GA 383 | Giving and Receiving Feedback with Glade Holman

You're gonna trigger a threat response in the amygdala because guess what? My career is my sense of safety. It's how I put food on the table. You know, it's my personal identity and all that kind of gets tied up to it. And when I'm being, I'm gonna not measure up. And if I don't measure up, I'm gonna lose something. I'll lose something. I'm gonna get triggered.

Today. I'm excited to welcome Glade Holman to the show. Now folks, this is a great, great episode. I really want you to listen to this whole thing. This is not your typical kind of lean, lean top Six Sigma or anything like that conversation. It's a conversation. Glade's background is in giving people feedback and helping people receive feedback. So think like 360 feedback and different things like that over the years that many of us have probably done. And honestly going into this interview I had no idea what to expect because you know, it's not my typical guest. You know, most typical guests on here has got some Lean or background or Six Sigma, something like that. But, but boy, this one I was, I told Glade after I said I was unconsc incompetent going into this. I didn't even know what I didn't know. So I was really interested to go into it. So he goes into all different types of scenarios on how to give and how to receive feedback. And there's an art to it. In fact, he's created what he calls feedback jiu jitsu and it's. Yeah, well, I'll just let him explain it. But it sounds cool and it is cool. And so I feel like the things that he's talking about here are so applicable to those of us in continuous improvement. And really even if you weren't in continuous improvement, obviously being able to give and receive feedback is instrumental. Towards the end we get into kind of brain science and like what happens when you get, you know, so called negative feedback, what happens to your amygdala and how your prefrontal cortex shuts down and different things like that. We talked about techniques to calm down and how to, how to recenter and how to, you know, not lose your mind when you do get bad feedback. So really, really fun episode. I really enjoyed this one. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode again gembapodcast.com, look for episode 383. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Glade welcome to the show. How's it going?

Oh, great. Thanks very much for having me. I'm excited to join you in a conversation.

Yeah, man. Thanks for coming on. So where are you calling in from?

Just outside of Salt Lake City, Utah, one of our offices at Learning Bridge. So I'm excited to have a chance to share with you from there. The mountains.

Great, Great. All right. Well, Glade, as you know, we like to begin all of our episodes with our guest sharing a quot. So do you have one?

You know, I'm going to use one that we kind of use as a. Almost as a mantra here for us at Learning Bridge, and that's receive feedback graciously and act on it visibly. We've got a lot of power about that, personally, in my own life. But with our clients that we work with, too, as they look to kind of get what they want out of their careers, receive it graciously, act on it visibly. That's our mantra.

I love it. That's a great one. Well, hey, tell us a little bit about your background, Glade. Tell us about how you got into this line of work, and then tell us about Learning Bridge and what you guys are up to.

Sure. Learning Bridge kind of came out as a Genesis about 20 years ago out of consulting work that I was doing around strategic leadership. We had several organizations asking us to help them with their leadership models and making sure that that drove the conversations around development for them. And they said, can you do some 360 surveys for us and automate that? And I said, no, we can't do that. We're going to stick to our knitting, which is strategy and leadership. And I got asked that question in the period of about six months, four times. And when the fifth one asked me, I said, yes, we do that. And we started. It was different enough what we're doing that we went ahead and started the business and launched Learning Bridge. But it was really all about how do we get people the feedback they need so they can thrive in their careers. And that's been its emphasis for 20 years now. And what we're doing right now is just really trying to focus on kind of, at least in the professional development side, sometimes feedback has a bad rap. You know, I mean, it's something that hurts me. It doesn't help me. It's, you know, the performance review. I've been rated a 3, and now what do I do? Yeah, we want to focus on how do you make feedback work for you.

Oh, that's interesting, because I remember back in my corporate days, Prior to Gemba Academy, we. I remember doing a 360 evaluation, you know, and it's like, hey, your peers, like, whatever, or any of my peers or whatever, you know, and then all of a sudden it's like, whoa, my boss thinks I'm bad at whatever, you know, or something. And it is. It's interesting. And, you know, having a good facilitator that brings it back obviously makes it. Makes it work. But, yeah, it can be a daunting experience, really, depending on the feedback that you're getting.

I do think that folks, I mean, feedback for many folks is an acquired taste, you know, So I think some of us have acquired the taste for it, and so we don't really need any help with it. But others of us, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like onions. When you first experience them as a kid, they make you cry, but later on, you figure out, you saute them, they can be really good, and then eventually you like them raw again because they, you know, they bring things up. But everyone's kind of at a different spot on their receptivity to feedback and where it is. And I try and help folks that might be on the. On the downside get to the spot where, hey, this is a tool that's for me, that helps me, that is, empowers me. It's not something that I should avoid or shrink from or. Phil defines me.

Now, what about you, Glade? Do you have a background in this personally, or what's your background?

It's funny because I've kind of become a bit of this feedback specialist on how to help people accept it and act on it. Early in my career, part of my responsibility was to work with several hundred high potentials. And my assignment, and they were from different organizations across the globe, was to observe them in these, like, these managed simulations, and then also in life situations, and then give them feedback. And sometimes the feedback would be over the course of the day. And so it was a great thing to do early in my career, particularly someone who's passionate about leadership and helping people thrive in their careers, because I saw so many leaders across so many situations, sometimes the very same ones, and could draw out what mattered. But it was the ability to give them feedback that they could use that made all the difference. And I got kind of a reputation for being able to do that in a particularly. I mean, now that I reflect back on it, it was just me being me, but there was a way that I did it that actually allowed people to take Feedback that they wouldn't otherwise take. And one client, I think they. And it's unfortunate a little bit because they kind of outsourced difficult feedback to me. You know, so they have the executives that really needed to have the hard message. And, like, no one's going to tell them and say, well, do it. Let's. Let's get Glade to do it. You know, they call me the VP Whisperer because I could sit down and. And work with them and get them to take on messages that would be really helpful for them, but they would do it in a way without, you know, without feeling like they were being the wind knocked out of them.

Yeah.

So it's just something over my career I've kind of mastered or that spot or at least become pretty proficient at helping people take what really matters. Yeah. And then put in place little changes that make a difference. Got it.

Got it. So I know there's a term that you. That you. That you use, generative feedback. And I'm curious if you could just tell us a little bit about what does that mean and how does it relate perhaps, to other types of feedback?

Well, you know, I think for so many times, I go, oh, there's positive feedback or there's constructive feedback, or there's developmental feedback, or there's negative feedback, and there's all these adjectives we apply to feedback. And I'd like to just be able to erase those adjectives and replace them all with the word generative. And I believe you can make any one of those types of feedback into generative feedback. And when we talk about generative feedback, what we mean is feedback that generates more energy than it consumes and actually leads to beneficial change. I believe that you can do that with even feedback that's wrong, feedback that's off the mark. You can still make any feedback generative, whether it's fair, unfair, positive, negative, constructive, whatever adjective, Throw that out. And we're going to make every piece of feedback you get generative.

Give me an example.

Well, so let's say you get. How do you make some. Maybe a piece of feedback generative that maybe like, I'll just give you a phone. Someone says, hey, you're stubborn. Now, that is feedback. It's not delivered very well. Pretty negative. You want to respond to that, you're a jerk or something else like that. They might even say something more than they might say you're a stubborn, you know, whatever, kind of fill that out. So what could you do to make that feedback generative? And this is a technique we Talk about as well. I call it flip the chair. And that is when someone gives you feedback, whether it's true or not or on the mark or not, they're revealing something about themselves to you. And so you're often going to learn a lot more about them than you will yourself. And so if you can get up out of that chair that you feel you're being grilled in and put the giver in the chair and then say, well, what does the feedback they're giving me Tell me about them and their beliefs and their values and their expectations. And then I might be able to, after I've increased my situational awareness because now I understand them better, respond to the feedback. So when they say, hey, you're stubborn, well, what are they really saying? They're saying, I'd like to be someone that has some influence with you. And I just don't feel I have any kind of influence. I like to have influence. I like to be able to feel like I'm having an impact on people that are around me. And I might know that, yeah, I can be stubborn, particularly once I've settled into my point of view. So if I'm going to meet the need of that individual and they want to have influence on me, I'm probably going to have to engage them in conversations before I've made up my mind. So I'll loop them in earlier into the situation where they can have that. So I've taken a piece of feedback that I might want to slap somebody with and say, that's wrong. And say no. It tells me what are they telling me? They would like to have some influence, particularly with me. Well, how could I meet that need of theirs, rather than focusing on that was in artfully clumsily delivered.

Okay, so basically, if I'm hearing you right, it's sort of up to, let's say I'm stubborn, or let's say you believe that I'm stubborn, so you say, ron, you're stubborn. So it's up to me then to turn it into generative feedback, because obviously you didn't deliver it in a generative way. You gave pretty harsh feedback. Right. So it's up to the receiver, Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. I'm really glad that you brought that up because as I look to say, like, where can I have the greatest impact? Not many of us have been blessed with expert feedback givers that surround us. Even though organizations invest a lot of money in how to train people to give feedback, it doesn't often land well So I say, well, let me remove that possibility that you have really wonderful feedback around you and say, even if you don't, what can you do? So let's talk about teaching you how to receive feedback rather than teaching you how to give it. And if you can master how to receive it, I got to tell you, and if you learn these kind of techniques, you then kind of start to use those same techniques when you give it. But I prefer to start with the receiving. One, I think it's a skill that can be learned, and two, I think it's way underutilized, and that's the best thing I can do to help you, because I can't control who gives you feedback.

Yeah.

But if I'm working with you, I can help you receive it.

So if you get somebody that, you know, like, I'm thinking about my children, you know, and they're all different. You know, everybody's kids are different. And I've got some that, you know, I can go up to my son and be like, dude, what are you thinking? You know, I can be really hard on him, right? And he'll just take it and he'll accept it, and he doesn't get his feelings hurt or anything like that. But I go to my little girl, Kennedy, and I say, baby, you know, why are you doing? And then she's. Her little lip stops quivering and all the rest of it. And so, you know what I'm saying? I mean, she's young, so that's part of it. But, you know, even adults, some people take. Receive feedback differently than others. Some people have thick skin, so to speak. Right. And some people are very sensitive. So this might be easier for others than, you know, is that right? Or what do you think?

Yeah, it's definitely true. That's something I'll even talk about in terms of, like, you know, we all have a different feedback receptivity. You know what I mean? How receptive are you to feedback? And I do think it evolves over time for most people. And what I do is, like, so I start with someone who's got a low receptivity for feedback. You know, I want to start with some small wins so they get a sense of, oh, wow, this really does help. Or I want to start with, you know, hey, you know, you can't see your behavior, particularly your leadership behavior, through your eyes. You can only see it through the eyes of others. So, you know, let's. Let's. Let's get that at least agreed to, and then see what comes in. And then once you Use it for a beneficial change. They start to kind of. You can even start to, again, move from, like, someone who avoids it, you know, to, you know, twice a year is too much to me to someone who can't get enough of it.

Yeah.

Because you crave it, because you've gotten the rewards from it.

Yeah.

So that, you know, it kind of builds into it. Yeah.

Something we do here at Gamba Academy. You know, we. Over the years, myself and my. My business partners, you know, we've not always been great at. You know, we don't do, like, formal, you know, performance reviews or anything like that. You know, we're just not. We don't. That's not our style. But in the beginning, it was almost to a detriment because we thought, you know, we were doing okay giving feedback. But then, you know, we had a few, you know, employees be like, hey, man, you know, be good to hear how we're doing and this and that. And we're like, well, we thought, you know, you were doing great or whatever, but, you know, we assumed so now we actually do. Every quarter, we just sit down, we do sort of like a little SWAT deal, you know, and the employee sort of fills it out. Then we kind of. It's more of a conversation, and it is a form. Right. And just giving. Having that. That frequent conversation back and forth. And sometimes it's like, hey, you know, such and such. You need to work on this. What do you think? Do you agree? You know, and just having that, that. That communication back and forth on a pretty frequent basis, you know, is very, very helpful. It's been very good for us.

Well, I'm certain you. You've learned some. Some skills. Right. In how to receive and not to push back and to challenge and to be curious and explore rather than to judge and to give it space. And not everybody comes prepared to do that or knows how to do that.

Yeah.

Because feedback feels very personal.

Yeah.

And sometimes it feels like an attack. When it feels like attack, I push back.

Yep.

And so how do you get them in the right frame? You guys have got it into the right frame. You know, this is about, you know, something in the future of how we can work our way into something better than where we are now. And that's why we're having the conversation.

Yeah.

It's not to establish blame or to challenge somebody.

So. Okay, this is the question I've been waiting to ask you, because I'm truly interested in hearing the answer. Is something that you promote is called feedback. Jiu jitsu. What in the heck is that all about? Because it's got an awesome name, I can tell you that.

Well, that's basically says that feedback is a combat art. No, no. Yeah, you're gonna choke people out.

Take their back and check them out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, There you go. That's that. No, we turned that because we talk about feedback receiving, right? So not necessarily giving. So that's why I want to hit that feedback. Jiu Jitsu, if you look at the origins of Jiu jitsu, it came about as a response to the samurai warrior, right? And that samurai warrior obviously has the best of everything, right? Best blade, best shield, best training, best resources. How could you, as a peasant, ever hope to go up against a samurai warrior and come out on top? Well, you couldn't if you tried to meet him sword for sword or force for force. But you could if you took the energy that was coming towards you, worked with that energy, grappled with it at close quarters, manipulated it into position where you came out in a spot on top or in some advantage across the board. So if you Jew that Jew word in jiu jitsu. Jitsu is art or technique. The Jew can be translated as gentle or pliable, flexible. And so it's like, wait a second, I'm always associating jitsu with violence, but yet here it is. It's a gentle, pliable, flexible art. And so it really says, how do I take feedback? Like someone with Jiu jitsu, regardless of the energy behind it, positive or negative, and then grapple with it manipulated at close terms, and then come out on top of it in a position of benefit. And so rather than to meet it strength, restraint, or head to head or force to force, I'm going to take that understanding of grappling with it at a close quarters and using the energy behind it to find a way to turn it to my benefit. Just as I used that example before, that's an example of, hey, I'm going to take whatever, even negative, maybe malicious feedback. I'm going to find a way to turn that and manipulate it to my benefit rather than to hit it face on. I'm going to manipulate it first, transform it into something that will be useful to me. Yeah.

So, like, I've coached youth sports for many, many years, and my favorite is to coach football. So I'm coaching these boys, you know, in football and high school boys, and, you know, it's pretty intense and can be pretty. Can be pretty emotional at times. And something that I'm curious to get your. Your feedback on this and how you think I'm doing as a coach. So like something that I always tell my boys is, you know, when you make a great play, you know, go, it's okay to celebrate, but don't get too high. And when you make a bad play and you're going to, you know, don't get too low, play in the middle. And so like my, you know, even my son, I've coached him for years, you know, since he's a little guy and, and I'll just, you know, I'll just tell him before a game play in the middle, you know. And you know, it does seem to help them kind of just kind of control their, their emotional state. Right. So I'm curious, like, how does that play into something like feedback Jiu jitsu? Is there a role for controlling your emotions? What do you think?

Well, you know, absolutely. You know, I'll spin off on this as something different a little bit and address that your thing there directly. When you say, does it play into your emotions? Well, obviously when you get a piece of maybe in artfully delivered, maybe even maliciously intended feedback that often will spark a fight flight response in you. Right? We know the amygdala that sits right above the brainstem, you know, views everything in the world that's not familiar as a threat. And unfortunately, feedback often gets viewed as a threat. And so it puts you into a fight flight response. And at that point, when you're in fight flight response, at that point the blood is going to your limbs, your heart, everything to get you run to survive another day, and it just drains out of your prefrontal cortex where your ability to reflect and learn is. And so if you're in a feedback setting and you get triggered by the amygdala because you view it as an attack or it views it as an attack. Right. I mean it got first bite at the apple because it's right above the brainstem, the prefrontal cortex is drained of blood and then, you know, you're left with an emotional reaction rather than your best self reflecting and learning. So you want to avoid the trigger, the amygdala in that environment. That's a little bit different than what you said. Hey, I just made a great one. Let me celebrate. That's awesome. Or oh my goodness, I just got taken down. That's horrible. But it does say when we are in an overly charged emotional state, we don't have access to our prefrontal cortex, where all that reasoning and learning and even the core personality is. So you want to Find a way to. So when you're saying play it in the middle, you're kind of saying, hey, let's keep the blood flow in the front of the brain, not just going to the limbs in the heart so that you can work and learn from it, because that's the only place you can work and learn from it. So I think when you're saying that to your son, you're saying it's great, it's wonderful, but actually I've got a bigger goal. I want you to win the game. Not just that. And I need you to keep your head in the game, you know, fully thinking, not just give in to that emotion of it. Because we want to win the game and actually we want to win the season. Yeah. So it's kind of longer term view that you're bringing.

Oh, I love it. Brain science is fascinating to me. If I ever had a different career, it would have been that, you know, because thinking about, you know, like you said, your reptilian brain kicks in, man. It's like, you know, there's no more thinking. Right. You're not thinking. The problem is with these young boys, they say that the prefrontal cortex isn't developed in these kids until they're like 23 years old.

And, you know, I'm not sure mine is as well, but certainly there are some times when I lose access to it. But I remind myself that, and that's where I'll work with someone and say, what happens? I'm triggered. Now what do I do? And it's like, well, they want to be able to flip the switch and just be okay. And it's like, well, guess what? It's biology. There's no blood in the prefrontal cortex. You don't have oxygen. There's the only thing you can do is buy yourself time. And so you say something like, thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate it. I can tell it's really important. I'd like to take a little bit of time to think about that. Thank you so much. I don't have to communicate. I agree or it's fair or whatever. I just have to buy myself time to let the blood flow re establish. And unfortunately, you can start that, by the way, you can start the recovery in as little as 90 seconds if you don't re trigger the amygdala. Yeah, the amygdala triggers the first time because it's what the, you know, it got it before the prefrontal cortex, but oftentimes the prefrontal cortex re triggers it.

Yeah, this is, I don't know, I had no idea, I was going to ask this, but it just popped in my mind and I don't know if you have any experience with it, but. And it's a little, might be for people listening a little bit like Ron's little woo woo.

I don't know.

But like I'm real big into, into breathing and something that I do personally, I do a couple different types of breathing. There's this guy, Wim Hof, they call him the Iceman, you know, and, and he has this deal where he basically hyperventilates for 30 breaths and in and out, in and out, in and out, and then you leave it all out. And then it, it supposedly does all kinds of good things for your immune system and all the rest of it. But, but the one that, that helps me relax is something that I believe the Navy SEALs may have developed. And it's box breathing, you know, where you kind of breathe in through your nose for seven seconds, you hold it for seven seconds or, or whatever time period you want and then you let it out for seven seconds and then you leave it out for seven seconds. So you're basically drawing this box. And anytime I get stressed, or even in the morning, morning when I first wake up, sometimes I'll just, I'll box breathe for a minute or two and it really just, I don't know, sets my mind. Right. So is there, what do you think about that when you're getting feedback, like finding ways like that to just calm yourself down?

Well, you're, you're absolutely right. And it's not woo woo. Right. I mean, if you want to talk about regular people, slow down, take a breath. I count to 10. Yeah. So that's why we talk about it. But you're, you're, you, you're, you've already tagged into the part. Your breathing mechanism is almost like a remote control for your brain. And if you can change your breathing, you can change the response that happens there and you can start to reset the amygdala. So when you focus on that breathing, you're taking your attention away from whatever triggered you, whatever that stress is. That reigniting of the amygdala stops. I'm like, I just do something as simple. So breathing is perfect. Taking that deep breath. I had the challenge to work with this fellow who was in the C suite, but he had some real problematic behaviors. I mean, some people might just say he was a jerk in a sense. He wasn't in fight flight mode all the time. He was in fight mode all the time. Emails were all caps, everything was flat back. And it just. And he's senior enough in the organization that no one would push back against him and is like, how do you work with this? And it's true. He always responded or reacted from a position that I would see as fight flight and the amygdala being in charge, not the prefront cortex. And so I said, hey, hey, look, Paul, let's just do this. The next time you get that email or we're sitting in the room and something happens and you want to react with a response, I want you to just take your watch, look at it, and watch the hand go around one time and then watch it go around 1/2 away again and then respond. Because if you can, the science shows that in as little as 90 seconds, you can start to send out neurotransmitters and hormones to calm down, to calm the fight flight response and start the flow of the blood back to the prefrontal cortex. Now, it might take 20 minutes for it to complete, but that 90 seconds can. So your breathing exercise is doing exactly that.

Yeah.

You're taking your attention away from retriggering it and you're allowing yourself to refocus and then you're going to keep the oxygen where you want it. Yeah. So it's not woo at all. That's science.

Okay, cool, cool. So how did you come up with this feedback Jiu jitsu? Like, what's the story, the backstory? Because it's pretty awesome.

Yeah, well, you know, I think it started from like, what I said. I realized that I couldn't help people get good feedback givers. And so I needed to help people deal with the feedback that came at them from wherever it came from, however it came from, whatever intention it came. And so that's when the idea popped into. That's a little bit like, you know, I have sons that wrestle and they do Jiu jitsu and stuff, but I really like that notion of work with the momentum, roll with it and grapple it and come out on top of regardless of where it's coming from, even if it appears that they're in a position of power and authority that's way, way above your pay grade, you can still learn that skill. So it was just an insight that said, that's great. That's exactly what I'm talking about here. And I want people to say, I can whatever that feedback coming my way. There's nothing big and scary about it. I can actually work with it and grapple with it. And we talked about six feedback, you know, jujitsu moves that you can use to turn anything back to you. And plus a bonus move, you know, like, this is how I can take that person like your daughter, who's so super sensitive, to get her to be someone like your son who says, give it to me straight, dad. Slap me in the face with it.

Give us a principle or two, because I'm really curious.

Yeah, sure. The first one is this. And it's kind of fundamental. You'll recognize it. And I think it does apply, interestingly to lean and six Sigma to some degree. But when you receive feedback, particularly in a professional setting, usually it's coming to you from a framework of measure and assess, right? And so you think of, like, everything we do in lean and six Sigma, right? There's a lot of measurement and a lot of assessing and you're doing down, down to decimal. But when feedback comes to you around your personhood and around your career, and it's in measure, in assess, you're going to trigger a threat response in the amygdala. Because guess what? My career is my sense of safety. It's how I put food on the table. You know, it's my personal identity and all that kind of gets tied up to it. And when I'm being, I'm going to not measure up. And if I don't measure up, I'm going to lose something. I lose something, I'm going to get triggered. So the framing that comes for feedback in the world around development often comes from measure and assess, which triggers the amygdala. The first move to say, never let it be about measure and assess. Always make it be about grow and improve. Now, I know with lean and six Sigma and that it's always about growing and improving, but it starts with the measure and assess. But when it comes to your personal development and your career development, just leave measure and assess framing behind and translate everything into the language of learn and grow, grow and improve. So, you know, so you don't talk about weakness. I'm not someone that says, oh, no, you have to hide from weakness. No, it's like, where do I want to grow? Where do I want to improve? Because if I can stay in that growth mindset, which has a focus, you know, kind of forward, I'm going to do a really good job of keeping the prefrontal cortex engaged and not the amygdala. So the first move is become an expert in translation. So when someone gives you stuff that's coming from the language of Measure and assess. You translate it in your own mind to grow and improve. And everybody wants to grow and improve. That's part of human nature. Just like the fight flight response is. That's why you pick up a book. It's why you renovate your house. If you can't grow and improve on the job, you find a way to do it outside the job. And if you can't do there, you find a new job. It's. And it's part of our core, core person is to want to grow and improve. So first move is learn the language of growth and improvement and be expert at translating the language from measure and assess. So I kind of growth mindset, fixed mindset, kind of analogy that you might be very familiar with.

Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. I love it. Wow. This is really. I mean, I suppose we could talk about this all day, but fundamentally, I want to learn more. So, like, how do I learn more?

You know, I'm passionate about this stuff one, because I think it's so underutilized and can be so personally beneficial to folks. So I'm always happy to engage in a conversation. You can certainly find me on LinkedIn. You know, Glade Holman right there, Learning Bridge. You could also find us on our. On our website at. Learning Bridge. But I am.

Have you written a book or anything?

You know, there are. We have. I do have one that's not quite ready yet, but it's there. It's exciting because I can't tell you the receptivity that we've had to this and the difference that it's made for folks because it puts the ability of your career in your control. And sometimes when you receive feedback, it feels like you're being removed from the driver's seat. Right. You're being dictated to do something. And I want to keep you in the driver's seat when it comes to your career and have you use feedback to benefit you rather than, you know, the organization using it to limit you or to promote you. Now you're the one that does it. And we did. I did work with probation officers, and you want to talk about, you know, interesting feedback. What kind of feedback does a probation officer give to a parolee?

Yeah.

And how do they proceed? Preserve that right to control with that parolee. Yeah. So there's. The idea is powerful. I'd always be happy to engage in conversation with it.

Great. Great. Well, so what we'll do is we'll. We'll link to you your LinkedIn and our show Notes page and also to your website and any other links that you have. Glade so folks can go to GembaPodcast.com this is episode 383 and man, this has been a lot of fun. Glade I didn't. I wasn't sure what to expect with this one, to be honest with you. But it's really turned out great and I'm genuinely interested in your work. So keep it up and maybe we'll have you on again down the road and we'll tell some more feedback stories.

Would love that. Thanks for the opportunity. Always like to share.

Awesome. All right, take care. Thanks Clay. Thanks for listening. Whether you've been on the continuous improvement journey for many years or perhaps you're just getting started, Gemba Academy is here to support you. And while we're best known for our more than 1500 Lean and Six Sigma teaching and virtual tour videos, we also have a team of experienced Lean and Six Sigma practitioners available for one on one coaching as well as a variety of Lean and Six Sigma certification options. To learn more and to schedule a demo, head on over to gembaacademy.com.