GA 446 | From “Here” to “There” in Leadership with Alex Judd

If someone depends on you, then you are a leader. And so unless you live in a cave all by yourself, you are a leader. Right? You are a leader and therefore you have leadership responsibilities. The question is not are you a leader? The question is, are you leading?

Today I'm excited to welcome Alex Judd to this show. Now, Alex started a company called Path for Growth a few years ago and the company is all about leadership. And I've known Alex for a little over a year now and been following the work that him and his team are doing. In fact, Alex had me on his podcast a while ago, so we'll link to that in the show notes for this. But man, Alex, he's got next level energy. I mean, I have been told that I've gotten can be a little energetic as well from time to time. So both of us together on the same podcast is kind of like. But man, we had a great conversation and I really, really love this episode. We talk about lots of things related to leadership and there's lots of parallels to what we're doing in Lean and what Alex and his team are talking about. He talks about helping people get from here to there. So current state, future state, so, but just lots of good, colorful conversation about how do you go from here to there. And what I appreciated about it is it's definitely complementary to the things that we're teaching and preaching in Lean. But I would argue that Alex is also bringing a slightly different perspective to it. That's going to be really good for all of us who are passionate about Lean to hear and to listen to. Towards the end, I threw a completely different tangent in there on Alex and asked him about, you know, how to parent my 16 year old son and how to help my son come up with his goals in life and how to navigate that, you know, and so just all kinds of different conversation that Alex and head. So I think you're gonna enjoy this one. It's definitely a longer episode. I think it's pushing 45, 50 minutes, so maybe listen to it in a few different car rides or whatnot. But you're gonna want to listen to this, this whole thing because Alex is pretty awesome. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 4 46. Again gembapodcast.com and look for episode 4, 46. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Alex, welcome to the show. How are you?

Thanks so much, Ron. I'. Golden. I've been looking forward to this. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, likewise. Man, we turn the. Turn the microphone. You interviewed me. Well, it's just been a little while ago, but it's fun to have you on and. And we've had a good time getting to know each other over the last year or so. I've really appreciated following you guys on. On LinkedIn and all the social media platforms out there. You guys are doing some great work.

Oh, man. Well, I. I appreciate you for saying that. That episode that we did on the. The Ten Commandments of Continuous Improvement, like, truly, I'll be talking to customers and they'll be. They'll literally reference. They'll be like, oh, yeah, and when Ron mentioned commandment number four, and I have to like, who's Ron? Again, like, oh, it's Ron Ferreira. It's like, so, man, your content made an impact and people are practicing it.

That's fantastic. Yeah, that was a fun one. We'll link to that episode here in the show notes for this one as well, if folks want to go out and check that one out, so. Well, good. Well, hey, Alex, you know how we like to get going right out of the gate, our guest sharing a quote. So what do you got?

Yeah, the quote that I thought of is by Jordan Peterson. He's a former university professor, clinical psychologist, and just a thought leader that I deeply respect. And I'll never forget, it was in a Q and A that I was listening to him do, and he was talking to a young man about the topic of meaning, and he looked at the young man and he said, meaning is found in optimal struggle voluntarily undertaken. And, man, I think that's going to weave into so much of what we talk about today with regard to leadership and business and all of that. But that quote has truly impacted my life and the way I look at my life moving forward.

Yeah. Say it again.

Yeah. So meaning is found in optimal struggle voluntarily undertaken.

I wonder what he means by optimal. What do you think the word optimal means? Is there a suboptimal struggle?

I mean, I think there is. Yeah. And I mean, if we just want to break it down. So, like, meaning, right. Purpose, significance, feeling like you're part of the adventure on the journey. What I love about this definition is it says like, meaning, it turns out, is not found on the beach drinking margaritas for four weeks. Right. It's like, you can find a lot of things doing that, but meaning isn't going to be the thing that you find doing that. Right. And after a while, you're done on margaritas, and after a while, you're even done at the beach, I get to work with so many leaders that it's. It's like, literally, they say, man, I turned 60, I tried retirement, I went golfing for about three hours. Then I was like, I gotta get back to work. Right?

Yeah.

Because it turns out this narrative that we've been fed that easy equals purpose, isn't. Isn't correct at all. Purpose isn't found in convenience. And so meaning is found in optimal struggle. I think that too little struggle, we become complacent and stale and lazy and stagnant and stultified. And I know what that feels like for myself, right? And I also know what. What that looks like in my organization. Whenever we start resting on what we did instead of focusing on what we could be. That's, I would say, suboptimal. But I also know what it's like. And this is a lot of times what I have to guard against is I know what it's like to. To bite off way more than I can chew, right? And. And this is more struggle than optimal. And it's growth for the sake of growth. But then what's really cool about this, Ron, and this is the thing that is just mind blowing. There is neurological evidence that we perceive voluntary struggle different than compulsory struggle. And so if we opt in for the struggle, if we opt in for the challenge, if we say we want to make this change in our organization, or we want to pursue that goal, or we want to grow in this way personally, and we say, I'm on offense, I'm opting in, our brain literally perceives it differently than rather us having thrust upon us, like, and I feel that right when something is thrust upon me, like, literally the quickest way to make sure I never read a book is tell me I have to read it. But the minute I go buy the book and say, I want to read this, it's the same thing, but I perceive it differently. And so I think that idea of voluntary struggle, because I mean, and I'll close with this on this quote, I mean, what y' all talk about and what y' all teach, let's be very clear. Lean is struggle. Now it's struggle that makes things better and easier and cleaner, more fruitful and more productive. But anytime you're going to take chaos and wrangle it into order, it represents struggle. And so it's what I love about you, it's what I love about your audience is it's a bunch of people that are saying, that's the struggle we are signing up for because we Think that it's worth it. And so. I'm sorry, I get fired up.

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I mean, you're right. I mean, just think about entropy, the whole concept of entropy. That entropy is constantly pulling on the world and trying to bring disorder into the world. Right. And it's never going to quit. Entropy will never stop. And so the only way to defeat entropy is to constantly battle it. Right. And. And push it back. Right. So no, I love it.

I love it. And it kind of reckons with the idea that struggle is a given period. You're going to struggle. The question is, is are you going to engage it proactively or haphazardly? Are you going to happen to it or is it going to happen to you?

That's right. That's right. Good stuff. All right, well, hey, Alex, tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe your background, how you got into your line of work, and then tell us about your company.

Yeah, well, similar to you, I'm from the great Republic of Texas. So I grew up just south of Houston in a place called Clear Lake. And when we see the astronauts on the movies, say, houston, we have a problem, they're really saying, clear Lake, we have a problem is who they're talking to. That's where Johnson Space center is. And my dad worked for NASA growing up and, and I got to spend a lot of time around the space program as a result. And then my mom was an elementary school teacher and, and I, I always like to tell people my goal in life is to have the discipline of a NASA engineer and the enthusiasm of an elementary school teacher. And so that's always my goal. And, and in so many ways, that's the combination of my two parents. Out of that, I end up going to the University of Texas. Hook em horns. What starts here changes the world. And, and studied corporate communication, minored in business. And, and in reality, one of the greatest things that I got out of college was I just love to work. And I, you know, there's so many movements out there discouraging free internships. I just think that's the worst idea ever because I worked for free a lot. And in what I like, in working at the capital and working for a political consulting firm and working for a corporate consulting firm and working for a church, like I was just doing a bunch of odd jobs for free. I. It was trial and error and I was learning what I love. And the thread through all of it was, man, I love and I'm pass and can see the value in effective Communication. And then the other thing that I'm deeply and profoundly passionate about is leadership. And so I saw that thread and it was out of that that I started working for a leadership development group in West Austin and then became the host of the Entree leadership podcast at Ramsey Solutions and got to work with guys like Dave Ramsey and interview people like John Maxwell and Henry Cloud and Seth Godin, Marie Forleo. And then, and it was four and a half years into that role. This was two years ago now that I really said, man, I've spent my entire life working around entrepreneurs, business owners and leaders. And I think if I didn't ever step out to try it on my own, I would always spend my life wondering what if? And so now I get to lead an organization called Path for Growth. We have a team of eight going on nine people. And we say that we exist to help impact driven leaders step into who they were created to be so that others benefit and God is glorified.

So what do you do though? Like with password growth, what do you do? What's your services that you provide?

I appreciate that question. So we provide coaching. One on one coaching. We've got a team of one on one coaches that have all either owned a business or currently own a business. We provide team training where we go in and teach on topics like healthy communication, ownership mentality, or leadership development. And we get everyone on the team on the same page with regard to those topics and the principles that inform them. And then we also do teaching where I speak and teach on our podcasts, within our newsletters, within our workshops that we do within our membership community and then at speaking events.

Got it. Love it. All right, well, you mentioned leadership multiple times so far. And that's the kind of the topic that I, that I like to explore with you today. And I mean, just a real general meta level. The leadership is a big word, right? I mean, there's a gajillion books written on the topic and you ask 10 people, what does leadership mean to them? And you might get 10 different answers. So what is, what is your answer? Like, what is leadership to you? To Alex?

Yeah, I appreciate that question. One of the ways I always like to come at this is first of all, who is a leader and what we believe at Path for Growth that I really want the people listening to this to understand and hear is that if someone depends on you, then you are a leader. And so unless you live in a cave all by yourself, you are a leader, right? You are a leader in. And therefore you have Leadership responsibilities. So the question is not, are you a leader? The question is, are you leading? And so then we have to say, okay, well, what does it mean to lead? And that points to your question, what is leadership? And there's so many helpful definitions. Leadership is service, leadership is influence. Right. But the one that I really have found most practically helpful in my career and in the people that we work with is that leadership is taking people from here to there. And we can break that down some, if you'd like to, but I think that that implies the idea, number one, that we've got other people with us. We're not just going for a walk. This is leadership. Right. But then we've got to reckon with here, and then we've got to move towards a desired destination. And it's in the process of moving together towards that desired destination that we find ourselves leading.

Yeah, well, leading folks out there, like, yes, preach. You know, so, like. So. So let's talk about those two words here and there. So lean parlance, we might say here is sort of current condition or, you know, present state. Is that what you're talking about with. With here?

Yeah, and I. I love that that's part of the culture. And I mean, it's. It's one of the things within lean that I. I just think is so good is it adds language to so many concepts that are universally true. But. But y' all put it and package it in such a way that. Right. And so I think it is current state. But what's so bizarre is how uniquely able as human beings we are to avoid and ignore and completely be unaware of current state. Yeah. Like, I mean, more than any species on the planet, we can be willfully blind to what is currently going on.

Why do you think that is?

Oh, man, we want the shallow answer. We want the knives or whatever, man.

I don't know.

I mean, I think. I think the fundamental sin of humankind is self deception. I think that we have all these peripheral problems, but the problem above all our peripheral problems is that we don't realize that we have a problem. We've convinced ourselves that it's not an issue. And if we go into, you know, literature within the Alcoholics Anonymous community or any of the 12 step program, the first thing you have to do before you can make any progress forward is you have to eliminate and exterminate denial from your life. And let's be very clear, that does not just apply to someone that's suffering from an addiction to alcohol. That applies to our business. The first thing that you have to do. It's not an option if you are going to move forward is you have to exterminate. Denial. But let's be very clear, my ego has a vested interest in me not doing, doing that. It would way rather create this fictional narrative that everything's good, I've got this all figured out. There's no issues. There's no monsters under the bed. There's no people things going wrong. There's nothing wrong with me. There's no inadequacies in our organization that would be way easier in the short term for me to, to deal with. But I mean your listeners know just as well as you and I do the result of that is a nightmare for you and others. And so, so getting clear about current state, to use your language or getting clear about here, I believe it's often one of the most abdicated responsibilities of leadership. Yeah, we don't even talk about where we are. So what business do we have talking about where we want to go?

Yeah, exactly. Well, and I'm always drawn to that quote. I think it was Pogo or somebody.

I don't know who has said it.

But I have found the problem and he is I, you know, the problem is I. Right. And, and you're right. I mean our natural ego, our natural tendency is self preservation perhaps. Right. And we don't want to be in trouble or. And my like one of my character flaws, if you will. And perhaps a strength at the same time is like I hate conflict, you know, and I don't like it when my son and wife are fighting with each other or something like, ah, let's get along, you know, I don't like that, you know, and so, so it's not comfortable. Right. Sometimes looking at the, looking at the here, but we have to. And without that we can't get to there. So what is there for you?

Yeah. Before we move to there, can I share a story on what you just said? Is that cool? I went and did a team training or I was scheduled to do a team training with a small team of about 25 people and we were going to do a talk on healthy communication. Right. And so obviously a lot of the content that we're talking right now is kind of woven into that. And I'll never forget on phone calls prior to the training, I would talk to a member of the leadership team that was kind of organizing it and making sure logistically it was going to go well and all of that. And I was just asking him questions about the team and about the Dynamic. And he went so above and beyond to say, we're all good, that I almost started to be suspicious. Right? It was like he was trying. It's like he wasn't just trying to reassure me. It was like he was trying to reassure himself, like, we're all good. We've got this. Don't worry. This is really just a reinforcement thing. We're. We're good at communication. That's what he kept saying. And so I was like, okay, I've got my radar open a little bit. Like, what's actually going on here? And then the night before the training, I went to dinner with the leaders of the organization, and. And it was just such a good time. It was good dinner. And they're guys that I really, really respect. But almost immediately, one of the leaders goes, alex, it's a mess. And he was like, we wanted to tell you. It's all because we didn't want to scare you away. And I was like, dude, it's okay. Like, we can talk about it. And they just started going into some of the cultural issues of the team, some of the backbiting, the infighting, the gossip. And we had a good conversation. And basically what I said is, I said, here's the deal. We can do the training tomorrow, where I basically give a presentation that is depersonalized from all of this. And it's basically what you would be able to pull up on a YouTube video. Video. But I said, I think that if you are ever going to make meaningful progress on the things that you're talking about right now and the issues that are in the business, I said, you're gonna have to talk about it. And so I think what would be really good is for us to create an environment and a safe space where we can just get these things out on the table and we can talk about it. And I'll never forget they looked at me and they were like, you can't do that. I was like, what do you mean? I was like, what do you mean? I can't do that. And I'll never forget what he said, Ron. He looked at me. He said, said, alex, they're like piranhas, and when they smell blood in the water, they swarm and they rip any sign of weakness to shreds. I was like, oh, my gosh. But all that to say I convinced them for us to talk about it. And here's what I found is toxicity breathes toxicity, and it loves the dark, right? And so if we're not willing to shine light on it, it's going to become swamp infested piranha water. But what was so cool is whenever we started to shine light on it and say, this isn't that scary, this isn't that bad, we've just got some disagreements because anytime you move forward, what does it cause it causes friction.

Yeah.

And what was wild is we were able to start building some resolution, but that would have never happened if we weren't willing to talk about what here is.

Yeah, well, and also that it takes being vulnerable right. In those moments and being like, well, okay, let's just lay it all out there and, and you know, maybe, you know, you tick me off, Alex. You know, half the time when you say, you know, like that's being vulnerable, that's being putting it out there. And that's not easy.

I think, I think that's absolutely well said.

Yeah. All right, so what about there though? So like lean perspective, we would call it the future state or the challenge or whatever it might be. Like what, what does there mean to you in the context of leadership?

Yeah, I think it's compelling vision. And I think as human beings, we are aim seeking creatures. And I think every single person listening to this, every single person that works onto their team, every single member of their family, either consciously or subconsciously, is walking around asking the question, where are we going? And within that question, where are we going? They're asking the question, where am I going? And the best leaders I know know don't leave the answers to those questions up to chance. And they get really serious about saying, like, we're not just going to drift into a desired state. We're going to move there with a sense of purpose and with a sense of intent. Right. We all say, oh, I want to be a more intentional person, I want to be a more intentional leader. I think sometimes we use that word so much that we, we think it means good. Intentional means good. But it also means so much more than good. It means to operate with a decided sense of intent. And so do you have a sense of aim? Broadly, but also specifically. I'll never forget I worked on a team. This was in a past job that I had. I was part of a team and it was filled with so many outrageously talented, high character, high capacity, passionate individuals. And it had a leader that he was honestly gifted in a lot of areas. But one of the things that he never did was he never really unified the team around where we, we were going. And what I found is that if you have passionate people and you don't point their Eyes forward. Their eyes will point inward many times because they start to feel insecure. They don't know what their role is. They don't know what their responsibilities are. They don't know what winning looks like. They have no clue how they're being measured. And so therefore paranoia and paralysis is the result. And I saw this group of high character, high capacity, outrageously talented individuals like literally devolve. And it became like backbiting and infighting and cross cutting and meetings would be outrageously just division. Right. And, and think about what that word is. Die vision. Right. There's multiple visions. We're moving in different directions. And, and this is what clarified this concept for me is that leader left the organization. A new leader. A new leader came in. The first thing that leader did is sat down with every person over the course of 90 days, got all of the information he could about what was going on and then created a, gosh, it was probably a 50 slide presentation on where we were going to go as a team over the course of the next two years. And it was wild. It was like the gossip went away immediately, the backbiting went away immediately. And all of these talented, competent, passionate people started living up to their potential and their standard. And it was the value of vision. People are asking, where are we going? And I believe it's one of the highest return responsibilities of a leader to help answer that question in service of the people they lead.

What if you're a leader? High character leader, you mean well and you, you're being, you're successful company, successful department successful, whatever it is, and you don't have a good idea of where you should go. Maybe you're in a profitable company, maybe you're doing well. Like what's the vision for them?

Like, that's hard sometimes I think it's really hard. Yeah, I mean it's, it's, I think it's related to the law of the lid that John Maxwell teaches on is like sometimes we're like, okay, well my vision for my company is where we are now, now. And, and I know that I need it, but it's like I'm just so freaking grateful and thrilled that we're here that it's like I, like, I kind of want to enjoy here and, and I'm not really that focused on there. And, and I understand that. Right. And, and so one of the things that we teach, we, we always say that we're not focused on growth for the sake of growth. We, we teach that there's value and power in practicing Healthy growth, because health and growth aren't the same thing. And one of the things that I've learned from observing and studying leaders that actually practice what I would call healthy growth is that they don't confuse contentment with complacency. And so I think sometimes we, we want to be content and we think that if I'm going to be content, then I can't also set goals for the future. It's like no. Contentment is the ability to be gracious and present and really just delighting in today. And the strongest leaders I know have the ability to be grateful for today while also outrageously excited about our tomorrow. And the reason why they are excited about tomorrow is no longer themselves. Yeah, they abandoned the selfish motive a long time ago. They're saying, man, I've been given this business, I've been given this team to steward. And what does stewardship look like? It looks like me maximizing what it could be in service of others. And so the, the thing that I would challenge people on, if they're saying, like, man, I, I'm, I'm at there, I made it, I'm so thrilled for you. What would it look like now to say, I'm going to point all my energy at crafting a vision for the future that may look different than today so that this business can be a maximal blessing towards others? Well, let me, can I, can I ask you a question on that, Ron?

Yeah.

Like, you've been at this way longer than I have. Do you have additional thoughts there or there? And I mean, in some ways it's like I could see Gimba Academy being at that point. Right. Like y', all, y' all are crushing it. You built this thing that's like, I mean, impacting across industries around the nation. There's leaders from all over coming to y'. All. It's like it would be very easy, easy just to park and say, like, we're gonna ride this thing out. Yeah, I, I know, I know you well enough to know you aren't. Y' all are anywhere close to doing that. So, so what is it for you?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. I mean, and it's funny because we, we have these conversations within our, our, our company all the time and talking about where. And we do, we've, we've got some very practical, you know, business related sort of goals as, as a, as an organization. But I would argue, in a way, our vision from when we started this thing in March of 2009, literally in a spare bedroom of my House. That's how we started. I mean, some people don't know that. I don't know if I've ever even publicly said that, but I guess I just did. It was always about like, we got a customer. I was like, oh my gosh. We just, I remember the first subscription we ever sold. I was like, oh my gosh. Some, I was like a 97 monthly thing we had back then. We don't have that anymore. But, but I just thought, O my gosh, someone just gave us like nearly a hundred dollars, you know, to watch like some videos that I just made. And you know, and it blew my mind. Right? It blew my mind. And, and so I felt this responsibility to help that customer be successful, you know, and so that's, that's where this, this thing started. And, and now I would argue with, we got a few more than one customers now and, and, and, but it hasn't changed so far. But that long term vision for us is just to relentlessly pursue perfection, you know, and, and we're never going to get there because perfection can't be really be had. Right. And so it's, it's just a, it's a mindset of just constantly trying to help people be better. Right. And, and so, yeah, I mean, we, and if, you know, internally we've got some very practical goals where we want to be and, and all the rest of it financially and you know, that sort of thing. Meta level, I feel like those, those financial goals and all that, that's, that's, that's not enough. Right? Like, you've, you've really got to have a deeper meaning, a deeper purpose that everyone kind of gets behind, you know, so when the, when the going gets tough, that struggle that we open the conversation with, when the struggle is real and it is often, you know, that you can fall back onto, like this is why we exist and what we're going to continue to do.

Do.

Right?

And I think, I think lean companies, companies that apply themselves to what y' all teach and I mean, what guys like Paul Akers teach and just everyone on your podcast, all of that, I, I have just in some ways become fascinated by them. Because this is a little bit of a tangent, but are you familiar with Andrew Huberman? Do you know, do you know him? So he's a professor of neurobiology and on, I think it's on onthology at Stanford. You know, he's smart. Whenever he can't even pronounce what he's a professor of, it's something related to the brain. But, man, his podcast, Huberman Lab, it's brain science made practical in so many ways. 50% of it goes well over my head. But he had something on there not long ago that I actually thought of it as it relates to Lean, because one of the things that he said has been really discovered recently is we know that in so many ways, dopamine is the motivational hormone, right? It's the thing that drives us to do what we do so many times, and we're looking for that dopamine hit, right? Dopamine is what is released whenever someone takes a hit of cocaine. Right? But it's also what happens whenever you see a red thing pop up on Facebook that you want to click on to see that notification. It's also what happens whenever the CEO comes by and pats you on the back and says, hey, I saw that. You did that. Great job. Right? It's all dopamine. And. And one of the things that's been discovered is that you can actually train yourself to unleash the dopamine in the process of doing the struggle, not just in the destination, and that it's literally possible that if you start to value and find pleasure and joy in the process, hormonally, your body will adjust to say, oh, I actually enjoy the struggle. And that's why, like, I'm a runner. And that made so much sense to me. To me, because I was like, something happens. I didn't always love running, and then one day I just started loving it.

And.

And people look at you like you have four eyes whenever you say, I love running. Right? And runners know this if they're listening this or. Or people that work out or people that do CrossFit or stuff like that, but it's because they. They've made that switch to, like, oh, I. I don't. I'm not doing this for a T shirt. I'm not doing this for a metal. This isn't about a finish line. This is. I love to run. And. And I think. Think I've never seen it as institutionalized as in lean companies, where they say, like, the goal matters so that we have something to aim at that unifies us. But make no mistake, we love today. Like, we love the process. We love continuous improvement. And, I mean, it's so absurd that you can literally say what we're in this for is to pursue perfection and we'll never get there. Like, there's some people that would be.

Like, okay with that. Yeah.

Like, you celebrate that. There's some people that Be like, what on earth like you mean you celebrate the fact that you're never going to reach the thing that you actually want. And, and that's lean culture is we say not only do we do we accept it, we delight in it and we value in it because there's always value in the process. I mean it's so cool. I get chills thinking about it.

Yeah, no, for sure. I want to. And this podcast is going to be a little bit longer. So people just listen to this and serious. But I got too many questions. I can't let you go. I want to circle back to here and there in a more personal perspective, more on the there and I want to get some free consulting from you. Parenting advice even.

That is a whole. I don't have kids, Ron. That's a horrible.

You're going to, you're going to help, you're going to help those of us in the.

So I've often, I've often been told that the people that give the parenting advice that's best is the people that don't have kids because they have no clue what they're talking about.

There's no bias. Seriously, there's no bias. Right.

You're also clueless. Also have no clue what they're talking about.

So, so when you think about like forming a human being, whether it's a teenager or even a, an executive in a company that's a human being and you're, and you're attempting to form them and help them to achieve a better, you know, there, you know, you assess where they are here and where we're going to go there and you help them get there. What do you do in the of. Well, this is especially with, with younger people, you know, like, like my son, he's 16 and, and he hates his, he hates algebra and you know, and history and all the rest of it. Right. And he loves country music and in football like many young boys do. Right. And so he's like, he's wants to be like, genuinely wants to be like a country music star. Like. And he's pretty good, you know, I mean he could play and he's self taught watching YouTube videos and all the rest of it. But as his parent, I'm thinking to myself probabilities in my mind that you're going to be the next Morgan Wallen. You know, I don't want to crush his spirit and say, no, you're not going to be the next Morgan Wallen. But yeah, you should study that algebra 2 and you know, probably go to college or some type of get some, you know, like a fallback plan. But then I feel like, gosh, maybe I'm being a horrible parent by not just, like, pouring into his passion for, you know, what, what he wants to do. So, like, maybe that even happens with an executive, right? They might have some really far out, you know, dreams that you're thinking, oh, man, that's going to be tough, right? That's, that's, that's shooting for the stars kind of thing. Like, where do you, where does reality and mix with, with going from here to there? Or is there no such thing as reality? You shouldn't even, you know what I mean? Like, you shouldn't even think about that. That you should just go.

Of all the questions I would have expected to get on this podcast, is there no such thing as reality? Was not one that I was expecting to have to, to figure out an answer to. I, I don't know on that, but I, I, there's so many things that, that I would love to ask your son. And, and this is a lot of time, what we do with leaders is a lot of times they're, the extent of their vision is for their business, and that's not bad, right? That just, that's just the thing that they're best at. This is me, right? I, I'm, I'm dating someone right now. And we were literally having a conversation last night, and I was like, it's crazy. Like, so many of the things that we're talking about with regard to our relationship that I'm trying to have vision for and things like that, I'm like, it's literally the stuff that I teach every Tuesday on our podcast for the business. I said, it's just so much harder in this arena. It's just really, really difficult. Difficult. And, and so I relate to the business leaders that we work with a lot in that, like, vision in one specific area is really, comes naturally to them. And what I often find myself doing for myself, and our team often does for those leaders is we say, you think you're a visionary leader. You got to think bigger, dude. Like, your vision is five years from now for your business, and that's awesome. And you are a visionary for that, that. But what's your vision for your family? What's your vision for the type of community member you are? What's the vision for your contribution at church? What's the vision that you have for your body that you've been given to steward and, and that you could do? I mean, some wild things right And I say, like, if you're just thinking about your vision or if you're just thinking about your business, you're thinking too small. Because I've seen so many leaders that, I mean, Dave Ramsey is one of them, Michael Hyatt's one of them, John Maxwell is one of them, that it's like they have the audacity to think big. And because they had the audacity to think big, they've got a thriving business that impacts millions of people. They've got a wife that loves them, they've got grandkids that enjoy spending time with them. And like, like Dave was still running half marathons whenever I was working at the company. Right. And and so was it. So it's like they're thinking bigger, they're thinking broader. And so, I mean, if I had a conversation with your son, what I would want to sit down and do is I would say, okay, I'm going to challenge you to do something. Let's, let's think five years from now. Anything past five years is really hard. But, but let's try and put ourselves. How old are you going to be five years from now? 21. Okay. Okay, you're going to be 21. And let's think about maybe some things that you would want to be true about the 21 year old version of you. So you're 21. What do you want to be able to say is true? And my guess is that he doesn't just want to say, I'm great at country music. I bet you that's part of it. I really do. But I bet you there's other things that if prompted by the question, he would want to be true.

True.

And he would want to be true maybe for the types of friendships he has. He would want to be true in terms of the way he feels about his life. He would want to be true in terms of the way that he's regarded by others. He would want to be true in terms of the way his family thinks about him. And I would just want to ask, like, who's the person you want to be whenever you're 21? And then let's talk about what are some of the things that if you were to do it here today at 16, would contribute to that person.

Yeah.

And I don't know that that would make a shift overnight, but I think so often the leaders that have made the greatest impact on me, they believed in me more than I believed in myself.

Yeah.

And sometimes it's like, it's why I think it's so wise for parents to put their kids in youth groups. And it's why, like, I mean, I. I really challenge our team, like, invest in the next generation, because some of those students need to borrow some of your belief. You. You believe more for them and their future than they do right now, because you've seen more. And so it would be such a shame if you kept that a secret.

Yeah. Good stuff. I didn't mean to hijack it on, you know, parenting advice, but I feel like it's. It's applicable, really, for all of us. Right. Because we're all children in some ways, you know, like learning as we go and. And in figuring things out in this thing called life.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that posture, too. Like, I just think of Matthew 5 whenever you say we're all children. In some ways, it's like, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. It's the person that realizes how little they actually know.

Right.

Man. It's like, then you get to live.

Yeah, exactly. So you're.

I want. I.

A few other questions that I want to kind of get to. And if we don't get them all today, we'll have you back on and do part two or something. But I mean, the name of your. Your. Your company has the word growth in it, and we've talked about it a little bit already, but I'm curious to just get some more thoughts on. On healthy growth versus, you know, unhealthy growth maybe is a way of saying it, but as it fits into that, we've talked about the process, and we're following the process, and we're loving the process. We're loving the struggle. We're engaging in the struggle towards that growth. But what. What does good growth look like?

Yeah. My guess is that everyone who's listening to this podcast has heard someone say, or has maybe even said that phrase, if you're not growing, you're dying. Right. And we all love to sound really tough whenever we say that phrase. And, man, I've said that phrase a bunch of times. Right. If you're not growing, you're dying. If you're not growing, you're dying. And here's what I've learned. Just because you're growing doesn't mean you're living. Right? And I. I have met so many people and also interacted with so many businesses that are growing but are just as dead as those that aren't. And so what? We are just, I mean, zealously passionate about at Path for growth. Is just opening people's eyes to the idea that healthy growth is possible. It's just not guaranteed. Guaranteed. And it never happens accidentally. It always happens because someone exercised outrageous intentionality. And so there's a lot of things that healthy growth looks like. But, but one that I think we've already highlighted some today is that it's a rebellion against the destination mindset. Like, it's a rebellion, a revolution against this idea that one day I'm gonna be there and fulfillment is around the corner, but until I get there, well, then I'm not. Okay? And neither is this company that is rat poison. Right? And healthy growth is rooted in the idea that we talked about before is like today is a gift. I mean, if you actually look into the, the science, the probability of you even existing is. It's like one out of ten to something like the, the two millionth power. It's unreal. It's literally what I read on this is it's the equivalent in, of everyone in the city of San Diego. That's 2 million people rolling a trillion sided dice and all of them landing on the same number simultaneously. That's the likelihood that you exist and you're waiting till tomorrow to feel blessed. What, like, no, this is crazy, right? And so we've got to figure out a way to love today in our business and in our life. And, and I mean, you've got people around you today that are incredible. You've got business opportunity around you today that's incredible. You've got customers today that are trusting you with their time, their money and their energy and, and you're gonna wait to, to start being excited about serving people till three years from now. I just, I reject that idea. And so healthy growth is a lot of things, but I think the one that honestly is in many ways reinforced by Lean is just the idea that, like the destination idea that you have to be singularly obsessed with a day in the future and that keeps you from enjoying today. It's a farce.

Yeah. Well, even think about, you know, you're looking towards milestones every year of certain holidays or whatever, and how often does that happen? It's like the holiday comes and it's like, okay, now I'm depressed because I don't have something to look forward to. Right?

So that, and I think there's nothing wrong with looking forward. It's just, it's, you know, there's a, there's an idea in stoicism that says if you want happiness, kill desire. And I don't, I don't think that's healthy either. Right. I like this idea that it's like, don't want anything for the future because it's like, that feels a lot, lot like nihilism to me where we're just like become this, like pond, this puddle. Right. I want you to be a rushing river. I want you to, I mean, just be outrageously powerful in service of others today, but also be going somewhere. And I think, I think if we don't think that combination is possible, we're thinking too small. Right. Because also the path towards loving tomorrow is figuring out a way to love today.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and to get to tomorrow, you're going to be more effective if you love today. Right. So they, they feed on. Right. And yeah, if you're miserable and, and demotivated and unhappy or whatever, you're not going to be very good at moving forward. You're not going to. No one's going to want to put their boat on your water running down the.

That's right. Or the people that you will attract will be miserable, demoralized and unhappy. And then you'll look up, you'll be like, I'm a miserable, demoralized, unhappy leader surrounded by a miserable, demoralized, unhappy team.

Really?

That's the future you want? No way.

So, Alex, you're obviously, I don't know if we'll have the video up on us, but you're, you're very similar to me, maybe, I don't know, like passionate. It's just about life and people and your work and. And it just, it pours out of you. Right. And it does me as well when I get into the right moment. Not everybody's like us. Right. Like, I can be.

I, I honestly feel like, Ron, if you and I sat down and had coffee in the same room, the entire room would hear our conversation.

Yeah, for sure. So I, I'm curious. I've been studying a lot lately. Just about. I'm really interested in, in temperaments and, you know, my wife's always talked about our kids, love languages and, you know, and that sort of thing and trying to figure out how to best communicate with one another. What do you, what's your take? And this is a completely different tangent, so I apologize. But what is your take on dealing with, from a leadership perspective with folks that don't share your energy, they don't share your zeal for life. Not that they're not happy. They might be. Just be happy in a different way. Right. Maybe they're more introverted or, you know, Whatever it might be. So how do you. What's your advice for that scenario when you're coming up against someone who's not Alex, not Ron. Different. Different energy level.

Yeah, I. Man, I love that question. We have a team of eight people right now, and not a single one of them shares the same temperament as I do. And my response to that is, thank God. Truly. Like, I'm not saying that facetiously. I'm saying thank God, like, literally, because it's like, if everyone was you and me, this world would be so obnoxious, it wouldn't even be funny, right? It's like, okay, like. Like, I mean, I think spiritual gifts are real. And I also think that the highest calling of a leader is to unleash the best in others. And so what I want everyone to hear and recognize is that the path to you growing into who you were created to be does not look like you becoming someone else. It become. It looks like you becoming more of who you actually are. Are. And so, in a different vein, I've been obsessed with the topic of effective communication for, I mean, honestly, probably 20 years, which is crazy because I'm. I'm 30, right? So literally, when. When I was in second grade, I told my mom, when I grow up, I don't think I want to be a motivational speaker, but I'd love to be a motivational teacher someday, right? And so, like, I've had this idea of effective communication on my mind for a very long time. And I've watched effective communicators, everyone from Zig Ziglar to John Max Maxwell to Dave Ramsey to Stephen Furtick to Tim Keller to Brene Brown, right, to Henry Cloud. And I've gotten to spend time with many of these people, which I'm so grateful for. And. And what's so wild is that the list of things that those people actually have in common is so small, it's not even funny. But one thing that they all have common in terms of outcomes is man. They can captivate and hold a room, and people will follow them, and people will listen to them, and people will be inspired by them. And as a result, people will be served by them. And so I started to ask the question, like, okay, what's going on here? And then I realized, out of all those people that I listed, they all have a honed and practiced ability to be incredibly authentic, to be themselves. And they're not putting on masks. They're not trying to be anyone else. And that's what I would tell the leaders listening to this. You would do a disservice to yourself and others if the. If you tried to be Ron or if you tried to be me, we need you to be you and recognize that you were put in the situation that you're in with the team that you've been given, the business that you've been given, the sphere of influence that you've been given, the resources that you've been given. And. And he didn't give us those things. He gave you those things. And he's looking at you saying, what are you going to do with it? Because. Because I equip the person that I put in that spot.

Yeah.

And so I would just say own who you are. Step into that and recognize that you were created for this.

I love it. Golly, Good stuff, man. Alex, this has been fun. I really appreciate your.

Your.

Your energy and your passion, and you got me all fired up over here, man.

I so. I seriously, so, so appreciate you and your team, like, y' all do. I mean, like, truly even the process for this podcast, I was like, man, they do things so well. And so thank y' all for being such professionals.

Oh, well, you're welcome. Likewise. Hey, let's wrap things up. Alex, if folks want to connect with you or Path for Growth, what's the. The best way?

Yeah, the Path for Growth podcast is a great thing to listen to. And. And we can obviously provide the link for the episode that we did with ron. And then pathforgrowth.com is where we have all the information about what we provide in terms of coaching and team training and teaching and things like that.

And you.

You.

You. You're also personally active. Quite active, I would say, on LinkedIn. Is that right?

Yeah, I. I freaking love LinkedIn, man. I mean, you are as well. It's. It's such a fun platform. So, yeah, if you're on LinkedIn, let's connect there, too.

Yeah, perfect. And we'll put the. The links in the show notes for this. For this episode. So, Alex, again, thanks for coming on, man. Keep up the great work. And I know this won't be the last time we chat, so, yeah, until next time, keep going.

Yes, sir. Thanks so much, Ron.

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