GA 294 | Using Improv to Improve with Mary Lemmer

Using your imagination to consider a new way of being a new character. You could be a new situation so that then you can actually do the things you need to do to reach that new path.

Hey, everyone, this is Ron, and just got done recording one of the most fun episodes that we've ever done here on Gemba Academy. It's with a nice lady named Mary Lemmer. And Mary is an improv professional. She's an extra at Improv Comedy, but she also runs training for leaders using improv. And when Mary kind of approached us about the idea of doing a podcast, I thought, my goodness, that sounds so fun. You know, I think everyone's been to an improv show, and it's. It's a. It's incredible to sit there and watch these people, you know, act so quickly on their feet and have so much fun and create fun for everybody else. So I was really interested to hear how were they able to tie those principles into the business world, into leadership? And so that's what Mary and I talk about. And she explains how many of the principles of improv can be used for the benefit of a business, for people, for relationships. And, boy, we had a lot of fun. And we even did a little improv towards the end of the episode. So you have to listen to the end to hear how I did. So show notes for this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 294. Again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 294. And as always, if you'd like to take a sneak peek at all Gemba Academy has to offer with our Lean and Six Sigma training videos, please head over to Gembaacademy.com okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Mary Lemmer, welcome to the show. How are you?

I'm great. Thanks for having me, Ron.

Oh, as we were kind of chatting before, Hit record. I'm super excited to have you on. This whole topic of improv leadership and training is, as you know, something that we've not really explored on the. On the podcast before. So really, really excited for this one.

Yeah, I'm excited too. I'm excited to share some of the learnings and practices with more people.

So a bunch of the folks that kind of follow the Lean movement, we just. Many of us were in Chicago, gosh, a week or so ago. Time flies now. And one of the keynote presenters was a gentleman named. What was his name? John Sweeney. Have you ever heard of John?

John Sweeney?

Yeah. So he's Just like entrepreneur guy or whatever, innovation guy. But he's also. He also does improv. And so it was interesting, like, hearing him kind of talk about, you know, the parallels between our two universes. And so, yeah, I'm interested to hear if you have some of the same things. I won't say what he said because I don't want to, like, bias you or anything, but he was really fun.

Well, I'm glad to hear it. I'm glad you got to experience and learn a little bit more about that connection before our conversation.

Good, good, good. All right. Well, Mary, we like to begin all of our episodes with our guest sharing a favorite quote or two. So do you have one?

Yeah. One of my favorite quotes is by Amy Poehler, who, as you may know, is a really talented woman who's been in many comedies and studied at the Second City in Chicago actually, and she has a quote that's plastered somewhere on the wall of the Second City, that is, no one looks stupid when they're having fun. And I really like this quote, and I use it a lot in my work and in my life because I notice it. And when you're having fun and learning and smiling, you don't look stupid. You're part of. If you're confidently doing something and doing it with conviction, that is going to actually bring people into whatever you're doing and invite them into what you're doing versus scare them away.

No, I love that. You know, and it kind of reminds me of like, quit taking yourself so seriously. Right? I mean, just lighten up a little bit. Have fun, enjoy. And if so, what if we mess up? You know, let's learn from it, right? And smile and have fun. Because life's short, right?

Yeah, exactly. And it's so important. And you can so tell in an improv show if you're watching performers and their not having fun, you can tell. And I notice this within companies too, where teams that are not having fun, working together or doing what they're doing, you can tell. And it starts to infect the team a little bit. And so I think we sometimes underestimate the power of fun in the workplace and fun within, obviously, structure and goals and processes. But when you inject fun in that, it can be a lot more productive and, well, a lot more fun.

I love it. Mary, tell us a little bit about your background, maybe how you got into this line of work, and then definitely tell us what you're up to these days.

Yeah, so my background starts with starting a company when I was a teenager. I started a gelato business and didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't have any experience, any job experience, or definitely didn't have experience starting and running a company. And so little did I know I was improvising, making this stuff as I went along. And it really got me interested in creating products and entrepreneurship and building companies to make a positive impact on the world. And so from there I went on to work in venture capital. Actually, after college I joined an early stage venture capital firm investing in in early stage companies, mostly software, doing kind of B2B or consumer tech marketplaces. And I got to work with so many different CEOs and types of teams and companies. And I also had a ton of anxiety because at this point I still had the business that I had started as a teenager. I was getting up at six in the morning to go to the gym. I'd go to the venture capital firm till about 6 or 7, and then I'd go to the gelato business till midnight. And I would do that all again. And it didn't take too long for me to hit a breaking point. And several breaking points that kept getting more and more intense and really affected my mental and physical health. And so I took a much needed vacation. And when I came back, I decided to sign up for an improv class because I'd always been interested in acting and performing and I wanted to do something fun that wasn't work related. And I was hooked. The moment I went into this improv class. It was the first time since really 14. So at this point it'd been like 10 years of me feeling like I had to have all the answers and figure out all this stuff. And for the first time I walked in this improv class, I'm like, wait, I can just be and react and there's no right or wrong. I just get to practice being all these different characters. And so it really helped me reduce my anxiety as an entrepreneur. And as I took more and more improv classes, I realized that the entrepreneurs and teams that I was working with as an investor could really stand to use some improv skills. Things like adapting to changing situations, building trust among teams, communicating clearly and making decisions with limited information, and being in a pitch session trying to raise money from a venture capitalist and being asked questions that they weren't necessarily expecting. And so over time, I developed a curriculum I called Improv for Entrepreneurs. And I would go around the country to startup accelerators and teach these workshops to help those entrepreneurs prepare for demo day where they would Pitch their companies to investors and it was a hit. People had fun, they learned. And over the past 12 years now I've developed more and more exercises based on that experience. And then going off into work for a high growth startup in Silicon Valley, I was a director at what they call a unicorn, which is now a multi billion dollar company. And I noticed how the leadership skills of those entrepreneurs can infect or impact the teams that they're building and the psychological safety of teams and how to grow fast, growing effective and empathetic teams so that they're not creating these toxic cultures. Because if we think about startups and startup leadership, the only thing that grows as fast as startups is cancer. And cancer kills us. So if we don't from an early point, like work to build really effective teams that can listen to one another and act quickly and be present to their team members and supportive of one another, the things that we do as improvisers, then there can be trouble down the road. So now what I do is I work with leaders and teams to bring these tools and techniques and this methodology to help them improve leadership, team effectiveness and communication so that they can achieve their goals in a supportive and effective way.

Got it, Got it. Okay, so I got a crazy question for you. So I am looking at your LinkedIn profile right now and just sent a connection request by the way. So it's pending for you and I notice in your picture, it's a really cool picture that you are looking up and to the right. So I did a little, little NLP training back in the day and I remember looking up to the right is when often we imagining something. So was that on purpose looking up to the right? Are you trying to send us like kind of an improv imagination or was that just a happy accident?

Wow, Ron, you are the first person to ever make that connection and notice that. And I'm a very intentional person and I have done some NLP coaching and work and learning about that methodology and that was one of the most impactful learnings that I had around that looking where your eyes go is telling you something about what you're thinking and feeling and improv and Improve, which is the name of my company, is all about using your imagination to consider a new way of being a new character. You could be a new situation so that then you can actually do the things you need to do to reach that new path. And so, and a lot of the training work we do embeds neuro, linguistic programming and other types of behavioral psychology and research and Performance methods so that you can. And this was like a limitation that I always felt with nlp, where I could go so far, like with what I call thought therapy and imagine that. But then being able to practice it is where improv really comes in, where I can imagine a new way of being and a new. Like, maybe I want to be more confident or I want to have a team that is more inspired. And so I can think about what that would look like. And then I can use improv to practice new ways of being to see what actually leads to that result. Because I can imagine all I want. But if I'm not grounded in reality and practicing new ways to get there, I'll never reach those new goals.

Yeah, or you're just lying, right? And you're not even being. There's no truth to your imagination.

Right.

So, you know, I've been to, you know, many improv shows over the years, and so fun to go and watch, watch professionals like yourself do your thing. And it's just like incredible, right? It's like, how are they so able to, you know, adapt? And I think it's. It's easy for a person like me who has no training and would be scared to death to have to go try to do something like that to being. I have a. I have a feeling. My hypothesis is that for folks like, you know, Mary and other professionals who know how to do this, it's gotta be like freedom. Like this freedom and this freeing experience that you know you're not going to fail. Right. Is that sort of true or not?

Yeah. I mean, I feel like you're a mind reader, Ron. Like, freedom is the word that I don't know if you're familiar with. Simon Sinek.

Oh, yeah.

So my why for why I do this work is freedom. And to create a way and inspire people to feel free and feel free to be themselves because they're good enough just as they are. And there's ways to improve. Like, we can always do better, but when we start from that place of self acceptance and accepting others, like, that's so freeing. And improv is so freeing because, you know, one of the tenets of improv is there are no mistakes. What you do in an improv scene and in life is going to have consequences. And so it's about being aware of, okay, if my character does this, that's going to impact these other characters on stage. But I'm going to try it, I'm going to see, and then I'm going to keep learning that. Okay. If I Touch a hot stove, it's going to burn. So if I say something this way, this is what the outcome is going to be. And then we continue to learn and develop from there. Just like if we practice that in our life of recognizing, look, we're all doing the best we can, given the tools and experiences we've had so far, that can be very freeing to recognize that and to feel that I love it.

So. All right, let's just jump into really the topic of the day, like, improv comedy and leaders. Like, how is that working? Why does it work? Why do you think it's important?

Yeah. So, you know, at the surface, people see, like, oh, it's fun, and it's great for laughing and team building. But at a deeper level, it's about change, it's about growth, it's about developing full leaders, similar to what we alluded to earlier with nlp. It's about changing a circumstance, being able to act quickly and make new decisions, to get to new places. I like to explain it as I'm like, giving people M and Ms. With vitamins in them. Like, they taste good and they're good for you. They're fun, they're sweet, but deep down, they're improving your health. And our methodology is fun and it's good for you because of that fundamental ability to accept things as they are. So we have a principle where it's yes and say yes, accept the reality of the situation and then build on it and then make a decision based on that reality. And then recognize there are no mistakes. Right. You're going to choose in action and then see what happens from there. Be really present. Like, play the scene you're in. Be very present to what's going on and notice what's happening so you can notice the ripple effects of the decision you're making. And then if you want to change and grow, if it feels weird, you got to do it. Because if we stay in our comfort zone and we continue to run the same patterns, the same programming over and over again, then we're not going to get any different results. And so why improv is so great for leaders is it provides a way for leaders to practice these new choices and these new characters and these new ways so that I can expand my range as a leader. Right. We all have this range, and most of the time, we sit in a very small part of the range because that's our comfort zone. But if we want to be the best leaders, we can be these full leaders. We need the largest range that we can and we need to know and have that situational awareness to know when to go into different parts of the range. Right. The, the type of leader I am and the type of character I am is going to be different if I'm selling the product versus if I'm having a difficult conversation about a raise with one of the people that works for me and wants a raise and it's not the right time, or if I'm in a board meeting versus if I'm at home with my family. And so we look at this like a toolbox. And so improv allows leaders to take. Okay, you've got a hammer already when you come in. And now let's get you a screwdriver and a saw and an Allen wrench and all these other tools that you can first practice so that you take this self awareness of knowing which tools you have, and then you can get the tools to make a new choice. So you've got the awareness that, hey, I've only got a hammer. Now we're going to give you a saw, an Allen wrench, a screwdriver, and then you're going to get to practice using those new tools in the improvised environment so that you can make a bunch of mistakes and fail in a bounce house, basically, where you're not going to get hurt. So that you develop the confidence and the muscle memory and the way of doing and using these tools so that you can use them in the workplace. And that's what's really powerful about it because it takes self awareness, giving new tools based on that self awareness and the confidence to use those new tools to increase that full leadership. Toolbox.

Yeah. So what does it look like when you bring some room full of vice presidents and CEOs and whatnot? Like, what do you do? Do you teach them how to do regular improv first or just to get an idea of the principle and the flow of it, or do you do something else?

Yeah, I mean, well, I will say that it's so much fun to have a room full of bankers acting out animal noises and sounds. Maybe one of the few places you get to. But we start off by everyone kind of coming together. We talk about what we're going to do, we first fire the inner critic, and we set kind of a space for not judging each other and not judging the improv and not judging ourselves, recognizing that we're going to do some new things and we're going to really stretch ourselves and try some new stuff, and we're not going to judge if it looks stupid. Right. We're going to have fun, so it's not going to look stupid. And then we go through the basic principles and we start to do some warm up exercises. So we really start by doing some group exercises that set this foundation of we're listening to each other, we're accepting the reality and then building on it. We start to get to know each other through these fun, engaging exercises that are building the foundation of the skills that we can then layer on top of. So, for example, we play a very popular improv game called Zip, Zap Zop. Now if you go take an improv class anywhere and the theater doesn't have you play this game, leave.

Because.

It'S basically everyone's in a circle and we're passing around the words Zip, zap, Zop in a pattern. So person A will point to person B and say zip, B points to C and says zap. And then so forth, Zip, zap, zap, zip, zap, zap. And then we introduce another pattern and we layer in a few patterns so that the group has to pass multiple patterns at the same time. And so this, I share this example because it's one of the earliest exercises we do. It builds on each other and it establishes that, hey, we have to listen to one another, we have to be paying attention and being present so that we can notice if there's one or two or three patterns coming our way. We need to accept when the pattern comes and then move it forward to someone else. And as leaders, we're constantly multitasking in our lives. And so this exercise allows us to practice that multitasking when the stakes are low. And when the stakes are low, psychological safety is high. So we can start to really build those foundational skills around listening, being present so that as we go through the rest of the training, we've got that foundation. We're not trying to add rooms to our house without that there. And then we go through a series of partner exercises which are allowing us to practice objective observations of each other in a scene so that we can start to notice verbal and non verbal communication and be able to share with someone, hey, I notice that you slouch when you are talking. And it's not judgmental, it's just pointing out something that someone observes so that prepares that person to be able to make a new choice. And so a lot of people don't realize that they're not smiling when they're talking. People think they're smiling and they aren't. And so these objective observations bring out these types of Observations to say, you think you're smiling, you're not smiling. So that's the way that we can start to establish. Here's the reality of the situation. You're asking for money from someone and you're not looking at them in the eyes or your body language is like you're slouched over and looking down. We're going to try looking up, pulling your shoulders back. It reads to be more confident. Now try delivering the same line. And so we do these partner exercises and then we go into doing some more scene work where we take real life leadership situations and challenges that the people in the group are actually facing. And we use those to inspire improv scenes. So things like difficulty working with a colleague, trouble raising money, I need to fire someone. And we practice those, we use that and we have two people in the scene. We get to share these objectives, observations, and provide new ways to do that same scene to heighten the scene. And now in improv comedy, we heighten the scene to make it funnier so we make new choices to make the scene funnier. In our trainings, we heighten the scene to make it more effective in reaching whatever the goal is. So if my goal is to raise money, I can see objectively what someone is doing in that interaction, provide a few suggestions that will be more likely to reach that goal, and then allow someone to practice making those changes and recognizing, oh, yeah, that was more effective. Or for people that are in situations where they have to have a difficult conversation at work, maybe set a boundary or tell someone they can't finish the project on time, we have them practice having that conversation and recognize that it's not as scary as they thought it was going to be. Because part of the reason that they don't want to deliver the news is they're afraid and there's something going on that makes them deliver the message in a less than effective way. So we do these scenes that are inspired and used as a tool to get people to that place where they can make real change and practice that real change.

What role does like empathy play in the whole process? Because you talked about like, you know, we have to fire someone or give someone some what could potentially be seen as bad news.

Empathy is core to a lot of improv. And a lot of people that do this kind of training, they develop more empathy for someone else because you're able to see how someone else responds in a way that you're observing what's going on and you get to hear what that person thinks after that conversation. We Paused a scene, and maybe Joe and Mike are in a scene together. And Joe says to Mike, hey, Joe, I'm gonna have to let you go. And Mike responds as he does. And then we pause the scene and we ask Mike. We say, mike, how did it feel the way Joe delivered that message? What was going on for you? What do you think is going on? And then Joe gets to hear how his words, how he's saying something, what he's actually saying is impacting this other person. And Mike may say, I feel like he's really angry at me, and I did something. I don't know. He seems very upset. And Joe may not mean to come across that way. So it builds empathy for recognizing how we interpret something and how we feel about something isn't necessarily how someone else feels about something, because a lot of times people are projecting the way they would feel onto someone else. And this allows people. It kind of like opens up the kimono to recognize, like, oh, everyone does react different ways. The way that I would react isn't how this person reacts. And then we get to build more of that empathy and compassion for one another.

Now, what about, like, personality types? Like, say, an extrovert versus an introvert? Because I would assume that, well, I don't know, maybe I'm completely wrong. That, like, being in an improv world would draw the extrovert, the person who's not afraid to get up in front of people. Is that true, or is there just as many introverts that thrive in this environment?

So it's a lot of introverts love doing improv for different reasons than the extrovert. So this is probably the number one question that especially tech companies ask me when they're considering bringing improv into their companies. They're like, well, we have a lot of shy people. I don't think they'll like this. They don't really talk that much. And I'm like, trust me, they're gonna love it most. Because people are labeled introverts at the office, and then all of a sudden, that's their character. They expect other people to expect them to be introverted, and so they start to fit that role. And what improv does, what these trainings do, is it allows people the opportunity to play a different character. And it's especially powerful when they get to do this with their colleagues because they get to play a different character around their colleagues so that their colleagues can notice, like, oh, hey, Ben over there, he's really shy at the office, but look at. He's not Shy, like he's totally capable of being extroverted. And so Ben loves it. Because now Ben doesn't feel stuck as an introvert at the office because that's what everyone has considered him to be. Now people see that he is capable of being outgoing and fun and cracking a joke. And so when people and researchers, oh, you want to. People want to bring their full selves to the office. It's not about being able to bring my hobbies to work and having a cycling club or a cooking class or yoga after work. It's about being able to bring my full humanity, my full range of emotions so that one day I can be really quiet and be heads down and write a bunch of code and get stuff done, and the next day I can be in the lunchroom talking about the latest Netflix special that I watched. And it was so fun and cracking some jokes and being really social. And as soon as we put people in those categories, that's when they start to play those roles. And we have to recognize people can play multiple characters. So extroverts love it because it's an opportunity for them to shine and be extroverted. Introverts love it because it's an opportunity for them to be something different than what they normally are and see what that feels like and let their colleagues know, like, hey, I'm capable of this range. And now at the office, it's kind of broken the ice a little bit.

Yeah. Well then an extrovert also, depending on the scene, may get the practice being an introvert and that could be interesting for them. Right?

Exactly. And it also, to your point about empathy, it builds empathy for people that are typically introverts. Right. If I'm an extrovert and I'm in a scene where I'm called an introvert and I have to play that character and now I get to imagine what it feels like to go through life and go through work as an introvert. This is particularly helpful too for status in organizations. So a lot of managers are unaware how they come across to people that want worked for them. And so if they can be in a scene and play that lower status character and go through life, what it's like when their boss is constantly telling them no or giving them like really short notice on deadlines or not supporting their ideas, they get to see and feel what that experience is like. So they build some more empathy and compassion for the people that are working for them. So.

Okay, I gotta. I have so many things that I could ask you. We could be here for Four hours. So I'll just. This is really fun and interesting. So talk a little bit about maybe some of your, I don't know, most memorable experiences on the improv stage to where you were just like, wow, how did that happen?

Yeah. So I think one of my favorites was I was at Second City Hollywood visiting a friend and former classmate from Second City in Chicago. And we went to see a show and we got pulled up onto the stage. We weren't, like, supposed to be performing in it.

Did they know you were improv folks, though?

They did, because my friend performed at Second City Hollywood and we had chatted with them before, and so we kind of, like, had to improvise. Improvising. So it was very meta and it was really fun. I still have a video clip from it, and it was some show that one of the improvisers, and it was visiting from somewhere else. And literally, like the next week I saw him in a movie. And it was one of those moments of being like, wait, I was just on stage with this guy, like, by mistake, and. And now I'm like, watching a movie. It was like this kind of surreal experience and recognizing one to be ready to improvising. Right. Always be ready. And also recognizing how talented, how multifaceted and how multi talented these performers are that I'm so grateful that I've gotten to train with and perform with that they're doing things like performing on stage and television on Broadway, because the skills are very transferable, not just for business leadership, which is the application I use them for, but also for performers that want to be film actors or Broadway actors, or for people that have no performance interest or no leadership interest and just want to be a better parent, a better friend, a better human.

I love it. I love it. So to wrap things up, Mary, why don't you leave our listeners with, I don't know, one thing that they could do today? They're listening to this right now. They're probably smiling. Hopefully they've enjoyed this episode. But what's one practical thing that each of us can do to make our lives better, to make our businesses better, just to improve?

Yeah. A great question, and I will share with listeners this exercise that we do in our trainings and. And it's called first word, last word. And what we ask people to do when they're in pairs is we ask them to have a conversation with a twist where the first person says something and then the second person has to say something in response, using the other person's last word as their first Word. And so if person A. I mean, we could try it right now.

Yeah, let's try it.

Why don't you say something to me, Ron? Tell me what you had for breakfast, in a sentence this morning.

I had coffee for breakfast.

Breakfast is my favorite meal of the day.

Daytime is such a great time to be awake.

Awake is what I am when I get up in the morning.

Morning people are often excited and a little bit annoying.

Annoying people are everywhere. If you look hard enough during the afternoon, I'll cut it off there.

Afternoon people. No, I'm just kidding. That's fun. But that's really interesting because it forces you to listen so careful.

Yeah, so that's exactly it. Because how often do we actually wait until someone else is done talking before we start thinking about what we're going to say next? And in an improv scene, we can't afford to do that because whatever someone's saying is giving us clues as to what's going on on the scene that we need in order to react to. And in life, it's the same if you're in a meeting and someone's sharing an idea or talking about something or some new product initiative. We want to hear all those. Those are gifts, that whole thing that someone's saying. But it really takes practice of being present and fully listening before turning our mind on to think what's next. So that's part one of this. And what people can take away is try this. You don't have to be playing the game. You could be in a meeting and just waiting for that last word so that you're staying present and listening to what that other person is saying. And then the second part of this is making meaning. Right? We hit up on this too, where what word you end your sentence with is the word your partner has to start with. So set your partner up for success. Make your partner look good. And if you end your sentence with of or other random words, morning is kind of hard. That person has to react to that. So keeping that in mind is another great way to work this into your own team meetings and way that you're building support among your teams and listening fully to what other people have to say.

So good. First word, last word. I love it. I love it. All right, so listen, Mary, I am. I'm genuinely interested in your training, like, for myself and my team here at Gemba Academy. So, like, how does someone go about it? What do we do? We go to a website or what's the best way?

Yeah, check out our website. It's improv and then the number4.com improv4.com and there's a bunch of videos of some of the work we've done, a little bit more information and then a contact form if you want to contact us to learn more or bring this to your teams.

And I already know you're on LinkedIn. Just look for the. To the person looking up to the right named Mary Lemmer. L E M M E R. Right, that's it. All right. Well, this has been so fun. I knew it was going to be. I had such. I was really looking forward to this all day because I. Like I said, this is a first for the podcast. So thanks for coming on and thanks for making me smile and for teaching me. First word, last word. I'm going to totally play with my kids tonight.

Great for family dinners. I look forward to hearing how that goes. And thanks so much for having me on, Ron.

All right, Take care, Mary. You too. Thanks for listening to the Gemba Academy podcast. Now we invite you to take a no strings attached, fully functional Test drive of GembaCademy.com gain immediate access to more than a thousand Lean and Six Sigma learning resources, all free of charge at GembaAcademy.com.