GA 374 | Lean, Learning, and Karate with Kieran Dougall

So you could give a mechanic the most expensive $2,000 snap on tool set in the world and he could identify all of the tools within it and he could name them and say when they're supposed to be applied. But until he can put the tools in his hand and actually do a job with them, they're not much use.

Today I'm excited to welcome Kieran Duel to the show. Now, as you'll hear, Kieran is a little bit newer to the Lean movement. He's been at it for a few years, but he's got a interesting story. He, he actually come. He has a background in karate. And so part of the episode was a really interesting conversation on parallels between, you know, maybe some hurdles that he faced in karate and learning about karate and some of the early hurdles he experienced learning Lean. And part of it was a little bit of a hint was the language that was being used. And so I thought that was a really interesting parallel. So we also talk a little bit about how he, how he first came into pract Lean. He has a background in engineering and he was finding himself having to, you know, reduce the number of clicks that was taking to do some software program, different things like that. And so he was, he was needing Lean before he even realized what it was. And so really, really interesting story and I think you're going to enjoy the episode. The show. Notes for this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 374 again gembapodcast.com and for episode 374. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Kieran, welcome to the show. How's it going?

It's going well, Ron, thanks for having me on. It's interesting after being such a longtime listener to be speaking for a change, but I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for the opportunity.

Wow, my pleasure.

Yeah.

Thanks for taking the time to come on. So what part of the world are you calling in from, Kieran?

Calling in from Ireland. A small town in the north of Ireland called Craig Aven, if anybody's heard of it.

Well, I've not heard of it, but been to, to Ireland several times and it's one of my, my wife, she had her dream we would live there, you know, so maybe we.

Maybe.

Yeah. She loves it. She loves it. I think she's smitten for you, your guys's Irish accents as well, you know, so. Yeah. Yeah.

What do you have?

Well, good stuff, Kieran. Well, hey, so I listened to the show and you know how we like to get things going. It's with our guest sharing a quote. So do you have one?

Yeah, I actually have two quotes or something. I have a lot of myself of a wee notepad on the desk where I like to write them down if somebody tells me one. I'm worker if I read one. So it was really hard picking just one. But something that's been important to me through my working and studying journey is I've always had the two together. So I thought I'd choose a quote that ties in both to the importance of experience and of theory to me. So the first quote is one that was told to me by my sensei, not in the lean sense, but in the more maybe recognizable karate sense. And he always told us that the right move at the wrong time is still the wrong move. So a move could be right in the sense that it's executed perfectly, but if it's executed at the wrong time, you won't get the same benefits that you would expect it. Or in worst case scenario, it could be counterproductive. It just really reiterates that timing's everything and so much more than just martial arts.

Yeah, for sure.

That's great. The second one is one by Albert Einstein and he says, as the radius of our knowledge grows, so too does the circumference of the darkness surrounding it. And I think that just ties in really well to the concept of kaizen and continuous improvement. You know, there isn't really a goal. There's no end point where we stop. And the more we improve, the more we know, the further we get. It only really enlightens us to how much more is left to achieve.

Love it. Very good, very good. All right, well, Kieran, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background, how you first got into all this continuous improvement stuff, and then tell us what you're up to these days.

Yeah. So unlike maybe a few other guests on the podcast, my experience is a bit more limited. I'd only started working in engineering industry five years ago. This year it started with a three year apprenticeship program with my current employer, that's Thompson Aero Seaton. We make first class business class seats for passenger jets. And the first two years was sort of a rotation around different departments. So I had a stint in electrical design, mechanical design, certification and testing and aftermarket. But the final year and another year and a half after that, I was in new department at the time, the Engineering Systems department. And it was established to manage our CAD systems, our PLM systems, our manufacturing planning systems. And all the processes really related to those, both the internal usage of them and any sort of auxiliary processes that would integrate to them. And it was really by accident that was started. Well, maybe not by accident, but when we began working towards Lean principles or a Lean methodology, I didn't know what Lean was at the time. You know, it was a new department, there was two of us, me and the manager, and we were actually an IT function. So we weren't always working with guys that had an engineering background. So Lean was kind of an unknown concept to me at the time anyway. But a lot of what we were trying to do was Lean based. Reflecting back now, it tied in very well to our Lean principles. So it was in that department for two and a half years. And off the back of a cross functional project within that department, I made a move to the manufacturing department full time, where I still work today. And I've been working on improving our standard work within the manufacturing team to create the standard work for our assembly operatives.

Got it. So I think really what I want to focus on today and just in brainstorming some ideas before we, we came on and hit record is really maybe around the theme of learning about Lean, since as you mentioned, you know, you've only been at it for a few years and I think a lot of our listeners might be able to relate and even if they've been in it for a long time, we're all learning, right? So maybe let's just talk a little bit about your journey like and as far as how, you know, how you've gone about learning about Lean. I know you sort of accidentally fell into it, but. But then how do you do more? Formalize it?

So as I say, I was completing an apprenticeship program at the time, so I was working with the employer four days a week and I was in college one day. And one of our units in college was a class called Business Improvement Techniques. And when we first seen it, me and the other guys that were in the class, we seen it on our timetable, we sort of thought business improvement techniques. How does that relate to engineer? Are they going to teach us about managing facilities or finances or something? We were very set that engineering was designing parts, going into the workshop and making them, and then, you know, a bit of assembly. But the Business Improvement techniques class was focusing on our Lean methodology and Lean thinking. It introduced us to the basics of our seven wastes and the five S's. And it was when we got formalized, formally shown it in the classroom that I sort of reflected back to the Work we were doing in the systems department and thought, ah, this is what I was working towards. You know, it was kind of like an aha moment because relating a bit more to the systems side of things, you know, Lean's traditionally thought of as being, you know, rooted in manufacturing. When we were creating processes and standard work for our CAD systems and manufacturing planning systems, we were carrying out time studies of interacting with the user interface of these systems, how many menus we had to go through, dwell times, button clicks, and we were choosing the processes that had the least clicks, the least dwell time. At menus you didn't have enter information twice. Sorry. So we were looking to reduce these wastes, but hadn't been introduced to the concept of mudder or wastes at the time. So it was that class at college that turned me on to Lean as a concept, you know, giving it a name and giving it this more formal set of rules. And from there, because I did gel with it so much, I started reading, reading around the topic myself and, you know, trying to cram in as much as I could, learning from YouTube videos and finding blogs and podcasts like yourself and stuff like that.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. So it's interesting you're talking about reducing clicks and all the rest of it. Did you even realize what you were doing or which happened first? You know, the need for Lean or Lean itself? Because it sounds like you were sort of falling into things like 5s and maybe reducing the 7 wastes and different things like that. And you might not even realize that. Or did you realize it?

Well, I didn't realize it had a name, you know, that Lean was the umbrella term for what we were doing. But it more came about as a necessity for the business at the time. I suppose it could give you a bit of a background of what was happening. So our company was going through a massive expansion. Originally we had maybe 30 users on our CAD and PLM systems and one new guy starting every two months. So he started and you were able to sit down face to face and communicate the processes with him. But over the space of a year and a half, we grew from about 30 users to 300 users. And when 10 people are starting to wake, you know, that method of teaching doesn't scale up and there were no processes in at the time. So we were under fire to try and standardize our work and put the best practices in the standard. So it just made sense to us that when we were trying to create standard work that we worked towards picking the best standard. You know, we didn't want to be standardizing anything that was wrong or inefficient and it tied well into reducing wastes. And then when we were creating the documentation as well, something I always kept in mind was a concept from Don Norman in one of his books, Living with Complexity. And he talks about the difference between complexity and complication, where complexity is an inherent difficulty with a task but can be understood because it's logical and intuitive and complication is difficulty that is unnecessary and comes from unintuitive design. So when we were creating these standard work documents, we were trying to focus on removing complication and simplifying the complexity. So when we removed any unnecessary complication from a logical plan and with the good stuff we had left, we wanted to standardize the format and you know, we color coded all our documents so they all tied together. And looking back now, it really ties into, you know, our 5s. You know, we sorted the good from the bad and with the good that was left, we wanted to, you know, set straight and standardize it in a format that was easy to, to read and gather the information from. But it came about as a necessity for the business. You know, there was never a notion to set out and find this methodology of creating standard work or anything.

So hadn't. How did you formalize formally? I mean you mentioned YouTube videos and are you self taught or you know, like you obviously are very comfortable talking about lean these days, so it's not an accident anymore. Right. So take us up the present day. Like how, what's gotten you to this point?

So after completing the business improvement techniques class in college, it was actually one of our last classes in the apprenticeship program. I went on to continue part time study with work. So I'm currently studying for my bachelor's degree part time. And we've had some lean classes or lean content that has fell in the some of our units in those classes. But as well as that I've, you know, drove myself towards studying towards it in my own time. You know, it took last summer to complete Lean Six Sigma course online just because, you know, Covid shut everything down and there was nothing else really to be at but you know, and reading around the topic just from books, you know, of a lot of the old productivity press books, you know, the real old originals. Yep. But it's really been self fueled.

Yeah, I think it's the best man. You know, I mean, honestly, it's kind of my journey, you know, I mean it was in the beginning I just sort of fell into it. The job I had at the time. And then I just, you know, I feel like if you have this innate fire inside of you to make things better, then it's almost like, okay, now I've got a little fire. Now I have some fuel over here. You can now, you know, and then you can really. Can really make great things happen. When it's truly inside of you and it sounds like it's been inside of you all along.

Yeah, it doesn't feel like work when you have a genuine interest in it. You know, I'd spend evenings reading books on, you know, lean philosophy. And some of my favorite books to read are books that kind of read like a thriller. So rather than a book of lean tools, you know, here's what a. Here's what I see.

What are some of your favorites?

I really like Jim Lancaster's work of management because when you read it, you know, that's what I was saying. It reads like a thriller rather than being a list of tools. Here's what the tool is. Here's how to apply it. It provokes a thinking process that you also need to be able to apply. So you're reading that book, and he's working on the paint line. He introduces standard work, and then he flies off for two weeks and comes back and they're no longer the new standard work. And as you're reading it, you're thinking, you know, oh, God, so why did they stop following it? You know what? Why did they choose to revert back to the old way? How are you going to tackle this? I wonder what he's going to do next. That's what you're thinking about when you're reading the book. But realistically, when you're working in industry, these are the questions that you need to be asking yourself. If you introduce a new standard work on a line and you come back and people aren't following it anymore, the cm, you know, quality issues are popping up. You need to be asking yourself, you know, I wonder what could be provoking this to arise, Or I wonder why the guys aren't inclined to follow it. And I think books that provoke that thought process are that they're more beneficial than books that are just definitions of, you know, lean words, what they mean, lean tools and how to apply them. Because I think the difficulty is the thought process and knowing when and how to apply these tools rather than just knowing about the tools themselves.

Yeah, exactly. Hey, so earlier you mentioned that you were into karate, like traditional karate. And so I'm curious to hear if there's any parallels between your experience with that and how you learned about that, are you, like, big time, like, black belt kind of karate, or what's your status there?

Yeah, well, I've been doing karate a few years longer than I've been working in the engineering industry and, you know, been to, you know, some national and international championships and all the rest. So I'd probably be more qualified to talk on that than lean. But, you know, there is a lot of crossover. I felt some of the same problems or maybe not problems, but hurdles or difficulties when trying to learn, you know, a lean philosophy where the same problems or hurdles experience when trying to learn karate. And I think, you know, anyone even looking from the outside in would draw parallels between lean and traditional martial arts. You know, they're both heavily rooted in Japan. And some styles use belts, some don't. We call our standard forms kata. And, you know, there's sometimes a bit of Eastern mysticism around both. But one difficulty that I remember having in karate, and I had it straight away when I began formally learning lean, was vocabulary. So, obviously, when you open a book on lean, you'll see, you know, genshi, gunbutsu, yamazoomi, chart, hayajunka, kanban and gamba. Yeah. And it can kind of be daunting to see all these words and think, oh, what's this mean? And I remember going to that first business improvement techniques class and some of the earlier mini kaizen events and work, and I brought a notepad, and I expected to come out with, you know, current condition, future condition, roadblocks, you know, take away actions or, you know, notes on the lean process, if it was the classroom at college. But I ended up coming out with a notepad that looked like I'd been sitting in a Japanese language lesson. You know, the words, their definitions, a phonetical pronunciation. Is it kaizen? Kaizen. Kaizen. And I kind of got bogged down. It's something that, you know, I think if I experienced it, I'm sure there's other people that experience it. And I was hesitant to join in conversations discussing improvement because my vocabulary wasn't up to scratch. And it just kind of reminded me of being a beginner in a karate class. You know, you come in and everybody's standing in their lines and the sensei yells out, you know, kazamazuki yakazuki, my giri. And you're sitting looking around at everybody else in the class to try and copy the actions and keep up because you don't know the Japanese words. But one thing we changed about karate classes to address that was we always purred the Japanese with the English. So the focus was more on the move than getting bogged down in vocabulary. And when you pair the Japanese with the English, if you shout out meigiri, front kick, you don't have to know what a meigiri is, because if you hear the word front kick, even if you don't know the action, you can kind of mimic it or what you think it is. And that's more beneficial than looking about in a panic. And I think I started focus on that myself. When I was writing out notes for Lean or when I was speaking about it with other people, I'd say, you know, and on, you know, signaling system. And I just said to keep myself right. And I began to associate the Japanese words with the phrases that come after them. Because I'll give you an example. We're discussing Yamazumi church one day, and I completely forgot what the word yamazoomi related to. I didn't know whether it was a chart or some sort of sushi dish, but they were talking about yamazoomi. And I just kept the head down and really didn't get involved in the conversation. But then when I seen it up on a PowerPoint screen, I thought, oh, that's. It's just the stack bar charts. And each little block is a piece of work, and we move them to balance it. And, oh, yeah, I know what that is. And if I had a scene at from the start, or somebody had said, okay, we're going to discuss those little charts with blocks and we're going to balance the work, I would have been able to get involved straight away. Whereas it was my own focus on vocabulary that kept me out of the conversations.

Yeah. So what do you. What's your. What's your position then on. Because, you know, there's a. There's a lot of debate out there in the lean world, you know, on using Japanese words versus, you know, English words. But what if English isn't your first language? You know what I mean? It's like, so, like, what's your take? Like, should we.

Did you.

Do you try to, like, avoid Japanese words or do you. Do you welcome them because now you know what they all mean? Or what's your. What's your position?

I don't think they should be done away with because I think some of the Japanese phrases hold more in their definitions than what a direct English translation can give. You know, if we're talking about genshi gunbutsu, it's not just, you know, you go and See, it's the whole concept behind it, and you can explain that when you explain the Japanese word. But for anyone else learning it or, you know, anybody even teaching it, you know, if it benefits them hearing it, I would just wouldn't get so bogged down in terminology. You know, the important concept is learning the thought process, learning the concepts behind them. You know, if somebody comes in and calls a yamazumi chart a zamayumi, you know, maybe take some time to correct them. But I know personally, I've had people pull me on pronunciations of kaizen versus kaizen, and, you know, it's really not beneficial. So I think the concept of having the Japanese terminology and the sort of deep philosophical definitions that go behind them that are so much more than what we can give them in English is great to have, but, you know, it shouldn't be your first focus. If they come in time, you know, through a perm like I like to do, they'll come naturally, but I wouldn't rush to learn them.

Yeah, yeah. No, I share a similar. I mean, obviously company name has a Japanese word in it, so obviously we use them. But I do. I do agree that it's super important, especially early on, that people, you know, we show respect. Right. And when. Because if you get up there and just rattle off all these. All these buzzwords, even if they're not Japanese, you know, tack time, you know, it's not Japanese, it's German, you know, And. And. But if you've never heard of tact, it's like, was it T, A, C, T or K? You know what I mean? And it's intimidating.

Right?

There's a lot. There's a lot of intimidating jargon in our movement.

Yeah, that's what I got bogged down. In another comparison, I could draw between some difficulties learning lean for myself and learning traditional martial arts is. It's a word that's been used in martial arts circles for years, and I'm beginning to see it get used more in lean circles is bullshitto. And it's kind of a combination of the word bushido, which is the old samurai warrior code of ethics, and bull crap. Something that's, you know, less than legitimate. And I know from, you know, still being in that situation where I'm, you know, I'm on Google, I'm on YouTube, I'm trying to find blogs detailing, you know, lean thinking, and you get a lot of variation, and some of it is maybe questionable. You know, if I look up, you know, the lean waste of manufacturing. Yeah, I'll get My seven wastes, I'll get it. Which, fair enough, is, you know, building steam. But I'll get, you know, someone teaching 10 wastes, 14 wastes. And I think the problem with that is it's kind of like a double edged sword because it's only really students and vulnerable people that get hit by this. You know, in martial arts, if you're a new student or you know, you're just beginning, you're kind of vulnerable because you want to get into martial arts to learn some self defense or self protection. So if you have a guy selling traditional fundamental, you know, Okinawan karate, and then you have another guy selling you, you know, get fit karate four steps or less, revolutionized for the 21st century with secret techniques that nobody else knows, you're kind of drawn the latter because it's a gamble, you know, if you choose, you know, the former, you know, more traditional approach and there is these secret moves that exist or this additional content that this sensor knows and you don't know it well, you know, you could end up in a bad situation if there's this material out there that you're not learning. And I think the same could be said for Lean. You know, if I see somebody teaching 14 wastes and I'm a naive student, I'm gonna think, well, if there's 14 and I only learned seven, I've only done half of a job and I'm not gonna be able to target the other seven. And I think the other side of it is if you're not a student, if you're a business that's quickly trying to implement Lean, you know, it's normally businesses that are kind of vulnerable, you know, they're suffering from excessive quality defects, or they're missing milestones, or they're hemorrhaging money and they get turned on to this Lean thing and they think, right, that's great, that's going to solve our problems. You know, get somebody in to do it or go learn about it, you know, assign a department to it. And you know, you could have a coach or, you know, a company saying, well, we have lean in four steps or less. You don't need to do all this standard work. You come in and we know some secret principles that were taught us by, you know, somebody in Japan who doesn't normally teach Westerners. And you can only learn them from me. And to a vulnerable company that wants the benefits of Lean, you know, they will want all the positives that come with it. These snake oil, for lack of a better word, can be really appealing. And I know as a student myself, reading into it, I fell into the same trap, you know, looking up five S's and finding three S's where, you know, the same amount could be achieved in three steps and just learn and lean, where everything's about achieving the most while, you know, carrying out the less or the least. I see. Right. Well, three S's, that's two less S's than five S. So I'm saving two S's worth of time. Teach me or three S. And, you know, it's counterproductive because you have to go back and learn the fundamentals, but, you know, there's a lot of it out there.

Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. No, no, that's really good. Yeah. 3s is an interesting one. There's a lot of guys like Paul Akers and these guys, they've kind of popularized it.

And.

And I think their point is, you know, it. Even in Japan, actually, some. Some companies actually will say it's 3s because they're doing the first three and they say we don't ever stop, so why do we need to standardize or sustain? Because we don't ever stop. You know, I kind of like. Yeah, it's kind of pushing it. They're pushing the edge a little bit. But I think that's. That's an interesting one, the 3s. One.

Yeah. You know, I'd actually only picked three as a, you know, a random number number there. I know that there is a, you know, a growing movement behind 3s, but, you know, 2s or something. Or something silly.

Yeah, no, no, 1s. 1s. You know, you just do this 1s and you're. Yeah, but wait, there's more. You know.

Yeah, that's how they're always sold. It always does come across as, you know, like an infomercial or something. And. Yeah, sure, you're part of just as many groups on LinkedIn as I am. And every time you go on LinkedIn, you know, there's a different, you know, bright and colorful diagram that's just a reimagining of the fundamentals, but with questionable elements added or removed. You know, and it's really hard for somebody that's new coming in to make.

The distinguish, you know, because you can recognize Boshito now. Right. And I probably can as well. But, you know, if you're brand new, you might not be able to. So it's scary. It's difficult. That's why I feel like it is important to surround yourself with folks who, you know, have some Experience and you know, you know, or you know, join a couple strong LinkedIn groups or whatever, you know, with some really good link thinkers out there and go to conferences and things like that and you build your network because I suppose that's really the only way to protect yourself against it in the beginning when you don't know any better yourself. Right?

Yeah, so. Well, good.

Hey, so Kieran, I'm curious. Maybe there's somebody that's listening to this that that is newer to Lean. What advice do you have? Like maybe some tips for how they might want to just kind of get started and maybe some of the lessons learned from your own journey.

Lessons learned? Well, on, just on, you know, carrying on from that topic of bullshit and some questionable, you know, concepts or teachings, I'd say that, you know, outliers are always different and different doesn't always mean good. You know, if you see multiple sources giving you one concept or one teaching and then another, that seems more appealing but differs from the rest, maybe best to stick with the majority in this. This is what I have found anyway, and I'd recommend reading around the subject, what you can pull from books that provoke that thought process. Like I was talking earlier about Jim Lancaster's book and some of the old books by Shigi Oshingo and Taichi Ono. They're written in a way where they're sort of short stories and you really get an understanding of the application of the tools rather than just a list of tools. You know, I think it's important to develop that thinking and if possible, you know, I know a lot of people who are my age are at university full time and they're not in industry yet. But I'd say, you know, try to start applying them as soon as possible because it's only really through experience that you learn how to actually use it. You know, Lean is a tool set like anything else. You know, it's a tool set like you would give a mechanic. So you could give a mechanic the most expensive $2,000 snap on toolset in the world and he could identify all of the tools within it and he could name them and say when they're supposed to be appl. But until he can put the tools in his hand and actually do a job with them, they're not much use. And he only builds that knowledge of being able to use them through experience. He only knows what tools to apply to what situations through years of experience. And there's no shortcut, there's no easy lean Master lean in four steps or less. It's just going out and doing it.

Yeah, I was just thinking to myself, we should like play a, play a joke and call this episode lean in four steps or you're money back as a joke and people have to listen all the way through to figure out what, what is this all about? I thought it was in four steps.

Man, but I think it's getting the hands on experience. As I was saying earlier, self motivated myself through a Lean Six Sigma course last year and it was, you know, an online, you know, e teaching course and it was through, you know, a pretty reputable training center here in the uk. But at the end of it you get a certification and I got some knowledge. But that certification only really proves that I did the studying and I passed the test. And yeah, you know, the real benefit comes from trying to apply those tools. You know, just getting a certification beside your name or, you know, completed the test doesn't really mean you can apply it. It means that you have the tools to then go apply.

No, 100%. No 100%. I mean, in fact, we're recording here towards the end of May and Steve Kane, one of my business colleagues, he, he wrote a blog article on, on certifications. And you know, because Gamba Academy, we offer several different certifications as well and, and real big on, you know, half of it is academic. You gotta learn some stuff, right? To your point, I gotta teach you what a hammer is and what a screwdriver is. But then the second half you're practicing, right? You're doing either a project or like our Lean Practitioner certification, you're actually practicing every tool you learn, you know, so you're literally using every tool because to your point, and we always tell people we got a lot of videos again by Academy, over a couple thousand videos now. But it's not about the video. It's like I would rather you just watch one video and then go out and do something with it, right? Because until you do something, well, first of all, you haven't really accomplished anything. I mean, getting knowledge is not bad, I guess. But if you don't ever do anything with the knowledge, what's the point, Right? So. Totally agree, 100%.

Yeah.

So anyhow. All right, well, I'll tell you what, hey Kieran, what's the best way for folks to connect with you? Social media, anything like that? Where can they connect with you?

Yeah, if anybody wants to connect with me on LinkedIn or fire me a message and strike up a conversation about anything, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. My name's just Kieran Dougall, if there's any difficulty spelling that, it'll be in the podcast title or in the notes. So don't be afraid to connect with me on LinkedIn. Send through a request.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, we'll have it.

We'll have.

We'll link everything up in the show notes. So. Yeah, it's been fun, man, and I know it's, it's getting late over there in Ireland, so thanks for giving me your Friday evening, man. You know, I appreciate that.

Yeah, no problem. Thank you, Ron.

Thanks for having confusing people because they're listening to us on a Thursday, but you know, they recorded it on Friday.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good stuff. All right, well, hey, take, take care and keep up the great work and good luck with your karate man and your Lean.

Thank you. Hopefully it'll be a black belt that you know both of them someday. There you go. There you go.

All right. All right, well, take care. Thanks, Kieran.

Thank you, Ron.

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