GA 362 | Ethos, Logos, and Pathos in Continuous Improvement with David Larsen

It's difficult to connect dots. You know, everybody's going to learn differently and understand differently. So going from something written with pictures and maybe some arrows or somebody, you know, role modeling in a picture, something gets lost.

Today I'm excited to welcome David Larson to the show. Now David was a real treat to talk with he as he'll explain he's kind of got an engineering background but, but actually after the interview was over and we had stopped the recording, we were chatting a little bit more and I told him how great of a job he did and you know, that he, that he, that I personally felt like, you know, we've talked a little bit about over the last few episodes about the difference between ethos and logos and pathos and ethos and logos. Logos in particular is kind of like engineers, you know, they live in logos, which is logic and spreadsheets and facts and data and graphs. But that pathos, that, that, that emotional side, it's not always an engineer strong point. But I gotta tell you, David is one of those guys where yeah, I know he can throw down on a logo side and you know, he's got all the credibility for ethos but he also has pathos. You can tell this guy genuinely cares about what he's doing and it really, really came through. So anyhow, he's got a manufacturing background but he transitioned to healthcare. And we also talk about a case study that he wrote. But honestly my favorite part was towards the end I just started kind some rapid fire questions at him and I asked him a question I don't think I've ever asked anybody before on the show and that was what he was grateful for. And that was really probably the highlight of the episode for me was, was his answer to that. So any, I'll be sure to listen towards the end. Good, good stuff. Show notes for this episode which will include links to the various articles that David's written in and we talk a little bit about on the, on the podcast we'll link to all those. And so that's GembaPodcast.com just look for episode 362. Again GembaPodcast.com and look for episode 362. Also during the episode we kind of joke at the end that David's going to come on and write a guest article for our Gemba Academy's blog. And sometimes the blog is a lot of people subscribe to it, a lot of people read it, but not everybody knows we actually do it. Believe it or not, everybody knows we do a podcast. So Something we got to do a better job of. But every Monday and every Friday, we release a blog article. John Miller writes every Monday, and then me, Kevin Meyer, and Steve Cain kind of rotate Fridays. So there's. There's a couple new blog articles going up every week. So for that, just go to blog.gembaacademy.com and there's thousands of blog articles in there, so lots of. Lots of content in there. And it's all free, so be sure to check those out as well and subscribe if you're not already there. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. David, welcome to the show. How's it going?

It's going great, Ron. So great to connect with you.

Yeah, man, well, thanks for coming on. So where are you calling in from?

It's a pleasure to be with you. I appreciate the opportunity. I'm calling in from sunny southwest Florida, my home here in Port Charlotte.

Nice, nice. Well, David, I know you've listened to the show a few times, and we do like to get going with a quote. So do you have one?

I do, Ron, A quote that resonates with me because of a focus on and respect for people is one that I've heard used many times in messages coming from a poll pulpit, and I believe it's attributed to Teddy Roosevelt. Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

What's that mean to you?

For me, it really drives my approach and it. And it almost takes me back to, you know, one of my favorite mistakes that I learned from as a junior engineer, but especially with manufacturing, talking to operators. They know, they see an engineer coming from a mile away and it's. And it's, you know, it's not about, you know, me being the engineer and talking to an operator. I want to talk to the expert. I want to put my audience at ease, that I'm not here to beat them up. I'm here to support them and support the process.

Yeah.

So telling them, you know, how educated I am means nothing but coming along and chit chatting about college football for five minutes. And then when they tell me, all right, Dave, I know you're here to talk about work. What you got to me, I've. I've won over my customer. My customer's the operator. My customer's an area business manager. My customers customer's an operational leader. So to me, that quote speaks to how I have to show up and how I have to approach frontline team members.

Who's a college football team?

Oh, my alma mater. Is the University of Florida.

Oh boy, oh boy. So I grew up in Ohio, so you can guess where my allegiance. Not the Ohio Bobcats. So we had a rough go of it a few. Few weeks ago there against old Alabama. But you know, whatever, you know, it is what it is for sure.

Well, you're a tough. You're a tough nut to crack, I'll tell you that.

I like it. I like it. Yeah. Elaine Crescione who works for Gamma academy, she's her H.U.S.B. a Florida alum. And so they're big. They're big Gator fans obviously and were big Urban Meyer fans, but now it's like the man whose name shall not be said in this house.

I can track with that. I can track with that 100%.

Yeah. No, it's awesome. Although my son, his dad's a huge Buckeye fan. So my son has grown up being Ohio State fan and so he's a rabbit Ohio State fan. But I'll tell you who is his favorite player of all is actually Mr. Tebow. So yeah. Oh my gosh. Every book that Thiebow's written, he's my son's red. And we just watch the little horribly produced documentary the other. I was like, that's really bad quality, but cool story.

I can track with that many a times. I can think of using Tebow as an icebreaker. Just something to talk about at that time. Absolutely.

Yeah. Good stuff. Hey David, so tell us a little bit about your background. Tell us how you first got introduced to all this continuous improvement stuff that we. That we all love. And then tell us what you're up to these days.

Absolutely. So I'm an operational excellence professional. I started out 21 years ago as a process engineer at a Department of Energy managed facility. I earned some certifications along the way. Planning and scheduling, professional and project management professional certifications, which opened a door for me to go into project management. Then I changed organizations taking me back into a process and quality engineering role where I achieved my lean six sigma black belt with Bridgestone Americas.

Nice.

And so currently I serve as a performance excellence specialist at a healthcare system in southwest Florida.

Got it. Got it. So I understand from chatting with you a little earlier that you haven't always been in healthcare. That used to be old manufacturing guy running around. So talk about that. Like what was that? What's that all about? As far as going from manufacturing to healthcare and how did it go?

It's been a great opportunity. And it kind of leads back to the quote that resonates with Me. So back in fall of 2019, a dream opportunity presented itself to me. Kind of a confluence of professional and personal desires. Through life. I can recall several prominent events where healthcare heroes made an impact for members of my family. And so those events very much inspired to me when, when I was approached with an opportunity to join a health care organization in a role as a performance excellence specialist. You know, you only know what you know, where you are sometimes and getting the chance to share my skill set, I see it as a role and, and a means of personal contribution. Giving back to healthcare heroes, it really is an honor. So, you know, I was recruited by my organization out of where I was at in manufacturing and I grew up in Florida, Gulf coast, first job out of college, it took me at least to the Southeast, getting to stay close to family. And I tried several times through the years to find an opportunity to come and be closer to home. It just never presented itself. But through professional development, developing myself and developing a skill set, it was so neat. Neat's not even a word. It's mind blowing to be recruited into healthcare and to be a non clinical person, to come alongside physicians, clinicians, nurses, and they want to hear from me and my voice is value added because of my approach. It's, it's very humbling. Mm.

Was it scary?

You know, I didn't find it to be scary personally, you know, especially coming from manufacturing where if you step into a line of fire of a, of a, you know, the wrong kind of equipment, it's just as life threatening as it is within healthcare. But with the approaches that they take and the personal protective equipment and really from my perspective, I'm coming in contact with frontline leaders, not so much patient care directly. So from my personal comfort level, I was not scared. The onboarding process was fun and we can talk about that later. But the transition from daily face to face work to, to remote work was the most scary to me because at the end of the day I'm a little bit of a people person and, and I crave that collaborative. Let's sit around a whiteboard and, and write some things out and brainstorm in, in that remote environment, it's a little bit of a challenge to overcome.

Yeah, yeah. And I guess what I meant by scary was, and you answered it was like not necessarily always scared because of health care and seeing, you know, patients, but it would be more this industry change you' to one thing, manufacturing, and then all of a sudden the things that add value are patients moving through a hospital versus pieces of metal or Whatever it might be. So I've known a lot of people that have made the jump from manufacturing to healthcare. It's going to be interesting because lean is becoming so prevalent now in healthcare that it's going to be interesting, I would say probably in another five to 10 years. I bet you there's going to be. It's going to be the reverse. There's going to be people who kind of grew up in HealthC and they're like, hey man, I'm gonna try this manufacturing thing, you know, and they jump in that way. They bring their lean experience from healthcare and go into manufacturing. That'll be a fun podcast to have when someone that does happen.

I would agree with that. I would listen.

Yeah, yeah. So listen. I understand that you've written a case study. What's that all about?

I have written a case study. So during 2020, having a little bit of time to reflect, personal time along with professional, I looked back on an experience while I was still with Bridgestone supporting my facility, and I took the opportunity to write down a great experience as a black belt coach supporting someone who was going after and pursuing their yellow belt certification. And it was on a safety improvement project. I really enjoyed the time supporting the frontline team and putting thought into words. I found value with the exercise of organizing myself from thought and concept into a vehicle to be able to share with others, to obtain professional credibility with the exercise of writing. There's a part of me that derive satisfaction from functioning as a mentor partner. To be able to inspire someone through a conversation, share a nugget, and to be able to see that light bulb ignite for someone, to me is very satisfying. And so through the use of writing, I used it as a means of reflection. And so the case study as an example, it was something that went well. The team learned through the project, and it also gave me a chance to see, you know, what would I do different in. In a coaching mentoring session next time?

So what motivated you? I mean, to. To really want to ride? I mean, that's. It's a lot of work, you know, to. To do something like that.

Yeah, I honestly, I didn't see. I didn't see it as work. I saw it as. As a little bit of a mental exercise. I saw it as a fun opportunity to collaborate with a personal friend of mine through it. And I saw it as a way of developing, telling a story. And it's funny to say telling a story about work, but in order to validate that it's more than just credentials and the Pursuit of gaining recognition, but the exercise of putting thought to paper and making sure that you can convey it to others, that's what we do when we facilitate a session. Right. It's more than words, it's visual management. So through the thought of writing an article, I have to be able to concisely communicate my thought. So if you pick up an article and you read it, does the thought come across to have support from an editor? I don't know if you'll allow, but my case study I had published through iSix Sigma.com yeah. And the editor there was very supportive and very helpful, asking leading questions to allow me to improve my article as I submitted it. So it was very collaborative and helpful in that way. So, you know, I didn't see it as work. I saw it as mapping out a new process for myself. A means of sharing learnings with others outside of a personal or professional organization. Somebody that I would. I'll never have be able to have contact with, but they can reach out to me and, and we can have a conversation about, hey, I read your case study. I'm working here. And so it's also a means of networking. You know, thinking about it now, it's. It's just another way to, to reach out and connect.

I mean, can, I mean, we'll, we'll. I'm sure we can. We'll link to the, to the case study, but give us the highlights. You know, I mean, of. I'm actually pulling it up right now on i6 Sigma, looking for it here. Just I cover the highlights is an improved rescue time from a boiling mill machine. Is it that one?

Yeah, it's a bowling mill. So it's a type of calendar mill. So a calendar mill, series of rollers. So you're loading in some bulk rubber and through the series of rollers, going to mill that rubber down to a specific thickness. And this bowling mill, this calendar was within a quality lab. And so there was a team member that transitioned from a production area into the lab. She had a high acumen, pursuing her yellow belts certification within the organization. And she approached me, she's like, I have finally a project opportunity. I'm like, okay, lay it on me. And the project was she was becoming familiar with the standards and the processes of the laboratory that she was joining. And she looked at the standards, looked at the tools in place, and on a high level, she was identifying some gaps. She said, I'd like to scope this. Do you think we could run a drill? We approached safety team members that we could run A drill. We could do a video recording to collect some data because thankfully we haven't had to put these working standards into direct practice to save or rescue a team member within any time soon. So that's a good thing. But she saw an opportunity, looking at the standards to close some gaps. So we wanted to collect some data and when we performed the drill, the baseline performance, performing to the standard specifically and going through the motions of where the tools at. So we recorded a baseline of 7.14 minutes to rescue a team member and attend to them before the safety team came to lead them off a stretcher through the improvement project. They were able to come and realize a reduction of 35%. So that gets it down to performing another drill to the new standard, getting to 4.59 minutes. And many countermeasures were put into place. Some great shadowboarding tools were used and put into place to be able to efficiently find the tools needed to perform the rescue and, and support that team member should they ever be put into that bad position.

So like how did you simulate it? You, you mentioned like a drill, but like, like what did you do? Like, because obviously you don't want to put anybody in harm's way. So how were you able to validate the current condition and, and then the improved condition?

So it was very much a role play drill situation where the mill machine itself was shut down, secured, locked out, tagged out 100%, but simulating a person, you know, kind of standing in front there where you might have had a hand or a glove, getting in a pinch point situation and then having the supporting team members that are in the lab and really going through a full on role play drill scenario, everybody going and grabbing those rescue tools and all right. And going through even though the machine is already set up as safe, you know, what actions would you do, what wrenches would you turn to get the team member out of that pinch point situation and really going through methodically. How would I perform those tasks? And there was some confusion recorded in those videos that I don't know what my role is or a delay in making a phone call and sitting idly back and really allowing everybody to just perform the role and not coach in the moment that was hard for us not to encourage people on, but allowing the role play to play out and that provided that baseline data.

Yeah, I'm skimming through the article here and one of the things that in the improvement actions prepared one of the bullet points here, the last one was he converted written standard work to video standard work. That's super interesting to me. I've seen that a number of times be very successful. I think one of the first times that I saw it was at FastCap, you know our friends over there at FastCap, Paul Akers and the guys and, and they had this really huge printer and they did all this pretty sophisticated Kanban printing kind of things, you know there and lots of different labels being printed out and you know, to kind. He handed me the instructions and goes here's the written instructions. And I'm like okay, it's going to take me a while. He goes or you can press play on this iPad that's sitting right here. And I press play and then Graham walked us through it in two or three minutes and I'm like oh yeah, I got it. So talk a little bit about the difference between that written standard work and the video standard work. How did that go?

I thought it went very well. This is something that Bridgestone was really transitioning to and so it was a matter of great timing at least for this particular project and example. So you know, written word and visually managing it's difficult to connect dots. You know, everybody's going to learn differently and understand differently. So going from something written with pictures and maybe some arrows or somebody, you know, role modeling in a picture something what gets lost, it's not, it's not a perfect process. With video standard you get to hone in on that, see one, do one, teach one, you get to see some more of that hands on. So you know, a new employee, we have a series of videos for you to watch, get more comfortable. You know, maybe there still may be some quizzing and testing before you actually get hands on with equipment but to me it's that bridging the gap. It's more than reading. You get to see it performed more clearly and then you get to have some of that hands on time. So I think the video standard work really is supportive of those different learners that may not really connect dots from written and pictured standards, if that makes sense.

Yeah, well I'm obviously love me some video. I think video is the way of the future. Right Academy?

Sure. Plug right, go for it. It's your podc.

Nah, it's all good.

So.

No, that's really good man. So I'm gonna definitely link to this, to the article, the i6 Sigma article and yeah, shout out to ISIC Sigma. By the way, you know I don't go to their website that much anymore but boy, back in the day when I was first learning man, Isaac Sigma was like the place where you want to find information. They've got so much good stuff in there. So they've been a survivor man. Over the years, a lot of websites have come and gone, but they've hung in and done a great job, those folks. So, yeah, well done. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, back to kind of your, your personal story here. And I like to maybe explore a little bit the organizational, maybe some of the cultural differences that you've experienced really over your career. And so talk a little bit about that. These different places that you've been.

Yeah. Coming from manufacturing and into healthcare, what I've been seeing, and it came through and came across even through the interviewing process, that there's a certain inertia in healthcare that is people focused and people centric. There's just such a contrast between industries that I've been a part of. And it made, I think for me, it made the transition just that much easier because while there are processes, it's still about the people and how you approach the process, you approach the problem solving, the collaborative nature, the culture of the organization specifically that I've joined with the attitude of the want to continuously improve is there. And it's something that I've observed with previous organizations that I know, a previous podcaster, I can't quote the gentleman's name, but maybe it was more of an appearance than the direct presence of continuous improvement for previous organizations that I've been a part of. And it's discouraging for someone whose mindset that I'm here to come to work to add value. And so it's really a pleasure to have an organization that the want to continuously improve is there. And it's very people centered. And it's likely because of the part of the business, whether it's the healthcare heroes or whether it's patients, that the process is focused on the people. So it's really, it's a dream come true to be able to support the organization I'm a part of.

Yeah, I think you're probably Talking about episode 354 with Patrick Adams avoiding the continuous appearance trap.

Yeah, I was, I listened to that one. And that was, that was a very good message.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's a great one. That's a great one. So you, you kind of teased us a little bit earlier about an onboarding process that you've, that you've gone through, I guess during a pandemic. Right. So what was that like?

Well, and that's the part that was, that was scary, right? And it was scary not because of healthcare, but just organizational change. So I joined. In March of 2020, I joined my new organization and I was literally the last in person orientation class that occurred. And the organization pivoted rather quickly and they adapted very quickly to the facilitation model. They needed to go virtual. And it was again scary for me personally, but impressive on how they responded, how the respect for the people shows through. And my team, I got the chance to work alongside of team members, you know, cautiously, physically distanced. And then when we couldn't be together, it was virtual and it was how the flow of information changes. It was again being a hands on, in person kind of a guy. It went very well. It was smooth operations and it was a really great transition. A lot of changes occur within an organization during such times when, when, when operations are changed. But it was, it was a good experience. 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. So question. I've kind of gone back into the archives a little bit in some of these recent episodes and kind of asking some questions that we used to ask in the past that we kind of gotten away from. But I come to realize like I really missed those questions. So I'm going to, I think I'm going to start reviving some of them. And one of my favorite ones is, you know, if you, if you think back to, you know, if you could go back and speak to David yourself, you know, present day David could go talk back to David really on that kind of, that very beginning of that continuous improvement journey, like if there was any particular advice that you could give yourself, what would it be?

Yeah, you know, it's got to be voice of the customer. You know, I grew up in a very much blue collar family first out of my family to get to go to college. So no pressure there. It was, you know, high school was great, college was challenged, you know, even being far away from family. But in school I don't feel like I recall, you know, listening that customer voice. And I think I alluded to it and it's a future article I'm considering developing. But it's that voice of the customer, you know, Favorite mistake I learned from as a young junior engineer is an opportunity to improve a chemical, a feed batch chemical system. And, and I was so excited at the opportunity to continuously improve this process that I didn't consult the frontline team at all. I didn't consult the end user at all. I just went on designing and specking out a gorgeous auger fed system that well I didn't even consult supply chain that we'd have to change over how we acquire this solid chemical that we dilute up with water to make the solution. I just, I was, I was all gung ho that you have to analyze your stakeholders, you have to meet the customer's needs, you have to listen, you have to add value. And that would definitely be the first thing I'd go back and talk to my younger self about. Like, you got a lot of head knowledge, boy, but slow down. Yeah. And listen to who you're serving. That servant leadership attitude. I've, I made some mistakes along the way and it never impacted me professionally. But all These years later, 20 years later, I don't forget it. It's now become my favorite mistake versus kicking myself over it. Why didn't I ask? That was an easy one.

Yeah, good, good, good. You know, something that I've personally been trying to do a lot of, you know, always tried to, but sometimes I'm not so good at it. Especially last year or so, it's been pretty rotten. Right. So. But trying to really think about gratitude and the things that I'm grateful for and in my life and whatnot. So I'm curious to hear, if you don't mind me, sort of a personal question, but like what are you grateful for? And you know, feel free to keep it, you know, professionally speaking or it could be anything. Then I'm just curious like what are you grateful for?

You know, boy, you know, I'm grateful for a supportive family, you know, especially with the transition to up and move. I have, you know, two younger kiddos and an awesome wife and go getting choked up on you. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's all right. But you know, it's something that I've focused very much on family and I get to have a great professional career. I never along the way put, put career necessarily first. And so I'm very thankful for a great support system and you know, I'm thankful for an opportunity to, to serve others that's, you know, can not go personal for me because of, of how I've, you know, made choices and aligned things in my life. I, I look back at leaders and I ask thought provoking questions to myself on why not that direction, why not there. And I don't have those opportunities as of yet to ask certain thought provoking questions. But I don't know about sacrifice that others make to pursue roles and positions. But I'm thankful and grateful that I never sacrificed family in professional related pursuits.

Love it, love it.

Fantastic. That makes sense.

No, it does. Totally. Totally. I mean, it's pretty clear what your why is. Right. And that's something that we always try to get folks to really understand. Like, what's your why? Like, why are you doing this? What's your purpose? What's your cause? You know, what are you fighting for here? Right. So. And that why can be professionally, but also it ultimately comes back to personal.

Right.

Like, what's your personal why?

I think so. And I love how you asked that. The why the driver. Only within the last year or so did I find Simon Sinek, and, you know, listening to some of his TED Talks videos, and, you know, I try to approach the work. I look for the opportunity to share the why when it comes to a project or an improvement or an improvement initiative to make sure that the team that's involved, that they understand the why. And it's not me conveying the why, but pulling it out of as a frontline team, frontline leader. What is the why for this project? I believe I align with you, share the why. Everybody starts getting on that same page.

Yeah, Well, I don't know if you've. This is a long time ago. It was back in 2016, but Mr. Sinek came onto the Gemba Academy podcast in episode 76. We weren't even triple digits back then. 76. It was October 3rd, 2016. So, yeah, if you haven't listened to that one, go back and check that one out that you talk about, you know, being a little bit nervous as an interviewer calling up Mr. Simon Sinek. I was a little nervous, man. He actually yelled at me at one point during it as well. Not in a bad way, but he got all fired up on me, so you'll have to listen to that one. That was a fun, fun, fun episode.

Yeah. I have not gone that far. Back in the archives.

Yeah. 76.7.

Yeah.

Go check it out. Yeah. Good stuff, man. All right, well, hey, Dave, this has been super fun, man. I. I really appreciate your.

Yeah.

You know, you can just hear, you know, authenticity in your voice and that you really care and that you really. You're. You're in it for the right reason. So. So keep up the great work, and thanks for coming on, and why don't you maybe wrap things up with, I don't know, some final words of wisdom for the folks listening, and then for sure, tell folks how they can connect with you. Social media, whatever.

Absolutely. For those who bantered around the idea of considering being a published writer, you can do it if you choose to pursue it. You got to determine the value for yourself though. Consider creating a personal PDCA to make the effort visual. Set a timeline and a target and a goal. I'm connected and active on LinkedIn. You can look me up under David Larson. Larson spelled L, A, R S, E N and yeah, feel free to reach out, interact with me on isixsigma.com I have my article, my case study there and I also have articles on available for read on Six Sigma Daily.

Yeah, well we'll put all, we'll link to all your articles on in the show notes. So that's just so folks remember one URL go to GembaPodcast.com and then it's a episode 362. So we'll link to the i6 Sigma and all the other articles and David, you need to write a guest blog for Gemba Academy's blog, man. Come on, you know, I know you're.

I would love that. Now that, now that I have the invite, I'm there.

That's it man. Now you're committed. Everybody's listening. So want everybody to check back with David in like six months and make sure that he's, he's held up his end of the bargain.

I appreciate, appreciate the invitation and it's been a great pleasure today, Ron. Thank you.

All right, you're welcome man. Take care. Thanks David. Thanks for listening. Whether you've been on the continuous improvement journey for many years or perhaps you're just getting started, Gemba Academy is here to support you. And while we're best known for our more than 1500 lean and 6 Sigma teaching and virtual tour videos, we also have a team of experienced Lean and Six Sigma practitioners available for one on one coaching, as well as a variety of Lean and Six Sigma certification options. To learn more and to schedule a demo, head on over to gembaacademy.com.