GA 417 | Steel Toes and Stilettos with Kathy Miller and Shannon Karels

And we kept asking ourselves, like, why was that one so successful? Like, what? You know, what caused us to be so great? And we started talking about it and telling stories, and finally we said, you know, I think we've got a story to tell, and maybe it could help others in more ways than one.

Today, I'm excited to welcome Kathy Miller and Shannon Carrolls to the show. Now, Kathy and Shannon have co authored a book called Steel Toes and Stilett. So it's a very, very awesomely named book. And the book is all about a transformation that the two of them work together on, a lean transformation. And so they sort of walk through the transformation of how they went about it. So it is sort of, as they say, kind of a technical roadmap of how they went about it. But it obviously transcends just the tools. They spend a lot of time talking about the people side of the movement and, you know, how we need to be engaging people and respecting people. And so we just really walked through a bunch of different topics related to a lean transformation. In particular, some of the things that they did, some of the tactical things that they did, but then other things, such as how did they make it fun and how did they weave fun and empowering people into the transformation? And the thing I really appreciated about Kathy and Shannon is that they're really positive people and they're happy. And we had our cameras on and they had smiles on their face the whole time while they were telling their story. So you can tell that they really believe and what they're saying, and they love what they do. And so I'm really excited for you to hear this one. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com look for episode four. 17. Again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 417. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Kathy and Shannon, welcome to the show. How are you?

We're doing great. Thanks so much for having us, Ron.

Yeah. Well, I told you guys before we hit record that I'm super excited to have you on, and I've actually done more lurking and intel on YouTube than I do a lot of our guests, because the name of your book is very cool and very interesting. And so I'm like, who are these ladies the most I got into? You have a heck of a background. But then just the way that you guys are sharing your story is so awesome. And so, yeah, really, really excited to. To have you on before we. I'm gonna have you guys give a quote each one, but where are you calling in from?

So I'm outside of Indianapolis, and this is Kathy.

Okay.

And Shannon. I'm outside of Chicago.

Nice. Nice. Okay. All right. Well, I know you guys have listened to the show before, and we do like to get things rolling with a quote, so I think you both have one maybe.

Yes, we do. We do. Although we share a lot of quotes, and you'll see a lot of quotes in the book. One that's really driven me for a long time is the shop floor is a reflection of management. So every time I was walking through one of my plants, it could either really motivate me or really upset me, but it's always there in the back of my mind.

Yeah, I like that. Shannon, what do you got?

And I agree wholeheartedly with Kathy's. I do love that quote. Mine's a little different. Mine's from Albert Einstein, and it is. If I had an hour to solve a problem, I'd spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem and 5 minutes thinking about solutions.

Yeah, yeah. It's so hard to do.

Always trying to solve problems. Right. And that's what Lean's all about, solving problems for people and customers.

A hundred percent. I love it. All right, well, hey, why don't you guys tell us about your backgrounds, and maybe at the end, one of you could talk about how you guys met, because it's sort of an interesting story. I sort of already know because I heard it in another interview. You did, But I thought it was really fun, so. Yeah, maybe.

Well, and it's an inspiration, right, for the book title, for sure.

Exactly.

The little backstory there.

Kathy, you want to start?

Sure. So I literally started working at a vehicle assembly plant at the age of 17. I was a co op student and was just fascinated by, you know, a vehicle, a fully functioning vehicle rolling off the end of the line every 60 seconds. And so I got it in my blood at a very early age, and then I just progressed through a number of jobs, including marketing, including engineering, and found that I really loved factories. So I ended up going back to operations and progressing through a number of leadership positions, including running global operations for a big, big, big, big company, very recognizable company, as well as doing leadership for the Lean Initiative, for strategy deployment, for quality initiatives for large global companies. So that progressed into what we're doing now with opsisters, where we're working with other companies to help them, you know, learn from our lessons and, you know, a lot of the things that we learned along the way.

And I'm a little slow Sometimes. And I saw OP sisters, I was like, ops sister. What? Oh, OP sisters. I didn't. I got it.

Yeah, we played on the shared S there.

Yeah, cool.

We did. And I'll tell a little bit about that too. So my background is a little different. So I was recruited out of Western Michigan's supply chain program, joined a large industrial manufacturing company where I spent about the first decade of my career in supply chain management. Various roles from purchasing compliance. But I started to find my love of the factory when I got into production control and scheduling all of the assembly and manufacturing lines. And then I got into a lean transformation with a business that was underperforming. And that's how I ended up meeting Kathy. And I'll come back to that story. So then after I went into that and started doing lean for multiple sites, I took a couple different roles with different companies running the manufacturing plants. So from there, this is where we ended up. Like Cathy said. But to flashback, I want Kathy to tell the story because she does tell it better because it was from her perspective how it happened. So, Kath, you tell the story and then we'll talk about how we got here.

Okay. So at the time I was leading lean quality and strategy deployment for big Fortune 500 company and everybody I was traveling with all over the globe. Right. 20 odd countries and whatnot, was always encouraging me to not check luggage. Right. To just carry on. Which was very challenging for me because I love my accessories.

Yeah.

I'm just going to be honest. And so I consciously chose not to bring my safety shoes along on this one trip because I take up half of a carry on suitcase. So ended up at a plant that Shannon was at. She was in supply chain. I did not know her at this point. Show up, we're getting ready to go to the shop floor. And I said, I didn't bring my safety shoes because of this, you know, carry on challenge that my peers were always, you know, putting on me. Yeah, they said, no problem, come to the cabinet. We've got plenty of guest shoes. So I go to the guest cabinet. Men's shoes in every size. No ladies shoes. And they're like. But it's no problem because we have these little duck bill things, you know, that you put on the front.

Yeah.

And the back. And of course they don't even stay if you have heels on. And I think they're literally more dangerous than, you know, wearing high heel open toed shoes, you know. So about that time, Shannon was running through the lobby and she said, you know what? I'VE got a pair of safety shoes that you could borrow, Kathy. And I'm like, oh, that's so nice. Thinking to myself, what's the chances that we're the same size? Right. And we actually work fortuitously? And so that's how our whole friendship, you know, began. She can tell you stories about that visit. I thought it was very cordial and wonderful. She has different, you know, recollections of the feedback that I gave that plant at the time. But, you know, we just stayed in contact and eventually got to work on the same team together. So that's how it started. And that's, you know, one of the inspirations for the title of the book.

Yeah. So I don't think we've given the title yet. Steel Toes and Stilettos. That is such a cool name. Okay. I don't want to div. More into the book here as we go on, but. Well, I know. Okay, let's just start there. Like, first of all, why did you write it? You know, what was the. What problem were you trying to solve by writing this book?

So that's a great question, and there's a couple answers for you. It's not.

It's.

It's not as straightforward as we always thought it would be, but we were reminiscing one day together, and we were talking about how successful the transformation was that we did. And we separately had been running transformations since that point at different companies and on our own. And we kept asking ourselves, like, why was that one so successful? Like, what, you know, what caused us to be so great? And we started talking about it and telling stories, and finally we said, you know, I think we've got a story to tell and maybe it could help others in more ways than one. And so that's what started it. And then when we started to dig into who is this for and why are we telling it, it's started to grow a little bit. So we obviously are talking about a manufacturing lean transformation that we put in place. So it can be read as that roadmap of process steps that we followed. But then it gets a little more deeper into leadership and the type of teams we were building and how we interact with the teams. And we talk a lot less about the tools and a lot more about the why we did them. So why, hey, we needed to put in a layered process audit. Okay, great. There's lots of them out there. Why did we do it? And how do we bring the people along in the process? So we wanted to inspire people within manufacturing and then inspire those that want to get into manufacturing, including women in any kind of STEM and manufacturing field. So it just became a very deep project for us to hit a lot of areas.

Yeah, very cool. So, I mean, but talk more about the title. I mean, obviously I get to steel toes, but what's the Stylado? I mean, what does that got to do with. With lean?

Well, yeah, that part is not so much about Lean. That part is more about being women in manufacturing, obviously. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it's about the roles that we play. And there were so many times where Shannon and I were the only females in meeting at conferences, those sorts of things.

Yeah.

And we stayed very true to ourselves in terms of our identity and our values and who we were. We didn't really try to conform to, you know, more of the stereotypes of a male world. Right. And so we just wanted to say, look, you can be successful in whatever profession you choose by staying true to your values, you know, and you still have something to contribute. So that's why we stuck with that analogy. Stilettos are primarily a female accessory.

No, for sure. So I have several daughters, and my two oldest, fat Kylie, is. She's interning here at Gemba Academy. Matter of fact, she's probably editing this podcast right now. And her and her sister, they're both, you know, beautiful young ladies, but they're real strong. And Kylie, actually, she's studying now film and radio and TV and that type of thing. So that's, you know, kind of why she's working here. But before that, she was actually seriously considering, like, welding or something like a trade like that, you know, And I was like, wow, okay. You know, I'm not that we have like a big welding background or anything like that, but just sort of like she wasn't scared of sort of venturing in a completely. For sure, I would say, I would guess male dominated type of, you know, I don't show how many young ladies are in the. In the class there, you know, and. And my other two of my other daughters are all about horses and they're running a big ranch and bell racing and all the rest of it. So I really appreciate, you know, you guys standing up and saying, hey, you can do whatever you want to do, you know what I mean? And just go and get after it. So that's super inspiring. Yeah. So. All right, well, let's go. Let's keep going a little bit more. I'm. I'm curious to hear. I know that you guys have you talk about this very Successful transformation. Let's perhaps. I think you've used a phrase in a different talk that I heard you guys give a model plant. Is that, Is that accurate?

Yes.

So I want to just, you know, just for the sake of the. Of the practitioner out there who is trying to create a better workplace, let's. Let's get a little geeky with just the lean side of things for a little bit. And how did you guys go about it? Was it sort of slow and steady wins the race, or were you big, like, let's go blitz this thing and kaiset events all over the place, or talk a little bit about the transformation that you guys went through?

So it starts with the leader, right? Setting the vision. And I was very fortunate because I had the opportunity to work with a lot of lean coaches and that sort of thing before I went back into plant managers. So I understood the principles of flow and had seen them in action, had helped transform plants that I was not the leader of, but was supporting from a lean transformation standpoint. So I had personally seen the benefits of lean manufacturing and really lean enterprise. Right. Because the same tools apply in every function of the business. It just takes a little bit of thinking to adapt the concept within the office. So when in this particular story where I'm the general manager and it is a true story, I just started with, we are going to transform our plants to lean enterprises. And I had to articulate what that was and paint the vision because so many people who work in a manufacturing plant haven't had the opportunity to visit 200 plants in 20 countries and see the difference between, you know, a purely lean plant and one that's run purely on traditional batch manufacturing. So it was really about, you know, we're going to do this. There's no plan B. How we do it, we'll figure out together, you know, because, you know, there is an order of approach that we talk about in the book, but it's really important to bring people along with you. And so a lot of communication, a lot of setting the vision, a lot of, I'm not kidding, this is what we're going to do and putting the resources in place. I did not have a lean leader on my staff when I first got to this organization. And one of the first things I did was post that job. And I went and got Shannon because I had met her and she was a supply chain person. And as you know, so much of lean Enterprise is about the material and information flow. You know, supply chains is that brain of your organization. Operations is the brawn and so she was the perfect person for that job and did an amazing job. So I'll let her take it from there. But the first part is setting the vision, articulating the vision, often, you know, not backsliding and then including the people love it.

And there's, there's obviously many ways to go through early in transformation. The way we went through it was much more implement checkpoint that whole PDCA process. We did do Kaizen events and we did do some blitz when we were doing, you know, two P events and relaying out the plant and all of those types of activities that we just needed to get after in a couple days. But it was that more slow and steady. So it was, you know, we were fortunate enough to be able to work with a sensei to teach us. So it was a once a month check in, you come in, we walk the plant, here's what you gotta go do. And it was progressive learning. So then they would come back, we'd get most things done or we sure would try. And then we just kept going through that whole PDCA process of this is what we're going to do, do it, check it, go back and try again. And it didn't always work the first time actually it never really worked the first time. And so we were very prescriptive over the process and the steps we went through. But there were many times that we had to take two steps back and try again. So that was the process. We went through a lot of trial and error and slow and steady.

How long did it take? Well, maybe fast forward to where the lean journey never ends, obviously. But let's say there was a certain point to where you stood back and you'd be like, wow, we're really seeing some results now. Things have gotten better. Can you talk about some of the maybe specific results that you guys saw?

Yeah. So I would say we do talk about this in the book as well. We laugh because the first, I think six chapters or something all take place in the first year because it's. And it's a three year, it's a three year story because there's so much foundational work that needs to be done up to that point. So we didn't start really seeing positive results until about 18 months in. And now I'm not talking, I'm talking big jumps, you know, multiple percent productivity improvement, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars of inventory reduction, multiple points in on time delivery improvement, things like that. It took about 18 months or two years to really start seeing those super, super fast Results. Now, we had incremental wins, don't get me wrong along the way. But when you look at the bottom line, it did take. It took a while to get those results, which is why that vision and the leadership support is so important to stick with it.

Yep.

Because then by the end of year three was when it all came to fruition and we had 90% improvement in quality ratings. You know, however you want to measure it, parts per million. We had, oh gosh, I can't even remember 75% in accident rate improvement. We had 20 points. I want to say, Kathy, in productivity and games, I mean, it was just off the charts results that we got. And it's because we had everyone engaged in the organization.

I love that you mentioned safety. I'm passionate about safety and I know you guys are as well. Talk a little bit about your approach to safety and how lean plays a critical part in improving that.

Oh my goodness. Well, safety really is about process discipline and so is lean. Right. And so the two are, the two are hand in glove. I'm so, so passionate about safety. And one of the first places that I always start with plants is, you know, 5s. Some people include safety, so it's 6s or 5s plus safety. But it is amazing how much just removing the clutter and the noise contributes to safety. You all, at least my experience, I always got an initial jump by just being very disciplined in cleaning up the plants and then making sure they sustain themselves. And that takes a lot of time and effort and it's not something that a leader can delegate and just say, go clean it up and I'll be back when you get there. Because you know, a lot of plants aren't organized that way, so that's a big piece of it. But then it's the same principles. Right. So you're looking for things that could go wrong, that could be a problem and trying to problem solve proactively. And if heaven forbid, you get an accident which does happen, I, as the general manager, the vice president, whatever title director I had at the time, would personally investigate that with my staff. And that did a number of things. First of all, it made sure that people knew that I was voting with my calendar. And that was personally very important to me and important enough that I dragged the marketing manager, you know, the supply chain manager, literally everyone on my staff. It was non negotiable. And we went out and, you know, looked at the corrective actions, made sure everybody had the resources that they needed and you know, and that they were included in the solution as well as we would check them, we would check to make sure things did not revert either, you know, the processes that we put in place or those sort of things and retrain the operator was never an acceptable corrective action. So. And you know, that's the same thing with processes. Right. You're really lean processes. You're trying to put them in place so that they. They can't fail. Yeah, right.

Yeah.

They want to be error proof.

So.

I think there's so many similarities. I had a huge passion for it. I ended every conference call and everything with Be safe was always my tagline at the end of every conversation, just so it was constantly in front of.

People as we progressed through the transformation. At first, it is very tactical, like Kathy saying, 5s and let's clean up and let's get organized and do all of that. And then same with the transformation. It is data collection.

It's.

It's figuring out what your value streams are. It's all of those things. And then as you progress through that journey, it becomes more about people and the human element to it. So instead of being like, oh, you're not wearing your safety glasses, we would say things like, hey, I know you want to watch your son play baseball this season. I'm really worried about something happening to your eye and you're not being able to do that. It just became more about that human element and getting to know the people and building those relationships so that we built a culture that people were not only thinking about their own safety, but they were thinking about everyone else's safety and looking out for each other. And that did take some time to get to. That didn't happen overnight because we had a lot of trust to build in Lean and everything else. But our journey became like that, too. It wasn't like, why is that tote outside of that box? It became, hey, how is it going? And do you have any ideas on what we can do to make it better?

Yeah.

So all those things kind of happened simultaneously.

Yeah. You know, I think I've shared this on the podcast before, but I'm so passionate about safety, personally, and I wish I could say that I've always been as passionate I am now, but it's not, not, not true. It's not that I dismissed safety early in my career, but. But there was a quick story, and I'll make it quick. It's tragic. You know, I was. I was visiting a plant. This was prior to Gamba Academy, obviously. And I was working at a company, and. And I Visited a particular plant and, and we were finishing up the day and there was a young man had come in to work the night shift and, and really happy, big smile on his face. And it was one of those. Yeah, that energy. You're sort of drawn to people like that because they're happy, you know. And I walked up to him, hey, you know, introduce myself and, and what do you got going on tonight? And he explained. And anyhow, fast forward the next morning we pulled up and there was police and all this bad stuff everywhere. And come to find out, the young man, there was a manufacturing. I'm going to do the details of it, but, you know, made a mistake and. And he died. And. Oh, you know, I mean, it just, it shakes me to my core even today. And it's been 20 years, you know, ago when this happened. And you just. The people that are listening, if you ever think about safety is. Oh, yeah, 5s or 6, who cares? 5s or 6, you know, but like, nothing is more important than safety. Nothing. You know, and so I think, I hope if people take anything from. From this conversation is just be safe, like, really. Because you don't ever want to make that phone call, you know.

Oh my gosh, you do not.

And unfortunately, Kathy and I have both had severe accidents that we've had to experience. And I think it changes you a lot when those types of things happen.

Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. Okay. We meet like a Debbie Downer here, you know, lift everybody up here. But let's, let's change gears a little bit because one thing that I've learned about the two of you is that you're very positive people and you like to have a lot of fun. And I understand even part of your model or your transformation model is that fun's a part of it. And so I want you to maybe talk a little bit about that and how you try to work that in.

Well, yeah, there's fun and there's positivity. Right. And sometimes they overlap and sometimes they don't. So I am a huge fan of optimism and positivity. As a matter of fact, I just finished a degree at the University of Pennsylvania and appl. Positive psychology.

Wow.

And that's about helping individuals that. Thanks. Very cool. It was an. It was an amazing, amazing program and it was taught by Marty Seligman, who's, you know, known as the father of positive psychology and, and many of. Many people who've studied this for years. And so when you talk about positive, positive, it's not necessarily, you know, happy ology but really interventions and things that help people and individuals and organizations thrive. So I took a year and learned the science behind all of that. And what was very exciting for me was to have a lot of data around the way that I prefer to live my life. There's the positive piece of it and then there's the happy piece. Sometimes they overlap and sometimes they don't. But I'm a huge believer that we spend so much time at work that we spend more time with our workmates, at least before the pandemic, than we did with our families. And there's no reason to be miserable and there's no problem that can't be resolved with the exception of safety issues where sometimes you can't come back from those, unfortunately. But there's no reason, there's no reason not to be kind to each other. There's no reason to not be able to get through conflict and constructive manner. And when you have success, there's nothing wrong with celebrating that. You know, I love the, you know, putting pictures up of people in the plant and having music and saying thank you and you know, pizza parties and those sorts of things. You know, we used to set up informal competitions for 5s and give out people like a gold spray painted broom. Right. It was a matter of honor who got to have the broom at their, you know, at their center. Did it mean we weren't serious about the work or our jobs? Absolutely not. But I firmly believe you need to take your work very seriously, but yourself, not so much. And, and you know, playing, play, you know, not like football or things that are unsafe, but those types of things really foster creativity. And creativity is what's needed to solve problems. And there's a lot of scientific research about that.

How was it on your end of it, Shannon, when, you know, working hand in hand with folks as far as being part of that fun environment or that positive environment?

Yeah, it was great. I mean, Kathy sent such a great example for us to be able to be ourselves and she allowed us to, she really initiated that fun and allowed us to just let loose a little bit. So it was, it was great. Now, I will say not everybody was overly excited about our fun ideas all the time, but it, you know, it took some time to get there. It took some time to get people engaged because we were asking them to do everything differently. And so we had to ask them for, to build their trust. And then that's when people's personalities started to come out, when they started to see that, oh, wow, maybe this does work. And oh, my job is a little easier today. Maybe I can. You know, then they started to loosen up a little bit and started to have some fun. And as we got to know them as people, then, you know, we would have little jabs or, you know, when someone was wearing a Green Bay packers shirt and I would have my Detroit Lions shirt on, I would razz them a little bit. And so we.

Wait, wait, wait. Explain that one. Like, how would that work? If you're a Lions fan, you're like razzing. That's getting.

It's universal. Right. Like, everybody has the things they're loyal to. So, you know, having your favorite jersey day is not going to impact.

Yeah.

Quality or safety.

Yeah, for sure. I love it. I love it. So I'm wondering if maybe we could wrap things up. You know, let's say that there's a leader right now listening. Actually, I'm going to take this from two perspectives and you guys can decide on who answers which one. Let's answer the question from two Personas. A Persona of a frontline associate who is trying to make his or her work better. And maybe they don't have perfect support from leadership. Maybe it's not non existent, but it's just not perfect. Right. So let's speak to that person. And then let's also speak to a person who is a leader right now of people and he or she is trying to lead their organization forward. Let's just say from a lean perspective. So what advice do you have for both of those people? And I'll let you guys pick on who talks to who.

So I'll talk to the associate.

Okay?

Right. I think that if you're an associate, you need to make sure your voice is heard. You can do it, you know, politely. You can do it by getting involved. You can do it by, you know, being a great employee and offering your ideas in a way that's going to improve the business. And, you know, if you approach things with optimism, with, you know, not starting with, it's been this way for 50 years. You know, I've told 20 people they're not going to listen to me, you know, and sometimes that happens and, you know, that tends to turn people off. But if you can approach your leader or your team leader or your peers with good ideas, please make sure you're heard because we need everybody's ideas. Everybody in the plant has more than hands. They have heads, they have hearts and they deserve to contribute. So don't give up.

All right, so I will speak to the leader and what I would say is at every opportunity you can use your conversations with your employees as a touch point to get to know them as people and to express what we're trying to do and listen. And it goes both ways with what Kathy is saying. We have to as leaders, be servant and listen to our people. I think that's the biggest thing I have seen in my experience is listening and then following up. Because you can't just listen. You have to be able to get back to the people and say, I'm working on it or here's why I'm not working on it or here's what I'm doing about it and make sure they know their voices are heard if they do bring something up. And the positivity is a big deal in manufacturing is hard and it's a tough job, it's stressful and the people look to you as a leader to drive them in the right direction and build that trust. So I think that that's important to stay servant to your people and do what's best for them.

So I lied. I have one more question. It just popped in my mind as you were talking there. Shannon. I'm curious if one of you could offer what is your, you know, we're big on sort of scientific thinking, make predictions and seeing what actually happens and that sort of thing. So if you were to make a prediction or have a sort of a theory of how you see manufact play out in the Western world, as they say, over the next, I don't know, five to 10 years, what do you think is going to happen? Like do you have a hope or do you feel like it's on a downward trend? Upward trend, it's going sideways. What do you think?

I'm personally very optimistic about manufacturing in the Western world for a number of reasons. One is there is an understanding or a shift right now towards suppliers being close, where that's feasible. And so that's a huge opportunity for a lot of new businesses or businesses that are there to take advantage of and to provide hope and optimism. Two, I think that we're starting to get an understanding that it's important that we give people out of high school trades that they can, they can help with and contribute. And you know, factories are a great place for people of all sorts of skill sets for people with PhDs, for people, you know, who graduated from high school. And I'm starting to see us embrace those alternatives to four year educations for people who have, you know, a propensity towards technical skills. And finally I'M seeing companies invest in technology and, you know, so many factories that, you know, just started in a garage or whatever are really starting to understand automation. And so. And behind automation is people. We can't lose that. But I am starting to see those investments. So I'm very bullish on Western manufacturing.

Me too. I love it. I love it. Hey, what's the best way for folks to connect with both of you individually and then perhaps your consulting company and all the rest of it? What's the best way?

The best way is to connect with us on opsisters.com and there's one S.

Right in the middle.

One S. Okay.

Okay.

Yep. Ops sisters. Yep. One sisters.

Right. Op sisters. Yeah. Okay.

Sorry. I always think so. The story behind it is, you know, Kathy and I, throughout our journey, become more like sisters through our. Through this experience we've had together. And we've both obviously grown up in Ops, so that's where the name came from. And so it's all about relationships, realities and results. So I would say go to our homepage, you can get to our LinkedIn profiles. From there, you can follow us on LinkedIn @oppsisters. And that would be the best way. You can see all of the services that we're offering and reach out to us.

Love it. Awesome. Well, and we'll link to everything in the show notes. So this is episode, so just go to GembaPodcast.com, look for episode 417. And so listen, I want to have you guys back on because I'm sure there's like a million stories we could talk about down the road. So I don't want this to be the only time because I really enjoyed this and I love your energy and I love your optimism and your passion for lean is obviously we share that. So thank you for coming on.

Thank you, Ron. We love to come back anytime.

All right, you guys take care.

You as well. Thank you.

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