GA 423 | Lean and Human-Centered Design with Michael Parent

We try to empathize with that end user, empathize with what the customer is experiencing, what they want, what they desire, what they need. And then if you can effectively do that, the design of your product or your service or your process is going to have a greater value proposition for that end user.

Today, I'm very excited to welcome Michael Parent back to the show. Now, today, Michael and I explore a really interesting topic and something that I'm fascinated and something that I personally want to learn more about down the road. And that is what Michael refers to as human centered design. And it's very similar to what some folks like Richard Sheridan and Midlo Innovations talk about, high tech, anthropology and so forth. But it's basically about trying to understand the people on the end of our product or service and to empathize with them and how they might benefit and use and leverage our product or service. And what's especially interesting about Michael is that he's got a really strong Lean and Six Sigma background, and so he's able to couple it with this kind of concept of understanding humans better and really marry the two. He did write a book and we talk about it towards the end, but it's not a. Don't worry, this is not a sales pitch for his book. Although I feel like this book is probably something that we should all pick up because I think it'll make us better at what we're doing as Lean and Six Sigma practitioners. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 423. Again gembapodcast.com and look for episode 4, 23. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Michael, welcome back to the show. How are you?

I'm doing well, thank you.

All right, well, good.

How are you?

I'm doing well, yeah. Good to have you back on. So I was looking it up before we hit record that back in episode 339 you were on talking about applying Lean and Six Sigma to human resources. So that was a good one. But yeah, a few episodes have passed by. Now we're on 423 here. So welcome back. And I know you remember the kind of the rubrics of the show. We do like to get things going with our guest sharing a quote. So do you have one?

Yes, of course I do. So the quote that I have is from blessed Solanus Casey, who says gratitude is the first sign of a thinking, rational creature.

Oh, nice, nice. You know, we've been talking a lot about gratitude around Here. I talked about it on some podcasts recently and Rick Forman came in and we talked a lot about it. But yeah, I feel like this is. I don't know, for whatever reason, gratitude's been on my mind a lot lately. I don't know, because it's so easy to, you know, kind of get run down and the day to day and not take time to reflect on, you know, all the things that we should be grateful for. Now you don't have to wait till Thanksgiving either, you know.

That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's. I like this quote because it's. It's the first sign, you know, it's the first sign of a thinking, rational creature is to say, you know, as soon as you start reflecting in earnest, that should be the first thing that comes up is, man, I've got a lot to be thankful for. And particularly in what we do with Lean, it's not a solo enterprise, right? Is we've got so many people, stakeholders, and people who push barriers out of the way that it's really interdependent. An interdependent endeavor, for sure.

100%. Hey, Michael, remind us back from episode 339 about your background and how you got into this line of work and what you're up to these days.

Yeah, sure. So I'm calling in from Canton, Michigan, which is in between Detroit and Ann Arbor. I went to school in Ann Arbor at a dubious place called the University of Michigan. I got a degree. Just move on.

Move on.

Yeah, that's right. You know, somebody has gone to the University of Michigan because they'll tell you. Yeah.

And as we were talking, hit record. Congratulations on your victory. That's all good. Yeah, yeah.

So while I was there, we did not beat osu, but I did get a degree in Industrial and Operations engineering. So I've. I've been in this line of work essentially, you know, since I got out of college. Since we, we hit record in 2020, I have gotten a master six sigma black belt from Lawrence Tech University, which is also in the Detroit area. Yeah, thank you very much. And essentially I've also gotten an MBA from the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. And I've just been applying the lean Six Sigma framework and toolbox to all kinds of businesses and processes. And what we Talked about in 339 was, of course, how I had been applying those to human resources and the processes within human resources. So it's been a lot of fun, a lot of work.

Yeah, I love it. So today we're going to kind of focus in on this topic of a human centered design. So maybe let's just start with just a. Maybe an operational definition, like what is a human centered design?

Yeah, so human centered design, I think of it as a problem solving methodology, just like Lean and Six Sigma. And essentially what we try to do in human centered design is we try to empathize with the end user, empathize with what the customer is experiencing, what they want, what they desire, what they need. And then if you can effectively do that, the design of your product or your service or your process is going to have a greater value proposition for that end user. So you can probably already see there's a lot of similarities within Lean and within Six Sigma focused on value, focused on the customer, but certainly a fun topic as another approach to serving value to a customer.

Now, I know you're familiar with Richard Sheridan and Menlo and all those guys out there. Have you been there? Have you visited with Richard and his team?

I have not, no.

Okay. Do you know who they are? Menlo Innovations and Software developers.

I was just listening to Richard and 314. Yeah. Or 414. Yeah, yeah.

So they have something called high tech anthropologists is what they call them, and sort of sending out people out into the field before they develop up a piece of software or some application or whatever it might be. Like, one of my favorite stories was how they went out into the field and it was like a construction site and they were developing this, some sort of app that was going to run on an iPad or something like that. And then they realized that all the people wore these gloves. They're like, well, how in the heck are they going to work an iPad with all these gloves on? You know, like things like that you just don't think about all the time. So I'm curious, is human centered design similar to that or is there something different?

It's exactly the same thing. Right? You've got so much there just in those couple sentences. The technical word is ethnography. These high tech anthropologists do ethnography. It's so much better than just doing a focus group, right. Where you're hearing somebody respond with, yeah, I might do this, I might like this product, or et cetera, et cetera. But instead you're observing what somebody is actually doing. Swiffer, the creation of Swiffer, Procter and Gamble did exactly this. They were trying to go out and figure out how can we sell more cleaning product. Right. The actual liquid detergent that they use to Clean floors. And in doing it, they found out, man, it's really a hassle to fill that bucket up with water, wait for the water to get hotter, check the temperature of the water, add the correct amount of detergent, and they designed a product, the Swiffer, around making that process, making that cleaning experience better for the customer. So it's right on. You can think about in terms of lean in Six Sigma, right? There's elements of Gemba here. There's elements of going to the workplace and seeing how the work is actually done, not just waiting for a focus group.

So what made you interested in learning about this?

Yeah, so like I said, I had done some coursework in an mba, and one of the courses that I took was in Human Centered design. Design thinking is kind of another synonym to what we're talking about. And essentially I was blown away by the methodology that, like, the first thing I have to do, I still remember it, is I had to design a wallet. So, okay, you're going to design a wallet, and I have an idea of what that is going to look like. Right. And then I was paired up with a woman, and I tell you, what she needed for her wallet was very, very different than what I needed for a wallet. I needed something small that I keep in my back pocket that has a couple credit cards. She didn't have the same design constraints as me. She didn't have the same uses and utilities for her wallets. She can carry it around in her purse, so it can be a little bit bigger. She can have pictures in there that might be more relevant to her, where she is in her life and. And what she wants to share with people. And just seeing that and being able to empathize with somebody else really turns the whole design process on its head. And of course, you know, there are parallels here between what we do and the design thinking paradigm.

Yeah. Another story just popped in my mind. I think it's in the. I think it was in Toyota Way or Lean Thinking, one of those books where on the chapter on, like, Genji Ginbutsu talking about going, going and seeing and that sort of thing. And. And they're talking about the story. I think it was the Toyota Sienna May, where one of the engineers from Japan came and he wanted to drive a vehicle all over America and I think even into South America. And I remember he was talking about how, like, oh, my gosh, when you're driving through the Midwest, you know, Ohio or Michigan or whatever it was, and Indiana and the big open highways and how windy it was and blowing the van around. And then you just don't think about details like that until you go and experience what's going on, where your product or service is going to be used. So it's so interesting.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm familiar with the example. I haven't studied it or anything, but I remember there was also this element of caravanning the family around. This is a product that you wouldn't find in Japan at all because it's kind of an urban environment and just kind of where the product lives in. Its environment is so different from what Japanese engineers would be experiencing or what their paradigm might be.

Yeah, like cup holders, you know, like, I don't think they would have a need for that many cup holders, but they realize that that's a delighter almost, you know, having extra cup holders, you know.

Exactly.

So, yeah, good stuff. So obviously our audience is mostly lean, Six Sigma continuous improvement practitioners. So why should they care about Human Centered Design? How does it add value to what they're doing?

Yeah, I think it really enlightens and kind of helps us understand what we're doing better. So in studying Human Centered Design, you can really learn about what you're doing on the Gemba a whole lot better. Human Centered design has ways of categorizing the different people you might talk to. Are they a mainstream user? Is this somebody who's just kind of like, you know, using the machine, you know, or maybe if we're talking about consumer electronics just using the cell phone, versus somebody who might be like an extreme user, like somebody right on the cutting edge, who knows? Exactly. You know, they're getting the most out of that machine. They're getting the most out of their cell phone, perhaps. And you know, they have an understanding or a greater understanding of that experience of that product and the relationships you build with them, the conversations you have with them add different levels of value as you talk to them and as you go on the gambit with them. The extreme user is going to be that thought partner to take you to the next level, to take you to the what next. Whereas that mainstream user might be who you actually design it for. And you have to have both considerations in place. And there's far many more people you can go talk to. An expert like, like a professor or somebody who might study this. They might know the history better than some of these users. They might know the limitations or constraints of your environment. But all of these categories really can, can inform what you're doing, when you're doing a waste walk or when you, you know, go to the Gemba. I'll also say, ron, I thought of you or I thought of this when you were doing your 400th episode and you were talking a lot about, hey, we're really trying to do more quasi experimentation. We're really trying to, you know, have kind of this innovative spirit. And, you know, Human Centered design also has a tool that they call low resolution brainstorming or low revolution prototyping. And, you know, here it's just a method to really try something new, you know, no risks. But to learn fast, to fail fast, to learn quickly with very little, you know, actually tied up in the experience. And then you kind of pivot. It's. It's kind of like a pdca, but you've got something tangible that you can work with. So there's all kinds of tools that I really think, more than anything else, gives us context on what we're doing. You know, I love Lean, man. I love talking Lean because it's. It's just so. It's so ingrained into our human nature. You start to learning Lean and you're like, man, this is not just a set of business principles. This is like human nature that we're learning about visual management. And I think Human Centered design in a lot of ways informs what some of those things are at a deeper level.

Yeah, I want to. I want to for sure ask you before the end. So if I forget, you got to remember where people. Where we can learn more about just the same specifics of, like, you just talked about, you know, different Personas and whatnot. So I'm sure there's more we Lean and Six Sigma practitioners can go do learn about it. But before then, I want to know about, like, people. So, like, what about, like, you know, sometimes when we're trying to go invoke change in a organization or to some process or whatever it might be, there's people involved. Right. And there's change management that needs to be practiced from time to time, because not many people hate change. Most people hate change, myself included. I'm sure you hate change. Everybody hates it because it's not comfortable. So is there any sort of change management built into what we're doing with Human Centered design? Or maybe more people, empathetic kind of people, things going on in there? How does that work?

Yeah, I would say empathy is the goal of Human Centered Design, and that's true of the customer. I mean, that's kind of what we're getting at the end user. But it's also true of the team and Human Centered design, they might use a term multidisciplinary team versus cross functional team is how we might define it in Lean and Six Sigma. But it's essentially the same thing is we're trying to identify who the stakeholders are, identify who our sponsors are. So there's a lot in there that's very similar. Now when it actually gets to people management, I think there's a lot that we can learn as well in kind of the environment that we set up and how we interact with folks. And one of those things I'll just hit on briefly is kind of the obeya, the room where we get work done. Human Centered Design, it's all about failing fast. It's all about creating an environment where it's safe to fail. And I think that's really where that people perspective is so unique, is so challenging and probably is the most different from what we do from a process improvement standpoint. We're not interested really in, you know, visualizing our KPIs, but we are interested in generating ideas and understanding how ideas and themes can emerge from the interactions that we have. Again, always based off of the people, always based off of the GEMBA that we go and interact with. So I think there is a people perspective to it. And I think, you know, what Human Centered design does is it tries to create an environment that's inviting and facilitates just kind of this, this opportunity to fail with very little repercussions. And you can't, you know, you can't brainstorm, you can't be creative and also evaluate at the same time. You have to pick one or the other. And if you're constantly fearful of somebody evaluating you, you'll never get to that next level of really coming up with creative and innovative solutions. So I think there's a lot there in terms of, of how you manage your team and what your goals as a leader and a facilitator is in leading that team forward.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Fantastic. So I know that you've written a book. And so my question, I guess, obviously I think I don't want to set this up as, oh, it was a big sales pitch for Michael's book. But if we wanted to learn more as Lean and Six Sigma practitioners, I'm guessing the Lean Innovation Cycle, your book is a good place to kind of go and what else can we be doing as Lean as Six Sigma practitioners to learn more about this framework of Human Centered design?

I'll say I worked very hard on my book. Thank you. And essentially the book is set up kind of in two ways. The first half is really talking about how human centered design interacts with and works with Lean and Six Sigma. And I try to create a framework to conceptualize it and I throw some tools in there as well. The second part is really to understand how innovation exists and how it should exist within, within businesses in terms of strategy, in terms of, you know, the first mover advantage, all these other things. So that's, that's my book. You know, I'm sure we could throw something in the show notes for it. But I would also say that there are a number, a number of resources out there. Human centered design is certainly an up and coming, you know, problem solving methodology. IDEO. IDEO.org does free, I think twice a year, maybe three times a year, free training in human centered design where they'll partner you up with a multidisciplinary team. You'll walk through a problem, you'll, you know, it takes some work to get through this, but you'll go and you'll talk to people in your own network and find people in your own network who might be extreme users or mainstream users or experts in the subject that you're looking in and you'll create a solution to solving these problems. So there are a number of things like this out on the Internet, but certainly ideo.org, they are probably the most well respected name out there. Just Google Ideo. And you'll see everything that they've done from a design standpoint. Lots of work with Apple, lots of work in Silicon Valley. They're quite well respected. You know, I think that's certainly one area if you want to spend a little bit more money on it. I know the Stanford D school and I think MIT has kind of another school, their counterpart, they offer kind of this type of training at more of an intensive, I think, 18 month course or something like that. So lots of resources out there.

Got it, got it. Very good, very good. Yeah, we're actually recording this here and, and in March and, but, and I see your, your, your book, it's actually releases April 12th, is that right?

That's correct, yeah.

So this episode will be out after that so people can go grab it. So we'll, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. So I want to check it out myself because it sounds super interesting too. It's always just interesting to see, you know, almost the same song just sung from a different hymnal sometimes, you know, and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the things we didn't talk really that much about it, about how I got interested in human centered Design and Lean Six Sigma. But back in episode 339, we were talking about human resources and what's on the cutting edge and how can we apply Lean Six Sigma to this new area. That thought process really started to excite me is what can Lean and Six Sigma do next? Maybe not in the next five years, maybe not in the next 10 years, but 30 years from now. What is this, what is this cultural thing going to look like? How can it adapt? What does it need to take on? What does it need to retain? What are we allowed to change in the canon of Lean and Six Sigma? And what might we start adapting and see how it works out?

Yeah, yeah. No, it's exciting. I mean, just thinking about, you know, just, just sometimes I even feel like when we say Lean Six Sigma, we're almost kind of just almost constraining our movement a little bit, you know, because it's just these titles and these labels can just gets really kind of, I don't know, hone us in. Yeah, it's a Fishbone and you know, but it's so big, right? It's so big.

That's right. And you know, it's, it's. Our paradigm needs to be like what it was 30, 50 years ago where they were finding new tools and they were seeing what they could do with them. And hey, we've got this new thing, we've got this Kano diagram that I think came out in the late 80s, many years removed from the Toyota production system and it was kind of added on. And I think there's a lot of opportunity when you look at technologies, when you look at methodologies like human centered design, that we can really, we need that mindset of growth, you know, rather than just preserving what we've already done.

Yeah. 100%. 100%. Ah, good stuff, man. Well, I'm excited to check out your book, Michael. I mean, maybe we could wrap things up with, I don't know if you maybe have some final words of wisdom, speak to that Lean or that Six Sigma practitioner out there on, you know, and encourage them or maybe give some, some insight into how something they can do today to maybe practice a component of, of human centered design. Something tactical.

Yeah, I, I would, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a great prompt. I, I love it. I, I would say anybody who's practicing Lean in Six Sigma today, I would say go walk the Gemba, which is always the right answer for Lean and Six Sigma. But as you Go and walk the Gemba, really, you know, talk to somebody. I've worked in manufacturing environments, and I always felt like I would go on the floor and walk the floor, but not have an interaction with that person and really have a deep interaction with that person. Understand not just the process, not just what the person's doing or how they're doing it. Try to empathize with them. Try to figure out what emotions they're feeling in situations. How do they feel when the machine's running? Well, how do they feel when the machine breaks down, when there's a quality defect? If you're not in a manufacturing environment, maybe you're in healthcare or service. How do you feel when work is slow? Are you bored? Does that frustrate you? How do you feel when you're overwhelmed? And I think really getting at that empathetic level is going to inform what you can do from a process improvement perspective. You know, we already have a working design here to improve it. Maybe it's not just about reducing, you know, cycle time or reducing defects. Maybe it's about making that experience better.

Yeah.

And that's. That's what I would leave anybody with.

I love it. Good stuff. Michael, what's the best way if folks want to connect with you? Personally?

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, so that is the best way to find me. I'm a friendly guy and I accept all requests.

Okay.

You know, professionally, I have my own website, which is six sigma-consulting.com and if you'd like to get the book off of that website, it would just be that and then backslash books. So, yeah, feel free to reach out and strike up a conversation with me, please.

Yeah. Awesome. And we'll link everything up in the show notes. So if you're on your app, podcast app, probably just scroll down, you'll see the links there. Otherwise, you can go to GembaPodcast.com, look for episode 423. And as soon as you get done with this one and you order Michael's book, then head over. If you haven't listened to the previous one and episode, what was it? Three?

What, three three three nine.

Three three nine.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we'll link to that one as well, because I remember that was a. That was a fun one. So, yeah, good stuff.

Thanks, Ron.

All right, well, thanks again, Michael, and again, congratulations on your Wolverines. But, you know, just get ready, man, because it's coming, man. Man. And it's coming November, man.

You know, I'm. I'm afraid I'm afraid there's no hubris over here for sure.

That's all good. I'm just glad that, you know, we're at a point in the, in the world where we can, you know, kind of joke about college football and stuff like that. You know, it wasn't so long ago that we weren't doing that, you know, so. That's right. So that's right. Good stuff. All right, well, thanks again, Michael. Keep up the great work and yeah, let's connect again soon.

Absolutely. Thanks, Ron. Go blue.

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