GA 409 | Continuous Improvement at Douglas Dynamics with Shannan Vlieger

And we know that we need to engage all levels of the organization, particularly where the work is done, whether that be in the office or the shop floor, and empower them to solve the problem, to feel, you know, comfortable, experimenting, to speak up when something, you know isn't right.

Today, I am very excited to welcome Shannon Vlieger to the show. Now, Shannon works for an organization called Douglas Dynamics, and we've been fortunate enough to work with Douglas Dynamics for many years. In fact, I've gotten to know their company very well. They've got several folks that go through our various certification, Black belt, Lean Practitioner certification programs, and they've just been a customer for a long time. Last December, I was able to participate in a presentation to some of their senior leadership where we talked about something called ddms, so stands for Douglas Dynamics Management System. And so this is their take on, on Lean and maybe the Toyota production system with their own flavor. And there's five levers that are sort of talked about and taught through this DDMS philosophy, this program. And, well, that's what we walk through today. We walk through those five levers and we talk a little bit about, about each one. And there's some really, really good stuff in this episode. So it's about 40 minutes long, a little bit over that impact, but I really want you into this whole thing because not only is it inspiring, but it's very, very informational because I feel like all of us are going to be able to take things from, from these, from these levers and apply them to our own organizations and our own life. In fact, as I mentioned to Shannon, there's one of them that I flat out stole word for word, and it's really one of the themes of GEMBA Academy's year for 2022. And anyhow, you'll have to hear. It's the fifth one. It's the fifth lever. But Shannon is one of my favorite Lean thinkers. She's so smart, but she's also super humble, really kind, and just a great. She articulates their message so well. And so I think you're gonna really appreciate this episode. Now, Show Notes, which is going to include a little condensed presentation summarizing these levers. Shannon agreed to put together kind of a special slideshow just for the Gemba Academy listeners. And so we're going to put that in the show. Not. So you're going to want to go to gemba podcast.com look for episode four, 09. And yeah, we'll link to those, to those slides and then to Shannon's LinkedIn. They also do tours, Douglas Dynamics does, and they've got facilities in Milwaukee and a couple other spots across the country, up 1 up in Maine and so forth. So if you're, if you want to see sort of world class Lean, I would say go, go check these folks out. They're, they're, they're a smaller company, but they're publicly traded, I believe. But they're not a giant company, but they're really doing a great job. So anyhow, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Shannon, welcome to the show. How are you?

I'm great, thanks, Ron. Thanks for having me on.

All right. Yeah, well, it's good to have you on. And so we've worked together for some time now, and so it's fun to finally get you on the podcast. We've done some webinars and live conferences and virtual conferences and all this kind of stuff together. But I'm really excited to, to have you on to share your story and your company story and your approach to Lean, because it's pretty spectacular. So I'm really excited for today. Where are you calling in from, Shannon?

I am calling in from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

All right. And you'd probably be like 80 degrees out there today, something like that.

Oh, yeah. Warm and sunny. Actually, it is a little warm today. We're approaching upper 20s.

Oh, yeah.

Feeling actually warm for us this time of year.

Your kids are out running around in their T shirts probably. You know.

That's right.

That's so awesome. That's so awesome. All right, well, hey, Shannon, as you know, we do like to kind of get things started with our guests sharing a quote. So do you have one?

I do. I have had a favorite quote for many years, and it is from Albert Einstein, the great Albert Einstein. It is in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.

I like it. I like it. We've had a lot of challenges over the last few years to navigate more than usual. So it's a great opportunity. Opportunity to practice that, right?

Yeah. It brings the optimism forward. And I think those of us that are just natural problem solvers, we think that way. We look forward to those opportunities for sure.

All right, well, hey, Shannon, tell us a little bit about your background. Tell us how you first got involved in all this continuous improvement stuff, and then tell us what you're up to these days.

Sure. All right. Well, my formal education was industrial engineering. So through my education at UW Madison, I quickly learned about continuous improvement lean manufacturing. And I loved it. I loved the element of manufacturing mixed with People and processes. And I'm an extrovert and knew that I wanted to be interfacing with others. And I love tinkering. So manufacturing was always something that I was curious about. And from there I started at Harley Davidson. So I had a really great about 15 year journey at Harley. And Harley has some world class continuous improvement philosophies and programs. And I learned a lot in my tenure there. But Douglas Dynamics had a opportunity available that interested me because it's a smaller business, it's still public and we're growing rapidly. But an opportunity to build a foundation around Lean and CI and do it in a very agile way where there's less bureaucracy and a lot of passionate employees that are empowered to participate and bring their ideas forward. And it was an exciting opportunity and one that I couldn't pass up. So at Douglas we have the Douglas Dynamics Management system. So that is our terminology for our CI journey. And it's been evolving for, I would say, close to 20 years now, of course, starting in manufacturing, but growing throughout the office. And then as a company, we've been growing rapidly as well. So we have multiple divisions now and close to 20 different locations. And so the lean journey has been spreading rapidly at all kinds of paces across the business.

Yeah, that's awesome. And so we'll shorten it to DDMS for the rest of the episode. But yeah, Douglas Dynamic Management System. Right. I wonder if you could just tell us really fast before we dive into DDMs, tell us a little bit about your company. Like what do you guys do?

Yeah, so originally we were a snow and ice business, building snow plows and salt spreaders. Over the years we've grown into the work truck industry where we build and install truck bodies. So basically, if you think of a work truck or a work van, you know, most traditionally now the Amazon van that you see running around. So we have a cargo and transit division as well, and we upfit those chassis. So we're, we're supplying landscapers, utility businesses, several, several fleet operations. And we have both the manufacturing of those attachments and the installation of them as well.

Got it. All right, well, let's jump right in here to. Into your management system here, ddms. And I'm wondering if we can start with why do you feel it's important to have this, this approach, perhaps even use the word mindset, this mindset into, you know, running your company? Really?

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think typical to a lot of manufacturing businesses, we started on the shop floor with some big problems to solve. Around quality and lead time. And so that lean manufacturing approach worked well. We had a lot of success through Kaizen events to streamline our operations, build a culture around Kaizen. And then it was when we started to grow and acquire new businesses where we realized it wasn't just the tools that we had to teach and apply, but the belief and the mindset around problem solving and seeking out waste and empowering people. And I think it was a little bit of an aha moment because we realized that is hard to instill in a culture that. That is new for us. So when we were acquiring businesses, you know, we were acquiring businesses in other parts of the country, and businesses that had grown into very successful businesses because of their own culture. So we had to. We had to really think about how we wanted to teach the concepts around DDMs, which we call our DDMs principles, and then most recently, help our leaders understand their role in the journey and developing that culture and mindset around CI. So we have adopted DDMS leadership levers, where we are specifically helping our key executives and upper management understand their role in leading the CI journey.

Yeah. Okay. And so I'm pretty familiar with your management system because you and I and some of your colleagues sort of co. Presented to a group of your champions or your senior leaders in the company. And so I know I have gotten. We've got some insight here, so I'm excited to be able to bring it out and share it with the audience. But let's name the five levers, and then what we can do is we can just kind of go through each one individually. So go ahead and list them all out first, and then we'll go through them.

Sure, Absolutely. And in no particular order, build DDMs into personal practice is the first one. Lead through Participation, not Proclamation is the second Think and Act Like a Coach. The fourth one is Eliminate Fear and Comfort. And our last one, number five, is Build Positive Tension, Not Stress.

Yeah. Yeah. My favorite. Well, I have two favorites. Eliminate Fear and Comfort and then Build Positive Tension, Not Stress. In fact, I told you we were having. When did we do that presentation? It was like, late November, Early.

Yeah, early December.

Time frame, Something like that. Yeah. So we were having a Gemba Academy, big planning meeting, review of the year, and then looking forward into 2022. And I totally stole Build Positive Tens Stress. Like, just word for word. I stole it and put it into our. Into our presentation because it's so wonderful. But anyhow, let's go back to the first one. Build DDMs into personal practice. And let's Talk about that one. Like, what does that really mean?

Yeah, I mean, I think quite. You know, to be frank, you have to practice what you preach. And I think it's important that we live the values that we teach. So, you know, putting it into our own practice, whether that be how we structure our day and apply leader standard work or just be more structured and predictable. I think you talk about that a lot, Ron, in your courses, just being intentional. And you brought that to life for the group. And that was a key message throughout our session with our leaders. To just really be planful, be reflective, apply your own reflection to get better every day. And, you know, just to think about how you're using the tools. Because ultimately we're practicing, we're not experts, and so we need to get better through our own application.

Yeah, I know for sure. I mean, it's. You know what's interesting also about these, the more that I see them and think about them, reflect on these levers. You know, I know we're targeting. Well, when we did our presentation, we were really focused on, you know, senior leaders in your company. But I feel like many these apply to everybody. Right. And so, like, sometimes you'll have a company that's not so Douglas, you have it from the top down. Everybody's on board, but that's not always the case. So we've got some listeners out there who are practitioners and their leaders might not be as excited about continuous improvement as they are. And so, like, this is a perfect lever here for anyone. You know, take control what you can control. Right. And make what you can make better. Right. No one's gonna get mad at you for making something better. You know what I mean?

Absolutely. And I think there's different ways, ways to help lead up in this case. So this is a particular lever that's near and dear to me from my time at Harley where we did a lot of leadership coaching. So we were assigned a functional area as a CI expert. And we helped those leaders within the functional area understand what it meant to be on a CI journey. And a lot of that coaching was done in private because you're talking to leaders and they have a role in the organization and an ego, maybe that comes along with it. We would have a lot of one on one to just think about. What does your day look like? How effective are your meetings? Sometimes those of us that love our 5s, you can see it just by walking in somebody's office, how organized and planful they are. And then I think as CI leaders, we have a tendency to forget that we need to be the ultimate ambassador. So I joke with my team about the cobbler whose kids have no shoes. We need to apply it as well, and that takes time and. And being intentional like you teach. And again, it's all about the practice.

Yep. Yep. Okay. Now, the second lever, for me at least, is very closely related to this first one, or there's a lot of harmony between the two. And it's lead through participation, not proclamation. So talk about this one. Maybe the difference between a proclamation and participation.

Yeah. Yeah. I think those of us that have been supporting CI journeys know that there are some folks that think they can maybe just learn the lingo or say that they're bought in or they understand. But if you haven't really rolled up your sleeves and taken part, you don't see the magic, you know, the tenacity that's required and then the ultimate reaching goals and feeling fulfilled and celebrating success. So it's more than just saying that you understand or that you're bought in. And for us, this really came to life when we started to acquire new businesses and being. Being the parent company, people want to say the right things to show that they're trying, but it wasn't enough. We needed to invite them in and explain that when we're doing a Kaizen event, you check your title at the door and you're part of the team and you got to stick with it and set your laptops aside and be with us for whatever the duration may be. And that's the participation, visible participation, to show your teams, your other leaders, your peers, whatnot, that you're willing to take the time and learn and practice as well. And, you know, we love to hear our leaders come up and proclaim to the group, you know, what their beliefs are, but it really matters most when they show that they can spend the time, be curious, learn with us, you know, and be part of the success ultimately.

Well, I'm glad you just mentioned be curious and learn, because I feel like also a bit a big aspect to this one, lead through participation, not proclamation, is for our leaders. Don't pretend that you know everything. Right? Because you don't. None of us do. Right. There's. There's that threshold of knowledge. There's only so much that we don't know. And the only way to learn or to figure it out is to experiment, take some. Some chances, whatever it is. But for the leader to be out front and saying, hey, let's go forward, and I don't know what's going to happen either. But, hey, let's see, let's learn. And that's a very powerful message when the leader is humble, Right. And says, I don't know, but let's learn together. I mean, boy, you're going to have power behind you when you have that attitude.

Oh, absolutely. We've been talking a lot about practical problem solving and how I think one of our pitfalls is when you do have a leader or somebody on the team that is maybe more insecure about not having the answer or isn't understanding the essence around experimentation. And it just, you know, that's when we fail. And so it's just. It's so critical to have, like you said, to be humble and curious and then foster that environment where it's okay to not have the answer, but to test and learn and test and learn. So, absolutely, they go hand in hand.

Yeah. There was a few years ago at one of the Toyota Kata conferences, Katakan conference that they have, they were giving out these stickers, and the little sticker said, don't be so sure. And I love that. You know, you just slap that sticker on your chest. Yeah. Okay. Very good. All right, let's go to the third one. So think and act like a coach.

Yes. So we had some good debate. You know, anytime we're putting some of these things together, we like to wordsmith and debate, you know, the terminology. So for us, we use the word coach a lot. We see ourselves as facilitators and coaches and, you know, ultimately we want to bring awareness and understanding and help others find the answer, but we don't want to be the ones to deliver that. Right. So transferring skills and knowledge, being responsible for fostering the learning environment, but not necessarily having the answer. So I think about, you know, we use a lot of sports analogies. I know everybody does, but it makes sense. You know, you have to prepare your team. You have to be clear with your goals, but they are ultimately the ones to execute. So we have some different coaching models that we teach. Again, we just reinforce that teachers and coaches are what are necessary in the CI environment. We don't, quote, unquote, outsource to a CI department. We don't say, oh, well, we're going to go have our CI leaders or our Six Sigma experts go solve that problem. We just facilitate the process. We bring them through the learning, and ultimately they solve their own problems.

Yeah, talk a little bit about how you want folks to almost take responsibility for the message, because I know that's a big part of this lever talk A little bit about that.

Yeah. I mean, I think, again, this was some of our learning as we grew as an organization where we found that there aren't enough. There's never enough CI experts. There's always more problems than we have people that facilitate. But there's a lot of folks that are trained, they've practiced. They might not have CI in their title, but that's perfectly fine because they're CI leaders still. And so we created these principles, and it's really the how, because people would focus maybe too much on the tools in times of learning, where we said, it's not about the tools, it's how you applied the tools. So seeking out data and being curious, like we've talked about, and really working together as a team with the right team. So those are things that we wanted to reinforce and help others understand that you don't have to be an expert in all the tools, but if you understand how we apply the tools through our principles, you're going to be successful. We promise you, you'll be successful. You know, the tools are EAs. How you apply it. That I think, is the challenge.

Oh, yeah, 100%. That's so funny. You said the tools are easy. I always tell people when they're going through our certification, whether it's a black belt or lean practitioner or whatever it is. And I always tell people, listen, solving the problem's the easy part. You know, deeply understanding the problem and being able to really understand what it is you're trying to fix and how, you know, it's a problem. That's the hard part, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, one of the things I think that I really learned in coming to Douglas was, for one, what we just talked about. The tools are just the tools. You know, they're great. And there is, you know, a lot to be said around picking the right tool, but it's the teamwork. And we say empowering our employees, and we go further and we say empowering our employees throughout all levels of the organization. So, you know, we talk about going to gimbal where the work is done. Let's pull the people that are doing the work to solve the problems. Where in my past life, we didn't always have the luxury of doing that. It would be the folks that maybe had extra time on their hands, or we couldn't pull the most critical members of the team out of the business to solve problems because they were too busy and too critical. Where we flipped that at Douglas. And we know that we need to engage all levels of the organization, particularly where the work is done, whether that be in the office or the shop floor and empower them to solve the problem. Problem. To feel, you know, comfortable experimenting. To speak up when something you know isn't right or there's more work to be done, you know, because it's, we talk about not wanting to set it and forget it. You know, there's this perpetual journey that you're on. So. Yeah, so keep challenging ourselves and be comfortable doing that.

Yeah. Now you've already mentioned several of these throughout our conversation here, but I know like part of the, of your principles is really focusing on the how. So you've, you've mentioned the importance of being curious and, and working as a team and all. But I know there's five things that you're focused on on this, on the how. Maybe just walk through each of the five and again, some of them we're going to repeat but I feel like seeing the whole thing can help.

Yeah. So again, I like telling this story. So we, we purchased a company on the east coast called Dejana. It was a very large acquisition for us. So we had almost doubled our staff. We had multiple sites to cover and we were doing Kaizen event after Kaizen event. And that was good for the time being because we wanted to help solve some problems and get some quick wins and really show the value of DDMs. But we needed to also focus on the culture and build something that was sustainable. So we didn't have the principles prior to that. We had a really successful track record and we had some resources to deploy. But then we realized we needed to speak to the how and find the right words to do so which, which turned into the principles. So with that as the backdrop, again no particular order because you could, we argued if these should be in an order. As good CI experts, you know, we critique ourselves quite a bit. So first one being understand our customers. So again those customers, internal and external as we know, so upstream downstream customers in our processes and obviously our end users and our distributors and the customers that ultimately help drive our revenue. Then the second one is to seek out the data. So we are self proclaimed data nerds. We realize the importance of measurement. We talk about taking the emotion out of solving problems when you have data to support and ultimately keeping score. We're a very competitive culture here. We like to win. Our value system is actually called the winning behaviors, which I know Ron, we've shared with you. So we realize that we need to keep score and using data is how we do that. The third one is and okay, this is my favorite, I will admit, be creative and curious. So creativity being again just so critical to solving problems, to getting better every day, to understanding where waste is hidden and then the curiosity around solving problems. So we oftentimes will bring people into Kaizen events that have nothing to do with the problem at hand. They may be in an office environment where they aren't familiar with manufacturing or vice versa. Because that curiosity is just really exciting when you get somebody that's less familiar with the work to brainstorm, to test out. You know, we, we love to get scrappy and pull like PVC pipes and you know, plywood together for a shop floor improvement and, and just test and it's fun. That kind of stuff is fun for people to really get their hands dirty and roll up their sleeves. So that's creativity and curiosity. The fourth one is simplify the process so we don't go anywhere without post its. This Covid environment's gotten us a little bit tripped up. We're doing more virtually, but we love process mapping and value stream mapping. We use post it and do business process mapping quite often. And there's people throughout the organization that are very familiar, not just our CI experts. So we love wall space. We just actually moved into a new headquarters and we were very careful about where we put artwork because we know the value of having a clean wall and so process simplification. We put a lot of emphasis on waste elimination. It's actually one of the reasons why we partnered with Gimba Academy. We have some kind of critical, more standard elements of our learning program and waste elimination has been key and we use a lot of the same terminology as Gimb Academy. So we just, we love that it aligns so well. And then last but not least, and you could argue this one maybe should be most important, work as a team and win as a team. So I think, you know, teamwork goes without saying, but winning as a team, this one is really important to us. And again, this has been a learning for me over my journey around CI to take time to celebrate, to not just move on to the next whatever problem opportunity. You know, we have a tendency to do that and we need to stop and celebrate. It's good for our momentum. It feels good and it also just builds the camaraderie. There's some great stories and memories of our Kaizen event dinners and just celebrations and you know, that takes time and money. So it's not easy. But it's really important to our journey and our organization and really sustaining our culture.

Yeah, I love it. Okay, so the first three have been really good. I like those levers a lot. But the last two, this is where it's all at, in my opinion. So let's. Let's go to.

It gets trickier here.

It does, it does. Let's go to the. To the. To the fourth one. Eliminate fear and comfort. Eliminate fear and comfort. This is. There's a dichotomy there.

There is. And I need to credit Andy Carlino from the Lean Learning center in Novi, Michigan. So, Andy Carlino, they came out years ago when I was in a corporate continuous improvement function and really taught us these elements and how. And you talk about it too, around the psychological kind of impact of driving change and improvement. And I think this whole getting out of your comfort zone and into where, where you don't have all the answers, but you're ready to learn and it's super uncomfortable. But then through reflection, you feel really good because you realize how much you've learned and gained. That's the sweet spot. So, you know, we put up the picture of the circles where you've got the comfort zone in the middle and the red zone of stress on the outside, and somewhere in between there, there's this sweet spot where learning is happening, but in the right way, that it's not creating too much stress or discomfort or disrupt. So finding that learning zone is critical and it happens through challenging one another in a respectful way, accepting failure, truly accepting that we're not going to get it right the first time. And that's okay because that's how we learn. And doing that together, doing that as a team, to step outside that comfort zone and kind of lock arms and learn together.

Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Talk a little bit about. I know you guys are really big on the book the Fearless Organization. It's a fantastic book on psychological safety. So talk a little bit about why you guys talk about psychological safety as it. Maybe as it relates to this. To this lever.

Yeah, I think this one fits nicely because of the way that we step into that. That learning zone. So eliminating the fear that could be attached with that. Because maybe the environment isn't as healthy and you don't want to be seen as ignorant or you don't want to be seen as a naysayer or negative by challenging one another, getting to a state where that is welcomed and understood. There's a quote that I had down, and I love this one. It's from the book where they said, frame the work that you're doing as a learning problem, not an execution, execution problem, you know, so it's. It's a positive spin on problem solving, you know, that we're learning, we need to learn, and that's the challenge in front of us to get better. Not that we're going to critique, you know, the execution of something that we realize is a problem. So admitting that, you know, it's okay that we didn't maybe get it right or it's not good enough, and then, you know, creating that culture on curiosity, you know, and really welcoming the curiosity that can be brought into problem solving.

Yes. Okay, so the fifth for me, my favorite. And again, as I mentioned earlier, this is the one that I. That I definitely stole word for word for. Gemba Academy is really 2022. I mean, this might even be sort of the theme of Gemba Academy this year, just, just internally with our team as far as doing what we're trying to do and trying to practice continuous improvement. And it's build positive tension, not stress. So again, there's a dichotomy built into this one as well. Talk a little bit about what this one is all about.

Yeah, yeah. This one, I think, ties a lot into change management and building that burning platform where it can be scary to think about what the future state might require, might hold, but you want to get there. You create enough tension in a positive way that you want to seek out that future state, that you want to cross that bridge that you want to go across through that learning zone. So for us, again, very competitive environment. We like to win. We are hard workers. We have this kind of tenacious vibe in our workforce, and we're really proud of that. It's what helps us obviously win and it can be stressful. And so we need to figure out how to balance that environment where you've got the energy because we're driving forward, but you want it to compel us forward in the right way where it's not stressful. So we've talked about. Stress occurs when you don't understand where you're going. This is very real in our environment right now with everything we have in front of us from. From a business situation with supply chain challenges, and then obviously all of our fun hurdles with COVID So having that vision for the ideal state brings that stress down where you can clearly understand where we're trying to go. And so I love thinking about the being allergic to the current state, having a hatred almost for the status quo. So you're propelling forward and you know where you're going and you have a clear Understanding of that gap, those things eliminate the stress. And it's so important that we are clear with our, with our intentions, with our vision, with how big that gap is and how we need to get there. And that starts to build this energy which we call positive tension.

Yeah. And I know you guys are big fans of scientific thinking, Toyota Kata. And this is, to me, is probably why I love this one the most, is that to me, it's a perfect example of when we set a long term challenge. You know, let's. Something that's really difficult might be going to take a year to get there, but we know we could probably do it. But it's still, it's stressful thinking about that challenge. However, if we step back then and say, all right, hey, let's start a target condition. Where can we be in a couple weeks? Right. And we start working towards that short term target condition. That's, that's positive tension. Right now we're able to, we realistically know that we can get that in two weeks and then boom, you get it, you get a little dopamine, you feel good, and well, let's set another one. And now we're navigating all the way towards that challenge and, and with positive tension, not stress.

Absolutely. Yeah. The action planning that comes along with that routine of the gap feels smaller then to your point and you know, you're working towards closing it. So I, yeah, I absolutely love kata. We need to apply it more. We're going to lean on Gimba Academy to get better at applying kata.

Awesome. Awesome. Ah, well, that's all five. That's all five. Let's, let's, let's walk back, just a good teaching exercise, go back all through them again and maybe give a quick sentence or two for each one, starting with DDMs into personal practice.

Sure, absolutely. So first one, build DDMs into personal practice. So quite frankly, practice what you preach, Apply it to your own practice. Lead through participation, not proclamation. So roll up our sleeves and get involved. Understand how it's working. Understand how we might be needing to support our organization by participating, not just saying that we're going to be lean or apply a CIA methodology. Think and act like a coach. Truly be that coach, that mentor, that facilitator of the process. Recognizing that you need to help others apply the learning. That's where the practice happens. So being that coach and mentor is key. Eliminate fear and comfort. So again, finding that learning zone where we aren't accepting the status quo, however, we are being clear and intentional to reach that learning zone. Where experimentation happens and we're getting better every day. Last but not least, build positive tension, not stress. So helping their organization see that there is a gap and building the right practices to close that gap and in a productive, less stressful way.

Fantastic. Hey, I'm wondering, is there a way that we could, I don't know, maybe you could create. I know we've got a big presentation that we used for our presentation a month or so ago, but maybe there's a way that you could summarize these levers and some of these principles into maybe, I don't know, just five or six slides. Is that something that you guys could do or be willing to do?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Will gladly share the content. I think this is the wonderful part about our Lean community is that we none of this is created and copywritten. It's something that we share through our own experiences, and I'd love to share it with your audience.

Awesome. Awesome. All right, so what we'll do is we'll attach it to the Show Notes page so folks can go to gembapodcast.com this is going to be episode 409. Just look for that and then scroll down a little bit, and Jessica will link it up then in the show notes there. So. Wow, this has been so good, Shannon, as I mentioned to you guys at the end of our little talk there in December, that we work with a lot of really awesome companies, but you guys are right at the top of the list because you really are practicing what you're preaching, because I know, because I work with many of your folks that are going through either our black belt or our Lean Practitioner training. You got a lot of folks coming through our program, and it's genuine. Right? Some people have the slides, but you guys are really doing it. So I'm really honored to know you guys and to be able to work with you and partner with you. So thanks for all you're doing and keep up the great work.

Thank you. Thank you for recognizing that. We're very proud of what we've built, and we're happy to share more with anybody that wants to embark on what our journey has been like. So, by all means, I look forward to working with you as well, Ron. You've been really helpful in propelling our journey through all of the learning opportunities. So thank you.

Yeah, you're welcome. Guys. Do, like, tours or anything like that, if anybody wants to come and check out?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Our Milwaukee facility has definitely had several groups through, whether it be our local consortiums around Lean or different programs that we support. And so absolutely, tours are welcome. We have a facility in Rockland, Maine, if anybody wants to venture up the northeast coast. They welcome tours in that manufacturing environment. And you can certainly look us up on our website. Our Henderson business out in Iowa, they do several tours and their manufacturing facility. So we welcome, we welcome that. We love to share the learning, we take feedback. We would love to have an outside perspective on how we can get better. So, yeah, absolutely.

So if, okay, so if folks want to learn more about tours or whatever, what's the best? Should they just contact you or go to your website or what do you think?

Yep, absolutely, you can contact me. We do have an ability to contact our corporate communications director on our website, but certainly you can share my information and I will direct them as well.

Okay, and so for you, what's the best way? LinkedIn email. What's the best way to get in touch with you, Shannon?

I would say email works great. Or LinkedIn. So my email address, if you'd like to share my Douglas email address, you can certainly add that to this podcast information as well.

Okay, yeah, we'll get it in there somehow or another. We just sometimes we don't put the actual emails on our website because the robots will come out and start spamming you. But we'll figure it out. We'll for sure put your LinkedIn in there. So Shannon, let me try it. Veliger, is that. How did I do? Is that. Okay, so it's V L I E G E R and then Shannon is S H A N N A N. And again, we'll link it all up in the show notes episode 409. So awesome. Well, thank you Shannon for coming on. This has been wonderful as I knew it would be. And yeah, I look forward to working together for many years to come.

Thank you. Likewise, Ron. This was fun.

Take care.

You too.

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