GA 453 | Navigating the Struggle of Learning with Katie Anderson

Under this sense of time pressure and constraints, we cut out the most important part of the learning process, which is the space for reflection, the study. In the plan, do study, adjust, cycle, because we're going, going, going, and it feels easier to cut that out.

Today, I'm excited to welcome Katie Anderson back to the show. Now, the last time Katie and I spoke in person was in, I believe, 2019 at the AME conference in Chic. And so we were able to meet up in Dallas here at the AME Conference. It was funny. Right before the AME Chicago conference, Katie was just about ready to launch her book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. In fact, she didn't even have the title yet. So it was fun to kind of hear a couple years later how things have gone with the book. It's gone extremely well and bestseller and all the rest of it. And so talk a little bit about the book, but then we get in more. More of a conversation on whole idea of. Of learning and then even struggle and how. How to navigate through the struggle that often comes when we're trying to learn new things. So Katie's fantastic. I think you're going to like this episode. I always love talking with her. Her energy is very contagious. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode four. 53. Again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode four.

53.

Okay, enough from me. Let's. Katie, welcome back to the show. How are you?

I'm great, Ron. It's so good to be back in person with you.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I said. We were just saying the last time that we saw each other was in 2019, I believe.

Yep.

In Chicago.

Yes.

@Ame.

Yep.

Wow. A few things have happened since then.

In the world, right? Personally.

Yeah. Your book.

My book.

Because we were talking about your book and that. I think we've done another one since that, where we actually dove into your book. But yeah, in ame, we were. You hadn't launched it yet.

No. And actually on that episode that we recorded in Chicago, I still had a different title for the book, which is all about Hansei and reflection.

That's right.

I ended up going with Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn to Talk, sort of the meta experience of what it means to be a leader and a learner. But this concept of reflection still is so important.

Yeah. So what's been going on?

Yeah, well, I'm right now in the midst of the global book tour for my book. It's really exciting to have been able to impact so many people. And the book's been translated into multiple languages, so in Polish, I'm going off to Colombia for the Spanish conference and Japanese and Portuguese. So that's been.

Congratulations.

Thank you. It's a lot of travel in a short period, but it's so energizing for me to be here in Dallas and to be other places to connect with people and. And then there were a lot of ups and downs in the pandemic. I'm a mom of two elementary school age kids and that was tough. But a real blessing in my life was first I thought, should I publish a book in the early stages of a pandemic? And I went forward with it and it was so wonderful to be able to talk about these stories and experiences of failure and success and managing through tough times. And that gave me an anchor point. And it's also been so rewarding to know that I've been able to help other people to move through challenging times because. And that we all sort of help each other. And so, yeah, it's been a. It's been, you know, it's. I find it interesting. People I haven't seen in three years. Like, how's it been for three years? And you're like, oh, it's great, but not great at the same time. But I'm great now. But it's, you know, I think that's how we all have had these different experiences.

100%. 100%. So, Katie, in case folks didn't hear previous episodes, give us a quick rundown on your background and, and what you do.

Yeah. Great. I'm a leadership and learning coach based in the San Francisco Bay area. I also wear a hat with Ame. I run the San Francisco Bay area lean consortia out there. And I'm also a speaker and the author of the now bestselling and award winning book, Learning to lead. Leading to learn.

That's so cool.

Yeah. And I'm starting to run my Japan study tours again now that the Japanese borders have opened again.

Great.

And I came from a background in healthcare, but work with industries of all different. All different diverse types of sizes and types of industries. So it's about leadership.

Yeah. Give me one of your. You know, we always like to kind of go with a quote at the beginning. Do you have a favorite quote from Mr. Yoshino or somebody like that or.

There are so many quotes. He's like Yoda of so much wisdom, where you're like, that was a golden nugget. But the one I talk about the most is the opening quote of the book. And to me, it's the key takeaway, which is the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning. And I think in a lot of the lean world, we didn't see that as much. It was easier to focus on tools and processes, even respect for people.

I mean, you know, like tools, respect for people. What about learning?

Yes, and it was all about learning. Like all the frameworks, everything's about learning and learning. And that's where respect for people comes into. How do we foster learning for other people? So that's a secret. It's invisible, but it's there.

Yeah, I love it. Well, let's dig in. I mean, obviously the book has a large focus on leadership and just whole idea of learning. So I want to kind of dig into just the whole idea of learning because we talk a lot about this on the podcast. You know, quit trying to solve problems, Learn. Learn to learn faster and repeat and experiment your way forward. But let's dig in from your perspective. What are our lean thinkers? What should we be doing as it relates to learning?

One of the most often talked about concepts that I have with anyone, from leadership groups to individuals, as it relates to learning is how under this sense of time pressure and constraints, we cut out the most important part of the learning process, which is the space for reflection, the study in the plan, do study, adjustments, cycle, because we're going, going, going, and it feels easier to cut that out. But when we do, that's what, you know, we miss out really on that learning. So how do we start bringing in even micro moments of reflection space to think and to hold ourselves, you know, giving us space to think and to learn. Because when we're just constantly moving, we don't have that opportunity to have a different perspective or to take a look back.

So is it safe to say, do you believe that if we don't take time to reflect, we can't really learn?

Yes, I would say that because we're, I mean, if, even if you think about sports analogy, like the coach is in the locker room, you're looking, you know, doing playbacks, looking at things, giving feedback, and that's where that improvement is. What's the adjustment we're gonna make for next time? What are we gonna do differently? That's where the learning is. But if you just kept going without taking a look back and adjustment, you aren't improving. Cause you just keep repeating or just throwing darts.

Right? Well, even from like, you know, Toyota Kata scientific thinking perspective, one of the things That I, that I really appreciate that about that framework, in addition to the reflection, is the prediction.

Yes.

What do you think is going to happen?

Yes, well. And that's the framework for your reflection. Right.

So, yeah.

What, what, what do you expect to happen? What actually happened.

Yeah.

And then that learning zones in, in between. Right.

And without one or the other.

No, you have to have it framed as an experiment. And you also have to give yourself the space to actually say, well, what did it happen the way we thought it was going to? If not, why not? And even like Mr. Yoshino says this too. And if you did succeed to do the thing you thought was gonna happen, well, learn about what went right about that so you can replicate it. And so we just, we don't do that very well.

How come? Why don't we do that?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I teach this and I still find myself, you know, doing it. I think it's human nature, especially when we are under a sense of urgency. Even if it's like a sort of false sense of urgency, not a true crisis.

Well, you're, you're a driven.

Yeah.

Person. You know, and I could, you know, you can just feel your energy when you see Katie. And so, like, so am I. Right. And I feel like we get going and you want to just move forward. You want progress, you want action, you know, and sometimes that can be a problem.

Right. And, and so a strategy I've developed for myself is, you know, to create, you know, block time on my calendar, even if it's, you know, 20, 30 minutes. Finding ways and structures to support that habit.

Yeah.

Because I know it's so important.

Yeah.

And it can't be. Sometimes it doesn't happen certain days. But when I can create that structure.

It helps enable, you know, what I started to do. So a few of my buddies, we, we, we, we go for the moments where we talk about silence. And, and so in the car, like even this morning, I was driving here to the conference. I'm. It's local for me, you know, so like a 45 minute drive. And so I listen to this little podcast a little bit, for a little bit, and then, and then I just turn it off. This is nothing, just silence. And you just drive. You know, sometimes I think, sometimes I just drive, but it's just like I feel like having those moments of silence where you just, you can think, but if you get the radio going, you get the podcast going or whatever, I mean, here we are talking about podcasts. Listen to this podcast all the way through before you go silent. But you know what I'm saying, Like, having those moments to, I don't know, just think, you know, I think are super important.

Well, absolutely. And this. So the corollary to that is also when we are interacting with other people to allow some space for the actual reflection. So so often we're in the habit of, like, in this, moving fast to ask a question, and if within one second someone doesn't answer, we either start filling the space, asking another question, moving on. And, you know, so I have really, like, when I facilitate or I'm working with other people, I have to consciously count to 10. And it feels excruciating.

Like a hundred.

I know, but people speak up in like 7, 8, 9. And so we have to give that space and invite people to have reflection.

Yeah. I actually did this live training class recently, and it was another guy I was working with, and he was newer to. He not very experienced and he was doing a great job, but he was very nervous. And so to that point he would say something and the class are just kind of like looking at him. And then he would just. I was like, be okay with the silence, you know, Be okay with a pause, you know, just embrace the pause, you know, and. But it's hard.

It is hard. And I actually am very explicit. I tell people, I'm going to count to 10 to give space for you to think. And it makes. It sort of takes away the discomfort. And then people know what I. Why I'm doing it. It models the way, and it helps me acknowledge my own discomfort with it. So they're not like, oh, this is incredibly awkward. They know it's intentional.

Yeah. So discomfort. I want to talk about that.

Yeah.

Struggle. No, because this is not easy. These things that we're talking about, learning lean, continuous improvement. Got a recession in it or coming, probably, right. I mean, who knows? So we're constantly against obstacles that are in our way. What's your take on how to best deal with that? How to best navigate through difficulty?

Yeah. Well, first and foremost, though, I have another gift for you, which you can't see this, but I have a daruma for Ron. And they are these Japanese figures that represent the proverb fall down seven times, get up eight. And I think this is really linked to very well to the concept of struggle. Our path to achieving a goal or something that we, you know, an output that we want doesn't happen just easily there. You're going to get knocked down and have setbacks. And so to give ourselves grace and permission for not being perfect immediately. And I think in we kind, we know this, like, we all have experience of this. You know, maybe you're learning an instrument or a new sport, and we give ourselves more space for that. But when we're in a leadership role, we feel like we have to be the expert or the perfect person or showing up. And so to show that you don't know how to do everything right or that you're struggling with maybe not jumping in with all the answers or you're struggling with some silence, it feels really awkward. And we don't know what to do with that when we are in a leadership or a facilitation or a coaching role. And so one of the things I've been really thinking about a lot is this concept of struggle as it relates to our growth as people, leaders. And how do we create, I guess, an environment that gives permission for us to be imperfect and to go through that struggle, but still to be a strong leader, but being okay to know that it's gonna feel awkward to do something new and you're not gonna do it right, but you have to keep practicing it.

Yeah. So how do you do that as a leader when you're the one who's supposed to know what to do? People are looking at you like, katie, what do we do?

Yeah, it's very same thing I just mentioned about in a facilitator role. I say, why I'm counting to 10. It's to be transparent and label what you're doing and label what's happening. Because this also shows the sort of humility that you are, you know, you are the leader, but you're also, what's the purpose behind it? Like, I want to help create space for you to learn. I'm usually. I know you're used to me giving all the answers. I'm really going to start practicing asking some better questions. And so, you know, just even saying that to people gives them an understanding of why you're doing something, but also gives you some, I don't know, space or validation for that you're trying something new.

Yeah.

And I really. These were. We're afraid to be transparent on these things, but actually it is the enabler for creating a better learning culture is to be clear that we're trying something new, the purpose behind it, and that we are going to be struggling a bit.

Why do you said that we're afraid of being transparent or afraid? Why do you think? Where does this fear come from?

You know, if I think back to it and in My own experiences, and I know others as well. You know, we're rewarded in our, you know, as we're sort of growing up to be. Have the right answer in school and earlier in our careers to like, be the doer who gets things done and gets it done. And, you know, that's really rewarding. And so we're used to kind of putting it all into being, being right or having the answer. And so as we get more senior in our careers or we're in a different type of role, that's also to develop people to shift what sort of success looks like in our role. It feels awkward. We're so used to being that person with the answers. So to then say, actually my role is not to have all the answers all the time or is to be doing. Trying something different. It feels uncomfortable because our sort of traditional model of leadership is the person who does have all the answers and knows where you're going. And it doesn't mean you can't have confidence or that you. There isn't a point for you to have a perspective, but it's also to show that you are imperfect. And I. Yeah, it's. I mean, I think about my own experiences. It's uncomfortable to like, be in front of people and to feel a little awkward about not being super polished on something.

What do you think? You've been at this lean thing for a while. What do you think the future? I don't know. When I say future, maybe the next three to five years looks like for our movement, this whole lean, continuous improvement movement.

That's a great question. You know, I'm encouraged to see and hear much more focus on culture and leadership behaviors and an acknowledgement of these concepts like struggle in learning as well. And like, we all know, like, struggle is where the learning happens. I think getting better at knowing the tools from process improvement perspective, but really creating that sustainability of a culture through leaders at all levels shifting their behavior. I see a lot more focus on the concept of learning more broadly, moving away from just focusing on, say, point improvement projects. Those are super great and important, but looking more holistically about how are we developing people, how are we creating a culture and an environment, to use the buzzword of psychological safety, but it's so important where people can bring forward problems. So I think this makes it more appealing to a broader audience too, who may say, oh, that lean thing, I don't know much about that, but when we talk about learning, when we talk about safety, when we talk about people development and engagement, that those are really Inviting concepts.

So in the spirit of scientific thinking, if we were to make a prediction over the next one to two years, which again, as we mentioned, potential recession and all the rest of it, what do you think's going to, how do you think lean thinking, continuous improvement will play a role in helping companies navigate those difficult waters?

I think even just a lot of the companies I work with as clients or who are in my AME consortia have spoken about how their management system was incredibly helpful for them navigating through this crisis. Now, they weren't able to do as many sort of projects, but they were able to use the connections and the thinking and quick, quick problem solving to deal with things in a crisis. And I work with a lot of healthcare organizations too. So like, you know, how do you, how do you set up all these vaccination clinics so we can use those same concepts to really help pull us through? And we need to not just have continuous improvement, but innovation. So how do we harness the collective amazing ideas of our people and always go back to the same concept of like, we need to set our direction, like, where do we need to go, what's needed for our customers, whoever our customer is. And then how are we get gathering the creativity and input of people all along the way to, to even exceed what we think might be possible?

Yeah, I, I, you know, we're starting to see it, you know, you know, there's some pressure on some companies right now and it's like, well, are they going to like, get rid of the continuous improvement group or are they going to lean into it and understand that we can control costs, we can control, you know, that's really what we have control over. We don't have control over the market.

Right, right.

And when I say control cost, I don't mean reducing headcount.

No, no. But all the other factors. Exactly. Bottom line.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what I'm hoping.

Me too.

That we see.

It's been really encouraging and exciting to see how many organizations were already on sort of a lean journey, found it as a leverage point for being able to manage through the pandemic. And now they're even seeing it's going.

To be the enabler for the next.

For the next, whatever it is.

Yeah. And there's always going to be a next something. Right. I mean, that's the world we live in.

So.

Yeah. Awesome. Good stuff. So what's next for Katie Anderson? Yeah, I mean, besides your big.

I know it's almost hard for me to think forward, like, what's what's happening now. You know what I'm super excited for is I haven't seen Mr. Yoshino, the subject of my book, for three years. So I'm going to Japan on a trip in January, and I'm really looking forward to connecting with him. You know, I know I have another book in me at some point, but I. It's not. It's not coalesced yet. So I'm just really happy.

You gotta come back on the Gemba Academy podcast and sort of announce it, you know, Tradition now.

Yes, yes. You know, I'm really just excited to be back in person and connecting with people. And I also love the fact that we can do work, we can have a hybrid where we can do some work virtually, but just being in person as well. And I'm just noodling on these concepts of things like struggle and learning and how are, how do we get more comfortable with that so that we can accelerate our own improvement and then accelerate the improvement of our team and our organizations too.

Struggling to learn.

Yeah, struggling to learn. Yeah. But it's, you know, but like the struggles where the learning happens, we know this. We know this. So it's like, how do we. How do we come okay with it?

The learning's in the struggle.

Yeah, it is. There you go. There's your book title. Yeah, it's Learning in the Struggle and it's in the reflection and the adjustment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, well, awesome. Hey, if folks want to connect with you, Katie, what's the best way?

So the best way to connect with me either is on LinkedIn, katyanderson, KBJ Anderson, or my website, which is kbjanderson.com and of course my book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. And of the many Gemba Academy podcasts that I've been on as well. So you couldn't even know how many it's been.

We'll link them all up. Jessica will get them linked up.

Yeah.

Awesome.

It's great. Well, thank you, Ron. It's so awesome to see you in person and. Yeah, continue with the struggle and the reflection.

Let's keep learning. Yep. Awesome.

Thanks, Katie. Bye, Ron.

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