GA 430 | The Importance of Empathetic Leadership with Bhavana Bartholf

People want to feel seen, heard, and valued. And when people have differing opinions and they're going back and forth, it's because they don't feel like their point of view or who they are is being acknowledged and seen.

Today, I am excited to welcome Bhavna Bartov to the show. Now, Bhavna works for Microsoft as a global head of digital and sales strategy. And as a turns out, Bhavna is going to be kicking off the upcoming AME association for Manufacturing Excellence conference that's going to be in Dallas. October, was it October 17th through the 20th. And she's the opening keynote presenter and so really excited for this episode that you're about to listen to because she's fantastic. We go into her story of how she, how she arrived at Microsoft, including some of her background. She grew up in India. And then we just get into lots of different topics, including just opening up with sort of a little bit of a softball, like, what does leadership mean to you? Maybe that's not a softball, but we just, we kind of entered into the conversation with leadership that then evolved into culture and then things like trust. And I even asked Bhavna, like, what do you do when someone breaks your trust or harms a relationship with you, whether professionally or personally? How do you regain that relationship, regain that trust? And so we talked about a lot of different topics in this podcast, and I think you're really going to enjoy it. So show notes, which include links to be able to connect with Bhavna, can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 430430. Also, if you want to, if you haven't registered for the AME conference, you should. We'll be there for sure and as will Bhavna. And again, it's October 17th through the 20th. Just go to ame.org and if you want to save 15%, just use the coupon code GEMBA15 15 GEMBA15. That'll save you 15% on the registration. So again, ame.org and use code GEMBA15. All right, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Bhavna, welcome to the show. How are you?

I am well, Ron, and thank you so much for having me. I've heard so much about the show and had the opportunity to listened to quite a few of the episodes and honored to be here.

Awesome. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Well, if you listen to the show, you know that we like to kick things off right out of the gate with our guests sharing a quote. So do you have one?

I do. So, one of my favorite quotes, and I think this is based on maybe how I like to live my life, is I love the quote that's attributed to. I think it's Maya Angelou, which says, I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. And that, to me, matters on how I show up every day.

I love that quote. I've used it before, and it's so powerful. If you could think about it, because it's so easy to misplace how important it is, how we treat one another. Even if you don't agree with one another, doesn't mean you have to be ugly or, you know, toxic or whatever the word is. Right. Because it's not going to help. Right. So, yeah, I love that quote. So good. Now, I'm really excited, Bhavna, to. To meet you in person in October because we will both be in the same place, and that is at the AME conference in Dallas. It's October 17th through the 20th. And I understand you might be kicking the whole thing off. Is that right?

Yeah, no, I'm super excited. And I know I've been working with the AME team on this to be able to be the keynote speaker that kicks off the day and love the topic and the focus on enabling disruption. And I think the pandemic has definitely tested all of us in that realm and kind of accelerated innovation through that process as well. And so really excited to be able to be there, be able to meet everyone. And they have an amazing, amazing lineup of speakers and even I'm excited to listen to as well.

Yeah, I cannot wait. I cannot wait. So, all right, well, Bhavna, I wonder if we could just maybe jump right in. And I'm really curious now. I have done some, some research on you and I've listened to some podcasts that you've been on in the past. So I know a few of these answers, but our listeners may not. So I'm wondering if you could just talk about your background a little bit and, and then how you. How you arrived in a into the States and then. And then obviously what you're up to these days at Microsoft.

Yeah, definitely. So I'm currently the global head of digital and sales strategy for line of business within Microsoft, called our commercial solution areas that's responsible for technical selling and our strategy across the globe. I've actually spent. It's crazy as I say it, but 21 plus years at Microsoft, obviously I tell everyone I started when I was 10, but it's been somewhere. But I've been with the company and had the opportunity and pleasure to be a part of a lot of various different organizations and functions within the company and also have seen the transformation through all three of our CEOs, which is a great experience in itself. I grew up in India. I spent most of my life there, actually. I grew up with my grandparents because my parents were in different countries as I grew up. And I have learned a ton. And there's a huge component of who I am today and how I operate that comes from that strong foundation. I came to the US to do my master's and then have been with Microsoft ever since. And it's crazy to think, but now I've lived in North Carolina longer than I have anywhere else. And so this is home at this stage.

Wonderful, wonderful. What version of Microsoft Word was in place 21 years ago? My goodness, I don't even know.

I don't even think I would know the answer to that. Microsoft Access that I think no one has heard of anymore, but that was the product I supported when I first came into the company.

Hey, now, I've thrown down on some access databases over the years, man, you know, I got in there and that's a powerful little tool. Right? There you go. Oh, goodness gracious. All right. Well, hey, you know, I don't know what exactly what you're going to talk about at ame, but I'm curious. You mean, obviously you're an extremely established leader there and one of the most powerful companies in the entire world, so I'd really like to pick your brain just on the whole idea of leadership. And I'm curious, maybe just right out of the gate, just like, what does leadership mean to you?

Leadership, for me, and I will say this is something that I've always believed in. And I kind of shared my original quote in that context. Leaders, to me, is someone that can inspire and enable people to feel like they can achieve more than they believe they can. And that's been foundational for me around how I've operated. And the concept, which I think now is a little bit more popular but wasn't so much so when I was a leader earlier on, is the importance of empathetic leadership. And I know Satya, as our new CEO has truly kind of embraced it. But for me, and I'll put that in context, empathy is about seeing the world from another person's point of view. That leads to new ways and better ways of thinking, being and doing, whether that's for that individual or for someone else. And over time, empathy has become one of the most powerful. Connecting and trust. Well, I guess it always has been, but in the context of leadership, it's kind of foundational to building trust, connection, and belief. And so for me, that's foundationally. For me, what I believe is strong leadership.

Yeah. How do you practice empathy when you're maybe in a situation that, I don't know, it could be maybe it's charged up, maybe two people aren't seeing eye to eye on a particular topic, whether it's professional, political, I don't know anything because there's a lot of that these days. So how do you practice empathy in those tough situations?

So for me, foundationally, people want to feel seen, heard, and valued. And when people have differing opinions and they're going back and forth is because they don't feel like their point of view or who they are is being acknowledged and seen. And I've learned now, giving people the space to share whatever they're looking to share, acknowledging it. And your choice of words like disagreeing right off the bat or using words like from my perspective, so you take everyone else out of the mix makes a big difference in how those conversations get moderated, managed, and what I would say, minimized.

Yeah.

And, you know, at work and even in everyday life, that's something that I try to do, you know, whether it's, you know, in my own personal conversation, sometimes even, you know, with your own kids situation is your kids just want to feel heard. And so learning to just kind of put yourself in check a little bit during those times and working through it makes a huge difference. And so even in work situations, I've learned that's a lot of what you end up seeing is everyone. Everyone's moving at such a crazy pace. Obviously, people are working hard. Many, especially through this pandemic, are in states of burnout. And so that cognitive ability to really pause and listen isn't everybody's strongest suit. And so making that space and reminding someone of the importance of it can really help in many situations.

Yeah. That's why I guess we have two ears and one mouth, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. You know, and one of the podcasts that I was listening to with you on it, you. You actually mentioned your. Your grandfather. And I know I'm kind of zigging, but I, I feel perhaps it ties into all this. What were some of the lessons that your grandfather taught you along, you know, as a young girl? And then, you know, obviously into adulthood.

So it was amazing. So just to foundationally put that in context too. So my grandfather was a self made man and he, you know, came from nothings and he was raised by his sisters and he had only sisters and he was the youngest male. So the things that he believed, you know, India is a very, you know, is a country that has a lot of gender specific norms and expectations and in an environment like that, he really instilled a strong foundation on the importance that women can achieve anything and that I should be curious and challenge status quo and just don't take anything as is. And one of the biggest ones for me that was, I would say, extremely foundational that I started to share was I want to say I was maybe 11 years old and he asked me about religion and he was asking me what my religion was. And it's a very typical subject. You're not going to talk about that openly. So you know, I was a little confused in my mind. He was like, what is your religion? I was like, well I'm related to you, so obviously the same thing. And I say I'm a Hindu. And he goes, why? And you know, I still think he's messing with me at 11 years old. And you're like, I don't know because I'm born one, I'm part of this family and you know, I'm stumbling along the way. And then he really pushed, you know, in that context of. But is that what you actually choose and is that what you believe? I will say that was a pivotal point for me in when I realized that I actually had the power of choice, which a lot of times as human beings for one, we don't assume that then as a woman that's an additional layer of I actually have a say in this stuff and I control what is related to myself. And at the time I had said, well, I don't know, you know, what to think. And he did say, he was like, well, I really need you to be curious. I want you to go educate yourself about, you know, all the religions that are out there. And I want you to make a choice. And the choice doesn't have to be you pick one, you figure out what works for you. As you've leaned in, you've been curious and taken the time to understand it. And that was extremely powerful for me. And that's one of many, I would put it in that context, but that one is very foundational to me because it helped me recognize the importance and the power of self advocacy, which is a lot of. And it's crazy. It took me, you know, years into my career. I felt like I didn't. I did that, a good job of remembering and managing that. And then life happens and you have all this responsibility, you know, in your career, in your personal lives, and all of a sudden you're advocating for everyone else but yourself and women. And one of those situations where as women, if I look at myself, I was in denial because it was one of those. Of course, I self advocate because I can speak my mind, I'm confident, I'm strong. But it took the pandemic when I really paused and realized I somehow forgot those life lessons and I was making excuses, and I realized I had just gotten lost along the way. But revisiting that, and as I've had conversations, that one, for me is one of the most foundational, powerful lessons. And then in addition, obviously, there was many more. You know, he always believed in, you know, life's too short, so you've got to have fun along the way. And you just live every day like it's your last. You'll have no regrets. And I think there was. I remember when my husband first met me, that was the first thing he was like, no one is so happy. Like, this is not okay. Context is like that. No regrets is important. And so that I will say, came from him.

Wonderful, wonderful. Now, when we think about leadership, then obviously culture is a big part of it. And you know, one of my favorite definitions of culture is that culture is what happens when no one's looking. Right. In an organization. So, like, what. What does culture mean to you? And then how do you, as a leader, go about fostering that. That culture that you desire to see in the organization?

Yeah. And I think, Ron, you said it really well. Culture is what happens when no one's looking. And then the piece that I'd add to that is it's what people actually experience. You can't tell them this is what the culture is, and their experience of it is very different. And so it's got to be something that everyone experiences, and when they experience it, we all have a common experience. That's my biggest thing in culture in itself, then I know we. Peter Drucker has always said, culture eats strategy for breakfast any day. And the biggest learning we've had, like, over time, having been at Microsoft as a company, there were periods of time where we were all defining our own culture and our culture in organizations that I was either leading at the time was a representation of who I believed I was and what I wanted to See, in the organization and I was always foundational about people from a, from a people concept. But the reality is me having my own version, another person in a different organization having their own version of culture. And at a company level, if you asked any of us prior to Satya coming in, what was our company culture, I don't think any of us had an answer. All of our answers were very different. And what I've learned as Microsoft's gone through their transformation and change is the importance of, of defining a clear and consistent culture and culture for us. What we also Learned being a 40 year old company going through transition and change is the biggest differentiator in staying competitive in the market. We could have talked about innovation. All of the other stuff is great, but that context of culture, eat strategy for breakfast is very foundational. If you don't have the right culture where people feel empowered, trusted and valued, it's very difficult to make everything else happen. It could, but it may be a short term win versus playing the long game. And so culture, for me, that's where I kind of go back to is it's got to be consistent. Everyone should know what we're working towards so you can hold the company, the leaders and the business accountable in, you know, living that culture. And people have to truly experience it to, to, for it to be true.

Yeah, yeah, you meant, you've mentioned trust multiple times so far. So obviously it's a super important concept for you as a leader. Something that's really difficult in life is when someone, whether it's a colleague or, you know, significant other or a child or whoever it is in your life breaks their, breaks your trust. They do something and harms you or harms a situation. What do you do as a leader in a situation where trust has been broken or fractured or damaged? How do you go about building that back up?

I love that question, Ron, because. No, everyone asks how do you build trust? But no one ever looks at a situation where trust has been broken because that is the toughest one to recover from because you have different types of people, people that start with a high amount of trust to people that you have to earn their trust. And in either one of those situations that's a lot easier than once trust is broken. Both of those situations you're having to rebuild from scratch.

Yeah.

And when people lose trust in you, it's not even when you've, you know, done everything you can to demonstrate credibility, to demonstrate trust, people don't take it till it's consistent. And so that means it's a longer. It takes a lot longer to regain and rebuild trust. So what I usually like to do in situations when this has happened is one acknowledging what has happened. Because a lot of times when trust is broken or no one communicates it, you just. The individual whose trust you broke just makes the decision, you know, personally, that I'm not going to trust this person anymore. But you never actually have the conversation with the individual, even with your kids, you know, you said spouse. And in that, in those scenarios, it's, there's something that's happened. You may talk about the situation, but you don't actually talk about the feeling and what exactly caused the distrust. Because we sit in this layer of assumptions where people come at it from different aspects. Where in many scenarios trust could be broken completely based on a baseline misunderstanding, but nobody ever communicates or talks about it, which is an issue for me. In those scenarios, the starting place is talking about it. Let's talk through the actual situation and take the time to listen to both sides. The individual who is impacted, whose trust you lost and then the individual that broke their trust. And we've got to get comfortable in having those uncomfortable conversations. Now, I know it's not for the person who's trust you broke, they're past it, they just want to move on. But the reality is if we don't take the time, it's going to be a pattern that continues to surface and then it creates a lot of unconscious biases as well, because then you're going to expect that of people that haven't even done anything. So there's a benefit for both sides to lean in. The second thing for me is then building these small milestones of expectations of progress in what you would need to regain trust. And at times, I tell a lot of folks, sometimes it's, especially in a work situation, you may not 100% trust that person again, but we have to work together. So what would need to be true for us to move on to getting to the right level of partnership and alignment so that we can all work together and be successful and so working through those milestones. And I know nobody ever wants to have those conversations because they're always uncomfortable and no one wants to talk about feelings, which is fine. But I think the importance of that communication and the expectations is important as we have to rebuild it in any scenario, both personally and professionally.

I like that. I mean, I think the key that you've mentioned in there is just communicate, right? So often if we are, we are harmed. If or we chose to, we choose to be harmed. Right. Because it's a choice. Right. Whether you are harmed or not. But if we choose to be harmed and we don't communicate with the other person, you're going to just carry that forever. Right. And that's heavy. Right. When you have to carry these things. So I like that. The whole concept of communicating and listening. Yeah. And then, you know, even contrition, I suppose, can play a role. Right. If someone is genuinely sorry for what they did, it's important for that. That process to be communicated. Right. So, yeah, wonderful. You know, we don't record the audio as part of these podcasts, but you have such a. You have this. You've had to smile on your face. Like, you know, the people don't know this, but we tried to do this podcast a day or two ago, and we were having technical problems on Gemba Academy's end, which was extremely embarrassing with a Microsoft executive here, I can't get our technology to work, but you had a big smile on your face there. So I'm wondering, you know, let's say you have a bad day, because I'm sure you have a bad. You have bad days, right? Everybody does. You have a really bad day. Like, what do you do to, I don't know, like, recharge or renew your spirit, you know, to come back in the next day with a smile on your face. Do you have any strategies for that?

I will. So that. That'll say, you know, it's funny, you know, Ron, you say that about smiling because it's. I do that a lot. And I know I've gotten feedback both ways. Right. Like, hey, you smile too much. People are not going to take you seriously, or, you know, why do you smile so much? And it's crazy because you brought up my grandfather. So I'm just going to hit on that for a second, and then I'll answer your question on how to reset and recharge. I grew up with him. I mean, he was a doctor, so his concept was always, it takes more muscles to frown than it does to smile. So you never know who needs your smile today? Because sometimes it's never you. It's about the people that just. You're walking past even a smile to a person that a complete stranger could completely change their lives. And that was how he foundationally lived and believed. And so I've done that all along. And so even when people are like, as a leader, you shouldn't be smiling so much. I was like, I was raised to do this, and it's not Going to change who I am. So that part stays there. Now, the one thing I will say, like, when I have those bad days, and this is where it's interesting, I'm one and it's funny. I'm married to a psych, you know, a psychotherapist. So he's all about talk about your feelings. But the reality is I like to process in my own head, right? Like, what's causing it. And sometimes just putting my own self in a timeout and just taking the time to reset or letting someone know, hey, you know, if you need me to do a call today, I'm just going to be off video. Or can we reschedule just making that space? Because as humans, sometimes we don't want to process what we're dealing with, and we feel like we're obligated to have to do everything. To me, it's important to just sometimes reset and do what gives you energy. I love cooking. I like being able to just take the time and do. Culturally, everything we do is around food from India, but I love and enjoy cooking. And then that joy of just making a meal and being able to see somebody else enjoy it kind of, for me, resets me. Or being able to just get away with family or friends when no one actually knows what work's doing. And so giving me that perspective, that's different. Because the biggest thing that I've learned is none of these problems are big in the grand scheme of what if you put things in perspective on what somebody else may be dealing with. And so our problems always seem bigger to us. But if you take the time to really pause and how small we are in the grand scheme of the broader globe, it puts a lot of things in perspective very quickly, and it gives you the ability to reset and recharge then working. I mean, I like working out in the morning, so I do that as a daily thing. That just helps get me the right level of energy, I think, for the rest of the day. But sometimes a little reset or just a little laughter on something from someone, that's what I love about it. All the people that I work with is we have so much fun, regardless of how crazy it is. And I always tell folks, like, none of this stuff should matter at the end of the day. Like, we don't need a bad day. And so that's at least how I recharge and reset. And I never go to bed frustrated. I'll put that in context. Like, I'm all about have your conversations. If you're upset with someone or you know, if you're really, you know, not feeling great, like figure it all out before you go to bed. Like I don't sleep on anything that's bothering me, if that makes sense. I know everyone's like, you should. That's not been mean.

No, that's great. That's interesting. That's interesting. Now let's say that you had the power. Microsoft creates this amazing product that allows you to transport yourself back in time and you have an opportunity to meet with young, I don't know, 10 year old Bhavna right now and you can spend maybe 10, 15 minutes with her to give her some advice. What would you say if anything?

So I would say, I'd start off with saying there's always an excuse to dance. I do love dancing. So I'll say that, that that's, you know, that can make anyone happy anytime. So you know, don't ever worry about that. But I would say just to kind of the biggest things for me is the first thing I talked about like that power and that importance of self advocacy. At the end of the day you can have the best sponsors, the best allies, the greatest managers, the greatest support system. But if you don't believe in yourself, nothing's going to be possible. And I love that quote, you can't be what you can't see. And so that's foundational in being who you are. The second thing that I would tell myself is that it's important to, to take time for yourself. I think as, you know, as life happens we become, you know, we're parents with spouses, I'm a daughter, you know, I'm an employee and everything else becomes priority. Not just in the self advocacy piece, just on how you prioritize. Your daily time is focused on everyone else. And it's kind of that concept, you know, from a plane where if you don't wear your oxygen mask first, you really can't take your care of somebody else. You know that well. But remembering that, that's not being selfish but that's actually taking care of everyone else. When you prioritize yourself and giving yourself that moment to reset, to recharge. So I would say that would be, you know, the second thing and the last thing for me is that life is short. So seize every opportunity and go big. Yeah, like that's my whole thing is go home. Like that's you're going to do it, just do it all out. Like stop, stop minimizing all that work that you put into, but really make it work. And so make it count. So that would be what I would say.

Oh, I love it. I love it. All right, well, Bhavna, again, I can't wait to meet you face to face in, in October in, in Dallas. So thank you for taking time to come on. Thank you for your, your grace and your, your patience with me as we, we battled through some technical problems. Not normal, but of course, you know, you never know when Murphy is going to strike. Right. So I'm wondering if maybe we could wrap things up if you have maybe some final words of wisdom for the listeners and then if folks wanted to connect with you over social media or whatever it might be, what would be the best way for that?

Yeah, so maybe in closing, I would say just one of the things, and this is a huge part of what your company does, Ron, and what you all do is this concept of simplification. When we talk about Lean methodology and when we talk about companies being agile and being able to keep up in a world that's transforming at a pace that we can't even keep up with, simplification is your key. And so whether that's communicating to people, building strategy, fostering and driving innovation, we underestimate the power of keeping things simple. So that would be my kind of teaser to going into what we will be discussing at the AME conference around enabling disruption and how do we get smarter and more innovative as companies. And then to reach out to me, you can find me on Instagram as Well as on LinkedIn. I'm the only Bhavna Bartha in the world. Great way to have that combination of a name and so would love to hear from you all and easy to connect with and reach out. And I'm always looking forward to making new connections and sharing more stories. So thank you again and Ron, thank you so much for having me. And I truly look forward to meeting with you in person as well in October.

Fantastic. All right, thank you, Bhavna. We'll see you in October.

Thank you.

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