GA 351 | The Biggest Truth and Lie in Life with Lili Boyanova

I was surprised by how much people are really willing to help and collaborate with one another in this field. So really, this continuous improvement space has been the one that I see people really uniting the most.

Hello, everyone. So for those that celebrate the holiday, I'd like to wish everyone a very merry Christmas. I know it's Christmas Eve here when this episode is being released. We actually recorded this episode towards the end of November. So I didn't actually mention Christmas to our guest today because I didn't click until I realized which episode this was and when it was going to be released. But yeah, so I had a really fun conversation with Lily Bojanova today. So Lily is from England and she has a marketing background and she's actually new to Lean, been practicing for a few years. And so we had a really fun conversation talking about all the things she's learning. She's been connecting herself with some really fantastic Lean thinkers out there, including Karen Ross, Katie Anderson, and a few other folks. And so she's learning all about scientific thinking and Toyota Kata, and so spent some time talking about her journey, how things have been going and what she's learning along the way. Also had some. We had some interesting conversation about leadership and what she believes, you know, the characteristics of a good leader are. So that was interesting. And then like we've been doing on these episodes where we have folks who've been practicing for a few years, I allowed Lily to kind of turn the tables and she asked me a couple questions and I was sort of prepared for, hey, Ron, what's your favorite Lean tool or whatever it might be? And then Lily goes and drops a few bombs on me. She asked me, I'll go ahead and tell you the questions and you'll have to listen to hear how I answered. But she asked me what the biggest truth in life is and also what the biggest lie in life is. And I was like, whoa, okay, this is not. She didn't have a value stream mapping question. So some pretty deep stuff. And so I answered the questions from a personal perspective, but then also tied it back to Talene. So, yeah, that was really fun conversation to have with Lily, and I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts on those two questions. So show notes for this episode, which will include links to everything Lily and I talk about, can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 351. Again, gembapodcast.com, look for episode 351. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Lily, welcome to the Show. How are you?

Hi, Ron. Thank you for having me. I'm really well, thank you.

Good, good.

Really great here in England.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I was going to ask you, where in England are you calling in from?

So I live near Winchester, which is south of London, in between London and the sea.

Got it, got it. Yeah. So I've been to England many, many, many times over. My back in my corporate career, obviously, spent some time in London, like everybody, I think, but then even got to go to, I believe it's the south of. Of England, Weymouth. Have you been there?

That. Yes. That's about an hour from me. It's wonderful. It's really nice.

Yeah. I spent about a week there, and. Oh, man, that was really interesting. Just seeing the difference, you know, between a town like that and, like, lo.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I've been living in England for 12 years, and I still keep uncovering such a diversity of countryside and seafront and, you know, the London and the Bristol bus. So it has a lot of different areas.

Yeah, exactly. Where are you originally from, Lily?

I was born in Bulgaria, East Europe.

Yeah.

And When I was 19, in 2000, I decided to come to England just for summer, for a summer camp to visit some family friends in London, and just really fell in love, not with the weather, but with just the opportunities. And I met wonderful people who showed me that their country as their own. And I decided to stay. And it's been a journey since. Wow.

Wonderful, wonderful. Well, and I understand we have a mutual friend and Ms. Karen Ross, is that right?

Absolutely. Yes.

Yes. Karen is my. My best podcast recruiter out there. You know, she talks to someone. I think maybe in her first conversation, she tells them that she'd come on to the Gemba Academy podcast, which I appreciate because they're always super fun interviews.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah, she's wonderful. She shapes a big part of my lean journey and, to be honest, my life. And I mentioned to her, and she was thrilled that I'm joining as well.

Yeah. Good, good, good. All right. Well, Lily, I know you've listened to the show, so as you know, we sort of like to begin each episode with our guests sharing a quote. So do you have one?

I do. I have one. One of my favorite quotes comes from Simon Sinek, and he says, life is beau not because of the things we do or see. Life is beautiful because of the people we meet.

I love that.

So it's been really impactful listening to Simon Sinning in the last few years and just talking to people and networking and really finding so much joy in learning. So if I may share, at the end of last year, I was looking for some novelty in my contact and I decided to go on a little exploration and a networking journey, which is how I met Karen on LinkedIn. And I've met 86 people since. Just talking to them a little bit like you do, although I'm not. I'm not recording a bit, but just having conversations and asking people about their experiences.

Very good, very good, Lily. All right, well, tell us about yourself, Lily. Tell us about your background, maybe how you got involved in continuous improvement, and then definitely tell us what you're up to these days.

Sure, sure. Thank you for asking. So we already mentioned Karen Ross and my networking experience at the end of last year when I was just searching on LinkedIn for suitable contacts and people that I aspire to meet and talk to. And I just. So Karen's Loving Kindness foundation and I dropped her a message and she was so open to meet. And we actually met online between Christmas and New Year's 27th of December, and we had a wonderful conversation and, you know, as they say, the rest is history. I just fell in love with Karen's vision for the world, creating a world of love before money and all of the Lean knowledge she had. I started to talk to her on a regular basis, I think. A month later I joined Katie Anderson and Karen's K2C2 course. And that was kind of my more detailed introduction to the background of Lean and where it all started. And then I looked at the history of my career and my life and I just noticed that there was always that pattern of me looking for continuous improvement. I started my career initially working for big corporations and IT and finance companies and looking at developing their marketing and sales strategies. So even though my focus hasn't been named as Lean, it was always create a marketing campaign or launch a sales program and then look for ways of making it better for the end customer. Looking at social channels and digital performance and looking at, on a monthly, weekly, daily basis of ways to enhance and improve, improve it. So the principle was always there and I guess as a personal, in my personal life, I was looking at running a marathon and I was looking always at ways of, you know, improving my speed and some of those kind of processes that leads to that a little bit like kata your outcome and your process metric. So the more I started to learn this 2020, the more I discovered that I had some skills and experiences in continuous improve. I just never knew that's what they would be Named As. And then I. Yeah, I think the rest is history. I think a few months after I met Karen, I just called her and I said, how can I contribute to this vision of creating a world of love before money? And she said, well, why don't you get involved in the Loving Kindness Project Foundation? So I run a half marathon on the coast in south of England, and I was asking everybody to raise. No, not. Not fundraising money, but raise kindness for me so they would do a kind act. And. And today what I'm up to is I work for a marketing agency, working at their operational setup and at the setup of our clients, of how we service them in the best possible way. And I also work for the human workplace. I'm working on developing leadership programs of making people and organizations lead from a place of love and decrease fear.

Nice, nice. Well, so you've mentioned, obviously, Karen and Katie. You know, it seems to be they've been a pretty positive influence on your LEAN journey. So let's just talk. I mean, I know you're new to lean, obviously, but tell me, like, where you're at right now with LEAN and, like, what have you learned so far? You know, I know you have two of the greatest teachers there and Katie and Karen, but what have you learned and maybe what have you validated? Maybe some of the things you've been doing in the past that were actually lean and you didn't know it.

Sure, sure. I think I really love the foundation of LEAN as a methodology of really looking at the people. So it's kind of people centered excellence rather than just operational excellence, looking at how you can get people motivated. And I just qualified a couple of weeks ago from the KATA school in England. So I trained also with Tilo Schwartz from Europe. And that methodology of solving problem in a scientific way and having all the visual maps, all the visual posted around my home right now, but also around the organizations that we work with. I think that's really, really important, and I think that can really change the way organizations work in the future. So Kata as a way of looking at solving problems for the future, it's really breaking the assumptions that we have as people looking at how we behave and our patterns and making sure that we are adapting in the future based on the learnings that we take in daily. So that learning to lead and learning to. Or leading to learn. That Katie's new book, that is really, for me, the foundational principles of LEAN and how people should look at their lives and also at their work. Mm.

You know, what's really Interesting about the opportunity that you have right now. And for anyone that's listening right now, that's, that's relatively new to the whole lean movement is, you know, I would say if you talk to myself or Katie or Karen 15 years ago, you know, the advice that you might have heard might have been different. It might have been, oh my gosh, you must, you know, have you seen this? Do you have this book by Mike Rother, Toyota Kata by Mike Rother called Learning to See, you know, as Mike's first big book, you know, that came onto the scene and was all about value stream mapping, which is a tool, you know. And so, you know, back then, many of us were very, and I don't mean, I don't say this to be like that was bad or that we were bad people because of this, but we were very tool oriented back then and we weren't necessarily thinking as clearly as we're, we're trying to all think now, you know, and this is what Mike, you know, later learned when they went back and researched, you know, all these companies in Germany and Japan and different places like that to try to figure out like, what's going on, like, because everybody copied their tools, but yet we didn't have the same success, right? And so that's where this kata came in. That's where this, the scientific thinking, you know, target conditions and breaking things down one obstacle at a time. That's where that all came. So you have a great benefit, I think, of learning this right now. And then you can, you can fill in the tools as you go, right? Because the tools are also very important, right? I mean, you do need to know how to do value stream mapping if you don't already. You need to learn eventually, right? And you know, all the other tools, 5s and 7 waste, and they're all very, very important, but they're not necessarily, you know, the danger of the tool approach is that when we learn a tool, we try to force the tool onto a situation that may not call for it. Whereas when we're thinking scientifically, when we come against an obstacle, when we have an obstacle, then we identify the tool we need to clear that obstacle. And if you don't know how to do it, you get friends. You call up me or you call up Katie or you call up Karen and we'll help you, right, to overcome that obstacle. But I think you have a, it's very in a great place, you know, to come into the movement right now. And obviously you've got some fantastic people around you. So you're really lucky.

Thank you. And I feel lucky as well. And thank you for pointing that out because I think you're right. I think I see this the more I learn and go through the books and materials, the more I see this almost collective consciousness right now in the world and in the industry of really looking back at the purpose and the people as the building blocks of the vision, where I think you probably pointing out that before it could have been a tool oriented kit, but actually with all the best tools in the world, if you haven't got your workforce engaged and you haven't got the right purpose, why are you even existing as an organization? Then? You're just going to create a big sort of mix of lots of tools with not the right outcomes at the end of it.

Exactly. But the thing that I think we all have to be careful of also in our movement is we're not real good at temperance within the lean movement or the business world in general, or the world in general. Temperance is not something that we're good at. We have the, There's a danger, I suppose, of we can go overboard with, you know, oh, we gotta think, think, think, you know, and it's great. Yeah, we do need to think. But again, if you don't know how to overcome an obstacle when you come against it, you can stand there and think all day. Right. And never be able to move forward. Right. And so, so having that balance between thinking and tools, you need them both, make no mistake. And if anybody tells you you don't run, right. Because they're wrong or they're, they're overly biased to. But that's what's good about with folks like Karen and Katie. They know the tools, but they also know how to think. So that's where you got to have that balance.

Yeah, that makes absolute sense.

Fantastic. So what do you think as far as your work? You know, what kind of vision do you have for the future of your work of, you know, you're working in sales and marketing. That's very exciting, you know, to apply these tools and these, this way of thinking and this way of learning and this iterative process. What do you see as the vision?

I think that businesses, like I said, more and more, would be looking at integrating this people centered approach and not just customer centered, but also employee centered. So for me, the future of my work looks at helping SMEs and businesses to grow in a kind and creative way. And I'm looking at all my experience and I can potentially have a little bit of a niche of being at that sales and marketing function and serving and promoting, I guess companies but then also understanding at the back end how do you service the customers once you win them. So for me it's, it's really important to have a vision for any business and to just help them make sure that it's focused towards the customer. I think something that I'm also looking at and I'm training with the human workplace is looking at heart intelligence and how do you bring the best out of people really, how do you bring the people's awareness, people's change management and self management, self management abilities so that organizations then become these complex and self organized systems almost like an ecosystem where as people grow, organizations also grow organically. And looking at that collaboration too, I think more and more businesses would start to partner. My vision is that more and more organizations and communities would start to collaborate in this new way towards common purposes.

What about like with competitors? This is always a tricky one, right? Like when you're trying to win business yourself, right? I mean because you do have to keep the lights on, right? You have to be able to, you know, keep, keep things profitable to at least to some extent. What are you, what are your thoughts on, on, on collaborating with, with competitors?

Well, I think it's, it's a fair point but I really think that, that the game, in Simon Sinek words, the game, I think looking at being better than a competitor, I think it's probably not the right way. I think it's instead looking how to collaborate and really provide value in the area that you specialize in. There is a piece there as a marketing consultant that there's always going to be looking at competitive landscape and making sure that you can, you can be prominent and present in the market you're addressing. But I think if you're doing it with the right intention and the right purpose, competition, you know, the best ones are quite clear to the customer.

Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean I can't remember who told me this but I was talking to a lean business leader a couple years ago and they were talking about, I think there were a lean consultant, you know, and a traditional consultant, you know, in person consulting. And, and they were talking about there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of lean consultants out there who in theory they compete with, you know, to, to win work. But he said, you know, Ron, it's kind of like Chinese food restaurants, you know, it's okay to have more than one in a town, right. It doesn't make it bad. Right. I mean, because one day you might go to one restaurant who specializes in that and another restaurant. Restaurant is really good in another. Another side of the cuisine. Right. And so I don't. I think it's okay, you know, And I think if you're in a business without competitors, then that might be more problematic. Right. Because it's like, wait, is there even a demand for this? Right. So, no, I think that's a great perspective.

Absolutely. But I think even looking at Karen and Katie's collaborations and somebody in the UK that I've been mentoring with, Stephen Parry and a lot of these leadership consultancies, they know that the right way to really unite towards the common vision and a purpose in the future is by collaborating. So I think that's the way I look at it.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. So what about when you think about a leader? I'm curious to hear, what do you value the most?

Yeah, great question. And I've been asking that all the people that I've met on my networking journey, the most important qualities for me are this fine balance between confidence and humbleness, or sometimes you can say courage and compassion, but it's really looking at having the ability to make sharp, bold decisions and the right decisions without fear and with love and with belief, but also being open and really aware of how everybody that you meet can be a lesson. You know, having that humbleness to really listen to your teams, to your employees, to the people who you serve and take the feedback in the right way and adapt and evolve accordingly. So I think that there has been a lot of buzz in the last few years about servant leadership and then loving leadership. It really is about being compassionate and open to accept people as they are and take them on a journey without having kind of blame and shame and fear based culture.

Yeah, Yeah, I love it. I love it. So the last question I have for you, so you've been practicing for what sounds like maybe a couple years, is that right?

Yes. Yep.

So a couple years, what surprised you the most as you've been on this journey so far?

I think that the surprise is probably related to your competitive question there because, you know, I think that I was surprised by how much people are really willing to help and collaborate with one another in this field. So really, this continuous improvement space has been the one that I see people really uniting the most. And I'm part of the women in lean global community now, and that's literally women from around the world joining on a daily basis to help each other and all of them, you can say, are competitors, and all of them have their own consultancy and their own work, but they're really willing to collaborate and help. And I've been helped by so many people. I was never expecting it. So I feel really, really lucky and grateful to be in this space.

That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So, you know, we've got. We've had this series going on for a little while where. Where we have some folks who are relatively new to the Lean movement on, and something that we sort of do at the end is I, you know, turn the tables a little bit and, you know, allow the guests to ask me any questions that they might have. So I want to definitely offer you that opportunity. Lilies, if there's anything that you'd like to run past me.

Thank you. Ron. I was hoping you ask one question that I ask everybody I meet with, and specifically, perhaps I'll change it for you a little bit. But what is the biggest truth in life and also in the world of Lean, and what's the biggest lie?

I thought you were going to ask me, like, what's your favorite is value stream mapping? Should you do material boxes first or information for Goodness gracious, biggest truth in life. Okay, let's start. Let's start easy. This is easy, right?

So.

Oh, my gosh. That's a big question. Well, I mean, I guess the way that I gotta answer it, I mean, this is, you know, me speaking obviously here, Ron Pereira. So in. I mean, I'll answer it for me, like, kind of personally, and then I. Then I'll. Then I'll. I think it probably relates to Lean as well. There's definitely a relating side of it, but, I mean, I'm a person of. Of faith, so I don't, you know, make any mistake. People that listen to the show know that. So, like, I do definitely believe that. I mean, one of my favorite movie lines is from the movie Gladiator, when he says, right before the big battle, he says, you know, you know, what we do in life echoes in eternity, right? And so this is a powerful, powerful quote from. From a movie. Now, I don't think he actually said those words, but it's a great line in a mo. And so I do believe personally that, you know, the choices that we make, you know, have eternal consequences. Now, you know, obviously for people who do have faith or they believe in something, you know, heaven or hell or whatever, those consequences are pretty obvious. But I would even go so far as to say that even if folks don't have a You know, don't share the same spiritual beliefs as I do, which is totally fine. There's still consequences, right? Eternal consequence. Consequences to our choices, the way we treat people, right? Like the, the great work that you guys are doing with kindness. And those are eternal consequences, right? The way we interact with one another. So I think that's the biggest truth, is that what we do definitely leads to consequences. Could be good consequences or could be bad consequences. If you say something mean to someone that could harm that person for a long time versus you pick them up or say hello, hello to the person at the checkout line, maybe that's the first hello that they got that day. Right. And so that can have a, you know, a very powerful consequence on that person. So. So, yeah, I mean, I guess I don't know if that answers your question, but that's. That's probably how I would answer the truth question.

It absolutely does. And I love it. Thank you.

Biggest lie. Wow. The biggest lie. So. Huh. So, I mean, I guess probably the way that I answer that is. And it's a tricky one. My answer is tricky. I would say the biggest lie is fear. I mean, there's a famous song, Fear is a Liar, you know, but. But there's different types of fear, you know, like, again, from like a spiritual perspective, you might say fear of the Lord or whatever, you know, so that, that's like kind of back to those consequences. That sort of fear is good. You know, like, we don't want to harm people or do, you know, bad things to lead to bad conseque. But, but the other. So that, that fear is, I would say, okay, that's healthy fear. But the other kind of fear, when we doubt ourselves or, you know, we don't believe we're good enough or we're not capable of doing something, that sort of fear is definitely bad. And it's definitely a lie. It's a liar. So, you know, as it relates to, you know, what we're doing within the lean movement, this is where. And again, like, kind of circling back to our earlier conversation, this whole idea of thinking scientifically, breaking problems down, working through one obstacle at a time, when we approach, you know, things like that, there's no reason to have fear, right? Because we know that you can't really lose when you're thinking scientifically because your experiment is either going to kind of confirm what you thought was going to happen or you're going to learn something else that you didn't know. And in both cases that's good. Right? So there's no reason to have fear when we're thinking scientifically and working our way through problems. So yeah, that's probably. I feel the biggest lie is doubting ourselves and having fear that we can't accomplish things when we clearly can, especially in the lean movement, when we think about things in a scientific manner. What do you think?

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I love it and I really like that because I really resonate as well. I think fear is. I believe that people are good and kind at heart and it's at work specifically, it's the way we raise the culture and the way we lead people with love or with fear is what really shapes how they come back at home after a long day and what impacts society and what impacts families. So I think that, I think something, something that needs eliminating from, from the world and the work and also from lean, I think because everything is learning and everything has value in this. In this world.

Exactly. Fantastic. Well, what. Anything else or. I know it wasn't very necessarily lean oriented. Any lean questions or anything else that. That's on your mind.

Tell me, tell me what, what is the, the one. If you had to name and leave one tool on the table that I really have to learn. I told you about my experience with kata, mainly, right. Would that be.

You know, it's a. Probably a tool that a lot of folks in a lean world may not always go to, but I would say if I could only use one tool to, you know, approach a situation or to try to improve a situation, it would, it would be a one tool. It's dangerous. I mean, this is one of the tools. Let's just preface it by that. But it's called an fmea. Have you ever heard of that? An fmea?

I haven't, no.

So it's, it's. So it's, it's a tool. It was originally used by NASA after one of the unfortunate situations that led to people losing their life. But it's called, it's a failure modes effects analysis. And so it's a tool to where we, we break a process down and we list out all the things that could go wrong in that process. And so these are, these are the inputs, if you will. So, so what we do is we take an, like I always use an example, like if you were planning your, a child's birthday party, right? You could say, well, what's one of the inputs, you know, to the, to the birthday party? And like, say, maybe there's a bounce house, right? Like the big inflatable bounce houses that the Kids jump on. So this is an input. And so what we would do in an FMEA is we would. And the first question we would assess is, what's the failure mode? How could this go wrong? You know, what could go wrong with the bounce house? And then you would say, well, it could, you know, you could get a hole in it, right? That would be bad, right? Because then all the air would leak out. Then we assess that, well, how severe is that failure mode? And so that would be on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being not severe at all, 10 being very severe. Obviously, if you got a hole in the bounce house, that's pretty severe, right? I mean, the kids aren't going to jump, so that would be a 10. And then we work through some other questions, such as what are the occurrences? Like, how often realistically would this happen? You know, and realistically, probably not very often that you're going to get a hole in the balance house. So you might rank that really low from an occurrence perspective, like a 1 or a 2 or a 3, right? Really low. And then the last question is, how easy is it to detect that problem? And again, a hole in the balance house, that's pretty easy to detect, right? I mean, the things, they're gonna be going everywhere and the kids are gonna be screaming. And so that's also a really low number. So what you do is you multiply those numbers, the severity times the occurrence times the severity, and you get what we call an RPN or risk priority number. And this then allows us to assess, you know, where, where do we need to be focusing our attention? Because when you do an FMEA for real, there's probably a few lines that are going to have like an 8 or a 9 for severity, a 7 or 8 for occurrence, and a 9 or a 10 for detection, meaning it's really hard to detect. Right? And so then you have this really high RPN number. And that is like, like, whoa, we've got a big potential issue here, like a really severe problem that might happen a lot, and we can't even really detect it when it does happen. And so then you work together. The right side of the FMEA is more of like an action plan, like a Kaizen newspaper almost, where you're. You're figuring out what can we do to improve this situation. And so I've been involved in many projects over the years where we got to an fmea. We maybe did some process mapping before, and then we. A couple other tools, and then we led into an FMEA and Honestly, by the, you know, FMEA is not get rich quick. You actually have to go take action. Right. Later. But using that tool as a, as a mechanism to kind of drive action. I've, I've seen many projects successfully completed and that's all they needed was that FMEA and the actions that led from it. So, so it's a really, from a marketing perspective, you could do it for sure. You know, like, you know, what could go wrong with this, with this campaign? You know, how, how, how often do we think that might go wrong? How easy is it to detect when things aren't going the way we want them to go before it's too late? Right. And so, so I would say that's, that's a tool that you might, you could look into. I would say again, not a, not a traditional Lean tool, unfortunately, it's more sometimes on the Six Sigma side. But you know, I'm not a believer in Lean or Six Sigma. Just learn it. All right. And because it's a super, super powerful tool.

Yeah. Thank you for recommending and that, that's, that's really interesting. And I have a 4 year old son and I'm now thinking every time we go to a bouncy castle, I'm going to be checking for, for failure.

Exactly. Because it would not be fun for, to deal with your son if the bounce house goes down.

Right. Yeah. Awes. Thank you. That's wonderful.

You're welcome. You're welcome. All right. Well Lily, what is the best way for folks to connect with you?

LinkedIn is the best way. So everybody can find me on LinkedIn. Lily Bujanova. And yeah, I'm always open to network and learn from people and definitely the network that you've built over the years, I would be super, super interested to follow up and speak to them in the next few years.

Absolutely. So I'll spell it and then we'll put this in the show notes as well. But your, your first name is L I L I. Right? Is that right?

Yes.

And then your last name is B O Y A N O V A. So everybody go look up Lily on LinkedIn and connect with her and we'll also put this in the show notes, Lily. So this is episode 351. So folks can just go to GembaPodcast.com look for episode 351 and we'll link to, to Lily's LinkedIn and anything else that you want to link to. Hey, final words of wisdom, Lily. Speak to that person who is new to the lean movement and they're just learning. What words of encouragement do you have for them?

Gosh, interesting question. I think in one way or another, everybody that wants to create value in this world should look into the lean community as an inspiration. I think there are so many fantastic leaders and so many tools like you say, but also ways of thinking and solving problems that it can just be applied to anything. And I know so many people doing lean at home, even though they are not necessarily part of the lean profession. So I think, you know, if I can end with a quote, I would say don't show up to proof. Show up up to improve. And I think everybody, you know, I love that to be a mantra for everybody to show up and do their best, the best possible job at work, and then keep looking for ways to improve the world that we live in so that our children can grow up in the best possible world.

Absolutely wonderful, wonderful advice to end on. Lily, thank you so much for coming onto the show. This has been really, really fun. I appreciate you carving out some time and maybe we can do it again down the road sometime.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Ron. I loved it.

Okay, take care.

Thank you. Bye.

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