GA 402 | Leading From the Jumpseat with Peter Docker

When we become comfortable leading, when we don't know the answer, we instead focus on holding the space where our people can figure out the solutions that we need. And we start to tap into what I call the collective genius of our team today.

I'm excited to welcome Peter Dawker to the show. Now, Peter, as you'll hear early in the podcast, spent 25 years with the Royal Air Force, and then he spent another 14 years or so up until present day working with different businesses around the world. And Peter has written a book called Leading from the Jump Seat. And so he plays on his experience as a pilot and talks about different leadership characteristics, which, you know, for many people listening to this, we've. We've all read a lot of leadership books, but I dare say that this. This approach, I feel like, is. Is very unique, especially with Peter's authentic background. Many writing leadership folks, no offense to them, but they might not have done the things that Peter has done and experienced the things that Peter has experienced. So it's a really, really good episode. It's a little bit longer than normal, so I would encourage you to really listen to it in a few different sittings if you need to. But the things that he's talking about are fully and 100% aligned with what we lean thinkers are trying to practice on a daily basis. So really, really fun episode. I really enjoyed it. So links show notes can be found over at G. Just look for episode four. 02 again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 402. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Peter, welcome to the show. How are you?

Hi, Ron. I'm fabulous. Thanks very much. It's a delight to be with you on your show.

All right, well, where are you calling in from, Peter?

Well, today I'm at home, which is in England. I live about an hour's drive west of Oxford, the city famous for its university.

Beautiful, Beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I've been to England many times, and I remember. It was. Well, I remember where you were, London or something, walking through and there was like these. These steps or whatever. I was like, those things are thousands of years old and it's like. There's like nothing in America. Thousands of years old. Maybe some dirt down deep or something, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. So much history. So much history. Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. Well, Peter, I'm really excited to. To have you on. We've. We had a nice chat here before we hit record on book, and so I want to dive deep into that, but before then, we do like to begin with our guest sharing a quote. So do you have one?

Sure. I've got lots of leadership quotes. The one that I'll go with is one that comes into my mind immediately, which is people forget what you say, they'll forget what you do, but they'll remember how you made them feel. And that's, as people know from Mayor Angelo. And I've used that quote many times, and I've thought about it many times throughout my leadership journey in different situations. So people always remember how you made them feel. I love it.

I love it. Well, Peter, tell us a little bit about your background. I mean, I know what your background is as I've done some research on you, and it's pretty impressive. So why don't you just kind of catch up the audience on what you've done in the past and then what you're up to these days?

Sure. So for 25 years, Ron, I was in the Royal Air Force. I was a pilot. I was a senior officer. I flew mainly large aircraft, and I led people during the 2003 Iraq War. 200 people out in Saudi Arabia flying large unarmed aircraft, refueling U.S. and U.S. navy fighter jets, and also our own, of course. I have taught at the Defense College here in the UK on leadership. I've been a negotiator with Russia when the Berlin Wall came down. I've negotiated export licenses for equipment with your secretary of State Department or State Department, all sorts of things. But then after I left the Air Force, my last job in the Air Force was running a $20 billion program. So project management, that was large for me then that was a big thing for me. But then on leaving the Air Force, I joined a consultancy. I worked around the world in oil and gas construction, mining, places where people typically get killed or injured, actually. And our role was to help those organizations lead in such a way that everyone went home safe. I did that for about three years and then moved on. And some people I'm sure, listening to the show will know of the guy. Simon Sinek and I worked with Simon for about eight years. I was what we might call a founding igniter, and together with David Mead and Simon, wrote Find you'd why, which was the follow on to start with why. And that was a wonderful experience, helping you take that message around the world. And then in December 2019. So, yeah, just about two years ago, David and I took a step back from Simon to develop some of our own material and ideas. And for me, what that looked like was this book that you've mentioned, which is called Bleeding from the Jump Seat, which is a collection of all of the leadership lessons and techniques I've learned throughout that career that I've just, well, many careers that I've just skimmed over in the last few minutes. So, yeah, that's what it's about.

What was the most. And there's probably only so much you can say on a public podcast, but I'm curious, what was one of the most intense moments of your military career?

One of the most intense moments was the first night of the Iraq war in 2003, where I saw off 40 young men and women in large air refueling aircraft, totally unarmed, undefended. Pretty sure I wouldn't see them all back. And even now, you know, this part of 20 years later that, as I just say that to you, Ron, that, that grabs me. Yeah, you know, that was, that was pretty tough. But, well, cut the chase there. We were over four and a half months. We were tasked with 479 missions in this aging aircraft that we flew. And we flew 479 missions.

Wow.

But the most important thing for me is everyone who I took out there, I brought back. And that, that was the greatest thing. So, yeah, that was, I think that was one of my biggest challenges in a formal leadership role because I deeply cared for my people. And it's very humbling when you see your people willingly step up and put themselves in harm's way. Not for any. It wasn't about the politics. The politics back then for that particular conflict were pretty, yeah, messy in some ways. You know, the. There were lots of protests in cities around the States, the uk, France, and that's pretty unsettling as a military guy, you know, because, well, you want to feel that your, your population, your home nation is behind you, not to read the headlines every day saying we shouldn't be doing what we're doing. And I had to find, find the signal amongst the noise. In other words, I had to find the one thing that brought my people together so as they could focus on doing what they needed to do. And I remember the day before the combat started, we had a photograph of the whole deployment. I had the best part of three squadrons. We have a photograph in front of the aircraft here on the aircraft dispersal. And the photograph had been saying, I thought I got to say something. I didn't know what I was going to say. But I gathered everybody around me in like a big donut with me in the center. And I turned to my engineers, the technicians who kept these aircraft flying I said, guys, your job is to ensure at least 40 year old aeroplanes. We don't have enough spares. I know conditions out here are terrible, but your job is to ensure that every one of these aircraft is serviceable, ready for the air crew to fly them. I then turned to the pilots, the air crew and said, guys, your job is to fly every mission that we're given. Yeah, you've got to refuel those fighter jets. Because unless we refuel those fighter jets, our people wearing American and British uniforms on the ground aren't going to get the air cover they need and they're going to die.

Yeah.

And it was as simple as that. And yeah, sorry, I expanded a little bit more than you probably expecting there, Ron. But yeah, that was.

Thank you for sharing that. So I want to circle back to your quote that you opened up the show with and talking about how you make people feel. What was your intention that moment before you set those, those young folks out? Like, what did you want them to feel like from a leadership perspective? What was your, your goal there in that moment? I'm assuming that the young people, your, your, your team, they were scared and nervous and anxious and maybe all of it together, right?

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And the scared and anxious bit, include that, include me with that as well. I'll come back to that because that's got an important leadership aspect to it. What I wanted them to feel was connected to their mission, their cause. When I said pull the signal out of all the noise, you know, the noise in this case with a. The news reports, the headlines, the political debates, what people back home thought, that's all the noise. But you've got to get. I believe one of the rules of leadership is to cut through that noise and pull up the signal where people can find focus. I didn't want them to be thinking about all those other things because that could ultimately put their lives at risk because their mind wouldn't be on the job, I wanted them focus on their mission. And it's been said many times by others, but you know, when military people go into combat, you're fighting for the guys to the left of you and the guys to the right of you. And I didn't strip those words. I said to them, I just allowed somebody to come out. And I'm lucky that those words were the ones I found. So yeah, I wanted them to feel focused on their mission and also I wanted them to feel I had their back. And when people feel that their senior person's got their back, in other words, my Time was totally focused on ensuring that. As far as it was within my capacity, I ensure that they had everything they needed to do their job. I was in service of them, which is, I guess, service leadership, isn't it? But it's about lifting them up and giving them the space they needed so they could figure out the challenges or the answers to the challenges that we're facing. And it comes back to the feeling thing, because one of the themes in the book is one of the practices of jump seat leadership is to nurture a sense of belonging. When people feel that they belong and they know how they fit into the team or, well, family. It's the same for parents, to be honest, Ron. Then they choose to step up, they choose to take responsibility and move forward. And in other words, they start to lead themselves, too. And so we need to nurture that sense of belonging. And the way we do that is to show that we care. This goes beyond empathy. It's shown that we care, and we do that by showing a genuine curiosity in our people. No matter how busy I was during that Iraq war, I would find time on a daily basis to sit down, perhaps with all the most junior people over a cup of coffee in the middle of the desert and check in. How are you doing? How's family at home? Everything all right? Have you got everything you need? What's one thing that we could change which would make your job easier? And when you do that, people know that as a senior person, you're going to be busy. So time is the most precious resource we have. So when you give some of that time up genuinely to listen with curiosity to your people, it shows that we care and that nurtures that sense of belonging. And that's when they start to step up and apply themselves, give discretionary effort. I do more than they're contracted to do. That's the key to it.

So the name of your book is really interesting title, Leading from the Jump Seat. So I'm no pilot, I'm not an expert on aviation by any means, but I do know enough that I believe in most airplanes, there's three folks up there, right? There's the pilot, there's a co pilot, and then I believe the jump seat is in the back, isn't it?

Well, close. So most large aircraft, passenger jets, the sort that we fly on holiday on, as you said, there's the two pilot seats, the captain and the co pilot or the first officer. But then often there's a third seat, which is usually empty, but it's immediately behind those two Pilots, you know, if you sat in that seat, you can reach and touch the pilots on your shoulder. You're that close. And the name of the book Leading from the Jump Seat comes from an experience I had when I was in the Air Force. I was a senior pilot, senior officer, and I was just doing the final certification of this guy Callum, who'd gone from being a first officer over to being a captain. And he'd spent about six months doing his training, and his last check was for me to sit alongside him as we flew from the UK over to Washington Dulles, and then on to San Fran. And it was a final check. And as many folks will know, San Fran is a very busy airport. Maybe not quite as busy as DFW down the road from you, but nonetheless, it's pretty busy. And Callum flew the approach. He did a great job. And we touched down, taxied in, shut down the aircraft. I said, callum, fantastic job. You're signed up, you're fully certified. It's a great moment, actually. So we're going to stop here the night. Then tomorrow you've got a regular first officer. I want you to have him as a crew, fly us back to Washington. I'll be down the back with the rest of the 140 passengers. So that was the setup. We came back the following morning, and Callan came to me and said, sir, he said, because I was his senior. Senior boss, and that's how you address folks in the military. He said, look, it's really busy during rush hour here in San Fran. He said, can you come and sit on the jump seat for the taxi and departure, just to act as an extra pair of eyes to watch out for other aircraft and whatever, make sure we go the right way, et cetera. I said, yes, Canada, of course. I thought it was a very courageous decision on his part because he just got the monkey off his back. He just got me off his back after being checked and certified. But no, he was in service of the safety of the aircraft, and it made sense to have an extra pair of eyes looking out. So I sat in that jump seat and strapped in and we tacked it out, and it was finally our turn to get airborne, and we thundered down the Runway, left the ground, and around about 3 or 400ft above the ground, we hit severe turbulence. Now, if you're up at 35,000ft, severe turbulence is very unpleasant, but you're going to be okay down at 3 or 400ft above the ground, there's a very real possibility you're going to hit the ground, and there was Callum wrestling with the controls. Now, the point of this story is what I then chose to do as the most senior pilot, most experienced pilot on that aircraft in the next two seconds, would dictate whether we survived or not. And this is what I did. Absolutely nothing. I sat there with my hands in my lap, perfectly calm, because I knew that Callum could get us out of that situation. He'd been trained. Heck, I'd signed him up the day before to fly that aircraft with 140 people on board anywhere in the world. If I had to intervene, then I had no business signing him up. All I needed to do in that moment was not to be a leader, but to become a great follower. For Callum, to feel. It's back to that word again, to feel that I had his back, to sense that and to stay out of his way so as he could do his job. That gave me the notion for this book, Ron. Because you know what? We all take a step back eventually. It's inevitable. If we're the CEO of a company or a team leader and we shift teams, or even as a parent, our kids grow up, leave home, start to lead their own lives, it's inevitable that at some stage we hand over control. Leading from the jump seat is all about recognizing that and leading intentionally to prepare our people to take over control, to lift them up, to give them that space where they can grow, to equip them. So after we've handed over control, they can carry on forward, those things that we feel are most important to us. And that is what leading from the jump seat is all about.

Okay, so here's a tough one. You're in that situation is a gentleman's name. Callan. Is that right? Callan. Okay, so Callan is. You're fairly empowering him and you trust him to do his job. It hits the turbulence, and let's say, hypothetically, you're watching his behavior. Okay, I'm just talking tactically, flying an airplane, okay? And I don't know, you're supposed to steer a certain way or whatever. What if he started to go and he panics and he starts doing things incorrectly? Like, just tactically, like he lets loose of the. The steering wheel. I don't know, he does something ridiculously wrong. As the jump seat pilot, would you then engage or.

You know what I mean?

Like, if he's doing things. If he's doing it incorrectly, how do you sit? How do you do it then? How do you lead from the jump seat at that point?

Well, you know, we're talking probabilities here. He could have had a heart attack, he could have collapsed, all these sorts of things. And then, you know, that's a different situation. But the point is, Ron, we'd equipped him training to deal with these situations. That's the most important thing. Quite often, I find in business we can shove people into roles where we haven't equipped them. A classic. A classic I see time and time again is when someone who's very good at their job, so they're a computer programmer, they've been hired because they're a brilliant programmer, but then after some years, they are then promoted and they're no longer the computer programmer, they're taking care of the computer programmers. And yet we give them no training to do that. And then that situation, they can crash and burn. But let me give you another example, another true story, which is a flying one, but it relates, you can see how it crosses over as a metaphor for business. I was in the captain's seat and I had a fairly junior first officer with me. We were flying into Gander in Newfoundland over on the east coast there, and the weather was pretty turbulent. It wasn't pleasant. And the first officer, this guy John, he was flying it. And you've got to get experience, you know, because otherwise, if pilots don't get experience when they become a captain, they haven't got that experience to fall back on. So he was flying it. Now, when you fly an approach to a big airport, you have four lights near the threshold where you touch down on either side the Runway. These are called PAPPEs, Precision Approach Indicators, and they can shine either red or. Now, when you see two red and two white lights as the pilot, that means you're on the exact correct angle of approach. If you see three white lights and one red, you're going too high. If you see three red and one white, you're going too light low. If you see four red lights, you're going way too low and it's dangerous to continue. Okay, so John started this approach and he had two red lights, two white. Good job on the correct angle of approach. But then I saw three red lights and one white. So he's going low. So I called out, I said, below the glide slope, which is the call that you make at that point, John should have put on a little bit of more power from the engines and that would have corrected the situation, but he didn't. So he continued to go low, and I could see it starting to go into four red lights. So I called again below the glide slope. He didn't take any action, but instead of taking control, what I did was I nudged the throttles of the engines, nudged them forward a little bit, calling out as I did so, and that was enough to correct us onto the two red, two white lights, blind slope, and we landed without further incident. Now what do we learn from that, from a leadership perspective? We will be in a situation often in any business when we've handed over control to somebody else who should have had the appropriate training, but they're not performing as we would like. And if they start to make errors, then we need to let them know and give them a chance to correct it. But if they don't correct it and we have to intervene, we need to know when to intervene. And I call that the four red lights moment. And the four red lights moment is the point at which if you allow the situation to go beyond that, you, with your experience, you're not going to be able to recover that situation. But even then, you have a choice. You have a choice to turn that into a spiral up moment or a spiral down moment. What I mean by that is you could turn it into a spiral down moment. And with John, I could have grabbed control from him, I'd have pricked his balloon of confidence and it would probably take him six months to recover. But I chose a spiral up moment and that was to intervene to the minimum required to address the situation, to still allow him to have control and then to talk about it later after the event. Yeah, and he continued to spiral. The really neat thing, Ron, is that here we are, 20 plus years later, my son is a pilot in the Royal Navy over here. And when he was going through his training, he came home one day and he said, hey, Dan, he said, I met a guy today, one of the instructors who remembers you. I saw. Yeah, who's that? He said, it's John. And it turns out I didn't say this to my son, but it turns out it was four red lights John.

Oh, wow.

And four red lights John, as I call it, had gone on. He'd become a qualified flying instructor. He had progressed over the years and had helped others. And unbeknownst to me, it actually helped my son during his training as a pilot. So, you know, this is the thing. When we see people making a mistake, ask ourselves, what's the minimum intervention I need to make? Does it really matter? Do I let them make that mistake? But above all, think, I want to turn this into a spiral up moment rather than spiral down, because that can create Payback way into the future beyond what you might imagine. Just. It did when I suddenly realized that he'd gone on to become an instructor training my own son.

Wow.

It's amazing.

That's amazing. When I'm thinking about your four red light scenario or your situation, they're thinking about you mentioned earlier, parenting kids, you know, I mean, with your children, right, there's going to be moments to where a you're about to crash, but you might allow them, you know, if you know that's not going to have some devastating recourse. Right. But at the same time, you may, you may push on the throttle a little, as you say, Right. Just to give them some lift and then teach them.

Yeah. And I mentioned parenting in the book, Ron, and that's through no accident because I think for the majority of us or many people in the world, parenting is one of the most challenging leadership jobs that we have. I remember the first day. I mean, she's 30 now, but I remember the first day we brought our firstborn home, Louise, our daughter. Did we know what to do? No. Were we totally committed? You betcha. Were we going to figure out how to be a parent? Of course we were. Did we get it right all the time? No. But our intent was true throughout and still is. They've now left home and are leading their own lives, but they know they still belong. And knowing that we have their backs as parents, that we've got our kids backed, allows those children of ours to continue to push forward, to go to the edge of their comfort zone, to try things, perhaps to fail occasionally, but to get up again, carry on. It's exactly the same as it is in business.

You're in their jump seat, right?

Hopefully. Yeah.

So in the book, and we've touched on some of these already, but there's three main themes. Commitment, humble confidence and belonging to. I would like to talk a little bit about the third one, belonging. Talk a little bit about what that is and why that's important to leadership.

Well, we've touched on that a little bit already. A sense of belonging is a very, very powerful thing indeed. If people, first of all don't feel that they belong, it's very unlikely they're going to feel engaged. In other words, it's very unlikely that they're going to, well, want to pitch up to work each day and contribute. And all we can do is create an environment where people have the opportunity to feel they belong. In other words, to know how to allow them to figure out how they can fit in, how they can contribute. And when we do that, it engenders something called taking responsibility. Taking responsibility is very different from accountability. We can give accountability, but individuals themselves are the only ones who can take responsibility. And it's a choice. So here's again a parent example, actually. When our kids were young, we lived at one time in this quiet neighborhood and they would play outside on the street with the neighbor's kids. You know, and if we saw a car coming and it was quiet, so that was rare. But if we saw a car coming or a stranger, we would go outside and we would take care of our own kids because we had accountability as their parents. But we also chose to take responsibility for our neighbors kids as well. That was a choice, not a requirement. That was a choice. And we did that because we felt we belonged to that community and we wanted to contribute to that community. Put that into a business context. If we're running a business which is based purely on accountability, that is, people have got their KPIs, which are important, but they've got their contract, they signed up to deliver. We are holding people to accounts, and that will get us. It will get us so far. But we'll probably have to be on people's backs a lot of the time to make sure they deliver. However, when people feel that they belong, they have the opportunity to choose to take responsibility. That's when people are stepping forward to say, hey, look, I know it's not immediately in my area, but I can see something over there where there's a challenge, a problem. I can see a solution. I want to contribute to that. Or, you know what, I'm going to stay a bit later tonight because I really want to tie a bow on this project that we're working on, my part of it. I'll speak up in this meeting, even though it's a bit scary because there are perhaps more experienced people around me in this meeting. But I'm going to put my hand up because I think I might have seen something that they haven't. And even if I'm wrong, that's okay. I'm going to have the courage to put my hand up. So it's a very powerful thing, choice in an organization. And when it's aligned with responsibility, when people are choosing to take responsibility, that's when your organization really starts to fly. No pun intended, but that's when people are choosing to lead themselves rather than waiting for you as a senior person to tell them what to do. That's a very different organization.

So to wrap things up, Peter, I've been saving this for the end because it's one of my favorite. I don't call it a story, but real life situations. And it just fascinates me. The more I learn about it is Apollo 13. So I know that you've talked about it in the past. And what can we learn from Apollo 13 as it relates to leadership?

Well, I'm delighted you brought that up, actually, Ron, because the great thing about the story of Apollo 13 is that Hollywood does a great service. Ron Howard produced a film in 95, I think it was called Apollo 13. And it's a very accurate portrayal of what happened back in 1970. And as many people know, Apollo 13 was part of the Apollo program, the 60s and 70s. And by the time Apollo 13 came along, moonshots or putting people on the moon had become almost routine and people had kind of lost interest. But Apollo 13 launched on the 13th day of April 1970. It was about two thirds of the way to the moon. And they had an explosion in the command module, the main part of the spacecraft. And it blew out the side panels. It took out components of their propulsion system. Oxygen, life support, energy, fuel. It was a total mess, really. And here they are still hurtling towards the moon. At the time, in Mission Control, Houston Mission Control was a guy called Gene Krantz. He was the mission controller, 32 years old at the time, just 32, Vietnam vet. He was a pilot. And he was faced with this situation that no one could have predicted and no one knew how to solve. But what Gene Kranz did, he became a great jump seat leader. He gathered all of his people together rather than trying to solve the problem himself. And often as leaders, we think it's up to us to come up with the answer. But instead of taking that approach, he gathered his people together. And he very clearly painted what I call a picture on the box, like a jigsaw puzzle. He painted that picture and said, look, our mission is no longer to get a couple of astronauts on the surface of the moon. Our mission is solely to get these three guys home safe. That's it. Go away and figure out how to do it. When people have read my book, if they want to see everything I've written about actually in action, then Apollo 13 is a great way of seeing it all come together. I use it in workshops as well as an example. But coming back to Gene Kranz and being a sort of leader who needs to know the answer, if we're that sort of leader, the progress of our team is limited by our own Knowledge, we become the constriction in the pipe. But the opportunity that I talk about as a jump seat leader is to become comfortable leading when you don't know the answer. And instead of seeing that situation as a flaw or an embarrassment or a weakness, to see it as an opportunity and a strength. Because when we become comfortable leading when we don't know the answer, we instead focus on holding the space where our people can figure out the solutions that we need. And we start to tap into what I call the collective genius of our team. And we are then no longer the constriction of the pipe and our team. Our progress accelerates way beyond often what we could imagine ourselves. And that's what effectively Gene Kranz did. All I've done is put words around it to codify it if you like. So as we can, should we choose, put all of this into action. And that's what the book's about.

Oh, wonderful. And all of the lean thinkers listening to what you just said, as far as when the leader doesn't know the answer, we're all saying preach, preach, preach. Because this is what we're all about. Experimenting forward through those so called threshold of knowledge. The point to where we just don't know the flashlight only goes so far. And the only way to see what shines beyond that light is to move forward one step at a time. Right. And so it's a, it's a perfect parallel to what we're, what we're, what we're talking about. So can't wait to. So I shared with you, Peter. I've purposely not read the book yet before this interview, but now I'm excited to read it. And maybe if you're open to it, I'd love to have you back on after I've actually read it. And then I'm going to have different questions at that point. But I like to go into these that way. So. Wonderful. Well, how can people connect with you, Peter, if they like, is it social media, website? What's the best way?

Sure. So all of those. My website is cunningly called LeadingFromTheJumpSeat.com so it's the name of the book. The book is available on Amazon retail stores, ebook, hard and paperback and audiobook. I'm on Twitter and Instagram, Peter Docker, you can find me there. And yeah, happy to if anybody wants to reach out, tell me what you think of the book. Tell me if it's helped you a doctor at the weekend telling me how reading the book, it's actually brought everything into perspective, put words around things that she instinctively felt over her 30 plus years as a doctor and says that it directly applicable to the medical world as well. So you know that that's a joy to me to hear these things. So if anybody else has got feedback like that, how it's helped, helping them in their particular industry, I'd love to hear it. But yeah, reach out to me in any of those ways.

So everybody listening, you need to go to LeadingFromTheJumpSeat.com buy the book and we're going to do a Gemba Academy virtual book club kind of thing on the next podcast. So maybe I'll have people sending questions or whatever and then we'll have you back on Peter, and we'll go even deeper into the book.

That would be my absolute, absolute pleasure, Ron. That'd be great.

Fantastic. All right, well, we're going to link everything up in the show notes. So folks, you need to go to GembaPodcast.com this is episode 402402. So yeah, Peter, thank you for coming on and it's been a really, really fun conversation. I always tell people the best podcasts are the ones where the guests share stories and you are a natural storyteller. So thank you.

Thank you. All right, great. Thanks very much.

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