GA 427 | The Hierarchy of Action with Ryan McCall

Working on your personal mission statement and putting that before any of the doing, before you plan your goals, before you kind of take those next steps and plot out what you're going to do. Having a solid, solid foundation and reason as to why is step number one. It's the foundation.

Today. I'm excited to welcome Ryan McCall to the show. Now, today, Ryan and I talk about a concept that Ryan calls the hierarchy of action. Now, if anybody's familiar with kind of Simon Sinek's Golden Circle, start with Y and all that kind of stuff. Good stuff. It's similar to that. But as you're going to hear, Ryan kind of builds on it a little bit and really makes it practical for us continuous improvement practitioners. And so we talk about what this hierarchy of action is. You know, things like, start with why, then we get into the what and then we get into the how. But then we dig in a little bit deeper into, like, why it is important and why the order is important. And towards the end of it, we got in some interesting conversations on how this type of thinking, this hierarchy of action, how it applies to, you know, even in our personal lives, not just at work, and. And how. How understanding our why is is so important. So really, really good stuff. I think you're going to enjoy this one. Show notes can be found over@gemba podcast.com look for episode 427. Again, gemba podcast.com and look for episode four to seven. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Ryan, welcome to the show. How are you?

I'm good, thanks, Ro having me. I'm excited to do this today.

My pleasure, My pleasure. All right, well, hey, so tell us a little bit about your background and how you first got involved in continuous improvement.

All right, so my background's in engineering design. We're for a small company, OEM of tractor manufacturing. Did design work. Loved that. Loved the engineering side. And then got involved in a Kaizen event as engineering support. Kind of really got into what we were doing, learning about it through the event experience, and then kind of fell in love there and dug in deeper and found my way to doing it full time.

Nice.

So that's kind of my. My brief journey into continuous improvement.

I like it. I like it. Yeah. Drank that little Kool Aid at the Kaizen event and that was it, man.

I was hooked. Yeah.

Well, that's great. That's great. Well, hey, at the beginning of every show, Ryan, I know you've listened to the show. We do like our gu guest to share a quote so do you have one?

I do. I have a quote. So this one's from Socrates, and it's wonder is the beginning of wisdom. It's just a reminder to myself to stay curious and don't assume.

I like it. I like it.

Which I found to be extremely helpful in the continuous improvement space.

Right, right. All right, well, hey, so today we're going to talk about what you're calling the hierarchy of action. And I especially love this topic and this concept and approach. And so I'm wondering if you could maybe just at a high level, explain what is the hierarchy of action?

So the hierarchy of action is. It's a communication method that gets people to take action. So one of the key things, doing any project or presenting any idea is a good way to kind of walk people through it in a way that matches, you know, their needs to get them to the point of taking action. So it's starting with why and then going to what and then getting into how. So in that way, you kind of start with the purpose and then you really start to envision the outcome. So really paint the picture of what we're doing, and then people will be ready to get into the how. And that's where you kind of get into, okay, what are we doing next steps that leads to the actions that you need to kind of get things done.

Yeah.

So it's a communication, I guess, strategy.

Yeah, yeah. Now, are you familiar with Simon Sinek's big talk, when he talked about why and all that? So it sounds very kind of similar to his Golden Circle concept. Right? Is it?

It is very, very similar to the golden circle. So I'm not inventing anything here. I'm kind of soaking in stuff I've read everywhere, real life experience, working with teams and really trying to learn from the people that are already good at it.

Yeah.

And then frame it out in a way in my mind that I can remember it, that makes sense to me, and then I can apply.

Got it, got it.

That's kind of where this came from. A lot of sources.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I like it. I like it. So, I mean, so how. I mean, how did you. I mean, obviously many of us have seen the kind of the video, the famous TED Talk video of Simon Sinek and all that. But how did. For you and your journey, how did you develop this, this hierarchy of. Of action? Like, how. How did it come to you?

So when I got into the continuous improvement role I'm in now, started having to work with or getting to work with project Teams. And that was a very new, new experience to me is using, I guess, influential leadership to work with teams to, to kind of take action on some of these. So, you know, having to develop that skill set, I kind of dove into just learning. So a big way that I start to get into anything is I obsess over it. Go find all the books, go find the people that are good at it, dive in headfirst and try and learn how do you, how do you lead a team? And looking for other, I guess strategies or examples or you know, methods for leading a team, I came upon a few that kind of made sense to me that I would try. So I kind of, you know, understand them, then go try them with people, see how it works. And then through doing that over and over, I kind of landed on this, this method here. And a big, a big part of it's called the natural planning model, which I borrowed from gtd, Getting Things Done, which is a book.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Are you familiar with that? Yeah. So his idea and the way he explained that really was really helpful. And then another big key component to this, when you get into the how and kind of understanding or working with the team was using the kata coaching cycle. So it works really well, coaching one on one. And I've worked with actually Steve Kane on that and so I applied it to the team. And how does this work? It works really well. One on one. Can we apply it to a team setting and get really good results? So kind of using those two frameworks along with the golden circle and then just working with the team and developing kind of this, this high level idea of how to communicate, you know, your big idea to somebody else.

Yeah. What's hard about this is, you know, I've been at this for a number of years and it's so easy to get this backwards. So, and we'll, we'll, maybe we'll link to. You've written up a blog article. I don't know if we could link that in the show notes or something like that, but you have a nice kind of triangle or diamond or a pyramid if you will. At the base we have why. And then in the middle it's what? And then the top is how. So why Start with why, then go to what. Then go to how. But it's so common and so easy to get it backwards and start at how and what. Those could be interchangeably sometimes. And then maybe we'll get to the why right at the end, if at all. But it's so common, like even just Presenting. Oh, I just went to a conference and learned about this thing called 5s or whatever. Right. And so you're all excited and you come back and you say, hey, there's this thing called 5s, and I think we should do it. And here's how we do it. We start by sorting out, you know, and get into the. Get into it. Right. And then somebody's. Stand your back and be like, why are we doing this, man? You know, can we not send that guy to conferences? Because every time he comes back, he's got a new idea.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's so easy to get it flipped around.

I do. You bringing that up kind of reminds me of the. The tools first approach. A lot of times that comes when you're. When you're applying lean is you look at those tools first. That's really. That's getting into the how.

Yep.

And you're kind of glossing over the why and the what, which. I'm glad you brought that up. Kind of the foundation of the pyramid. Why we have to understand the purpose behind things before we're able to accept taking action on something.

Yep.

So it's really important to kind of have that as a base. But, yeah, it's. It is very easy and very common to skip. Definitely skip. Why some people get into the what. Right. Jump right into painting the picture. Here's what we're going to do. Yeah. I think that's where it's very common as well. We're going to go do this. And there's still. You're leaving out the purpose if you don't have that why. For people to kind of get behind and understand.

Right.

It's very difficult for them to willingly go along with you on your journey.

Right. Now, what's interesting, you're familiar with twi, right? I mean, you and Steven working together a little bit. So, you know, in TWI and job instruction, we talk about, you know, like, key points, and then eventually we get to the reasons, you know, that we're doing this.

So.

So that's sort of the why. Right. But what's interesting, even in that methodology, it's like the second or third. The third round, really, of kind of going through a new step to where you get to the reasons and to the why. So there. It's interesting that they. They didn't. They didn't actually lead with it. Right. But they get to it quickly. Right. And you don't finish the session without knowing why are we doing those particular steps. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on is it okay to possibly kind of go with what and how as long as you quickly get to the why, or do you think you should always open with the why? What do you think?

Yeah. So with this and any other framework that I'm kind of working with, I always try and keep in mind it's a map, it's a reference tool. So if you. Where I found this a lot is you kind of get into conversation, oh, we should do this and this and this, and then you kind of get lost. You want to keep in mind we got to get back to why. So absolutely. In twi, as long as we're going back and quickly, you know, remembering. Okay, well, why are we doing that?

Yep.

And just asking that question and kind of getting back to the foundation of why is really good, because you can either root it in a really good purpose or sometimes you realize that, you know, you've gone on a tangent, that it doesn't really apply to something that needs focus right now.

Yeah. Almost think about, you know, parenting. You know, I don't know if you have kids, Ryan, but I got. I got kids. And, you know, I've got a range, you know, from 19 all the way down to 7, you know, and. And trying to communicate and influence is very different depending on the age and what they got going on in their life. But, you know, trying to open with why before we lay down the what and the how and all the rest of it, it's super important there. But even then, sometimes the kid or in a professional circumstances, the colleagues that we're working with, sometimes they don't necessarily buy into the why. So what do we do then?

That's a really good question. So I guess I'm going to have to lean on. At least my experience is it's a good litmus test. So if you've got. You've got this really good idea, right. What you want to do is what I've found also using this framework to think about what you're doing, whether it's a problem or a project or whatever, really thinking about it is going in and, okay, how do I structure my why? And it kind of goes in with the A3. Thinking that first block that why are we doing this? When you're going out in front of the team and you go to present this idea, hey, here's the why. If you're not getting a little bit of feedback or excitement, then maybe you got to work on that purpose a little bit. You know, I don't. I don't Think it's necessarily a bad thing. It just means, hey, this isn't. Maybe it's not important. Maybe you haven't figured out how it applies to them. You know, what. What's important to them? What's your point? Yeah, so sometimes it's either a good indicator of either a poor idea or not fully thought out in a very clear way. And it's kind of an indication that you gotta go back to basics here and let's understand a solid reason for doing this.

Yeah, like, I guess I like me personally, when I'm trying to communicate a why to someone, whether it's my kids or again, like a coaching client or somebody like that that we're working with here at Gemba Academy is, you know, explain my take on the why, why we're doing this or why this is important or whatever it might be, and then almost pausing and putting it back to them and say, what do you think? Do you agree? Is that valid? And then almost just pause and let them kind of communicate back. Because then if there is any uncertainty or confusion or because sometimes what's happening is even. Yeah, he's giving me the why, but I know this what and how is coming real fast. And they're scared of the what and the how. Right. And they can't. They can't get over the fear of the what and how. And so, you know, having that. I don't know, that, that time to just let the why kind of set in, it's. It's hard sometimes. You know, Simon makes it easy by drawing it on a little flip chart. Well, yeah, that's nice for Simon on the stage, but, you know, he's not dealing with my, my 19 year old, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the something that I picked up doing the projects and actually listening to our plant manager here, he's great with people, so I always lean on him when. When working with people on, you know, how to influence others to kind of take action. He had a concept of planting the seed. So a lot of times you were kind of getting that is they're anticipating the what and the how, that they're not necessarily on board or they just need time to process it. I think when you were talking about that silent period, so he has this idea of planting the seed. So go. And I think this is part of TWI as well. Go out a week before you're gonna have maybe a kickoff meeting or you're going to invite them to this presentation where you're going to present this new project or idea and just Kind of give them a little, give them a little elevator pitch. Hey, I'd like your help. Here's kind of why we're doing it and here's kind of what I'm thinking. That elevator pitch, that sentence long summary, just to kind of put a little bug in their ear that, hey, this change is coming and I want your help. And then that's a good place also to kind of gauge, gauge their reaction on the purpose and maybe you can go back and adjust before you kind of go all in, which is good too. But I found that just letting people know it's coming, really leaning on them and asking for their help and clarifying your thoughts and your vision on it, is a great way to get things started with others. I think having that time to digest it and maybe go through some of those stages of grief, right? Yeah, go through some of those stages away from face to face time and really accept it. And then you can start to move forward after they've had some time to process it.

Well, yeah, and borrowing from twi, we put the learner at ease. Right. And so that's kind of what we're doing there. Right? We're sort of putting them at ease, giving them an opportunity and being respectful, really. Because you know, change is too hard for anybody. Right. Even these early adopters, change can be hard. Right. So the more that we can do to. Yeah, like you said, I like that plant the seed analogy. So I'm curious, Ryan, if you have any maybe examples to where you've seen your, you know, you've used this actual concept, maybe with an actual example or maybe some other folks and how they've, how they've, you've seen them use this concept. Do you have any stories or case studies? I mean, don't have to use names or places or anything like that, but yeah. Got anything?

Yeah, so I've used it on several projects myself. But something that happened recently and kind of where a lot of this got started was I was working with a manager here and he wants to start some project teams with his group, with his, his team. And he's been involved in a lot of the projects I've been leading. And you know, he said, hey, you've had some success. It seems like you have a good idea of, of what you're doing. You've learned a lot through the past couple of years of doing these and the ones I've been a part of. Can you come kind of teach my team some real high level basics on kind of leading their own project teams and so that's where I kind of put together this hierarchy of action with a little bit more detail on kind of the facilitation side for them, because a lot of this is new. And it was really neat to see. You know, they were very nervous about leading project teams. It's their first one for all of them, but one in particular, she really took this kind of why, what, how to heart almost too far. You know, I said, there's a map and you kind of. So she was really sticky. I got to get a good why, you know, I really need to understand the what. And so I was working with her, but she was very, very nervous going into her first meeting, and she got with the team, you know, kind of presented the why, went into the what, started the vision, and, you know, really painting the picture. And the. The team was really excited. I mean, she had them inspired instantly by starting off with that why. It was really powerful. And she, you know, in deeply thinking about it a lot, she was able to figure out what. What mattered to this team. You know, how can I make it really important to them? And, you know, it says she was going in really nervous, and afterwards I happened to see her in the hallway and she's. She's giving me a thumbs up and smiling and, you know, mouth, oh, it's awesome. It was great. And just seeing somebody, you know, use this to help frame out their thinking, gain some clarity, and have enough confidence to step in front of a group for the first time, use it, have it execute for them, and then see them excited and growing because of it. And that was, for me, that was very exciting. But it's also kind of a testament to just following this framework in your own mind, but also dealing with others, even for people new to leading, was really effective. Yeah, that was kind of a. Well, that's something recently that's been really fun.

Oh, that's really cool, man. And it's so. I know it's so fulfilling to see others, you know, sort of take, you know, some ideas that you've had and that you've. You've rolled out and see it work, you know, I mean, that's that multiplier effect, right? That's what's so powerful about that, you know, and the other thing that was in my mind is like, with that young lady there going out and starting her very first project team meeting, you know, with this framework, what an advantage she has. You know, like, she has no bad habits to undo like the rest of us have had to, you know, sort of reprogram the neural pathways in there that haven't always been laid correctly, you know. And so yeah, she's got a huge, huge advantage. Same thing with our kids. You know, if we can get them thinking about why, why, why and then, and then the what and the how, boy, they'll just gonna have such a, such a leg up, you know, than to what we all had when we were first going into this.

So.

Good stuff.

Yeah, I think it's just having that again, Simon Sinek really just having that purpose, really having clarity around the reason why you're doing what you're about to do. You know, having a good intent really goes a long way and it seems to really resonate with people and working with teams.

Have you used this? I'd be curious not to ask any like, personal questions, but like for yourself, like even for your own life, like, you know, thinking about a why and then, and then a what and a how, you know, just as you lead yourself, lead your family and all that. What about that? What do you think about that?

I do. So this is a, it's a. For me personally when I started thinking about this and kind of putting a framework around it, you start to see it in all sorts of places and then you start to see it being applied in other places too. So for me, it really started in the project. Thinking about it, really understanding the why for the project before I dive in really helped gain clarity and again set that foundation for the entire project. Going into kind of life goals, you're probably familiar with seven habits and then think and grow rich.

That kind of Napoleon Hill.

Yep, yep. The self development, self improvement. So a big thing there is always understanding your purpose, working on your personal mission statement and putting that before any of the doing, before you plan your goals, before you kind of take those next steps and plot out what you're going to do. Having a solid, solid foundation and reason as to why is step number one. And it, it's the foundation. And using that to kind of plan my future, you know, in my life goals and where I want to be 1, 3, 5, 10 years from now has been really helpful as well. So it's a, it's. I said it's kind of, it's a really high level framework to just keep in mind that you can apply to anytime you're going to go do something. Right. Really? Yep. Really spend the time to understand it first.

Yep. No, I love it. I love it. Good stuff, man. On a. Just a side random thought. It's been a long time since I read Think and grow rich. I've actually read it a couple times as a real young guy. And then get a little bit older and you read it from a different lens kind of thing. What do you think the. The secret in the book is? Do you, you know, like, do you always talk about there's a secret like, that's hidden in the pages or whatever? Do you. What do you.

What do you think? You know, I haven't thought about that in a little while. If I had to. If I had to say it right now, I really keep coming back to. And this isn't just to go with the rest of the program, but he talks about definiteness of purpose. Can't say that word. But having that. I don't remember the phrase he used, but that mission. Right. And writing it down and looking at it every morning. I think having that much clarity and focus around one specific mission statement starts to kind of like the secret. The other book. Yeah, the secret. You start to. Your life starts to fall in line that way. Not on accident. You just. You kind of notice opportunities that you never would.

Right.

And it's not. It's not magic. You know, when I went out and got my car, it's a 4Runner, right. I never noticed one before. You buy the 4Runner now. They're all over the street. Yeah. And it's not, you know, it's not magic. It's not like they all of a sudden appeared. It's. Right now I have this. Whatever my subconscious is attuned to this.

Yes.

This vehicle. And I see them all over the place.

Yes.

I think it's the same. Same effect just on your life, which can be really powerful. Yes. And I think that's what he. That's what he's talking about.

I think you could be right, man. I. I don't know, man. I don't know. For 100, I, like, read that thing. It's like, come on, what is it? It's probably one of those unanswerable questions. It just they doesn't want you to think, you know.

Yeah, I did the same thing. I'm googling what's the secret?

Yeah. And guy in LinkedIn, you know, of course he knows, Right.

You know, here's my treatise on it.

Right?

Exactly.

Well, good stuff, man. Well, hey, this has been a lot of fun, man. I appreciate you coming on Ryan and sharing this hierarchy of action. And so we want, I guess, the call to action for everybody. Start with why. Then we go to what? And then we go to how. Right. And rinse and repeat and it really knows no boundaries. It'll help us in all areas of our life, professionally, personally and everything in between.

So. Absolutely.

Good stuff, man. Hey, what's the best way for folks to connect with you?

So I'm on LinkedIn, Ryan McCall. And that's, that's going to be the best source.

Okay. Yeah. And we'll, we'll link to link to it here in the show. Notes. This is episode 427. So GembaPodcast.com let's look for episode 427. And Ryan, man, thanks for coming on and keep up the great work.

Thank you, Ron. I really enjoyed this and I appreciate your time and I had a great time. Thank you.

All right, take care.

All right, bye.

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