GA 451 | Good and “Evil” in Kata with Scott Laundry and Marc Bicknell

Okay, they get the pattern, right? They've learned the pattern. They understand the pattern. Now that would be a good time to say, okay, how can I effectively change the kata so that they can proceed to the next level?

Today I'm excited to welcome Scott Landry and Mark Bicknell to the show. Now, I actually did this interview. I'm back here in the studio right now, but this interview is actually from the AME conferen back in Dallas. And yeah, this was a fun one. Scott and Mark, Scott in particular, he's, he's a, he's a handful and he, they came up to me during the, during the conference and just chatting with us at our gambling academy booth and, and started talking about his ideas on how kata within Toyota Kata are evil.

And I'm like, what evil?

What are you talking about? And so it's kind of a play on words and you'll see what, what Scott's talking about. But had a fun with this interview because there's lots of, lots of passion and lots of excitement and plus it's just cool here at the crowd there at the AME in the background. So, yeah, good stuff. So show notes for this episode can be found over@gimbapodcast.com look for episode 451. Also, if you scroll down a little bit here on your podcast app, you're going to see a link that you can go and sign up for Gimba Academy's newsletter. You can subscribe to our podcast. All kinds of good stuff. So our newsletter in particular is really good. It's not one of your typical spammy newsletters where we're asking you to buy stuff. When we send out new blog articles or podcasts or when we do have new videos that are available to watch, we put all that in the, in the newsletter. So we really do try to add value. So, yeah, so you can scroll down there. There'll be a link to the. Sign up for that. Okay, again, show notes for everything we talk about today can be found over@gemba podcast.com episode 451. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. SC Mark, how are you guys?

Good. How are you?

Great. Fantastic.

All right, well, thanks for coming to be on the podcast here. We're here at ame. How's the show going for you guys?

I'm, I'm really enjoying it. There's lots of good conversations, lots of good, good presentations out there. So learning a lot.

Yeah, definitely.

Cool. Cool. All right, well, you guys know the drill. We like to kind of get things going out of the gate with our guest sharing a quote. So you guys have one.

So I'll start. Of course, it's Deming. Without data, you're just another person with an opinion. And a quick story to that is, I'm in the car with my brother, we're going to a wedding, and he's spouting off about something. I said, well, do you have data to support your opinion? He just kind of stopped the car and looked at me. I thought he was gonna punch me, but he didn't, so it's fine. Yeah, yeah.

So mine is. Not too many people quote Bruce Lee in continuous improvement, but absorb what's useful, discard what's not, add to that which is uniquely your own.

Yeah, cool. All right, well, hey, tell us about your backgrounds, guys, kind of how you got started in all this continuous improvement stuff and. And what you're up to these days.

So this is Scott. I started doing continuous improvement when I was in an organization, Albany International. I did a five year stint as a full time lean six Sigma black belt, kind of advancing on the other work that I've been doing in the company on continuous improvement, and then took a full time role, did that globally with raw material supply chain for another three years. And then I moved over to tdo, which is the MEP center in Syracuse, New York. And so as a senior project manager there, we help companies help manufacturers advance towards operational excellence. And so we're firmly in the continuous improvement workspace every day.

Yeah, yeah. For me, I was at a small company and really, really old technology, so we really need to move the needle. And I just took a 12 month course at a local community college and that's when they really got hooked up. So I just brought those tools and techniques to that company and then continued forward. And now I'm a master black belt and study under Scott, so.

Nice. Nice.

All right.

Well, yeah, we were. What was it yesterday, I think, or we were chatting and having a fun conversation. I said, man, you guys got to come onto the podcast, man. We got some potential heresy maybe.

I don't know, man. The rebel forces.

The rebel forces, yeah. So. So, yeah, like right out of the gate. The question that sort of got me all fired up yesterday and kind of laughing, but also like, whoa, that's pretty intense. Is something to the effect of that. Scott, you think maybe. Mark, you do too.

I don't know.

You think kata are evil?

Yeah, kata are evil. Maybe a softer way to say that is kata can be evil.

Oh, no, Back off now, man. Come on.

Everything, everything out there has a dark side and a light side. Right. And when I referred to the evil side of Kaaba, it's the same thing as the powerful side of Kata. Right. Kata is incredibly hemet forming. So a lot of times we stick with starter Kata because.

Explain starter kata, folks.

Maybe they don't know what Starter kata. So starter kata are the practice routines you practice to develop skill and thinking. Right. And so a lot of times we're given starter kata. Mike Rother gave us starter Kata for Toyota Kata. There's the improvement kata, the coaching kata, Starter kata. And then in the practice guide he gave us starter Kata for the improvement kata. Like here's how you develop your current condition or here's how you develop a target condition. The routines you can practice in the beginning to learn. But a lot of people get stuck just practicing the starter kata.

Yeah.

And Mike was very adamant that they're just starter Ka. He called them starter Kata because he didn't want you to get stuck on them. Right. But a lot of people do get stuck because kata or habit forming, that's why we practice it. We practice it to develop habits of scientific thinking. And in terms of katana, as a TWI practitioner, all the four step methods in TWI are kata. You practice to learn a skill. How do you learn how to instruct Practice ji. How do you learn how to solve people problems? Use the four step JR method. Right. So there are patterns you practice, but a lot of people just get stuck and they never evolve beyond that. So that's the evil side of kata is that is that it can actually inhibit your development.

Yeah.

Even if it promotes it in the beginning because using it to learn a new skill or way of thinking, it can actually get you stuck. And it's not continuous improvement.

Yeah. So yeah. And I'm glad you said, I mean, I've heard Mike and many of the other sort of folks in that kata movement or whatever you want to call it, kind of weird kind of movement, but you know, the kata geeks as they call themselves. Yeah. I think they would all agree with you. So I don't think they would call it heresy or anything like that, you know.

Yeah, it is. But then if you, if you actually challenge them to say, like there are reasons why you might want to stay with the starter kata if you have an organization and you want effectively standard work so other people can come in and coach and it won't change the, the experience for the learners. There may be other reasons, you know, if you're an Outside consultant and you want to have standard work for your staff to do that. But a lot of times people won't ever even examine those starter cotta and say, should we change it?

Yeah.

And can we move, make our new standard different from today?

Yeah. And I mean, obviously, as you guys know, I mean, standards are meant to be improved. Right. And so, but I feel perhaps the trap that you would have to be careful with in your approach would be the wild, wild west out here.

Right.

Shooting from the head all the time.

Now we've got 42 questions. You know, we used to only have four or five. You know, exactly. You know, so, so, you know, as long as we're standardizing and improving and, and finding the one best way today to do whatever it is we're trying to do, I feel like we're probably, that's, that's continuous improvement, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, so what do you think then as far as. Well, I'm more on kata improvement kata, coaching kata. Like what's your, what's your approach? If you're working with a learner, so called right now, and you're playing the coach like what, how do you, how do you go about it? Do you, I mean, obviously I don't assume you're pulling out the card and reading questions from the card. What are your next steps? What do you think is going to happen?

Right, yeah. Well, there may be coaching sessions where it's completely by the card, but I like to look at coaching as a PDCA cycle. So I'm always reviewing what does my learner need and what is my experiment going into this coaching cycle to try and move the learner to what they need. So I may change what my plan is going into a coaching session and I may have some questions in mind. You know, they may be reflecting questions, riffs off the basic questions, or it may be, you know what, we're not even going to concentrate on that part. We're going to do this or it may be in when you're setting somebody up, you know, getting, getting the first couple steps of the improvement kata, where you're getting your direction, you're understanding current condition and setting your target condition, you know, maybe those ones I approach differently. Whereas when we get into the pattern of the PDCA cycle records, maybe that's a little bit more standard. So I always look at it like going into a coaching session, what's my plan? And I may modify my plan on the fly. Well, I may modify it intentionally.

Yeah.

And so that's one of the keys is deliberately practice changing your kata to match what the learner needs at that point in time. So be deliberate about it. Have a process where you, you actually reflect on it and change it intentionally. And then the other one is sometimes it's, you got to react on the fly.

Yeah.

Right. And so when somebody doesn't answer a question in a certain way, you know, it's very common for people to ask, you know, deepening questions or something like that. Well, you know, you can't always have that script in your head. Sometimes you have to do it on the fly.

Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, we're in small to medium sized manufacturers and they don't have a bunch of data to reflect on to be able to create a target condition. So it's, it's helping them to realize what is your target condition without data.

Right.

You may know the obstacles through some lean foundation work, but they don't really know what that next step is. So you kind of have to get them there to understand what information they need. Yeah. To even create that condition.

Yeah.

Or that next target. Right.

So I'm applying like job methods, thinking a lot. So I'm questioning every detail of the, of the kata that I'm practicing. So why am I doing that? What's the purpose of doing that? When's the best time? You know, should I do it now? Should I not do it now? Because the, the skills that you're trying to develop in Toyota Katana, there's the striving part of it about how to take a big challenge, break it down into small achievable kind of visions or goals with target conditions and then how do I experiment forward? There's also lots of all the starter kata for each step of the improvement kata. They're individual little skills and details. So at any given point you can ask when's the best time? Do I have to teach that right from the beginning or can I introduce that later on in the kata learners process of learning that. So it's a scientific thinking part of it, like data driven scientific that can actually be separated out from the striving or any given element of scientific thinking. Or you know, can, can be broken out and taught at a different time. But a lot of people just stick, stick to the script.

Yeah, yeah. What about yesterday? You were also mentioning your approaches to target conditions and helping the learner with the target condition. I think, you know, by the book, you know, the learner.

Right.

Comes up with their target condition and you might, you might have a slightly different take on that from time to time.

Yeah. So not to lead you too much here. Yeah. But so, you know, the, the standard is the learner develops the target condition. So again, if you're applying jm, thinking, who should develop the target condition? The learner should develop the target condition challenge. That automatically say, no, somebody else is going to develop the target condition. Why doesn't the coach give the learner the first target condition so they can focus on experimenting and practicing and then they can develop their next target condition down the road? Because that's one of the most difficult things. So we often start out with the most difficult things for learners Right. When they're beginning and they can get frustrated and shut down. Let's set them up for success and, you know, have them knock it out of the park. Rother often says that first target conditions, a throwaway target condition anyway, because, well, okay, let's just give it to him. Try that. That's a good experiment.

Right.

And so one of the, one of the things that I, if you look at the big picture of how I got introduced to kata, before the practice guide came out, there were not starter kata for each of the steps. So I practiced for, you know, a lot of coaching sessions without starter kata. So I developed kind of my own ways of doing things. And then starter katan, like everybody, you've got to start out this way. Well, there's some research behind it. And, you know, Mike said, hey, we tested this out and this seems a most repeatable way to do it. Yeah, but I had experience that said there are different ways to do it.

Right.

Like, you know, a date. You don't have to set a date out for the target condition as the first thing in setting a target condition. You can talk about what pattern do you see, you know, what's happening today that shouldn't be happening in the future? What's not happening today that should be happening in the future. Okay, if we were to do that, about how long, how long would it. You think it take to get there? And then if it's too long out there, say a month or six weeks or whatever, what small portion of that could we do in two weeks? Right, right. So you don't have to, you don't have to follow the form. You can.

And I think also the form also could be seen as. For me, when I'm coaching folks, it's, it's not necessarily to your point, like you will hit that target condition on this date. It's. But, but when are we going to check back in with one another? Yeah. Right. For some feedback, you know, and get that. Because without that, I feel like if you. If you don't set any date.

Right.

You never see your learner again.

Right? Yeah, Right.

And then you're no longer a coach, so.

Yeah, exactly. So there are certain elements of it, like, why do we have it. Why do we have a date there? Well, literally understand the purpose of having the date there. And then say, what if I didn't do that? You know, like, what's the worst thing that could happen if I didn't do that? Okay. Do I want to change that? I mean, so I'm always thinking. It's not like there's one answer. It's like it's. It's more like under jr, right, You. You put together possible actions. You weigh and decide.

Right.

And then you pick which action you want to take or which combination of actions. Kata can be more like that.

Right.

We're saying, what are possible changes to my kata? What would happen if I did that? Weigh and decide. Should I do it or should I do something else?

Mark, do you, and Scott, I guess, work together a little bit? Like, who is there? You do ever have a second coach for this wild guy over here who's flying all over the place? Or what's the.

I've never seen one. Or he's never let me in that. In that room. So he's my coach, and he's. He's a good coach.

Have a coach, be a coach.

Exactly. Exactly.

So, you know, I haven't cried yet with this feedback, so. But I'm close. So. So. But it's been good.

Yeah.

But I love the scientific thinking aspect. And, you know, a lot of times when I'm coaching someone, I said, you know, think about the next time you get a phone call from the cable company and they say, hey, I can give you cable for 25 bucks. What questions would you ask? What information would you need to see if that was a good deal? Right. Can I still stream Netflix on 4tv? So it really starts to help them, not only in the factory, but in their real life, too. That's what I love about kata. Yeah. So it's just some. Some of the things that I try to tie together for people to really help them grasp.

Right.

Yeah. To me, the power of the framework and why I am also very passionate about it.

It's just.

It is. I wish that I would have had this thought process as a young engineer running around factories, you know, with all my tools and my. I mean, I could fix some stuff back in the Day. Right. I mean, I was pretty. I mean, I just. I was a bull. Right. And just. I will knock it down eventually, you know, but to me, it's just this framework of. Of allowing you to sort of experiment and learn. You know, it's about learning.

Yeah.

You know, it's not about having the right answer.

Right.

It's not around. I mean, that's what my biggest pain in the business world is, sitting in a meeting with people who are debating who has the right answer.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

How about we debate which experiment to run next?

Right? Exactly.

You know what I'm saying?

And it may fail. And that's okay. And that's.

And it's just like we know we had a prediction and didn't work as we thought it would, but we learned. So in a way, you can't ever fail because you're always learning.

Right, Right.

And so I don't know. To me, that's the power of the framework is that it just allows. I like using. The people on the podcast have heard this like a horse pulling a cart. Horse is sort of scientific thinking towards some goal. The cart's got all of our tools in it. Horse is going. And they stop. Why'd you stop? There's an obstacle in front of me. Oh, go check out the obstacle. Go get the correct tool. Clear that obstacle with just the correct tool.

Right, right.

You know.

Right.

And then. And carry on. And that's what we're doing. Right. With. With scientific thinking. Really. I mean, and, you know, you know, with your Six Sigma background. And I also have the same. Same background as well. And that's what DE was trying to do.

Right. You know, but so mentioning Damaic, that's a great example of the DOMIC framework. Right. It's a pattern you practice to learn how to effectively manage improvement projects. Right. Yeah, but, you know, it looks like a linear process. Right. But at what point does it become DM A? I am a I M a I M a I m a control. Right. That you can modify the pattern, the framework, and if you don't realize that you're inhibiting your growth. So that's my point. It's not just Toyota Kata, although that's a really good one because we've got kind of scripted written out. Here's a book. But we've got other frameworks, the ji, the four Step models, Six Sigma, we can get stuck following that pattern. So that questioning attitude of let's go through and question every element and understand why do we do that? What's the purpose.

How about this one? I think I already know the answer to it. But I'm guessing, like me, you're not a fan of the A3 template with the little box colored in for. This is how much space you have for your background. This is how much space you have. I mean, people ask us, hey, do you have an A3 template? Piece of paper, man? You already got a piece of paper, you know, and you just start writing, you know, and so that's another example.

Right.

And another example is like a fishbone diagram. Right. Traditional thing is I have this tempit. Well, what I found is people, you know, only put as much information as there's room.

Yeah.

Right. How about you take each. Each rib and give that its own sheet of paper.

Yeah.

And you just put it on sheets of paper. You know, like why, why restrict. What's the purpose?

Even simpler than that. How many times you see somebody on a flip sharp piece of paper and they're writing, they're brainstorming with their team and they're writing really small. I'm like, flip the page, man.

That's right. There's.

There's a backside of everything.

Same thing with the storyboard. Right. We use binders. Companies say, I don't, I don't have.

What do you mean you use binders?

I don't have room for all these over here, man.

What are you doing?

I don't room for all these whiteboards. Where am I going to put them all?

What do you mean your binder?

So we just create, just create a really, a regular three ring binder and put all the experiments in there.

So it's got a, you know, a sheet for tar condition, a sheet for actual condition, PDCA cycle record, an obstacle parking lot. But it's in a storybook instead of a story binder. Right.

You just carry it around.

Yeah. It's portable. So you know, when you're at the workstation that you can always do that. So again, you know, Rift, not everybody has places to put. Yeah. All. All these storyboards and have them visible. So again, going back to question it. Okay. What are the possible implications of doing that? Well, you know, you can't see everything at once.

Right.

Okay. Can you manage that? Is that a better choice than. Than putting the storyboard 100 yards away from the place? Because that's the only open wall space.

Yeah, right.

You know, it's just, Just understand. Right. Why you are doing things and then feel free to question it.

Yeah.

Modify it.

I can't do kata because I don't have space. No. Change the approach. Right.

What. What's your thought on the whole sort of digital movement, digital storyboards or whatever? Oh, I don't work in the same location or something like that.

I've. I've used remote boards all the time. There are plenty many people in the kata community that do remote coaching. I've seen them in Excel. I've. I've, like, take a picture your storyboard and send it in, whatever. Right. I mean, it's. It can. It can evolve to whatever the need is. Right, right. And if you look at, you know, Sylvain Landry's, you know, stuff, sometimes the artifacts can just go away. Sometimes you don't need the artifacts.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's more about the coaching questions. Why do we have somebody. Right. On a storyboard? Well, so we can see how they're thinking. That's one thing. So they can get practice, maybe using tools like run charts or whatever. So why are we. What's the purpose of having them do those things? And as long as you're asking those questions and you're reflecting and you're making choices based on those, as long as you understand the implications. Right. If you give somebody. If you. If I, you know, I'm not all wild, you know, I actually practice pretty.

Pretty.

Strictly pretty wild.

But. But if I. If I, you know, intended to give somebody the practice guide as a reference, and I'm not following any of that stuff.

Yeah.

Well, it's going to be more difficult for my learner to do that.

Yeah. Well, it becomes chaos. Right.

Becomes chaos. So if I'm. If I want to, you know, show them and, you know, I want to be able to give somebody a card and I want to model. Because that person's going to start coaching in six weeks. Well, I want to model the simpler. Just, you know, read the card, stick to the questions, you know, that. That type of stuff. But if I've been doing Kata for 100 days and I haven't considered changing anything about my kata practice.

Yeah.

I'm probably inhibiting my growth.

Yeah.

You know, but there are times to drop back in and practice. Exactly. And there are times to just not do that.

Yeah. You know, something I've been studying a lot lately. I'm fascinated with. It's not really lean, perhaps.

Perhaps.

But it's more just behavioral science is. Is like temperaments and in personality types and the role that that plays in coaching. You're clearly an extrovert. Clearly outspoken. Choleric is probably what the. I would call the definition If I were to, if you filled out the questionnaire, Mark, I don't know, you haven't said a whole lot, so maybe you're more introverted.

I'm more introverted for sure.

And so. And I don't think there's one's better than the other. They're just different. And I'm often curious if our temperaments and our personality types, you know, impact the way that we coach and lead far more than we realize. You know, because if you were to coach like one of my colleagues who was a strong introvert, they might be like, ah, you know, get back, you.

Know, but it, but it's, you know, this is an appropriate forum to be like that.

Yeah.

But sometimes I can be very quiet. So Mark's very, very good at reading the learner, reading non verbal communication and figuring out what is my learner need at this point. And sometimes they don't need extra stress. Sometimes they just need to understand it in simple terms.

Right?

Yeah.

What information would you need?

Right.

To be able to really grasp the current condition. Not here. We're going to do a run chart here. We're going to do.

They may be more comfortable in a conference room, one on one, sitting away from people instead of out on the factory floor.

Well, even the whole idea of a framework, you know, various personality types might. Some people value certainty big time.

Yeah.

Right. Just, just tell me.

Put the questions you're going to ask me on the wall so I can know them ahead of time pretty much.

Or what to expect and they can think better that way. You know, they really can. And so I don't know, it's just something that, that I've thought a lot about lately.

It's a huge piece.

Absolutely. The behavioral science stuff, neuroscience really more than anything. So yeah, it's, it's all interesting. It's all, it's all, it's all, it's all intertwined. Yeah, it's all intertwined.

Right. Absolutely.

So good stuff. What advice do you guys have for folks that might be okay? Let's flip it around. They're just getting started.

Yeah.

They're here at the AME conference and they went to a workshop and somebody talked about kata and they're like, what the hell is kata? You know, and, and now they're reading the book and practice God and all the rest of it. What do you advise them do? Follow the starter.

Follow the start of cutter. Yeah. Read so. And it varies. Right. But follow it until. One of the guides that I have is if the learner starts knowing what the questions are. Like, if you don't have to ask any questions, you just walk up to the storyboard and the learner starts going, okay, my target conditions this. My actual conditions this. My last step was that I expected this. They're just walking through the storyboard and they can make it through a complete coaching cycle without you having to do anything except for maybe ask some, you know, reflecting, deepening questions or whatever. Okay. They get the pattern, right. They've. They've learned the pattern. They understand the pattern. Now that would be a good time to say, okay, how can I effectively change the kata so that they can proceed to the next level? Where do they need to be? Do they need a deeper understanding of this? Now let's go and move beyond that. So I would generally just look for signals that indicate that somebody's ready for the next step. What does my learner need? Right, right. In the beginning, they may just need repetition and routine.

Yeah.

To follow it. So I would. I would do that. You know, it's. It's easier to point somebody the book because you can always go back in the reference and go to that. There are. I have a little bit of an issue with how deep you go into the starter kata for each one of the steps and like, requiring, you know, requiring somebody to do a run chart sometimes the, the work that they're doing. Can you fit it? Yeah, you know, you. You're on a kind of learning group and they'll. Well, you can, you can find a repetitive cycle in any work that you do. Yeah, you can, but sometimes you're trying to shoehorn something in, so. Yeah, but if you don't know enough on. On how to do that, then just follow the starter kata.

I mean, we're great.

I mean, I love. I love Mike's work.

Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I use a coaching kata framework, coaching our black belts and master black belts and green belts, using domic, but we're still using the framework to thinking, what do you think is going to happen? Like, really? I mean, that's the most powerful question in my opinion. Yeah. What do you think's going to happen?

Right.

And. No, no, no, no. What do you think? You know, because that's the one that people will, I find, gloss over more than any of the other questions. But without deep, deeply thinking about that question, your third question.

What.

Your third and fourth, what actually happened? What did you learn? They're flawed. That's where the deliberate practice comes into me, is if, without that second question, the third and Fourth are just like, eh.

Yeah. You know, And I found where people can struggle. So I led operations teams for years. So when I was. When I was starting to practice and I came on board with Scott, he says, let's go to. You should go to Katacon. And then I saw his topic and I'm like, kata are evil. Do we need a security detail? Scott, we're down there. So then when I started coaching, directing team for teams for so many years, I was giving leading questions. Right. I was trying to give them to give me the answer because I was used to doing that. So. So if you're in that arena and then you start coaching. Yeah. You have to learn to dial it back.

Yeah.

And really enable their learning.

Yeah.

Instead of guiding them to the answer. Right. So that was. And I had a couple of learners that got a little frustrated and we had to dial it back a little bit.

Right.

So that initially is. You have to understand who you are.

Yeah.

And then really how to deliver it so your learner doesn't become frustrated in their first sessions and then say, God, it sucks.

Yeah.

Right. We've got to learn to deliver it in a certain way. Right.

Well, yeah. Again, I think I brought Jennifer or Leslie, our sales team over here, when they first learned about kata several years ago. Like, this is how they sell. If they're talking to someone, I mean, it's just natural to them. Now they're trying to understand, like, where do you want to be?

Where are you now?

Can we possibly help you get a little bit further? If so, here's how we're going to do that. You know, so it's just. It's a consultative selling process using this.

Framework, and that's how TDO has evolved. All our, all our engagements with clients take that field.

Yeah. I mean, you're not selling anymore.

Right.

You've begun the improvement process, really helping people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I wish I would have learned this years ago as an operations leader. Like, man, this stuff's gold. Yep.

Right?

Yep. When you look back on it.

Exactly. Good stuff, man. Well, it's been fun, guys.

Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having us.

Thanks for having us.

Hey, if folks wanted to connect with. With you guys, what's the best way?

I'm on LinkedIn. Mark's on LinkedIn. We both have pro profiles up there. That's probably the easiest way. I, you know, I don't do much tweeting or posting on there, but I'm there if you need my contact information.

Yeah. And we'll put it in the show notes. So this is 251 episode 251 or two? 254 oh, yeah. 451. Greg's over here giving me hand signals. 451. What did I say? Two. Oh, yeah, we're way past two.

Gosh, you've been busy.

We have been busy. Yeah. Okay, great. Well, I appreciate it, guys.

Well, thanks for answering bikes.

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