GA 277 | Analyzing Gilbert’s Behavior Engineering Model with Randy Matusky

If you are able to motivate someone, but you put them in a situation where the norms and the processes and the tools are contradictory to what you're trying to accomplish, you won't have behavior change in the end.

Today I'm excited to welcome Randy Matuski to the show. Now, Randy and I had a very interesting conversation today. In fact, it's a very. It's quite different episode than we normally do. Randy was curious. He's been working with a particular change management model which he'll explain. And there's six buckets to this model. And it was really interesting to kind of go. We walked through what that model is, but then Randy had some really questions of what I thought of this model. And, you know, so we kind of walked through many of the, many of the so called buckets of this model and talk about it from a lean perspective. And obviously I, I didn't claim to know all the answers or have all the answers. So a lot of it was some back and forth dialogue, but it was a lot of fun. And all of a sudden I look up and we had been talking for some 40 minutes or so, so it's a little bit longer than our typical episode. But yeah, it was a lot of fun and it was really good to engage with Randy and, you know, in a different style of interview. So show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 277. You can also check out Gemba Academy's Lean Learning system over@gembaacademy.com. okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Randy, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Hey, it's going really well. Thank you for having me on, Ron.

Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for coming on. All right, well, Randy, I know you're a listener of the show, and as you know, we like to kind of begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote. So do you have one?

I do, I do. It's a bit of a long one. Is that okay?

Yeah, for sure.

Okay, perfect. So it's from Eliyahu Gold Rat. And the quote goes, so the minute you supply a person with the answers by that very action, you block them once and for all from the opportunity of inventing those same answers for themselves. If you want to go on an ego trip to show how smart you are, give the answers. But if what you want is action to be taken, then you must refrain from giving the answers.

Yeah, Mr. Goldrat had some wisdom.

Yeah, he did. And I actually, I wanted to pick a quote from Mr. Goldrat Just because the goal was my first introduction to continuous improvement. One of my former managers, Mike Boos, who's now a good friend and mentor, he took me aside one day and he said, randy, I really think you should read this book. And my background wasn't in manufacturing. I'm not a quality engineer. But he thought it would be beneficial and it really was. And from that, that's really the start of my continuous improvement journey. So I wanted to pick something from him.

Nice. I love it. Well, speaking of your journey, let's hear about Randy and your background. I guess you just gave a little bit of origin story of one of the earlier phases of your career. But just tell us about who you are and then we' jump into the topic of the day.

Yeah, sounds good. So really my background is organizational development and learning and development. So my passion is for coming in, helping to analyze a particular problem, get to the root cause, and develop some type of organizational development or learning program to help fix that. So my work around Lean really has been assisting in developing white, yellow and green belt classes and assisting some black belts with some three or four day Kaizen events. And really from the learning side of the journey and that work, actually it kind of led me to the topic I was hoping we could discuss today. Just because myself and some other colleagues, we were finding that a lot of the learners were leaving the classes energetic and pumped, really primed and ready to start implementing some of the tools, the Lean tools and methodologies. But then after a couple weeks or a couple months when we would check in with them, very few actually were. Many were getting bogged down with the whirlwind of work that they were facing and they didn't have the resources or tools available to start implementing and starting their Lean journey. So we were seeing, or I was seeing, a real blockage around performance and behavior change. And it led me to start exploring some change management and behavior change models. And one that really stood out was Gilbert's behavior engineering model. It sometimes goes by the six box model or the BEM model. It's a model that focuses on six areas or six buckets that help to change behavior. And since discovering it, I've been trying to implement it in some of the Lean programs I've been assisting on.

I love it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was actually hoping to get your opinion on these six areas today and see what Ron thinks about these six areas and what advice you would give to some organizational development consultants out There or just organizations that are starting their lean journey specifically around these six areas. Would that be okay?

Yeah, I think that would be great. I gotta be careful because the quote earlier of Goldrat saying if you think you know the answer. Right. So I'm gonna. So maybe we'll explore and maybe come up with some more questions for all of us to ponder. But yeah, I think it sounds fun. And just so everybody knows, we have not practiced this. And I don't even have. I don't. I'm not familiar with these six buckets. So this is going to be a fun experience for all of us.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay, this sounds great. So I'll just take a minute or so just to kind of explain what the model is. So like I said, there's six areas and three fall within what Gilbert called environment or external. And three, the other three are individual or more personal, and they go in order. So one, the first bucket or the first area really has the most impact on changing behavior. So if you were going into an organization and you had to focus on, let's say bucket one versus bucket six, you would want to focus on bucket one because it would have the most roi, it would help with performance development and behavior change. And it goes in that order. So 1, 2, all the way down to 6. So I'll go through the first three. So the first one is expectations and feedback. Sometimes you hear it referred to as like norms. Norms and expectations. What is expected of you in your, in your team, with your co workers in your organization, and what are the guidelines or feedback that you are being provided? So that's number one. And it's considered to be the most powerful lever in terms of behavior change. Number two is tools and resources. So what tools? It could be technical tools, it could be equipment and resources. Are you providing the workers or your team members to help with that behavior change? And in this one, processes can be included. So any new process would fall within this bucket. That's number two. Number three is incentives. And here you can think both internal and external. So it could be like financial incentives. What financial rewards or opportunities are you providing based on performance? So that's number three. And these three are, like I said, are all environmental. The next three are more of the individual. So number four is skills and knowledge. And this is where we typically find, like training. So if you are trying to create a team of problem solvers, people who really want to implement continuous improvement and live it, what knowledge and skills are you providing them? So that's number Four, Number five is it's referred to as capacity or capability. So what's the mental, physical, emotional capacity or capability of the person? And typically, when talking to change management consultants, they tend to avoid this one because oftentimes human resources will help with this. So, ideally, if your human resource team is doing a good job, they're going to be providing you with individuals who have that capacity to perform. Doesn't mean that there's no room for growth, but they have the capacity. And number six, the last one, and the funny thing here is it's the one oftentimes organizations focus the most on is motives. What motivates a person? What can you do to increase their desire to go out and make that behavior change? And you see this often. Like, even in the lean classes I helped to develop, it was a focus, and it still is. It's like, because I like to consider myself an early adopter to continuous improvement, I just love this stuff. I love learning about the tools and what it can do, and I want to impart that and provide that to the learners. But based on this model, it's the one that is the least effective. So if you are able to motivate someone, but you put them in a situation where the norms and the processes and the tools are contradictory to what you're trying to accomplish, you won't have behavior change in the end.

Wow, that's a lot.

That's a lot.

Okay, well, I've been taking notes as you've gone, so I have my own cheat sheet now of these six, I'll read them back to make sure I have them. All right. The first three are environmental, and the first one was expectations and feedback. The second one is tools and resources. The third one was incentives. The fourth one, which is the first individual one, is skills and knowledge. The fifth is capacity or capability. And then number six, the last one for individual is motives. What motivates a person.

Yeah, you said it better than I did.

Okay, well, all right. I got a good teacher.

Oh, yeah.

See, you're already changing me. So, okay, well, so what do you think? How do you want to go through this?

So far, this model has helped me kind of change my perspective on how I approach developing a new continuous improvement or lean program. But I know in the spirit of continuous improvement, there's room for growth and your expertise, your experience in lean surpasses mine. And I was curious what. What your feedback is on this model and if anything stands out in particular, we don't have to take a deep dive into all six, but in general, if there are a couple that stand out to you, this is an area that really will help with that behavior change. I was just curious. Thoughts were.

Yeah, first I would open up with just the idea that all models are wrong and some are useful, you know, So I think it's. I'm always. I think it's whether it's the improvement kata. Coaching kata, which we obviously spent a lot of time talking about on the podcast. You know, these are models, right? And within statistics, you know, we create, you know, statistical regression models or whatever it might be, you know, and. And we just have to realize that, you know, there. They can be very, very useful, but they're not always, you know, correct, you know, in every situation. But doesn't mean that we should be throwing the models out with the bathwater, so to speak. But. But yeah, I think that that's the first thing that I would always say is when people get too enamored with a particular way, you know, this is. Then this becomes their truth, you know, and that's the only thing that this is. Leads to confirmation bias, right, where we're just constantly seeking out, you know, proof that our model is the right one. But we don't ever dare Google what's wrong with this model. Right. Because we don't. We don't want to hear that. Right. We only want to hear what supports our. Our. Our beliefs. So. But yeah, you know, I think the thing that a couple of them really jumped out at me, that I have really more questions for you than answers at this point. But like number three, which is incentives, and then number six, which is motives. To me, those could be very closely related. For example, when I think of incentives, the thing that immediately pops into my mind is, you know, the work that Dan Pink did a few years ago with his book Drive, what motivates People. And he. He really kind of popularized or, you know, introduced to the. To the. To the world. The. The difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. Right? Extrinsic meaning the, you know, waving the carrot, the bonus. Right. And, you know, the quota, if you will. These are. These are extrinsic motivators. You know, they always use the carrot dangling in front of the employee. Right. Versus intrinsic motivation, which is made up of autonomy, mastery, and purpose. Right? These are the things that, you know when you want to go to work because you. There's, you know, you. You understand your work, you have purpose, there's meaning, you believe in the cause and the why, as Simon Sinek would say, right? Like, this is an intrinsic motiv. And what they will say is, you know, extrinsic motivation can be effective for some employees, like perhaps on an assembly line or something like that, where you kind of gamify the work that can be effective. But what research shows is that beyond that, you know, when you get into, you know, kind of management supervision, you know, upper echelons of a company, that extrinsic motivation really doesn't work all that well. And so, yeah, so that one and what motivates people to me really could complement or perhaps make it more difficult to be successful. What do you think about that?

No, I think that sounds great. For me, my takeaway for that bucket or that area so far really has been the incentive of helping the learner become a problem solver. Like, for me, the tools are great. I really love the lean tools. They're powerful. But I want to make sure that at the end they feel confident to take ownership of a particular process that is driving them nuts and really try and seek a way to improve it to make their daily work better. And it kind of goes to gold rats quote that I started with this idea of, and that's why I love lean. It's not about just providing the external incentive, providing the answer, but empowering the person to motivating them to improve.

Yeah, it sounds very intrinsic motivation. Right. It's helping people find the meaning behind the work. Right?

Correct. Yeah.

And understanding the why of the company or even of that particular lean tool or, or particular problem we're going after. You know, here's why we're going after it and here's why, you know, hopefully you care, right? And then they'll buy into it and then, you know, this is when passion can, can get involved. Right? Yeah, so, but yeah, no, those are the first two that just really jumped out at me. The first one, expectations and feedback, for sure. I think that's very well positioned. You know, people want certainty, right. That's a very important part of people's happiness in their ability to do good work is that they understand what's expected of them and they know that if, you know, if we do certain things, then we can expect certain results or certain benefits, you know, if you will. So, yeah, I think, I think that again, that many of these all tie together to me, you know, because expectations and feedback done correctly directly leads into intrinsic motivation. Right. Because, you know, we're explaining here's what we want and here's how we're going to give you the feedback. But, but here's why we want It Right. This can't be. If we just say, I expect you, Randy, to do XYZ and I'm going to give you weekly feedback by sending you an email. Well, that's not going to be very empowering.

No, right? No, not at all.

You know, you're like, great, I look forward to that email.

For me, I think too. I've met many managers actually, who they'll see. Oh, wow, okay. The organization is launching a lean program and that sounds great. We have a lot of problems and processes that need improvement. I'm going to send a handful of my direct reports to this training. The manager doesn't go to the training. The manager really doesn't speak. Speak the lean language, doesn't really know what the core of a lean transformation is. And then the employees get back and the manager just expects, okay, well, you know, you were at the class, now make us lean. Yeah, exactly. Make it lean. Yeah. And so for me it really kind of, it was that aha. Moment of, well, if you want performance to change, if you want, you know, behavior, like habits, healthy problem solving habits, the managers really need to be involved and they need to be coached around that idea of how to provide feedback within a problem solving environment. It's not this, okay, you're doing it well. And so. And so isn't. And do it this way. It's more about helping them on their problem solving journey. So. Yeah, yeah.

And I think that the frequency of the feedback is critical. Right. Kind of as you let on there. I mean, if we, you know, the old school, you know, here's your annual performance goals, Randy, you know, and I'll check back in with you in six months and then, and then a year later, you know, I mean, this is horrible leadership. And if anyone's still doing that, please stop, you know, you know, because it's just, it's just the worst way to. You just. First of all, you're wasting your time and you're wasting your employees time because all they're going to do is game it to make sure they hit that metric at the expense of everything else that's probably important. Right? So, so this is why having this, this, this more of a coach and learner type relationship is so, is so, so, so effective. Right? Is because we can, we can shorten that, that Runway, right? We can, we can say, well, Randy, what are you working on? This Cool. What do you think's going to happen? This, when can we find out? You know, and then, and there's a, there's anticipation, right? There's excitement because I don't know. You don't know. Then you come back together. What'd you find out? You know, and we're, we're all genuinely interested, you know, now you talk about. So now we have expectations and feedback covered and you're probably motivated and heck, I'm motivated. Right. Because we're going to be learning. And so the true incentive to your point of creating problem solvers is a learning environment. Right. Where we're discovering and we're growing. Because ultimately that's what it's all about. Right.

Actually, if you don't mind, I have a question for you on that topic. So how, I'm curious how you would handle because I see it often where a manager will say I get it. You know, the six month performance eval, the annual performance eval. It's really a waste of time. I need to provide more of that feedback loop but I just don't have the time. There are too many fires. I know about going to the Gemba and being present. I just, I don't have the time to provide that level of feedback. How I'm curious. Any advice on answering a manager?

Yeah, well, they don't have time because they're not leading, first of all. And so you do have to take a few steps backwards from time to time. If you have a very traditional firefighting where you reward firefighting. Right. This is what we see often is the people that get promoted. You're really a vice president, senior vice president of firefighting. You've grown up through the ranks because great at putting out fires. Well, this is a lousy way of, of operating in a company. Right. And these companies are the ones where the people are saying I don't have time. And you know what? They're right. They don't have time because they have lousy leadership habits. Right. And so if, if, if, if the person says oh, I know about Gemba walks or I know about going to Gemba or going to the place the work is done and, and I know it's important and I'd say uh huh, and do you do it? And they'll, you know, and many times they don't. And if they do, it's really more management by walking around where they're just kind of, you know, kind of going through this rogue kind of, I don't know, litany of check the box. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not really engaging with the, with the people. So if people are stuck in that firefighting mode and where firefighting is going to be rewarded first of all they got to break out of that rut, you know, I mean, and, and then they got to stop and they got to realize that the definition of insanity, right, he's doing the same thing again and again, expecting different results, you know, and so we got to change the way that we lead. And many times, you know, what did a pogo said a long time ago? I. You know, we have found the problem. And, and, and he is. I. Right. And. And so many times these people that are saying these things, they're the ones who have to change. We had a guy call in here to Gemba Academy earlier this week, and. And he's a. He's been. He's a lean kind of experienced guy, you know, and other companies and whatnot. And he's. Now he's in charge of this new company and, and things have got a little bit. And he says, he looked around and, and he looked at his desk and his. His office and his environment. It was just a complete mess, you know, and he took full accountability. It was pretty powerful to hear it, you know, that he took full responsibility for their lack of. Of success and their lack of, you know, lean culture. And he realized it started with him, you know, and I don't know, so, I don't know if I answered your question, but.

No, you did. You. You. You did. So, so on that, would you recommend. Do you start with the leaders of an organization? Oh, Yeah.

I mean, Mr. Masaki Amai, he's got a famous kind of little shtick that he uses, and I got it in some videos, in fact, where he says, you know, there's three most important things for the success of Kaizen, you know, or success of continuous improvement. There's three of them. He said, the first one is top management commitment, and everybody's writing it down. Top management commitment, right? And then he says, and the second one is top management commitment. And he says, and then the third, as you know, is top management commitment. Right? And so, yeah, I mean, you. You really do want to have this top management commitment. Now someone's listening to this and they're like, I'm about to hit stop because I don't have top management commitment, so what am I supposed to do? You know, give up. And no, I wouldn't say. I would say, first of all, don't stop the podcast just because you don't have it, okay? You can. There's still. Still things that the individual can do to move their organization forward, and many of it is sometimes leading up, so to speak. Right. And. And trying to respectfully help their leadership, you know, find religion or whatever you want to call it. Right. You know, and so. But yeah, maybe if you're a leader, you know, you've gotta. And you want to go down this route, you can't just say, hey, Randy, Ron, why don't you go to this lean class over there? Or, hey, we'll go watch these Gemba Academy videos or go listen to this podcast. No, Me as a leader. You like? Randy, as a leader? We got to go first. Yeah. You know, we got to lead by doing. And it doesn't mean that I'm going to be an expert at all the things, but I got to know, you know, what's up and why we're doing this. And I gotta let everybody know that. Listen, Randy, I'm gonna empower you to become our expert, but I'm gonna be with you. And. And here's why we're doing it. Right. Expectations, you know, feedback, you know, incentives, all these things are starting to come in. Right. And it's okay that you go on to be the subject matter expert in all things lean. And maybe the vice president's not. Right. They might not be able to go out and do all the things, but they at least have an understanding of the strategies, the vision, and they know enough to be dangerous, so to speak. Right. As far as what's going on out there, they can go ask intelligent questions. They can say, hey, Randy, what are you working on? Cool. What do you think's going to happen? Cool. What actually happened? What did you learn? You know, and they can. They can engage in that and that routine of learning. Right. And so the organization is now a learning organization led from. They're the, you know, driven from the top, you know.

Yeah. And must be empowering, like, just to see, like, like you said, like, not all vice presidents. Presidents have to be lean experts or black belts, but if your. Your VP sees you and just stops you and say, hey, hey, Ron, you know, what's that? What's your next target condition?

Yeah.

Well, you know, what's that next step? Yep. For me, that would be a huge motivator and empower me on my continuous improvement journey.

And even more so, Randy, So I say, what's your next step? And I'm not involved. I'm not your coach. Right. I'm just the vice president. And I said, what's your next step? And you say, xyz, and you're gonna find out on Friday how cool would it be for that manager or that vice president. Hey, Randy. Not to Put you on the spot. But I'm just. I'm curious, man. You know, you told me on Wednesday that you were gonna find out about that thing on Friday, and, well, it's Friday. What did you learn? I'm dying to know. Can't sleep, you know, and really mean it. And goodness, what kind of message would that send you? This guy cares.

Talk about true cultural change.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It doesn't take much time. Just a couple minutes and just honest conversation. No, thank you, Ron. That really does answer my question. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. What other questions you got? Like, as it relates to this model? I mean, again, maybe we could just brainstorm ideas more than me throwing out.

Answers, but I'm curious in terms of. I know, like this, like. So, number one, I think, you know, you covered really well around expectations and feedback and making sure the leaders are on their, you know, understand what continuous improvement is. I'm curious in terms of number two, like tools and resources. So it's. According to this model, it's a powerful one in terms of behavior change. So for you, in your experience, are there any tools, any resources that come to mind?

Well, you're setting me up. Yeah. Gembaacademy.com and you go over to the pricing tab and not. Just kidding. Yeah, no, I mean, obviously.

I mean, joking aside, though, right? I'm not a quality expert. I'm not an engineer. And when I first I was told about Gemba Academy, the podcast, a couple years ago by someone, and I was a little nervous at first because I thought, oh, geez, am I going to understand a lot of this? I had already taken a couple classes and read a couple books, but I still thought that the terminology and the problems that you were going to be discussing were just going to be over my head. And I. I listen, and I'm a huge fan and supporter of your work. It motivates me to keep learning and to keep pushing on my own lean journey. So, joking aside, it. Powerful resource.

Yeah.

Well, thanks.

Yeah. You know, what's interesting is kind of our model really, as our company is. Yeah, we had a lot of videos and podcasts and blog articles and this and that. Know a lot of information, you know, to. To give to the world. And a lot of it's free even, you know, because we just want to help the world and. But what's interesting about it is what. What I would say is it's not about the videos, you know, it's not even about the podcast. It's not about the blog articles. It's not about this or that. It's about, you know, it's about what you, what you do with the information, you know, and so I'd rather, you know, sometimes, you know, we'll get the, we'll get the situation where someone's kind of treating it as more of a check the box, you know, we got to go watch these videos, you know, as part of our learning development, you know, to, you know, back to that, you know, that, that six month check in or that one. You got to go watch these videos for your, you know, for your job performance or what, you know, and it's like, you know, I mean, it's better than nothing, I guess. I mean, watching a video hopefully will help them in some ways, but I would rather watch one video, listen to one podcast, you know, and then go do something with it and then see what you learn from that. Right? So what I would say about the tools is learn. First of all, it is important to learn as much as you can and never stop learning breaks. One of the things that drives me nuts about our movement, you know, our continuous improvement movement is, you know, the, the lean guy who's like, oh yeah, black belt, green belt, you know, they get all negative Nancy about this or that, you know, and, and then, and then the six Sigma, gah, you lean guys, you know, it's all simple. Go stand in your circle, whatever, you know, you know, it's like everybody just needs to like, kind of chill out a little bit and just, and just, you know, realize that there's, there's value in knowledge, right? And the more knowledge you have doesn't necessarily mean you have wisdom, but you've got knowledge and that can be, that can be helpful. Now it can also be dangerous if, if you, you know, every time you get a hammer, you go walking around looking for anything to smash, right? You know, so, so you got to be, you got to balance it as well. You got to realize that just because you learn something doesn't mean you got to immediately run out and use it because, you know, you want to, you want to wield the tool when it's, when it's needed, right? And this is where, this is where more of a scientific thinking pattern can really help, because it can. When we identify obstacles or we identify things that need to be overcome, that's when the correct tool should come out, not the other way around. We shouldn't have to say, I got a tool, where can I go use it? Right?

But, but process maps are so fun and I just want to do it all the Time.

Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. You know, and, and, yeah, exactly. And, and, you know, but, you know, it doesn't mean that, you know, if you learn about process mapping, doesn't mean that going out and mapping a process is bad. You know, you can do that and it helps you understand. In most cases, you'll be like, like, really? We do it that way? No, that's not how we do it. Yeah, that is how we do it. You know, and then, yeah, you can start making improvements. But. But, yeah, you gotta, you gotta be smart with the tools. But at the same time, you shouldn't, you should never stop learning. Right? I mean, if you. Because the minute you think you got it all or you think you know it all, boy, that's when the, the fall is about to, about to, about to occur, in my opinion.

Yeah. Thanks. Thank you, Ron. And if I would just add, too. Cause I know for me, I mentioned my introduction to continuous improvement was through my manager, who's a good mentor now, Mike Boos, who just said, please read this book. And for me, those listening, if you take one thing from this podcast, find your favorite Gemba Academy episode, your favorite Lean book, and pass it on to that, to that person who you could see has that problem solving nature and maybe is very new to it or hasn't been exposed to Lean at all, and just say, you know what? Please take the time, listen to this episode, read this book. Because for me, if Mike didn't do that, I don't know if I ever would have taken that step towards Lean. Because at first, for a lot of people, you know, I've spoken with, one of the first messages is, oh, but, you know, that's for, that's for the engineers, that's for the quality experts, that's for manufacturing folks. And not really, you know, like, a lot of these concepts could be applied literally, like, anywhere, any work environment.

I just got done interviewing and episode probably aired last week. So the people have already heard it, maybe if they listened last week. But a gentleman who, he's in the Netherlands and he works in a, in a healthcare facility with mentally and intellectually disabled people.

Right.

And he's applying Lean Six Sigma, all that to, you know, improve the work that they do for these very, you know, incredible people. Right? And so, yeah, I mean, this stuff knows no boundaries, Right?

Yeah.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very good. Well, my goodness, look at that 40 minutes I've gone by, it feels like it's flown by. It's been fun.

I know it has.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, any Final kind of words of wisdom, a final question or anything like that. I mean, we could do a Part 2 interview down the road if other stuff pops up. This was fun.

Yeah, no, I really, like I said, I mentioned if, you know, pass it on, really. I've noticed that a lot of people in the lean community are very supportive of, of teaching others and including others and helping people to just begin their journey and strengthen their problem solving capability. And I would encourage your listeners just to keep that up. I think it makes the lean community special compared to other communities that are out there. But yeah, and to thank you because you're. The work that you do, Ron, really is beneficial. I know myself, I commute a lot and I'm in the car a lot and I'm able to listen to your podcasts and absorb those gems of wisdom that fall out. So thank you for what you do.

Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, no, I mean, thank. And it's people like you who make the show happen. And then obviously there are a lot of other people at Gamba Academy behind the scenes here. Greg edits all these and Jessica writes all the show notes for these and. And yeah, so we got a full team working on this and it's, it's one of my passions really. And come to find out, we don't make a whole lot of money from this podcast because it's free, you know, so. But it's one of our, it's one of our, I don't know, it's one of my favorite vehicles to, to spread the message. Right. Because like you said, you can easily today to, you know, forward, hey, listen to this podcast and click a button and it's going, you know, so yeah, there's other good podcasts out there as well. You know, I don't know if you'd like. Mark Graben does a. He doesn't do a weekly show, but he's got hundreds of episodes out there because he's been doing it forever. But yeah, he's got a good one and I don't know, but just a bunch of other, even just non lean related podcasts that are. That are awesome. Do you listen to other podcasts at all?

I do, I kind of. I listen to quite a few all over. But in terms of like continuous improvement, do you have any that you enjoy listening to?

Yeah, you know, full disclosure, I don't actually listen to a lot of continuous improvement podcasts because, you know, I work at it day in and day out. I mean, I'll check out Mark's podcast. Him and his buddy Jamie Flinchpaw started a fun one. They've only done a few episodes, but it's something like, I remember what they called it, but it's something about like Whiskey and Lean or something like that where they're like, it's kind of like more of a, kind of light hearted. They're super smart guys, you know, and so they'll talk about a topic of the day. So, so there's a few of them out there that are, that are doing good work. So. But yeah, like, I, I, I really enjoy listening to, you know, like, you know, like I've talked about James Clear, you know, on the podcast before with Atomic Habits and that kind of, that kind of, kind of neuroscience and you know, social science. That kind of stuff really interested me. So I spent a lot of time, you know, you like, listen to the Joe Rogan once in a while. You know, the guy's a little.

Same here.

Yeah, a little bit crazy, you know, you know, really potty mouth, you know, that guy. But, you know, so don't play it with your kids around.

You know, he's, he's got, he has some interesting guests.

Oh, for sure.

I just listened today. It's a, it's a bit of an older episode, but he had, had like Steven Pinker on and it was a fabulous conversation.

And he's super smart, man, that guy Joe Rogan, you know, I mean, he doesn't, you don't realize it, but boy, he's smart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good stuff.

Awesome. All right, after this, I will be googling Whiskey and Lean and yeah, I should know it.

I'm, I'll tell you what. We'll find that podcast and we'll put it in the show notes for this episode.

Sounds great.

This will be episode 277, so you can go whiskey and lean or whatever it is. Yeah, good stuff. All right, well, hey, Rain, this has been fun. Thanks for coming on and keep up the good work and let me know, let me know how things get on with those, what you learn with all these six buckets.

Sounds good, Ron, thank you so much for having me on. It's been a great conversation.

All right, you take care, Randy.

Take care. Bye.

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