part of my transition into my career. So when I first started really doing some exploration on lean and process improvement, I found you guys. My mom told me one day to go out and find my people. And in my language, that was like, yeah, I'm going to look for a podcast about that because I really like podcasts. I stumbled upon you, and I talked to a lot of people that you had interviewed and got some really good advice from people and just was really kind of inspired, even though my background was a little different, to just keep pursuing the passion and I'd get where I wanted to go. And then actually, yeah, in November, I took a position. My current role, I'm at GE Healthcare, and I am a lean manufacturing leader here. So been doing that for about seven months.

And so you've been with GE just seven months, then.

Yes. Okay. Yep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. All right, well, so that's a good, good kind of background of kind of how you got started. Now I know from kind of some pre work that we did that you've had a lot of good mentors in your, in your, in your life and in your professional career, giving you a lot of support. Talk a little bit about that and how that's impacted you.

Yeah, absolutely. So I feel like I've had a lot of mentors that I have maybe found in less traditional ways. So I grew up having a very powerful leader guiding me and that was my mother. She was a director and she was and is one of the strongest women that I know. So I learned at a very young age kind of what it is to be a leader and always had her at my back kind of pushing me and driving me to be what I knew I could be. But then as I started to again look into Lean, I know Matt Collette you had on your podcast probably about a year ago, and I really kind of connected to his message. So we ended up kind of forming a relationship and he really helped me as I was going through the process of getting my black belt, just even in spitballing ideas and just continuing to be motivating, encouraging me to reach out within my community and just again find like minded people. So, you know, it was kind of weird to email a guy that I heard on a podcast and ask for advice, but I'm so happy that I did. And like I said, since I've connected with several people that you've kind of brought me to within your community and I've had nothing but wonderful experiences with people just being so willing to just talk about obstacles, just talk in general about life. So it's been wonderful.

Yeah, I think I saw you even commented on, I think it was Katie or Karen Ross, somebody like their, their, their mentorship group thing that they're starting.

Which looks really cool. Definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah. I talked to Karen maybe a month or so ago now about some advice with Daily Management Systems and yeah, she is a wonderful human who I would love to continue to get to know. So to have the opportunity to work with those, those girls in mentorship, that would be great.

Yeah. But like, let's talk a little bit about mentors though. I mean, because it's a word that we, we throw around a lot and you know, it can mean many things. But what's. What, what do you think a good mentor? What characteristics make up a good mentor?

That's a great question. I think what has been most important to me is actually taking the time to truly understand what it is that I'm pursuing. I think sometimes for myself, it's hard to always articulate where I want to go. So just someone who can really take the time into getting to know you and help draw that out as a question. And then really sometimes you need to hear things that you don't want to hear. So just being really honest and open with both what you have to offer somebody and also kind of the direction that you think that they could go.

Well, what about you? I'm sure you've. You've. You know, it's not your first rodeo here, right? You know, you've had a lot of experience in other industries and whatnot, but talk about a time where you've been been. You've done your best to mentor someone else. Can you think of an example?

Yeah, definitely. So actually, recently I got the opportunity to work with the local organization. I kind of hooked up with them through ge. They're a company that is. They take interns and they actually do training in coding. So it's a very short stint where you get to wear different hats. And it's a training program for, I don't want to say youth, but young professionals in the area just to kind of help redirect their careers and give them really good professional mentoring. So I came in not knowing, obviously, anything about coding, but coding, like software. Software coding, writing scripts and all that. So I did some mock phone interviews with them, and that kind of rolled into having some dates with some of these guys to just continue to provide feedback on their resumes and just what people are looking for in the career industry. So I think it was really just again, having someone not only willing to say, like, yes, you did a good job, but having someone who's willing to be critical and actually give you feedback that helps you develop. I've definitely had mentors who, you know, just give you the thumbs up, but I think some of the most powerful feedback that we get is some of the more critical feedback. So that's what I was trying to offer. And I've developed good relationships with a couple of these kids. So obviously, hopefully I'm saying something valuable enough that they think the relationship is worth coming back to.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, a few weeks ago or for. All I know is a few months ago, they all. Time kind of flies by me. I don't know. Well, yeah, it was like four years ago when you had this guy on the podcast. I don't remember somebody said that the other day. I'm like, oh, that was in 2010. Oh, wow.

Okay.

But Steve Cain, one of my colleagues at Gamma Academy, we were on having a chat about coaching and different topics like that, and we were kind of, kind of talking about the difference between, like, kind of like coaching and. And mentoring and teaching and kind of the subtle differences. So I know even there at ge, we were mentioning, you don't have to say their name or anything like that, but there were some consultants working with you guys who are very well known in the lean world and be curious to hear your thoughts. And maybe it's best not to even use their name. I want to put it that way. You can be honest. If they stink, you can say, nah, just kidding. Of the various styles that you see within the lean world, where they might be kind of serving as what we would call more of a coach versus a mentor versus a teacher, there's subtle differences. What do you make of all that?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think even just on a person by person basis, like, you could probably find things that fall into each of those different buckets of like, oh, that was something that they did. That seems more like, you know, mentorship, and this is more of like a leadership thing. So it is definitely some fun buckets there. But I think the biggest thing that with the consultants that we've been working with is instead of just giving you an answer, really just kind of giving you the guidance to find the answer and helping with the tools. But, you know, the beauty of what we're doing here is, like, the people that I work with have a wonderful foundation in lean and process improvement and are extremely intelligent. So a lot of times we know the answers. It's just kind of, you know, redirecting the thought process, so it's less of telling you what is right, but just, you know, finding a way to allow people to tap into what they already know and sometimes even just giving people the confidence to step up and, like, feel that they already know something and feel really good about their ideas and their comfort with moving forward with something.

Hey, when you think back, it was interesting and you were talking about your construction career when you worked in construction, how long did you do that?

Probably about five years.

Yeah. So talk a little bit about that industry. I'm really always curious to, you know, there's the kind of lean construction movement that, that, that. That's definitely out there, but we don't hear a lot about it. Right. You know, outside of that. That world, like, what did you see when you were working in there as far as process improvement or lack thereof, maybe?

Yeah, so the experience that I had is a little bit unique, so I definitely wasn't in construction, building houses. Most of my experience, I actually was worked for a small local company that did rock work installations. So we installed zoo exhibits or artificial aquariums or big rock features where there is a metal cage and then you're actually shooting concrete onto it and carving it in a field. So, you know, multimillion dollar projects. But it's a very unique type of construction. I would say specifically the company that I worked for, it was a very small company. When I said Lean or Black Belt, nobody knew what I was talking about. So it was exciting in the sense that there was the ability to kind of teach people to think in a different capacity. But there was also a lot of hesitation to embrace anything because the idea was, well, we're custom and everything is one of a kind, so this doesn't apply to us. So I think that that's something that we can probably all relate to is just this idea that, you know, what fits one doesn't fit all. And that's definitely true. But the more I learn about Lean and the more I learn about it as more of an operating system, it's amazing how it truly is a system that can work for everybody. It's just kind of understanding how to tap into the specific tools.

So let's talk a little bit about your current role at GE Healthcare. Been there, what would you say? Six, seven months? So talk a little bit. Obviously, nothing confidential or anything like that, but, you know, curious, like, what are you working on? Like, what's the Lean scene there at GE Healthcare?

Yeah, for sure. So my boss actually hired me and my counterpart around the same time last year, November. So traditionally in our plant, I think Lean was kind of always just a body to go out and fix stuff. And really he was looking for something different. So the whole idea was to form this team where instead of being the fixers, we allow ourselves to be the coaches. So we're teaching operations, we're teaching production, the tool set so that they can go and, you know, fix what they need to fix without necessarily calling us to the floor. So just really giving people the empowerment and the tools to problem solve at all levels of the organization. So I think a big part of what I've been working on here is just developing again, like myself as a coach and a leader. So being pretty new to Lean, there's been a learning curve just in really understanding all of the tools and when you deploy certain things and what's appropriate for different times. So that's been a big part of my journey so far. I'm Working on daily management system deployment. So that's a big thing that is happening at our plant right now. So starting kind of from scratch to make sure that what is up and running is right. So we're doing tiered board structures throughout the plant, having meetings that are led by our people on our floor, which is outstanding and you know, implementing TACT and, and on. So a lot of those probably more basic concepts, but really just making sure that we're doing it the right way and that it is having the intended effects and helping us problem solving what our floor truly needs us to be working on.

Talk a little bit about that daily management system. And you know, again, nothing confidential, but that's obviously a very powerful, a very powerful way of communicating and leading and managing. So like, what are some of the things that you're learning as you go through this? Like what's working and what's not working? That sort of thing.

Yeah. So I think definitely the way that our plant kind of functions is we have multiple different areas on our floor that are downstream customers of other areas on our floor, if that makes sense. So one of the big things that this enables for us specifically is to like, allow the upstream teams to really understand how their quality and how their delivery is impacting our internal customers. So I think that's been extremely beneficial. And also I think that probably every. Well, everywhere I've been and you know, it's. It's hard to always be attacking the right problems. So I see that as the best thing that the daily management system is offering us and will continue to offer us is actually just directing our resources at the things that are again, most impactful to the people who are most impactful and that's the people building for us. So we're getting more strategic about not solving the problems that are easiest or not solving the problems of the person who yells the loudest, but actually solving the problems that are going to have the biggest impact. So I think that's the biggest thing that I see this driving so far.

Yeah, yeah. So you're obviously, you know, you're kind of at the beginning of your, of your career. Well, I wouldn't say beginning of your career, but new there at GE and newer to Lean. So like, I mean, do you have any questions? Not that I know everything, but been around a little while. I guess I'm getting my age out there. But I mean, I'm always curious for folks who are kind of newer to the Lean world, if they have any questions.

Yeah, I think the biggest question that I've just kind of been grappling with is. And I don't know that there's a solid answer, but finding the groove of how to lead and how to coach in an environment where maybe people don't understand what it is that you have to offer. So I think that sometimes Lean can get a bad vibe. Sometimes Lean is done to people instead of with people. And so there's not always. There's a little bit of work that you have to do to get back to feeling like you're able to contribute value through the system. So that's. Some people are really receptive to help, and other people just don't see the value. So that's kind of just one of my big questions is how do you. How do you lead someone who doesn't want you to be there?

Yeah, that's a great, great question. And I mean, obviously there's no magic answer if there was written a book and been retired on a beach and, you know, something like that. But I think maybe the. Maybe the right way to approach it and this would be. Be great to. We could post this episode up on LinkedIn and get all of our LinkedIn groupies to chime in. But I think maybe instead of thinking about leading and coaching and how to lead and how to coach, maybe we're better off if we direct our energy to how to serve. You know, like, how to serve instead of how to lead others or how to coach others. It's like, how can we serve others?

And.

And, you know, kind of we talk about servant leadership, right? Like, just really going out of our way to, you know, understand the other person's, you know, situation. So when. When someone is, you know, negative or, you know, someone is resistant, you know, to. To what we're trying to do, you know, resisting Lean or. We used to call them cave people. Citizens against virtually everything. Right. You know, whenever we come against people, situations like that, I think it's always helpful to try to understand, like, why are. Why are. What. What's going on here? You know, what. What is the problem? You know, and you have to go, like, sometimes two or three layers deep to. Because some people, it can be a personal thing. It can be like they're hurting inside for some reason or they were wronged, you know, in the past, or as you said, lean was done to them in the past. And. And we need to apologize to them for the mistakes maybe of others or something like that. So. So I don't know, maybe that's a way to approach it is to think about how you could better help others. And I used to. One of my corporate jobs that I had before Gamba Academy, I had a boss who had a big sales background, and we were continuous improvement guys running around and trying to make things better in our factories. It always seemed like, you know, this gentleman, I don't mean to pick on him, or he was a good guy and all that, but, you know, he was very interested in bookings and sales. Right. And the fact that we actually had to make something, like, kind of annoyed him, you know, it's like, let's just sell it, sell it, sell it, you know, and then. Yeah, well, we got to make it, too, and got to make it right the first time and this and that. And so, like, continuous improvement to someone like that is kind of like they're just like, they almost can't be bothered, you know. And so what I did was I tried to figure out, like, you know, what kind of problems does this person have, you know, as far as, like. Like, what's bugging them? As Paul Ikers would say, like, fix what bugs you. So I really tried to understand their position and what they were struggling with and the pressure that they had, because he had a lot of pressure, right? He had a big senior vice president role kind of thing, you know, And. And so eventually came to find out there were several things that I could do to. To kind of maybe help him, you know, and help him be successful. And when I started doing that, he was like, hey, that's pretty good, you know, so what I was doing, I was trying to serve him right, even though he was kind of annoying, you know, And I was like, I wished he would have done different things and acted differently, but the fact was, he was who he was, and I wasn't going to change that. So I had two choices. I could complain and moan and gripe to others, or I could figure out, hey, what can I do to best help this person? And then come to find out when I did that. We had a lovely relationship over the next three or four years before I jumped and came to this thing called Gemba Academy. But, you know, so I don't know, I think. Does that help? You know, thinking about serving versus leading?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. There's another thing that I've been working on here is just as it's applicable to kind of our plant culture is we actually. It's something that I'm super passionate about, is just figuring out how to make people enjoy their experience better. So we looked at culture and kind of built out some pillars of what we truly thought would affect the way that people were feeling. And one of the biggest takeaways is, again, just actually doing things that serve the people that you're trying to support better. So that definitely resonates. Instead of just me planning event that I think. Planning an event that I think would be fun, actually finding a way to figure out what the people need and how I can impact their experience better. So, yeah, 100%. That was great insight.

Yeah. And I know you listen to the show, so I was thinking about the other day. I said we probably had to rename this the Toyota Kata podcast because we talk about scientific thinking and Toyota Kata so much. But, but, but, but, you know, I think the beauty of that kind of movement and another. Another angle to consider is always figuring out and explaining and over communicating why are we doing these things. Right. And I remember when I worked at another company, it was early in my career, we went to this big 5s initiative. You know, the whole company did. My wife was working here at the time. She was in our HR department apartment, and she was home five esing our closet, and everything was going crazy with 5s and, and, you know, big banners hanging everywhere. 5s. 5s. 5s. You'd come into work and there'd be, like, the 5s. Police would have come and put red stickers all over your desk, you know? You know, and I'm like, what the heck is going on here? And it was so badly done. Right? Like, it was like. It's kind of like the things we tell you not to do. That's what we did, you know, and so we were doing 5s to people. There was no understanding of what. Why it was benefit. Because 5s is obviously a good thing. Right. Done right and used in the right way. And it's, It's. It's essential. Right. But. But when it's all about just doing it and doing it and doing it and doing it and just pounding it down people's throats until they can't take it anymore, that's bad. Right. And that's what kills these programs, I think, over the years. And the fact that I got to call it a program is bad because it shouldn't be a program, because programs by definition end. Right? So, you know. Yeah. Really over communicating why and serving. I think if we do those two things, success is far more likely, I believe.

Yeah. That is truly wonderful feedback. So thank you. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I know Kata is something that I've started to explore. I have listened to you guys talk about it often. I've been doing a lot of reading, so I actually think that I have something that I would like to try to do using kata. So I am going to start experimenting with it a little bit more in the near future and looking forward to the learnings that come from that. I'm sure it'll be a hot mess, but I'm sure I'll learn a lot.

Yeah, if it's not, then you're not doing it right. Yeah, no, it's great. We always use the example of crossing your arms, you know, and it feels comfortable. And they say, now cross them the other way and feels uncomfortable. And that crossing the other way is what happens when you. When you first start practicing, you know, thinking in a different way. So. Yeah, so. So what. What's next for. For Sarah? Like, what's. What's. What's your. What's your. I don't know, like, target condition? You know, where do you want to be and you know, where do you want to be in six months to a year? Like, what's your plan? What are you thinking?

Yeah, so I think the biggest thing for me is focusing on, I guess, just really, like, deepening my understanding of lean and the tool set that I'm going out and attempting to teach most days. And then right along with that is just kind of continuing to develop my skills as a mentor within my plant, so doing the best to serve the people here, so continuing to find out what that looks like and developing those skills. I have the opportunity actually to go to Japan in August, so I'll be going to one of our factories over there and learning a lot of lean stuff. So I'm really, really excited for that opportunity. But yeah, just growth, that's. That's what I want. I just want to suck up all of the information. I truly love this stuff. It's a weird thing. I remember telling friends years and years ago that I wanted to do kind of lean and process improvement, and I think they all thought that I was crazy. And I say now that I kind of have my dream job and I'm very happy about it. So it's. It's really a great place to be, but I'm just soaking it all in helping where I can.

There's a lot of. A lot of groups out there that also do tours. Japan. One I'll. I'll plug is our. My friend and I believe you've interacted with her on LinkedIn a little bit is. Is Katie Anderson. She's been doing some trips over there and I've not gone with Katie. I'll know this, but it sounds, sounds like they have a lot of fun and, and, but yeah, that's a great experience. I've been. And it's, you know, they don't, it's interesting is you think you're going to go over there and it's like it's the Mecca and all that. And it is in some ways, you know, especially if you get to go into like a Toyota factory or whatever. And this is like, it's amazing. It's like, like watching like just a beautiful orchestra and everything all together. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's mind boggling. But there's also a lot of places that we want. Like, yeah, it looks pretty good, but you know, it's like there's just people, right, and processes. So, so they don't have all the answers but, but there's a lot that can be learned over there and especially about their culture and things like harmony and, and how to, how to work in, and flow just in life, you know, is, is something that's really interesting about the, the Japanese culture.

Yes. I am very excited. I'm staying for a week on the back end. So I hope just to be able to experience a lot of that cultural stuff and go to the Toyota Museum, amongst other things. So it'll be equally nerdy and cultural.

Oh yeah, that's great. That's great. That's great. All right, well, hey, hey. I do have one last question for you. So someone's listening to this right now, and maybe they're new to the lean world, or maybe they've been practicing for a year or so and they're still trying to figure things out. Like what advice do you have for them? You know, kind of thinking about that servant mindset. What can you tell that person?

I think the biggest thing that I would recommend is just finding people to connect with. So I have an outstanding support within my organization of Lean people. But I get so much value out of listening to your podcast and connecting with people kind of in the community that you've created, created. And so just being really open minded to the way that different people think and just, you know, sucking up all of the juice from these people who are willing to kind of help and mentor you that don't owe you anything. But they do it just because, you know, they're very passionate about it. So I think that is really outstanding about this community. So I think just taking advantage of, you know, these people Again, that are willing to help and support.

Yeah. What's so cool about this community of ours is, you know, no, doesn't matter if someone's been at it for 20 years or one year. We're all learning, you know, and nobody's got it all figured out. Right. And so that's what's beautiful about this movement is there's, you know, there's a lot of humility and there's a. You know, like, Skip Steward was just on the other day, and, you know, he's one of the smartest guys that I've ever met in my life. You know, one of the best leaders of people that you will ever encounter for your entire life. Yet he's on here, like, trying to figure stuff out, and it's like, oh, I got to figure this out. I got to learn. I've got so much to do. And. And, you know, that's why most. That's what makes it special. Right. With this. I think this community is unique that way. Is that the minute we all think we've got it figured out, that's when we're about to fall? I think. So, you know, don't ever. Don't ever lose that curiosity or. Or that. That. That willingness and to learn and the desire and the need to keep learning, because it never ends.

Yes, absolutely.

Good stuff. All right, well, thanks again, Sarah, for coming on. What's the best way for folks to connect with you?

LinkedIn is always wonderful. So Sarah with an H, and my last name is Tilken, so I would be happy to connect with anybody, and I'm always happy to receive feedback and ideas. So I love being a part of the network, so don't be shy. Reaching out.

So everybody listening. Sarah is already, you know, what do you want to call it? Gone after all of our past podcast guests. So now you all have to go connect with Sarah and pick her brain.

So definitely.

Yeah, that'd be awesome. That'd be awesome. All right, well, thanks again, Sarah. Keep up the good work. Do you ever get out to any conferences or anything like that?

I haven't yet, but I'm hoping that I might be able to in the next year or so, take advantage of some more of that stuff and grow my network a little bit more.

Yeah, Ame is a good one. Katacon. There's a bunch of good ones out there, so, yeah, that'd be great for you. I think you'd like it a lot, so for sure. Good stuff. All right, well, thanks again, Sarah. Keep up the good work, and maybe we'll let's reconnect in a year or so and see what you've learned over the this over the last year.

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Ron. This is my pleasure.

Take care.

You too. Bye.

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