GA 314 | The 4Cs of Trust with Jamie Flinchbaugh

Lots of people do care. Lots of people assume other people see the care or know that they care, but fundamentally it's not enough. And we see so many breakdowns where that demonstration of care isn't there. And fundamentally, especially in today's world, perhaps it's easier to assume it's not if it's not demonstrated.

Today, I'm excited to welcome Jamie Flinchbaugh to the show. Now, over the last few weeks, we've had some exciting happenings here at Gemba Academy, namely we moved into a new facility where we have a pretty sweet video recording studio and some audio recording rooms. And I've done a few podcasts where I've interviewed folks over Skype here in the new audio room. But we have the opportunity to do face to face interviews as well. And Jamie Flinchpaw was in town. And so I said, hey, why don't you come over to the studio and we'll do a podcast interview face to face. And that's exactly what happened. So it was, it was fantastic to have Jamie here in the studio and we had a great time chatting about the topic of trust. And Jamie has done quite a bit of research over the last few months and he's written some pretty good articles and literature and made some videos even on this topic. And he's actually distilled it down into what he calls the four Cs of trust. And so what we've done is talk a little bit about why trust is so important as it relates to lean transformations and really business in general and life in general, if you will. But then we walk through those, those four Cs and what they are and, and then how we can get better if we have any, any gaps in any of those characteristics of trust. So show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 314. We're going to link to quite a few articles and Jamie's book, Hitchhiker Sky Delene, which is a fantastic. One of the original Lean books that I would say really helped me. I would say Jamie was even a little bit ahead of some mainstream leam, if you will. He was really, really getting after it many, many, many years ago. So, Gemba Podcast.com look for episode three 14. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Jimmy Flinchpaw, welcome back to the show. How's it going?

It's going great. Very glad to be here in the Gamba Academy Studios.

Yeah. So for everybody, list something we haven't really announced, but I'LL guess I go ahead and announce it on the podcast here. We have moved into a new building, Gemba Academy. Built a new building here in Keller, Texas, and got a pretty sweet little audio studio and some little space over here to do videos and all the rest of it. So we are actually using our little, what you call this fancy audio room kind of deal.

Two person studio.

Yeah. So this is the first time we've used it. So, Jamie, thank you for helping us break it in.

Oh, glad to. The new office looks great. It's purpose built for what you do as a company and creating content. So, yeah, really excited to see your products coming out of here.

Thank you. Yeah, we're excited too. So, Jamie, you were. I'm gonna. We'll put this in the show notes. This is episode. Yeah, 314. So, Jamie, you are back in. Golly. I don't even what year this was. Episode 16 you were on and then episode 83. And yeah, now we're. Now we're at 3:14. So I've had a few sleeps since episode 16, I guess.

Yeah, I guess so. So that's. I was glad to be there in the, in the beginning and it's been a little too long, but glad to be here now.

Yeah. Yeah. And so you.

And.

And so I was. Karen Ross. Do you know Karen?

Yes.

So Karen was on yesterday or a week or so ago and it was like her fifth time. And I was looking up, I was like, I wonder if anybody's been on more than five and guess who has. Mr. Graben.

Mark Graben is, you know, he's got his own 300 some podcast and then.

He'S got to go beyond everybody else's on everyone else. Yeah, Mark is the most prolific and consistent. Well, we're pretty consistent with this podcast, but he's been blogging and all that for so long.

You know, he is one of the originals. And yeah, he's been very consistent. He really focuses on the discipline of creating content in multiple forms and he's been at it for quite a while.

Well, speaking of content, you and Mark do a little podcast here, I think. Well, what episode are you on now?

I think we're gonna record episode 14 this Sunday. So Lean Whiskey came about as an idea because anytime we were in the same city, we would find a whiskey bar and we'd be introducing each other to different whiskeys and we'd talk shop and we'd sell. The whole Lean Coffee thing was always, you get five minutes to talk about a topic and then three minutes to Extend it. And very aggressive and caffeine infused, if you will. And we thought, what's the opposite of that? Well, Lean Whiskey is very casual and we take our time and we get off topic and it's all good. It's basically what Mark and I would do when we would get together, but now in podcast form.

That's great. That's great. So good. So good. All right, well, Jamie, as you know, we kind of like to begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote. So you do have one.

Yeah, I do. And I probably can guess what my last ones were because almost all my quotes end up about learning. It's just, you know, not just about lean, but it's a personal mantra of mine is always be learning. And so maybe a different learning quote for me is from Albert Einstein. And the quote is, it's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. And I really like that because I think it's so easy to jump, so easy to assume. And I think, to me, problem solving and learning aren't ingredients of each other. They're synonyms of one another. And the whole idea of solving a problem is that you have to gain the knowledge to earn the solution. And I think that's really what Albert Einstein was referring to.

You know, something I've started to think about, and sometimes I even vocalize it, is I tell people, your problem right now is you're trying to solve too many problems. Stop trying to solve so many problems and just start learning more. Learn more about your situation. And then as you learn more about your situation, the problems are going to go away. Right. Because you're going to come up with the correct countermeasure. But people put so much pressure on themselves to be problem solvers. You know, I was like, stop it. Just start learning more. Run experiments, see what you learn. And the problems are going to go away, you know, is what I find.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. As I said, I think they're synonyms of one another. And to me, easiest way for me to say it is that if you already know the answer, then just do it. You don't need an A3. Like, if your car says empty, then you put it. You put fuel in the tank. You don't need problem solving for that. If you don't know what to do, then by definition, you have learning to do. Right. And so it's that I always say, close the knowledge gap before you close the performance gap.

Yeah.

And that's why Problem solving is all about learning.

Yeah. So, Jamie, when I think of you, I think of Jamie Flinchpaw. I think of. We were joking earlier about you being an OG here on the podcast, one of the original gangsters, if you will. But I think it's very, very safe to say, and I know you wouldn't want to refer to yourself this way, but I definitely think of you as one of the original lean OGs out there. I mean, you were talking about stuff long, long before maybe some of the larger Lean Institutes of the world were talking about these things. And so tell us a little bit about your background. I want to start there, how you first came to learn about continuous improvement, and then maybe just bring us the present day, what you're up to.

Yeah. So maybe without going into too much detail, my very first engagement was really at Harley Davidson. I was a materials manager. This is almost 30 years ago. And it's actually a chapter I wrote in Practicing Lean, which is a collaboration with Mark Crabin. And essentially we had already implemented a very comprehensive pull system, was an extremely vertically integrated, integrated plant, own stamping presses, own zinc coating rooms and chrome rooms and everything. And yet we would produce 30% bad product, not out the door, but off the end of the line. And the number one reason was parts weren't available when they were needed, which, of course, all came back to me. Now, I inherited this system, but I actually took two weeks off from firefighting. I put my radio aside, I grabbed a clipboard and a pen and tied my shoes, and I went to Gemba. I just observed my material handlers and all the reasons that our system failed. And every single time I saw failure. It wasn't a bad system. The math wasn't poorly done. The cards didn't have the wrong information. It was about bad behaviors and not evil behaviors. Just, you saw the material handler coming and you're like, well, let me get all the cards together for them, even if I haven't consumed the product, and pull them for him, because he's here, and it's like trying to get stuff ready for the mailman. And so let me pull some extra cards for him while he goes. And, well, geez, I'm already set up to run these racks on the chrome room. Why don't I run one extra rack or the parts and accessories division, saying, well, I just need to ship out three units. I'll just go grab them from the line. So all good intention, but all bad behaviors. And so we focused on fixing those bad behaviors, and we probably made 15% of a dent in that. That's a hard thing to solve, but it made a 60% improvement in the problem. And so that was my real initiation. And then I became part of helping build and implement the Chrysler operating system, which was both a success and failure. Became the most benchmark company in the world, nearly bankrupt to 13 billion cash in the bank. Helped create that, helped deploy it. But ultimately it didn't sustain beyond the leaders that left in fairly rapid succession after the Daimler acquisition. And so that really became a lesson because the behaviors weren't ingrained. We had the script, but you couldn't go off script otherwise there was nothing to. Nothing to vamp with, if you would.

Yeah.

And then I went to DT Energy first, sort of large utility to go on a Lean journey. They're still on it, doing great stuff, continue to evolve their practice over the last 20 years. Didn't spend a lot of time there, but I think made a solid contribution to their journey. And then in 2001, opened the Lean Learning center with Andy Carlino and Denny Pauley and spent 15 years doing that. Worked with over 300 companies from around the world, from potato chips to computer chips and a whole bunch of things around that, and learned a lot and hopefully helped a bunch of companies.

Yeah, very good. So talk a lot. Also, you've written one of my favorite Lean books, and I don't mean to just keep pumping you up as Jamie's so awesome, but talk about hitchhiker.

Yeah, so Andy and I wrote the Hitchhiker's Guide to Lean. I always forget the dates, But I think 12 years ago now, a lot of it, you know, people ask what have I Learned since those 12 years? And in a lot of cases, it's that chapters one and two are even more important than I thought they were then. Chapter one is about culture and principles and behaviors, and chapter two is about leadership. So those were chapters one and two for a reason, but they're even more important. And I've honestly been surprised at how that book is sustained. One of the reasons I haven't written another book is that people are still using that one. And what do you want to share about Lean? Well, a lot of it's in the book, and certainly I've learned stuff from there since then. But there's a lot of how I think about Lean is really built into that book that I did with Andy.

So another topic that, I mean, really what I want to kind of explore here for the rest of the podcast, Jamie, is you're always thinking, you're always Writing, you're always learning, but you've, you've really seemed to at least recently honed in on this, on the, in the important topic of trust and as it pertains to, you know, in our case and the listeners here, a lean transformation, I mean, maybe even successful ventures. I mean, you know, I think it would extend beyond just Lean. First question I have on that is why, why have you, why are you so passionate about the trust topic?

Yeah, so it's really two things. One, just because, similar to that Albert Einstein quote, I wanted to go deeper into a topic that I hadn't gone into, that maybe I had glossed over and used in superficial ways. And I just felt I wanted to pick something to go deeper into just for the intellectual stimulus and rigor of going deep into a problem. But why that is that we've seen many times false starts with Lean. We've seen Lean fail to catch hold, we've seen Lean win and then fade away. And when you look at both the successful implementations and the poor ones, trust does seem to have a correlating theme. And I really don't find many people that disagree with that. But no one really talked about why. No one really went beyond the fact just saying trust is important. And I felt, well, geez, if it is, how important is it? And what, how do you connect it? What do you do about it? I felt it, if it was so important, it deserved a slightly deeper look.

Yeah. So talk a little bit about what you've done then. I know you've done some research, done some studies, some surveys and whatnot. So before we get into what we're calling the four C's of trust, talk a little bit about your approach to get the information to create this story.

Yeah, and so when you kind of look, pick up and look at, for research and other stuff on trust, a lot of it is really very either interpersonal, meaning how is there trust between a husband and wife or business partners, or just very two people oriented, or it's about society as a whole and there's some great organizations out there studying trust in society. But that wasn't what we were talking about either. We're talking about within an organization tied to a topic, in this case transformation using Lean. And so that type of application of trust really couldn't find a lot on. So I started just trying to deconstruct my own experiences. As I said, I've worked with an awful lot of companies, hundreds of companies at some level, usually a very strategic level, working with leaders, driving it. And so I'm not spending a lot of time on 5s and standard work as much as the leadership of a cultural change. So I've had plenty of experiences where I've intersected with that topic. So I started with my own sort of deconstruction of my experiences, looking for the patterns in all of the things where I saw the breakdowns. Then I wanted to validate that. That's where sort of a large population sample came into play of taking what became the four Cs, which is my deconstruction testing. A, how much lean correlated to lean success, and B, how valid are those four Cs that I came up with? How valid was that deconstruction? So looking at, we looked at this research to really get input from a wide population of people that have something to say on it and ask them to Both rank those four Cs that we'll get to as well as talk about why number one was important and what you've done about it or what you've seen in the organization do about it. And so we tried to get beyond just the ranking as well with some of the key questions to understand what was behind it.

Okay, so what do you suggest? Should we just kind of walk through the four Cs and kind of talk about them individually or what do you think?

Yeah, I think that's fair. I think we can, I'll say, start at the top, if you will.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I always worry about, and there's ways around this is that was the way in which I sequenced them, influencing the survey takers. And the best way to test for that is to say, produce two different videos that describe them in different sequences and then see if there's a correlation based on what's first, second, and third. We didn't do that. So is it possible that I influenced the outcome? Certainly possible, but based on reading the responses, I don't think it was very material. But the first we talked about was the demonstration of care. So that became both of those words were important. So the care is what the result is, but the demonstration became the important word. Lots of people do care. Lots of people assume other people see the care or know that they care, but fundamentally it's not enough. And we see so many breakdowns where that demonstration of care isn't there. And fundamentally, especially in today's world, perhaps it's easier to assume it's not if.

It'S not demonstrated demonstration of care. Okay, what's number two?

So number two is communication. And of course it's hard to open up any book or course or whatever on any leadership topic and not hear communication. So it might be a little obvious. But again, what's the subcontext of that? Well, it is the context, it's the why behind decisions, actions, et cetera. Communication of why behind things is what allows that trust to be there. So what can happen often, just to be very specific about this, is in a lean organization, you're asking people for ideas. It's not a suggestion box. But either way, you're creating an environment and culture where you say you espouse the idea of, your ideas matter. And then all of a sudden somebody submits an idea or shares an idea or suggests something and you reject that idea. Well, clearly that's because you never meant what you said when you said, you want my ideas. That's the natural response. If you communicate why, the person still might not like it, but they at least trust that there's a reason behind it. And it wasn't that you actually didn't care. It was that it was too expensive or we've already tried that, or it's risky or whatever. The reason is that communication of why is important. I think it's particularly true when you recognize that when you're off script, when you're, I espouse these values, I espouse these behaviors, but I'm operating differently in that moment. Communicating the why allows people to see it as a deviation or an exception rather than a betrayal of those espoused values and behaviors.

Well, yeah, even when we think about just some of the basics of lean, when, like, like you mentioned earlier, like, like the basic, like 5s. You know, it's very common for an organization to get all excited. They watch a Gimbal Academy video or read a book, go to a conference, whatever. They learn this thing about 5s and they come back and everybody's going to do 5s, but they don't ever stop back to figure out, first of all, before they even communicate why, they don't even necessarily know why they are doing it. You know, that's the first flaw perhaps exactly, is they don't even know why. But once if they do know why, then they very often don't communicate that. Right. Whereas if we did explain, hey, there's this thing called 5s and yes, we just learned about it, but we realize that we've had this many accidents or this many injuries or we're losing this much in productivity or whatever it might be, and then we have a very specific purpose for why we want to learn and practice this thing called 5s, then I think you have a much better chance of success.

Yeah. And how that shows up in 5s as an example is the sustainability. When you're clear about the why and you can communicate why you're asking everybody to participate, why you're doing it, why it's important to have a single standard. Well, if you have a 10 person team and Joe decides not to follow the standard and not put anything back and not follow the standards that we agreed upon, well then clearly you ask the team to put all this effort in and then you're not going to take a moment to hold Joe accountable, to follow the standard as a leader. So you didn't really. The team's response to the leader in their heads is you didn't really mean it. You said this was important. We put all this effort in. Joe doesn't follow the standard, you don't hold him accountable. You didn't really mean what you said. And that's when trust breaks down. Even though it wasn't really that we didn't mean it, it's that we didn't communicate, didn't follow through, didn't hold someone accountable.

What's the, what are some ways. And maybe this is better asked at the end, but I'm curious maybe as we're hitting each of these, what are some ways that we can. Is it possible to over communicate?

I think it's possible to, I don't think it's over communicate. I think it's. I think we lack specificity, I think we lack focus, I think we lack planning when we communicate. Most of the best leaders I've worked with, you will hear the same 15 or 30 or 90 second spiel from them over and over because they've thought about what they want to communicate in the hallway. They don't just plan their formal communications. Their speechwriter writes their notes for the town hall, they plan their informal communications. They think about when I see someone in the hall, how do I want to phrase this in a way that sends a message? Very deliberate, very deliberate, very focused, very purposeful. From choosing a language to tone, to focus, all of those things. So I don't think you can over communicate, but I do think you can swamp people with irrelevant or unfocused communication. And then the message is lost in a sea of noise.

Yeah, I like it. Can't hear the signal for the noise, Right?

Exactly.

Okay, what's number three?

So number three is competence. And it's interesting, in the research this did get the lowest number of votes, at least as a number one vote, at least number of votes for being a top choice, but it still received an awful lot of votes. And that was really the, the validation that all four of these Cs mattered. And essentially the competence is the belief, whether demonstrated eventually or implied in advance, that someone has the competence to do what they're saying they're going to do. Now this could be big and broad, like, I'm going to lead you on a lean journey. Okay, well, do I trust that you're going to get us there or are you full of, you know, waffling and wavering and abandonment of ideas and lack of follow through? Are you competent as a leader to get us there? Or on the other side it's, oh, we're going to turn this improvement over to the team that's closest to the work. Do I trust as a leader in the competence of the team to go do the improvements? And if I don't, then what happens is I either interject myself an awful lot or don't follow through at the end because I didn't really trust in their competence. Competence has implications on say, both sides of the equation, vertically. Competence of the leader to get us where they say we're going to go, competence of the teams, of the employees to engage in a lean environment that essentially empowers them to a greater degree.

So what if we're lacking competence and everybody is in some way?

Everybody is. And that's where I think the two best ingredients, and this showed up in the research as well in many different words. So you had to be careful to read all the words to know what the patterns meant. But one was transparency, being transparent about your gaps. I always try to be pretty transparent about what my gaps are. There's many. But then also the deliberate plan to work on them. Do I have a coach? Is there a training plan? Is it self guided learning? But is there a plan to develop competence in specific ways in which it leads to what I've committed to? So whether it's helping people understand the technical aspects of their job so they can do a better job improving it and writing standard work, or it's leadership development and getting a coach so that I as a leader am getting better and closing my gaps. I think one of the most, I don't say under reported, but less obvious signals of say, Toyota's culture of learning is that they often retire a CEO at an age where they're still young enough to mentor and coach the next CEO. And so at Toyota, everybody has a coach and it's their boss. But, well, who's the CEO's coach? Well, they sort of systematically build that in, even at that level. And so again, is there a plan to close the gaps of our competence? And so we may not always deliver when we don't have the competence, but the trust isn't eroded if there's a plan in place.

Well, it's not. Doesn't start with C. So it may, it won't work in this model. But even like having the humility, right, to admit that, hey, I don't have this, I need to call Jamie or I need help with this or that, and seeking that help when you need it, that can be really hard for some people.

Absolutely. And the humility is both required for transparency and even bother investing time into a plan. And so there's executives I work with that I coach, that. They value it, but then they kind of share that they've told people that they have a coach and people were surprised and oh, geez, what's wrong with him? He has a coach. Certain organizations, coaching has become a synonym for the last step HR takes around someone's job performance before they're fired. And so there's many different. Coaching doesn't have to be the only word or only form of improving our competence. But again, if you go look at the best in the world, the best golfer, the best soccer player, the best basketball player, A, they all have coaches, and the best hire even more coaches to help them close their competence gaps.

Exactly. Yeah. Just read the, the book Drive by Carl Anders Erickson on deliberate practice, talking about Michael Jordan, all the rest of them, they're the best, but they didn't do it alone.

They didn't do it alone. And they understood their own gaps and they worked on them very deliberate way.

Okay, so far we've had demonstration of care, then we've had communication of why, and then we just talked about competence. What's the fourth one?

So the fourth is consistency. And this was interesting. It got the second most number of number one votes. And essentially the message behind that was if you do all of those things once in a while, it's really not going to matter whether you rank the first 3, 1, 2 or 3, 2, 3 or 1 whatever order. If you only do them some of the time, you're still going to, you're still going to erode trust. And so that's why a lot of people, second most number of people selected consistency as number one. And so consistency, this is why we have standard work, is why we have leader standard Work. It's why we have build visibility of problems into our work. There's a lot of different ingredients to providing that consistency. I remember one of my very first classes that I taught in lean when we started the company years ago and I had a factory manager asking, well, how do I get my first shift operator to do things the same way as my second shift operator? And my response was, well, does your first shift supervisor do things the same way as your second shift supervisor? And do you as a factory manager do things the same way one Monday as you do the next Monday? That consistency means that I know what I'm going to get from that person. And what's interesting, I think one of the responses which was less of a advice and more of a just sort of acknowledgement around the content, was someone acknowledging in their effort to be helpful, they over committed and they continue to over commit. And when they over commit, it means they don't deliver. They might commit to 10 things, but they deliver on seven of them. Well, that's not very consistent. Great intentions, the right mindset behind it. But ultimately probably erodes trust because, hey, you deliver seven times out of ten, I don't trust you with this really important thing because I don't know if it's going to fall into the three or the seven. And so there's a lot of ingredients to consistency, but fundamentally, if you're not delivering those ingredients on a consistent basis, then people don't know what to trust.

At lunch we were, as we record this here in early March, we're dealing with the coronavirus. And by the time this one comes out, maybe we will be, or maybe we won't be. I don't know, maybe it'll be all over or it'll be even worse, who knows? But one of the things we talked about, Jamie, was that part of the issue with this particular virus, or whatever it might is, is the, the lack of the uncertainty around it. Right. And, and so it seems like consistency, lack of consistency leads to uncertainty. And certainty is one of those things that we've, one of the, I would say, value as a human race more than, more than most things.

Right? No, yeah, we, because, because certainly, you know, again, our blame brain plays tricks on us and a small worry or concern or doubt will grow without any fuel at all. It can grow in dark shadows like a mushroom. And so those doubts and those uncertainties can grow without us doing anything to stimulate their growth. And so ultimately we have to put them out. So communication is one of the things that does put them out. So certainly in times like that, excess communication is generally considered one of the most important rules of crisis management. And competence is another. Right. Can people deal with it? Can they not? Can the government deal with it? Can the local hospital deal with it? Are they competent to deal with that? We've certainly seen as it's spread around the world, it goes to certain countries, and we immediately think, boy, it's going to get bad there because of a perceived lack of competence of the health care of a certain country. And then ultimately it comes down to that consistency. Right? Is it. Do you get lucky once in a while or are you able to deal with it time and time again? Again, it's a good lean organization. To me, one of the big tests is when something completely unpredictable happens and how do they respond? Not that they already have a plan for it. Right. But can they focus on the problem, get aligned, work the problem and get through it in a deliberate way? And that's, to me, that's consistency because nobody can predict all the things they might have to face in the next five to 10 years.

Right. There's no FMEA that can cover everything, right?

No, no, not at all.

Yeah. Wow. So, Jamie, I know you've written quite a bit on this and you produce some videos, talk a little bit about those and we're going to be sure to link to everything in our show notes for this episode, but tell the folks about what other resources are out there.

Yeah, So I actually started with a video that sort of preceded the research, or at least the survey research, and was actually my first effort at home studio work. I don't have the depth of experience you guys had and was really unfortunate as I did two camera angles and one of them was out of focus. And I had one of these moments where you can either delay for another two weeks until you get around to it again, or you can go with what you have and put yourself out there and not focus on perfection, just focus on pdca. So I put the video out there. It's shot from the side where somebody said it'd be much better if it was shot looking at the camera.

Thanks to Captain Obvious.

Yeah, I agree. I just, you know, I didn't want to seek perfection. I was going to learn my way through it. So there's a video explaining the four Cs. I have some other follow on videos responding to some questions. We essentially just published an article that really sort of summarizes the research. So it describes the four Cs and also shares the some of the conclusions from the Research from the survey that came out from that. And so that's sort of a long form article, both published in Lean Mag and also now on my blog at Jay Flinch. So that's available and a couple people have asked me if I'll do a webinar on it, which I'll probably do. Not through my own channel because I don't do that, but I'll probably do a webinar on it or two.

Well, hey, let me ask you, why don't you do a webinar with Gemba Academy? There you go. Ask you on a podcast. You got to do it now.

We can do that. It's locked and loaded. And I'll probably take some other responses to. I'll get comments back for sure. I'll get conversations. I'll continue to think about the problem a little deeper. I'm probably not going to write a book on trust. I don't think that's how far I want to go with this particular problem. But I'll definitely start producing some more nugget sized content along this theme.

Yeah. Awesome, awesome. You mentioned your blog and we'll link to that as well. This is going to be episode 314, so GembaPodcast.com go to episode 314. We'll link to everything. Jamie, what's the other ways folks can connect with you?

Yeah, so the easiest is on my website, jayflinch.com youm can also find me on LinkedIn which is a pretty easy way to track me down. So those are generally the, the two best ways to find me.

Got it, got it. All right, we'll link to those. Jamie, thanks for coming in and helping us christen the studios here. Yeah, appreciate it.

This is great. You guys have been at this a while and continue to grow and do your own PDCA on this.

Yeah, we're learning a lot. You know, started in a spare bedroom from my house, you know, so there.

Are a lot of iterations beyond me. But. But no, it's a pleasure to be here and participate and enjoy recording in the studio.

Thank you. All right, take care, Jamie.

Take care. Thanks.

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