GA 305 | Building Trust and Leveraging Conflict with Robb Holman

Now, I think this is the place where team members can thrive together. This is the place with that vulnerability, that inspiration, the practical tools that are necessary. I got your back, you got mine, and we're gonna climb the mountain together.

Today. I'm excited to welcome Rob Holman to the show. Now, Rob and I first connected over LinkedIn and got to talking about the topic of trust and the role that but it plays in leadership and business. And as it turns out, Rob is an author. He's written actually a couple books and his most recent book is called All In. And it really centers on the whole idea of trust and how we can harness that for the better within any organization. And so I thought it was an obvious tie in to what we lean thinkers are very passionate about, namely trust, Trust with one another, trust within an organization, how to foster that learning, organization, and how to have a fearless organization, as Amy Edmondson writes about in her book Fearless Organization. So thought it was a really good topic and that everyone would be interested in and sure enjoyed talking to Rob. He's very passionate and excited, as you're about to hear, and it was a good time. So show notes for this particular episode, which will include links to everything Rob and I talk about, can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 305. And as always, if you want to learn more about all we have to offer over at GEMBA Academy, including all of the material that we do have on building trust within an organization and respect the humanness of people, respect for people. Be sure to check that all out over@gembaacademy.com okay, enough from me. Let's get to the ship. Rob Holman, welcome to the show. How are you, Ron?

I'm doing great today. It's a joy and an honor to be with you. I'm looking forward to our dialogue, for sure.

Yeah. No, excellent. So we were kind of conversing over LinkedIn a little bit, and you've written a couple books and most recently you wrote a book focused on the topic of trust, I think. I think it's safe to say is a foundational aspect of your newest book. And we were talking a little bit before we hit the record button that in this lean movement of ours, respect for people and trust and these really go to the heart of what we're trying to do in our movement. So I know you're not a traditional lean person, so to speak, but I know you're familiar with agile and lean a little bit, but I think it's a Perfect harmony. And there's a perfect relationship between what you're writing about and what you're passionate about and what we lean thinkers are also passionate about.

So.

Yeah. So thanks for coming on.

Oh, absolutely. I think trust is one of those things, Ron, that I think every human being, certainly every working professional, but every human being can relate to. Because at the end of the day, you know, I define trust as an assured reliance on another person. And, you know, when we have. There's something said about when we can rely on a person or a group of people to accomplish a common goal together. And there also is something to be said when there's a disconnect there and there's a lack of trust. And I always say that if we don't have trust, we don't have anything. So why not take the necessary time to learn about trust, how to get really practical with building and fostering trust so we can actually climb the mountain together as it relates to team dynamics.

For sure. For sure. All right, well, Rob, we like to begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote. So do you have one that you want to share?

I do. And this actually comes. This is my own heart. Something I came up with. It just came out of my heart and flew out of my mouth years ago when my oldest niece, she calls me up one time and says, uncle Rob, I have a school project. I'm supposed to find a quote that a family member or close friend lives by. And I knew I could call and count on you. And I said, honey, I have so many different quotes. But one that I did just truly I live by and really try to help others live by is much of the world sees the glass half empty or half filled, but I always see it overflowing. And she was like, I knew I could count on you. And I just find that perspective is everything. And as it relates to people and trust and just team dynamics and building companies and healthy organizations, so much comes down to perspective, because you can have two people that go through the same set of circumstances, and one is tearing their hair out. They're like, I can't believe in causing all this drama and questioning things left and right in an unhealthy way. And the other views it as an. The challenge, if you will, as an opportunity for growth and focuses on the positive and how they can improve and how their entire team can improve. And so perspective, in my opinion, is everything.

Love it. I love it. All right, well, hey, Rob, before we kind of dive into the topic of the day, tell us a Little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and how you got into the work that you're doing today.

Yeah, so great question. I would probably people call serial entrepreneur. I'm 44 years old, so in many regards, I feel like I'm just starting out in life with a young family. I've been married for over 15 years, have three kids. My oldest is 11, middle child is 9, and my youngest is. So it gives you a little bit of sense of where I am on the personal front, business front. I've had just honestly, Ron, the amazing opportunity, and I can't believe I'm even saying this. It's like, pinch me. But I've had the opportunity to start nine organizations in the last 22 years. Six have been for profit and three have been nonprofit. And so I have a heart for, in a sense, rolling up my sleeves, getting down and dirty, sharing a vision with people, and kind of the rally cry for purpose and vision. And then quite frankly, find people that are far more gifted than I am in very specific arenas and slowly but surely work myself out of a job and then encourage that team, fan that flame in them, to just enhance the movement, if you will, and then go and do it again in a different industry or a slightly different industry.

Which one of those businesses? It's probably like your favorite kid or whatever, but, you know, not a fair question, but which one of them was your. Maybe one of the. That you're most proud of?

Well, I, you know, oh my goodness, that's so difficult, isn't it? That that could be another four hour conversation. But I will say one of the companies that I was very passionate about was the very first one that I started and back fresh out of college. And I was asking the million dollar question that everyone that probably asked at one season or another in their life, what do I want to do in this season of my life and how do I make money doing it? And so right out of college, I started to answer that question and I said, what are the three things that I love? Number one, I love the game of basketball because I played college basketball. And at that time I was pursuing an NBA career, which never panned out in the NBA, but played professional ball for seven years. And so I love the game of basketball. I love encouraging and inspiring people. And then thirdly, I love the next generation. There's something about, you know, understanding and doing a deeper dive and learning, posturing yourself to learn with the next generation, only to kind of let your ceiling become their floor. And so I said, why not combine My love for these three things. And I started my own motivational basketball program business for ages 5 through 14. And I just loved it, Ron, because it was like grassroots. We did everything from going into elementary schools with life changing principles that I would talk on to doing private coaching. We ran basketball camps and clinics. And that was really the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey. And there was something about the grassroots of that with my older brother who was on board. And we started working one child at a time and grew the company to working with over 400 kids a year for about 10 years. And that was just, I look back at that time, I was like, what an amazing, amazing time in my life.

Yeah. Wow, that sounds fun. So we're recording this at the end of January. It'll come out sometime in February here. But we obviously had some horrible news within the basketball world a few days ago when we all learned of, of Kobe Bryant and I believe what eight other people on the, on the helicopter, including his 13 year old daughter who, you know, tragically lost her life. So I guess you, you probably getting a lot of, a lot of questions. What, what are your, what are your, what's your message to folks as it relates to that?

Yeah, I so appreciate that. And I have been getting quite a bit, I, you know, playing basketball. Kobe knew of him, you know, he's 41, I'm 44, so three year difference. But we're both from the greater Philadelphia area, which is just a haven for basketball. And so I've been getting a lot of questions, a lot of comments from the professional basketball people all the way to just everyday person that can relate to when something tragic happens or something sudden and there's a loss, a loss of a loved one, a loss of a friend, a loss of a pop icon or just even a loss of a dream that never came to fruition. And so my encouragement, Ron, and I'll encourage your audience and your community as well, is there's so much in life that's out of our control. So much a curveball that gets thrown in the midst of our day that we didn't have anything to do with. We get a call of a loved one that's sick or something in the workplace that a client or prosp just with some drama there and all of a sudden we find ourselves in this place. I didn't really have much to do with this, so it seems out of our control. But there's one thing that is in our control that I'm really trying to encourage people as it relates to the whole Kobe Bryant situation, and I think it touches a deep place in all humanity, is one thing we can control, is turn to the people in your sphere of influence. In my sphere of influence. Turn to them and be present with them and tell them how much you care, regardless of the differences, tell them how much you love them. Because as a friend just reminded me a couple days ago that the years. Yeah, I mean, it's just one of those things. Sometimes the years go quickly, but the days can be long. But in the midst of that, there's an opportunity to be very intentional, very consistent with letting people know how much you care about, how much you appreciate, how much you value and how much you love them. And that is within our control. And that doesn't. I know people wrong people, and people say certain things that are hurtful and everything. We can't control those type of things. But what we can control is our own heart, our own attitude, and our own perspective. And I think that's when we can begin to have a level of awareness and embrace who we are. We become the true change agents within this world and certainly within our businesses and organizations that the world is waiting for us to be.

Yeah, that's beautiful. Beautiful. All right, so let's jump into, into kind of the topic of the day here, Rob. Inside out leadership is a. Is a philosophy that, that you touch on in, in your book called All In. Talk about what. What is that? What is inside out leadership? And why is it important for leaders to understand?

Yeah, I think it's a glaring problem. I think most leaders, especially United States of America, and I'll say throughout the entire world, have observed there's a disengagement problem. People are disconnected. They're disengaged from what they do. There was a poll that came out years ago in Deloitte University Press that said nearly 90%. I think it's like 88%. Nearly 90% of the average worker or team member is disengaged in what they do, meaning a lack of meaningful purpose and passion infused into what they do day in and day out, kind of the grind of what they do. But, Ron, what's even more alarming than that is nearly 80% are the leaders of those workers or team members. Now, some would say, how can that be? Leaders have even greater responsibility for the people in which they're leading. Greater sphere of influence, more responsibility, more expectations. The bottom line is there's a disconnect with engagement. And so there's, you know, many leaders know that there's an existing problem matter of fact, over $500 billion in the United States alone is thrown at that problem to try to fix it. But here's what I found a research to back it up. Many organizations are putting a lot of money into what I call outside techniques and strategies, trying to get inside to the heart and the mind of the worker. They're not all bad stuff. It's not all bad stuff. There's incentive plans and there's, there a lot of motivational tactics, but they have more short term gain than long term vibrancy and sustainability. What I have said was I believe there's a better way. How can we actually start first getting into the, you know, the mind and the heart of the worker, you know, of what inspires them or compels them to action as opposed to putting some, you know, the kind of the carrot and the stick kind of a thing. But what can we do to inspire, to spark creativity, engagement, only to have it work itself out. And I personally believe, and I'm under the strong conviction it starts with every leader first. If they take ownership of some things in their own personal professional life first, it can't help but work itself out with those in their sphere of influence.

Yeah, I always love the quote, you know, I found the problem in his eye. Right, right, right. Yeah.

And again it's, I'm not saying there's not a place for, for, for motivation. I'll give you an example. This is something I think everyone can, can understand. Motivational tactics and strategies. There's a place for them. For instance, there's a motivation to stay within the speed limit. If you don't stay within the speed limit, you could very well get pulled over and get a ticket and points on your license. So there's a motivational thing put in place so that what do most people do anyway? They stay within the speed limit so that they don't get pulled over, get a ticket, spend X amount of dollars on that ticket and get points on their license, which means their insurance can skyrocket. But there's other things like what can we do? There's a need for that. But what can we do to truly get in the heart? I'm sure you could take a look at your own life. I could take a look at my own life. And maybe a person that's inspired you throughout the years, maybe it's something that they said, a series of things that they said. Maybe they took the time. Maybe it's a teacher back in elementary school, middle school, or a really good boss or a leader in your Life at one time or another and maybe the time that they took, maybe the approach, the perspective they had, maybe the encouragement they brought to you and all of a sudden it just fans something deep on the inside of you that compelled you to action. You didn't do something because you should have, or you, you know, oh, I guess I better or this will happen to me. But you did it because in the depth of your being, a part of you came more alive and you were actually compelled out of that place to go and to act. And so I love an inside out. Leadership is all about reaching that place deep on the inside that actually compels you to take action.

And obviously trust is a big part of that. So talk a little bit about why you believe trust is one of, if not the most important foundation for team morale, team relationships, team harmony. Talk about trust.

Yeah, I'll talk about trust more from this angle. To begin, I think that there's so much lack of trust we can find it in professional relationships, human to human connections and personal life as well. And people. When there's not trust, when there's not an assured reliance on one another, three things happen. You start to number one, you can bottle things up and then it's bound to like the little pop off. At some point maybe another person may do more passive aggressive things. But I think more times than not the average person, the average team member and the average leader for that case for that matter, it seeps out. It's there and it begins to seep out. And so if there's not a genuine connection, if there's not trust, and you probably heard it put like this in your lifetime and your leadership and everything you do. But, but trust is like you put every time you do what you say, you're depositing something in that relationship, you're depositing 25 cents on the dollar. But every time you don't do what you say, 50 cents is taken out of that relationship. And I find that so many people, in part at least so many people are not following through with what they say. And maybe they mean well, maybe they do it because in that moment I'm just going to say to kind of people, please or do, because I think that that's what they want to hear and only to find out the actions don't back up what they say. And now there's damaged trust and now there's a disconnect. And so relationships, I have found personal front and in the professional front are depleted because people aren't following through, doing what they said they would do. And so I think that there's an opportunity in that, Ron. The opportunity is to be. To provide, you know, every opportunity, every relationship we have, look at our team members, look at those that we work day in and day out with. For instance, there's an opportunity to reconnect, to deepen the connection. And that means spending intentional time with and learning how to be present. I think at the end of the day that so many team members, even though they might even get together on occasion with other team members, their leader or their colleagues or their partners, are they jumping right into problem solving mode? Are they jumping right into what needs to be fixed? Or are they taking the necessary time to truly get to know one another as human beings? What interests each other? Now, I'm sure you've realized this. It's like if you find a passionary out in a colleague, a team member, a family member, a neighbor, they could talk all day long about that passionary. And so are we spending the intentional, consistent time really connecting human to human, even before working professional to working professional? And when we do that now, there's at least an opportunity to be present with each other and to build and foster trust from the inside out.

Yeah. You know, one of the huge aspects of this, of the lean movement is we've translated it to respect for people. But one of my business partners grew up in Japan and speak Japanese fluently. And John Miller, and he explained it's actually a poor translation and it's really a better translation of what. What these original lean pioneers were talking about is respect for humanity or the humanness of people. Right. And I think that goes right in line with what you're talking about there. The humanity, the humanness of. Of people.

That's. That's correct. And I think. I think good organizations, they have a professional track of development for their people, for their team members. There's no doubt about it. They're maybe in work in progress, but they at least have committed to a professional development track. But I've found great, dare I say, exceptional organizations, very healthy and vibrant, sustainable ones. They believe so much in what you just shared and what we've been talking about so much to where they've committed to working on personal development tracks for their people.

Yeah.

That now connect into the professional development tracks. And that man, if you can marry the two, if you can tie in both of those with a pretty seamless flow, there's no telling what could begin to happen in the heart of the worker. I'll tell you one thing that comes to mind Is that particular individual, that worker now feels valued not just by the work that they do, the performance that they have or aspire to have, but as a human being, they feel valued. If there's one thing that every human being in the planet desires, they want to feel valued. They want to feel appreciated.

Yeah. You know, I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Amy Edmondson and Fearless Organization talking about, you know, psychological safety. I'd be curious to get your take on the relationship between. Between what she would call the Fearless organization or a psychologically safe organization and trust. Like, what kind of harmony is going on there?

Yeah, I mean, trust and safety. I think when there is the healthy relationship where trust, you know, no relationship's perfect, as we know. But when there's a healthy trust relationship of two people that are willing participants to better connect and be present with each other, you know, human before the working professional, I think what begins to happen is there's a safety net that begins to be built. And if there's one thing too, that I think the average person, Worker really longs for, they want to feel safe. I mean, Ron, there's a big buzzword in our culture right now, in business culture, which is vulnerability. People. I mean, people are tweeting it out. People have articles, books written on vulnerability. You know, it's not easy for the average person to be vulnerable, but yet so many amazing things happen within the workplace and in life when people can step out and be real. When trust is built, it literally says to people and says to a team, this is a safe place. And when there's a safe place now, it's like, listen, I'm a real person, you're a real person. Okay, we can take off the trying to be perfect. And I find that there's a big difference between excellence and perfection. Perfection at the end of the day, and I'll circle back to safety and vulnerability. There's no such thing as perfection. You know, I think one thing Kobe Bryant really did well in the legacy he has left behind is was he was about excellence. And excellence is doing the very best job you can with what you've been given. And so at the end of the day is if we create a safe environment, a place where there's an opportunity, these intentional human to human connections, where trust is built, it's fostered. Now there's a safety net. Now we get to hear people's stories. We let them in on our personal story, we start sharing more professional stories. Now all of a sudden, we create a Level at least of vulnerability. It doesn't mean that we have to share so many war stories. And it turns in every meeting has to turn full fledged counseling sessions or therapy sessions. But what it does mean is, are we committed each. Each time we gather on a one to one basis or even team gathering, Are we committed to let people into our lives in maybe a slightly different way than we had the previous meeting? And if every person's committed to that. You talking about a safety net? You talking about now a place where I got your back, you got mine, we're climbing the mountain together. I think that's the place where, I mean, the sky truly is the limit for trust. And all, you know, all that can happen with built and foster trust.

Yeah. Another huge buzzword that's been around for many, many years is the whole learning organization, which is also at the heart of a lean mindset. But in order to have a learning organization, you must have trust and you must have an organization not scared to not necessarily succeed. But as long as you're learning, you're moving forward, right?

That's right.

Yeah. So they're all connected. It's like this big spider web, Right?

Don't you love it, though? And there is something said, too. I love what you're bringing up there. That learner. There's something said. When we continue to posture ourselves with remaining a student, putting on that learner's hat, we never take it off. You know, that does speak to humility. You talk about safety and vulnerability and being in the trenches together and, and growing and fostering, developing trust. When we keep on the learner's hat that we have so much to learn, it doesn't even matter. Every time in this conversation, I put on my learner's hat. I have a lot to learn from you. I have a lot to learn from your audience. I have a lot to learn from every person that I meet, regardless of who they are, their background, their level of education, how many businesses they've been a part of. Maybe it's their first business. And when you truly have a heart to learn, that now is that's a pure place to live out of and lead out of. That's a place that speaks to genuine humility. And I'm sure you're familiar with the book Good to Great by Jim Collins. It's one of my faves of all time. And Collins speaks very heavily, like who's on the bus and what separates the great leaders from the good ones. And he speaks all of his research and not for profit businesses so much comes down in points to humility, those that operate and function out of a place of genuine humility. That's where a lot of magic happens and that's where the most productivity comes out of and empowerment. And so I love that you're bringing that out.

So trust, learning, organization, humility, all of these are all nice words. But we all will live in the real world and we know that eventually there's going to be something's going to go wrong. We're going to have a crisis, we're going to a recession, or we're going to have conflict. Talk about what happens when we have conflict. When a team has conflict, what can they do and how can they, how can they actually leverage it for the better?

Yeah. So you know, people, when they hear that word conflict, some people start to like cringe, they start to shudder. They're like, oh no. You know, there's so much comes along with that in our culture and our business culture of like, I don't want to deal with conflict, I don't want to deal with that. I just want to get into my zone. I just want to do what I'm hired to do and do it really well. I don't want any drama. I don't want to. But I'm here to say, Ron, I believe that conflict is a great thing, but I'll say healthy conflict is a much better thing. Conflict in conflict, there's always an opportunity and people can employ my inside out leadership philosophy and spend time connecting with people and really be present with them and learn how to lead from the inside out in the midst of that. But to your point, as you asked the question about conflict, life happens because human beings are human beings and no one's perfect. So something's bound to happen. So if we haven't begin to change the narrative, into conflict is a bad thing, into conflict is a true opportunity for growth that would never be there otherwise. Now we've changed the narrative on and that alone, that awareness, now we have a different opportunity in the midst of that to be of greater good in the midst of conflict. And so I think, and not just think, I know with experience and I know with statistical data and research to back this up, that we can in fact make conflict and turn it into a superhero kind of a thing. Right. Superpower, if you will. And three things I think are integrated very practically into turning conflict into a superpower. One is it's self assertion. So many people don't know how to handle conflict. So it just kind of comes out and they can get ugly really quick. And so people can oftentimes in the midst of that use accusatory words. They can, yeah, it's almost like, yeah, you did this and you said this. I think the beginning of any healthy conflict and conflict resolution begins with good self assertion. What things can we do to enter into good healthy dialogue with a team member, a colleague, a partner? And some of the things is just like I call, you know, starting self assertion starts with concrete data instead of like just bringing people into the whirlwind of what happened. What neutral kind of data can we use? And it might sound something like this. Hey, hey Ron. Do you know Last week at 12 noon when we met, do you remember we discussed this, this area, this topic and that's like neutral data where you and I would both say, yeah, I remember that. And, and, and then you as the initiator of that, you know, time of conflict resolution, now you're trying to find words that you know are non accusatory words. So you start with a little bit of that concrete data, neutral ground, ground, even playing field, if you will. And then you could take people into, you know, when this, when this transpired, the conversation, you know, I felt, you know, I could be wrong, but I felt, when this, when this was said, I felt like you were getting a little heated, you know, did I misread you in that or not? And now you're using words and language like I feel, I think so I could be wrong, but I just want to check in. There are non accusatory words and phrases that help minimize defenses. And so that all fits within the first aspect of just good self assertion. Second, and I think healthy conflict and conflict resolution, we have to put on our good active listening ears. And if there's something I think the average person just is not good at, an average leader and team member, it's active listening. I think. Why? Because we're always think about what we're gonna say to chime in to prove people wrong. And this happens in every sphere of society and business is no different. And so if we can begin to reflect back what the person is saying, not trying to chime in right away to counter them, but actually say, hey Ron, as you're saying this, this is what I'm hearing, Is this correct? And just kind of repeat after them on occasion, just so you're tracking, just so they feel like you're with them, just so you feel like you're present, you're in the moment together. And then last, and so both people can do that now and now there's self assertion and there's proper active listening and active listening skills applied. Wow. Now every good healthy conflict and conflict resolution should always lead to collaboration. Now it's like, hey, the next time, if this ever rears its head again, we hope not now by going through this, but if it ever does again, what's our course of action? What's our ground rules for the game, so to speak. So now you're being a good steward of that relationship, a good steward of the trust built and fostered in the relationship and the conversation that you guys have shared in together. So the next time something like that may rear its head, you know, kind of how to enter into that to where you can be of greater good together and ultimately all benefiting because of it.

I love it. I love it. So, last question or topic that I want to touch on. There's many other ones we could probably talk for four hours here about. We'd be respectful of your time and our listeners time. When we grow in trust, you know, ultimately with a business or whether it's nonprofit or for profit or anything like that, we do need to get things done. We need to. We need to make things happen. We need to. We need to grow the organization, if you will. So how do we, how do we tie those things together? How does growing in trust help us get things done?

Yeah, it sure does. I. We need focus. You know, people, I get asked this question all the time in different shapes or forms. They're like, rob, I hear you're telling me all about trust. I believe you. I'm with you. I'm actually starting to integrate in very practical ways, ways that I can connect with team members and take them out to lunch and get to know them as human beings. And trust is built and fostered and all this is great. But the end of the day, I can't take, you know, a majority or vast majority of my day and spend time getting to know people better. I got things to do, I got work. So that we could, yes, we could be a good steward of what we. What's been entrusted in our care ultimately with the work that's before us. And so I get that. I think it requires a level of focus. And so in that we need to have boundaries, you know, Ron, boundaries are a really good thing. Boundaries, you know, in relationships are really, really good thing. Like, there's reasons why my wife and I bought a new home about four and a half years ago. And there's property, territory, boundary markers. So we know the land that we Own right and human to human relationships and work relationships that the balance of like getting to know each other and building and fostering trust because that's kind of that vibrancy side and then the sustainability with the processes and the systems and it requires both. What's that look like? I think that we need to be led by, I always say this, led by the heart because that's what's going to make the heart beat. Everything we've been talking about, that's what makes the heartbeat strong. Right? Human beings are the one that they manage the processes and the systems, they enhance it. But we need to carry through those processes and systems. And so I think we need to have boundaries. We need to have boundary markers in our life. And a lot of boundaries hinge on what are our priorities, A lot of boundary markers in our life as a person and working professional. What are the priorities based on our responsibility, our expectation, maybe the company goals, personal goals. What are the priorities in this season of your life and work? And now what we do is we know our priorities inside and out. We create an opportunity to put boundary markers in our life and around us and in and through those relationships that we just talked about, about building and fostering trust, enhancing those human to human connections and human to workplace relationships. Now it's an invitation to get to, for people to get to know what those boundaries are based on the things that really matter to us and what we get paid to do. So it's not like a black and white like, oh man, I just got to shut my door on this person now. I got to be about my work. They are integr. But we've got to know what our priorities are and we've got to clearly communicate those priorities and those boundary markers to people in our sphere of influence and also encourage them to do the same thing. So now there's a level of awareness of who we are as people as well as the work that we have to do individually and collectively so that now we can hold each other accountable to building and fostering those relationships, but also building and fostering those processes and those systems and those tasks that we're also called to do at the same time. So they really go hand in hand for sure.

I mean, I guess it's really, it's not one or the other, it's all of it together and combined. Right. I mean we're trusting and respecting and all the way through, whether you're practicing lean or agile or just, you know, playing basketball, whatever.

Right.

I mean, these human relationships, it's so tempting.

I love what you're bringing out, Ron, because it's so tempting for people to look at things so black and white. Well, I just need to like, shut this off and I just need to put this hat on. But I'm here to say the most freeing place to live and to lead out of is to be yourself, regardless of who you're around and what you're doing all the time. And when you're free to be yourself and you're free to encourage other people and lead other people to be themselves too. Keeping in mind everything we've been talking about on this show in this episode now, I think this is the place where team members can thrive together. This is the place with that vulnerability, that inspiration, the practical tools that are necessary to now, I got your back, you got mine, and we're going to climb the mountain together. It's one that requires trust being built and fostered from the inside out and a level of focus that requires boundaries like never before. But when you marry the two of both people and process, the healthiest organizations on the planet are the ones that have both and infuse both. And it really does speak to, and I know this speaks to your lean audience. It speaks to vibrancy and long term sustainability. And I think that's what we're all after.

Beautiful. Rob, what's the best way for folks to connect with you and to get more information on your book? All In?

Yeah, I think two great resources. One is just my personal website and that's robholman.com and that's Rob with two Bs. Robholman.com and the second, more book specific. With all in, you could just go to getallinbook.com or just hop on Amazon and put in there. All in by Rob Holman.

Yeah. And again it's R O B B H O L m a n robholman.com getallinbook.com and then you're on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn, all this good stuff. And what we'll do is we'll put, we'll link all those up in the show notes. This is going to be episode, let's see, 305. So GembaPodcast.com go to episode 305 and we'll link to all Rob's social media outlets and hope folks can connect with you that way as well.

Hey, thanks so much. And you and I both know, Ron, in today's day and age social media, like you said, Rob, you're on Instagram and all these touches. It's almost like you kind of have to be nowadays. Right. But it's also an opportunity for you and I and other people in leadership space and just that inspirational, practical encouragement for business leaders and owners and. And everything. It's a great opportunity to further our messages, for sure.

Absolutely. All right, well, Rob, thanks again for taking the time. Keep up the great work. And, yeah, maybe we'll connect down the road again sometimes to chat about. I know there was some other things that we didn't get to today as far as honor and the culture of honor and lots of other things that we could tap into. So maybe that'll be a future show.

Sounds great to me, man. Listen, thanks for doing what you're doing, and I look forward to the next time we talk.

All right, take care. Thanks for listening to the Gemba Academy podcast. Now we invite you to take a no strings attached, fully functional test drive of Gemba, gain immediate access to more than a ousand Lean and Six Sigma learning resources, all free of charge@gembacademy.com.