GA 331 | Leading and Learning at Toyota with Katie Anderson

I told a story about Mr. Yoshino making a mistake during his orientation. He would have been in his early 20s and pouring the paint into the wrong containers. And again, the bosses apologized. They weren't angry at him for making the mistake, but they apologized because they had not set the conditions for success in his workplace.

Today, I'm excited to welcome Katie Anderson back to the show. Regular listeners of the podcast have heard Katie on the show several times. I think it was the last AME conference that we had. Katie and I did a podcast and we were talking about the book. She was right in the middle of writing and, well, as timing has it, the book has now been released by the time this episode is coming out. And Katie's book is called Learning to Leading to Learn. So what we do on the podcast today is we really just talk about many of the principles that really underlie the things that Katie is trying to share. Mr. Yoshino is kind of the subject of the book. He's. As Katie will explain during the podcast, Mr. Yoshino was John Shook's first boss when John Shook, you know, of lean.org, and lean enterprise Institute with the Nummi Factory and whatnot. And so Mr. Shook and Mr. Yoshido work very closely together. But Katie has met Mr. Yoshino and just basically tapped into his brain and just learned a lot about different things, such as about how to lead others and really how to reflect. There's a. There's a bunch of lessons to be learned from Hansai, or Reflection. In fact, Katie talks about how she nearly named the book around. Around this whole Hansai topic, but ultimately ended going with Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. We also talk about some. Some pretty deep stuff. We talk about happiness and joy and what does that mean? What does happiness mean and what does joy mean? And we. We were even calling on our friend Richard Sheridan, Inc. And we know Richard writes about that, but it's been many, many years since Katie and I have read that book, and we couldn't remember exactly what Richard was saying. So everyone needs to go back, and Katie and myself included, and go back and read what the relationship between joy and happiness. But I think it's something that we should all think about, especially in these times and this chaotic year that we've had here in 2020. Now, Katie is always kind enough to leave some nice goodies for Gemba Academy listeners. And so I want to give that URL out right now just to make sure that you go and you capture those. And so the website for that is going to be kbjanderson.com gembaacademy so again, kbjanderson.com Gemba Academy. So she's got some goodies and some giveaways there for Gemba Academy listeners. So definitely check that out. And if you want to learn more about the book, we're going to link to it in the show notes. But you can also go to Learning to lead, leading to learn.com and obviously the books on Amazon and all the rest of it. So Katie is one of the most fantastic, lean thinkers I know. So I highly, highly suggest you pick this book up and give it a go and probably buy a couple copies and give them away. All right, again, all the show notes for this episode are going to be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 331. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Katie, welcome back to the show. How are you?

I'm great, Ron. It's always good to talk with you.

Yeah, yeah. So we're, we're, we're normally, I feel like the last few episodes we've done, we've done in person at ame, leaning against that little white table with our elbows looking at each other, but now we're doing it through webcam. So it's, it's not the same, but it's, it's better than doing no camera at all.

I'm trying to replicate this experience here.

Right, right, right, right. That's great. That's great. All right. Well, how you been?

Well, I've, it's been, it's been a wild ride this year.

Yeah.

But I'm overall good. You know, I think I've been really anchoring on a saying that my parents had when I was growing up. And like, you can, I've been saying this to my kids a lot, too. It's like you can choose to have a good time or you can choose to have a bad time. And it's all about how we, how we take our reaction to experiences. And, you know, like when my dad was dying, my parents also had a saying of this is not what we want, but it's what we've got. And so I've been really challenging myself through different challenges that we've had over the last year about how do I react and how do I create positivity out of challenging times. And so anchoring on that's really allowed me to make each and every day a great day, even through hard times.

Yeah, you know, I'm a, we've talked about it before. I'm a huge fan of stoicism and, you know, Marcus Aurelius and these guys, you know, and, you know, you, you can't control what happens, but you can control your reaction to what happens. Right. And, and how you perceive it and how you, how you, how you handle yourself. So, yeah, I think that's a, that's a beautiful way. So, Katie, you know, we do like to kind of begin all of our episodes with a quote. So I don't know. I. We didn't talk about this before the, the pre talk here, but did you have one that you wanted to work in?

Sure. Well, I was thinking about all the different topics we could talk about today. One that's really on my mind is the book that by the time this podcast is released, my book will be published about Mr. Yoshino stories. Learning to lead, Leading to learn. It's a quote that we start out, or I start the book out with saying the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning. And that's a quote from Isao yo, who is the subject of my book. And I think it's really profound that we often think that Toyota is. There's some secret sauce and they've done all these amazing things, which they have. But at the essence, its foundation is about learning and how do we make people before they make cars. So how do we really think about people and learning? It's not about tools. And so we explore that a lot in the book.

Yeah, I mean, and many of us say it, but it's. It really is about. It's so hard though, right, to really wrap your mind around. I think it's also, it requires humility, you know, it requires the more you know about lean and the longer you do it. And you're big consultant now. You're a big author. And this and that. There's always this tendency, there's trap to think that I know, I know the answer. Right. And maybe sometimes if it's a technical thing, you might, you might know. But in the end, when we really face big challenges, we don't, we don't normally know. So that's why we have to enter into it with that, that scientific thinking mind of I don't know. But I'm willing to run an experiment to see what I learn. Right. And whatever I learn is going to be good, whether it worked out or didn't work out. But it's so easy to say that and so very hard to actually practice it.

Oh, for sure. Building on what you said, this concept of failure and making mistakes and learning from it is a real core part of what we talk about in terms of Mr. Yoshino's experiences and how there isn't any real failure except if you didn't learn from the failure. And how do we also accept that we're gonna fall down and how do we keep getting back up? Just like the little Daruma doll I gave you.

Exactly. Exactly. Hey. So back at the last time we talked, I think it was episode 297. I think that was the last AME that we were at. I think it was in November. So I think if I remember right, you were going to call the book Practicing Hansai, or at least that was an idea being thrown around. Was that right?

It was. You were right. So back in November, I was in the thick of completing the first draft, complete draft of the manuscript, and wasn't sure what it was going to call. But the concept of Hansei, of reflection, was sort of the meta story of this book about Mr. Yoshino and me working together over several years with intentional reflection and me helping him learn and as he says, relearn more about his life. And so that's one big theme. And you know, I had some question about whether or not we threw in a Japanese word in the title or not. And there was another. I would structured some of the chapters around the concepts of learning to lead and leading to learn. And as this winter, so January, February was sitting with it with my editor and a few others thinking about how do we really describe what this book is about? Because the reflection is sort of the meta story, but really what this book is about, it's about learning and leading and that cycle of learning of leading and the chain of learning that happens. And it's through the process of reflection and storytelling that these experiences come through. But really, if you're wanting to know what the book is about, it's about leadership and it's about learning. We pivoted. And so it's, you know, it's also important. I've had to really challenge myself through this book writing journey to not be too tied to perfection and be too tied to what an original con, what I thought originally and let it evolve like the same way. When I set out for writing this book, I thought it would be structured. I originally had this idea in my head that it would be structured around different leadership principles or humility or asking questions and then telling some stories around it or that supported those concepts. And as I started writing, I realized I was feeling really stuck because Stories and experiences don't necessarily fit neatly under just one, one theme. And many of Yoshino's really rich learnings came through some periods of time over multiple years. And I realized that the story that needed to be told was his story of learning and leading. And in this way, we could really capture some key moments in Toyota's history and tell it chronologically as someone was going through a learning journey, opposed to breaking it down and just in reflection. So. So I had to let go of that and did some pdca, and I really am happy with how it's come out.

Nice, nice. So I know you've been anchoring a lot of your discussion on the book on three parts or three roles of a leader. Walk us through those three.

Sure. And I'll give a little context to this. So the very first time I met Mr. Yoshino was actually in 2014 at the Lean Coaching Summit, before I moved to Japan. We'd actually just found out that my husband had the opportunity for us to relocate to Tokyo for his job. And Mr. Yoshino happened to be on stage with John Shook at the conference, talking about their role as manager and subordinate. So Mr. Yoshino was John Shook's boss during the NEWMI training program in the early mid-1980s, when John Shook was the first non Japanese employee of Toyota. Anyway, they're up on the stage and Mr. Yoshino made a comment that struck me as quite profound. And I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but since this time, I've literally used it whenever I'm talking about leadership. He said my role as a manager was to give John or whomever was reporting him a mission or a target, and then to support him while he achieved that target. And as I was developing John, I was aware I was developing myself as well. And I've sat with that quote and it really. I've distilled it down to sort of three really important roles that leaders have. One is set the direction, two is provide support, and three is develop yourself. And if you can do all three of these, then we're really going to be a culture of learning, of achieving, of developing people. And then that includes starting with developing yourself as well. And that humility, as you talked about.

Earlier, let's walk through each of those a little bit, maybe a little bit deeper. So when we talk about setting a direction or even maybe calling it a challenge, something like that, what does that look like? What are we talking about? It's Like a long term challenge or a short term challenge or both?

I think it could be both. So if you're the senior most person in the company, what is this company? What do we need to do, what direction we need to go, what's our overall target? It also could be the small thing, like what's the target we need to be achieving in the next three months, six months, or providing a challenge to people of assigning like we don't know how to do something. For example, John Shook writes about in managing to learn, he needed to figure out how to do the translation of these documents. So that was a challenge, figure out how we're going to do the translation of this document. And there's probably some targets in there too. So often than not though, we don't really know what the true target is or what direction we need to be going. So leaders need to provide that clarity at least, even if it's not a precise target. You know, Mr. Yoshino talks about that it's better to have a directional target rather than wait, you know, not moving forward at all and trying to exact precision. But how should we be orienting our energy in our focus and what way really, truly are we rowing? The analogy, we always see the picture of the team rowing together. Ron can see me, I'm doing in my office, but it's surprising. So I do a lot of work with teams and individuals and talk about the problem equation. So target minus actual equals the gap. So that's the problem to be solved. And more often than not, people don't know what the target is. And so we really need to focus our ability as leaders at all levels to really creating some clarity in what direction do we need to go, what gap do we close?

So I know you're a big kata geek like I am, and what do you make of. So when we're talking about setting the direction or challenge like within the scientific thinking kind of realm, we all think of that as sort of the longer term one. And then we often talk about, you know, we assess and deeply understand the current condition and then we set that shorter term target condition, you know, that might be in a couple weeks or something like that. That gets us a little closer to the challenge. What does Mr. Yoshino make of that take on how Toyota might operate? Right. What do you think?

Well, first and foremost, I think he wouldn't have known anything about what quote unquote Toyota kata is because that is a western construct that has been put forward on a way of thinking. And so I think Sometime one of the challenges at Toyota, this is so ingrained in how they think. And I know Mike Rother has often said the same thing. He tried to go into Toyota and by articulating the starter kata, it was his way of trying to make visible the invisible thinking process that happens at Toyota. So Mr. Yoshino probably couldn't articulate it as well as Mike has or how you had here. But what is important is having, he calls it a long term vision or a dream or a goal or a North Star. So where do you need to go in the big picture? And then what are the targets that you need to the step by step targets that you need to create, to move in that direction? So if you think about it from a framework, it's the same thing. But he would not be able to describe it as a concrete process in the same way.

Well, it's almost like set a challenge, set a direction, and then PDCA your way there.

Right, Exactly. In its simplest terms. And the starter caught is there is to help us who aren't as trained in that habit of creating that habit.

For sure. For sure. Okay, so number two was provide support. Maybe we're talking about kind of developing people, conditions for success, those sort of things. Talk a little bit more about that.

Yeah, so I've sort of bundled the provide support is both developing people. So how do you create people's capability and confidence to move towards challenges, to problem solve, to experiment, to learn, to reflect. And how do you create the conditions that support people's success for learning? In one of our previous podcasts that I think was recorded when you and I were together again at the previous AME conference in San Diego, I told a story about Mr. Yoshino making a mistake during his orientation. He would have been in his early 20s and pouring the paint and how into the wrong containers. And again, the bosses apologized. They weren't angry at him for making the mistake, but they apologized because they had not set the conditions for success in his workplace. But I also think of providing support in so many different ways. And so many of the stories that we tell about Mr. Yoshino's life in the book are about how he learned to lead and then subsequently helped teach other people. One story stands out to me that this is again when he was sort of learning how to lead and to learn. He was probably about 10 years into his career at Toyota and he was asked to create a report and he'd already spent a few years working in supporting the Motomachi plant and he learned the value of going to Gemba, going to sea, he knew that was a really core important thing to do. But he was now in the Tokyo office and he felt pressed for time. And though he knew he should go to Gemba, he decided, no, I'm just going to go to the library and get some data. And he threw his report together. And the big boss said to him, wait, wait. He was going to go talk to the big boss in the big boss's direct reports. And Mr. Yoshino calls the guy the big boss. He started to read his A3, and the big quote, unquote, big boss said, wait, did you go to Gemba? Did you go talk to these companies that were in the report? And he said, no, sir, I was pressed for time. I just went to the library. And the boss said, timeout, you can't do your report. You must go to Gemba and come back to me in a week. So Mr. Yoshino was very embarrassed because he knew Hegemba. And then he came back a week later, having gone to talk to some of these companies, and really the information in his report didn't change. And the boss, he later learned that the boss knew that it was unlikely that the information would have changed. But what was important to him, the boss was teaching reinforcing for Mr. Yoshino the importance of going to Gemba to go to sea, to go to get actual facts, not just relying on data from the library. So that's sort of providing the support. He didn't care so much about the outcome of the report. I mean, he did, but it was more important for him to provide the support and develop Mr. Yoshino's way of thinking. And so I think that that was really a special story.

That's awesome. That's awesome. So then you talked about the third one was developing yourself as the manager, Right? So talk about that, because what does that mean? You know, is it part on job and job development? Is it external development, both?

Well, you know, to me, I think it goes back to accepting that we always are needing to learn and develop and that we're not perfect and that as we also grow in our careers and are working in different ways and with different people and different scopes, the things that we need to know about how we both our knowledge, but also our behaviors and how we set direction and how we provide that support, we need to continue to advance our own skills in that. And so, like, Mr. Yoshino actually didn't remember saying this quote when I first met with him back in 2015, I actually asked him what did he mean by, as I was developing John, I was aware I was developing myself as well. And so he elaborated on that. I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something about how he recognized that he was now working with someone in a different culture, and that how John had a different perspective and experience than the Japanese direct reports that he'd always worked with, and that he needed to think about different ways, how to support John's learning. And as he's gone up in his career and scope, he realized, too, it wasn't just country culture, but also people have different perspectives and different experiences, and how you behave or how you act with that person has to shift based on what their needs are. And so some things may be easier for us, and some things may be harder, but if our role is to provide that support, we may need to adjust our own skills and abilities.

Yeah. Yeah. So talk a little bit about what it was like working with Mr. Shtuck, who Mr. Shook, who, like you mentioned, wrote the foreword to the book. Sounds like you guys had some fun digging up some archives, going through the archives.

Yeah, it was a bright moment in March, you know, when our world was going into some dark moments.

Yeah.

You know, a long time ago, John Schuch had said that he would write the forward to the book, which was a real honor. And so we were working together on his forward. And then Mr. Yoshino does not have any photographs. It's like, we need some photos. And I had some that John Shook had shared at different conferences or had given to Mr. Yoshino. But John went in and dug around his records and went through boxes and came out with some really fun, you know, old scan photos from the 1980s. And then he and Mr. Yoshino were just telling stories about those times. And I know they had some fun conversations separately without me, but it was so fun to see them re. Engage on sort of, you know, thinking back fondly on good times. And there's some great. There can be some great photos in the book of Shook and Yoshino playing banjo and guitar together. And there are fun stories there, too.

I remember seeing this old picture of Mr. Ono and he had, like, holding this big cat. Have you ever seen that picture?

I have not seen it.

Apparently he had a cat. And this. He loved this cat. And he was, like, holding this huge, ugly cat or whatever. I'm like, that's a picture you don't see every day. Mr. Ono Carrying a cat.

I think sometimes we have to humanize, too. And People. I think that that's such an important part of the story too, that this is a real human about one person's learning journey, but it also is representative of the broader Toyota culture. So you get some perspective on just Mr. Yoshino uniquely, but also around how this culture developed. But it's really fun to have the small inside stories as well.

Hey, so something else that I think we were emailing about a little bit. You were talking about Mr. Toyoda's. There was a speech given kind of at the Toyota financial year end and they were talking a little bit about the topic of happiness. What's that all about?

So it really struck me. So this is the Akio Toyota gave a speech, I believe it was in May, around May time. And John Shook and Jim Womack actually wrote a really nice reflection piece in I think Planet Lean on this on the article. But something they didn't touch on is at the very end of the speech, Mr. Toyoda is reflecting on what he has learned over the last few years and what this concept of respect for people, or really what in the Japanese the word is translated, should be translated as respect for humanity means. And so he says that Toyota's mission now is to mass produce happiness. And it's really about people and people's happiness and their appreciation for the things that give us joy. And that word happiness really leapt out at me because I've been spending time with a company called Ina Foods in Japan. I first learned of them when I was living in Japan because of a book that was written by their chairman, Mr. Tsukakoshi called Tree Ring Management. I wrote about it on my blog. I can put some links to this as well and been a delight. I've gotten to know the company and I've been able to take people on my Japan study trips to Ena Foods and speak with the chairman. So Mr. Toyoda Akiya Toyota considers Mr. Tsukakoshi his sensei and his newest book. And I'll put this up too, there I have a photo of it on the front of Mr. Tsukakoshi's new book. There is a blurb from Mr. Toyota saying, this is my textbook. It's a weird translation, but I think it's like almost like this is my bible, this is my leadership textbook. And the philosophy that Mr. Tsukakoshi has for his company is that happiness is our purpose. And it goes back to the. And so I thought so going linking back to that concept of happiness, I was like, where did Mr. Toyota really orient on this concept of happiness? As Toyota's mission. And I wouldn't be surprised if it comes from spending time with Mr. Tsukakoshi and his philosophy around putting people first and about happiness and joy at work, which is also a big theme for many things around us here now as well. So I think that link is really important and it gets back to that third part, develop yourself. So even Mr. Akio Toyoda is going out and seeking learning opportunities from others and continuing to develop his self and advancing his own thinking. And now he's set that direction for his company, Mass Produce Happiness.

I can't help but think some smart aleck out there is listening right now. Goes, why does he want to mass produce anything? One piece flows better, but maybe happiness, you should mass produce it.

Right?

I know. I'm just kidding.

That might not be a good translation, but I think it's on a global scale. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

For sure. Yeah. So what do you. You mentioned Joy because, you know, we both know Mr. Sheridan.

Right.

And so you know, Joy, Inc. Is one of the best books I think, ever written that all continuous improvement practitioners should be reading. In addition to yours now, Katie, of course, but what do you make between that relationship between happiness and joy?

That's a good. That's a deep question.

Ron Richard's listening, by the way, right now.

Rich has been awesome as well. We had a chance to spend time together in November at the AME conference, and he's been a big supporter of me on my writing journey. And his words give me joy in the final stages of writing my book. As we're recording this, I haven't actually. You're asking a tough question. I think joy and happiness are so, so linked, but slightly different concepts as well. I feel like joy is that something that comes out of us. I'm almost like I want to draw a picture of like something erupting from us. It's that unbridled joy. That's something that sort of is released energy into the world and happiness, in some ways I see it almost more as a calm, like a contentment that something. It just is settled. So joy is almost. I'm seeing something. Energy moving out and happiness is just like a settling into a good state. But that's the image that comes to me now. How about yourself?

It's interesting, I guess mine, I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer. I'm sure there's some philosophy king out there who could tell us all about it. Right? But no, I agree with that. To me, though, Joy for me is more. It's more primal. I feel. I sense joy as more of like a. Almost like a state of being. Right. That you could be. You could be a joyful person. And just because you're a joyful person doesn't necessarily mean you're always happy. It's almost like I. I almost link joy with things like contentment. Right. Like being content, you know, in a way with. Not content in the fact that you're satisfied. But it's almost like you could lose your mind. Like, oh, I want a bigger house or I want to a better car, or I want a more job, a bigger job or something like that. Like, there's no joy in that. Right. But I almost feel like when you find yourself, you've worked, you work hard and you can. You almost like you're in. You're engaged in the process. Right. Maybe that's another way of looking at it. When we talk about, like the football guys, you know, Nick Saban and all these guys talk about the process, you know, fall in love with the process. And it's almost like when you fall in love with the process, you have joy, you know, and happiness is. Is a feeling that you have along the way. I don't know, it's kind of a.

I'm watching you as you talk. And again, I think it's the same way that joy has something about energy and movement and happiness is almost like a result of it. And you could be joyful but not happy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll have to have Rich on and he can tell us because I remember, I do remember I should have the book in my office that he actually does talk about enjoying the difference between happiness and joy. But I have to go back and read that chapter now because now I'm like, oh, what's Rich got to say?

Rich, I promise we have read the book.

Yeah. It's been a while, though. I need to go reread it. Yeah, no, Fantastic.

Well, hey, Rich was at that very first conference. This is. I remember that I met Mr. Yoshino at. So it's all like coalesced together.

Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. So, well, you know, the book's been out now, you know, as people are listening to this. What do you want to wrap up with Katie? Like, what are your final words of wisdom, final thoughts that you want people to kind of take away?

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's actually kind of exciting to record this and look into the future.

Yeah.

Because I'm in the final, like, editing pre release process as we record and It'll be out in the world. You all final words. So the book is Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. Lessons from Toyota leader Isao Yoshino on a lifetime of continuous learning. But I want to challenge you to go back to that concept of Hansei and in reflection. So this is a story about or a book looking about backwards about what we can learn from the past. But my challenge and something I'm really excited to be working on more, even this fall, around the time the book's coming out, is how do we take that knowledge, that reflection from the past and create for the future? So how do we take the principles, the lessons of failure, the lessons from success, the insights from a lifetime of learning, and then take it forward for each of our own lives about how we're going to move forward into this new world that we are creating our way through. What do we want to take from the past and what do we want to create for the future? I challenge us with that right now about how are you reflecting and then how are you creating for the future as well? And then how can this book help you do that?

I love it. That's a perfect way to end.

And if people want to get more information about the book, it is available on Amazon in paperback and in Kindle. And you can go to Learning to Lead, LeadingToLearn.com or my own website, KBjAnderson.com and I know you'll link to that all as well. And I always have special things for our Gemba Academy listeners. So if you go to my website, kbjanderson.com and then Gembaacademy, I'll have special things and resources for listeners as well.

Oh, thank you for that. That's awesome. All right, well, Katie, you take care of yourself. Congratulations on nearly crossing the finish line. You're basically there, but just a little bit more, I guess, excited. I'm proud of you for how hard you've work worked on this. You know, we've, we've talked about it on several podcasts. So it's, it's, it's exciting to see people persevere and work through such a big, big, big project. So well done.

I'll be able to fill in the other eye of my giant Daruma.

Oh, that's awesome.

A few weeks. So I'll on, on. I'll be able to put that up when we have our Gemba Academy.

There you go. There you go. Beautiful. Well, that should be the picture you send us. And we'll put that in a little artwork thing for this episode. Good. All right. Well yeah, you already gave your website and we'll link to everything in the show notes. So this one is going to be this is episode 331. So go to gembapodcast.com, look for episode 331. We'll link to Katie's website, link to the book, all that good stuff. So Katie, thank you again. You take care and yeah, congratulations again.

Thanks so much Ron. It's always a pleasure.

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