GA 456 | “This Is Water” by David Foster Wallace with Alex Judd

There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way who nods at them and says, morning boys, how's the water? And the two young fish swim on for a bit and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, what the hell is water?

Hey everyone, this is Ron Perera and this is the final episode of the Gemba Academy podcast for 2022. Now, before we get to the show, I wanted to thank you for taking the time listen to the podcast, and man, we're just so thankful for the opportunity to talk to so many amazing guests and to do our very best to add some value each and every week. And I also wanted to thank my Gemba Academy colleagues for the many, many hours they spend producing and sharing the podcast each week. Greg, Jessica, Natalie, and so many others do so much behind the scenes and I just want to thank them for all their hard work and their efforts. To be clear, I think I have the easiest job of all when it comes to doing this podc. Now, with all that said, today's episode isn't your normal, lean thinking 30 minute podcast. Instead, it's an extremely different, much longer than normal podcast. I asked my friend Alex Judd to come back onto the show in order to help me explore and discuss one of the most powerful commencement addresses I've ever listened to. Now, this particular commencement address, usually referred to as the this is Water Talk, was given by Mr. David Foster Wallace back in 2004. Now, we're going to link to the full commencement address in the show notes, so please do listen or read it all the way through. But today Alex and I listen to parts of the talk and then discuss it. Now, I also want to let you know that Alex and I are both Christians, and while religion and things of faith don't often come up on the Gemba Academy podcast, it does today. And finally, I would really love to hear your thoughts on this particular podcast. Now, there's some big questions asked during this talk, and Alex and I share some of our thoughts on the potential answers to these big questions. But I'd love to hear what you think, so feel free to comment on social media or you can also email me directly@rongembaacademy.com now, show notes will include links to the actual commencement address and that can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 456. Again gembapodcast.com and look for episode 400. 456. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Alex, welcome back to the show. How's it going, my man Ron?

Doing so good, thank you. I've been looking forward to this conversation ever since you sent an email. I was like, wow, this is gonna go deep fast. So this will be fun, man.

Yeah, I, I, yeah, I'm so excited as well. I've been thinking a lot about this, this episode and this, this talk that we're gonna, we're gonna, going to dive into.

Okay. So I had to, I had to ask you because I haven't asked you this yet. You sent an email with this talk and I never heard of the talk before and it was basically like, basically the talk is a keynote on what is truth and does truth exist. I was wondering if, I was wondering if you could check this out and then we could chat about this was like, oh my gosh, like.

You know, what is true?

And I was just so interested. I was like, okay, what, why is Ron so interested in this? What, what is his angle? What is his goal for his audience? What, like why these questions now? So I just love to hear a little bit of the purpose and motivation behind this conversation.

Yeah, so I, I had heard that, and we're going to be sharing aspects of this, this particular commencement speech by Mr. David Foster Wallace as we, as we navigate our way through this episode. But I actually, I had heard this, the opening part where they talk about two fish swimming along. And that's why I've heard of that before. But I had not ever heard the whole talk until this guy I newsletter that I get, this other marketing guy, Sahil Bloom's his name, really good, really interesting guy. And he, he said that he reads this talk or listens to it every year just as sort of to reframe his thoughts, process and all that kind of all the rest of it. So I thought, huh, that's interesting. So I, I first I, I read it, they had this and we'll, we're going to share the links to, to, to the talk for everybody to, to go listen and listen and read it themselves. But I, I read it and then I listened to it and then I was like, whoa, man, that's, there's some deep stuff in there. And like you, I think there's, there's aspects of it that I strongly agree with and then there's other aspects of the talk where I'm just like, huh, I don't know if I agree, but I don't know how to refute it. But, you know, so like I just, it just Made me really think, you know, and so, yeah, like, why do I want to talk about this? Why'd I ask you? I feel like there's so much of like, you know, in particular the. The audience of Gemba Academy. And I even think for, For. For. For you guys, path for growth that we're all seeking truth in some sense, right? Like from like within the lean world and our lean movement. You know, we're always trying to make things better, right? And so there's typically better ways to do things, meaning there's worse ways to do things. So in a way there's truth, you know, even within sort of continuous improvement or business leadership. Right. A leader can go one direction or the other direction, and one direction typically is better. So in a way, that's truth. Right? And so. But there's obviously much deeper meanings to that, you know, a sort of meaning of life and depending on your, Your. Your thought beliefs there and your spiritual beliefs and all that. There's just so much in this that it. Just the way that I described this to, To a friend of mine is just. It's just. It's a haunting commencement speech. It's. It's haunting. It's beautiful, but it's haunting at the same point. And I think the reason, obviously, as you know, Alex, and our listeners don't May not know this gentleman, David. David Foster Wallace. Sadly, this, this talk was. This commencement speech, I think, was in 2005, and then three years later, he. In 2008, he committed suicide. Apparently he was battling depression and different things like that. And so that I didn't know that until after I had read all this, but then after I knew that, then I went back and listened and read again, and I even saw it in a completely different light. So I don't know if that answers your question, but it's just. It just really made me think. And I wouldn't say it challenged me or anything like that or made me doubt anything, but just. It just really made me think. And I just thought of one person. I don't know why, Alex, but it was like, I want to talk about this with someone who could.

I.

And I got a lot of other folks I probably could have called. I want to hurt anybody's feelings that I didn't call them, but, man, I.

I just figured to myself, there's no way I was first on his list. Probably the first four people. The first four people pro probably said.

No, you were number one, my man.

100%.

100%. So, yeah, I. I've been looking Forward to this conversation because.

And.

And, you know, we talked about this the last time we spoke. I. He's probably one of the thought leaders that has most influenced me in the past five years is Jordan Peterson. And one of the things that he says in his book 12 Rules for Life is he says good conversation, which most people don't actually engage in. And I was certainly. I certainly fell for this. I didn't. I didn't engage in this type of conversation. But he said, really good conversation, the best type of conversation, is akin to what he would call mutual exploration. Yeah. And I just. I just love that because I'm the type of person that my natural proclivity is to engage in conversations about things that I know that are certain and that I'm like, I'm solid on and. Because I like to appear as though I have things figured out. And I think most leaders especially do, but when. When you encounter something like this, it's like, oh, my gosh, I have, like, none of this figured out. Like, I. I have a billion times more questions than I do answers on this stuff. And I certainly have opinions, but I don't even know why I have the opinions that I have. And so I was just so looking forward to this as an opportunity of like, okay, let's see if we can maybe find a little bit more solid ground than when we started this podcast.

Yeah.

And that's the cool thing about this medium of a podcast is it's like, oh, we'll just invite hundreds of our friends to. On as we kind of stumble through this together.

Right. 100%. And so the way that we're going to go about this for the folks listening is we're going to play aspects we won't. Well, we're not going to work through the whole talk. I want everyone to go out and listen to the whole talk. You really should listen to it or read it. I'd encourage you to do both. There's different pathways in your brain being triggered when you read versus listen. But we're going to play certain aspects of it, and then you and artists are going to comment on what we just heard. So does that work?

I love it. Yeah, I think it's just going to be an absolute blast.

And we didn't even introduce who you are, but you're. You're. You're in episode 446. So people just heard from you not so long ago, but real fast, you know, tell us about Alex Path for Growth, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. I'm the founder of a Business called Path for Growth. And we say that we exist to help impact driven leaders step into who they were created to be so that others benefit and God is glorified. And the way we do that, the way that mission comes to life, is we provide one on one coaching, team trainings, and in person experiences that help business owners grow their business while reducing stress. And so that's what we do. I'm originally a Texas kid, so that's why sometimes I talk a little bit too loud. And hopefully I'm not too obnoxious on this podcast today, but I'm looking forward to it.

Awesome. Awesome. All right, let's get into this. And it starts with a bang.

Greetings. Thanks and congratulations to Kenyon's graduating class of 2005. There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way who nods at them and says, morning boys, how's the water? And the two young fish swim on for a bit and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, what the hell is water?

I mean, what a way to open a commencement speech.

I mean, it's right out of the gate, man, you know, just, whoa, what is water?

Yeah. So what is like that story? Because I think you told me that that was what you were first most familiar with from this talk.

Yeah, I'd heard this, like, people have made like little YouTube clips with just that, that little part of the story, you know, and that it just stands alone and just that alone, just like fish swimming along and like, what's water? Don't even realize all that's around them. Right. That's keeping them alive. Think about water and fish, right?

Oh, man, they die.

Right. They have to be in water or they don't live. Right. But they take it for granted because it's just, it's just there, you know, And.

Yeah. And they have, they have no clue that it's even there is what's going on. And I feel like, I mean, almost immediately it was, it was interesting to hear him tell the story. And then in the recording, it's like everyone laughs. And I heard that and I was like, that right there is the chuckle of recognition. Right? It's like everyone just generally laughing like, oh, and. And it's because we find those, I think the, the chuckle there. This is my theory is like the reason why we laugh at that story is because we find it so wildly relatable.

Yeah.

It's like, oh my gosh, we have no clue what we're actually involved in right now, right.

What's going on here? I can. I imagine, you know, if my, my, one of my kids was graduating and I'm sitting there so excited for this next thing. This guy's standing up there talking about, what the hell know? Like, where is this going on? A commencement speech? So let's see. Trying to decide if, again, we're not going to listen to the whole thing today. But I want to kind of go through different aspects of it, because the very next paragraph he talks about, you know, that, you know, the standard requirement for, you know, speeches is that you got to tell little didactic parabolic stories, you know, and, you know, if you listen to other commencement speeches, you hear that a lot. And. But what he's trying to do here is, is I think, set things up for just some really deep thinking. And he even goes on to say that, don't worry, I'm not. I'm not going to stand up there and pretend that I'm the old wise fish and that I got it all figured out. Right? But, but, but, yeah, so that's how he starts. So let's go on to this, the third paragraph, because again, he's speaking to this graduating class, Kenyan University. I've never even heard of that. Have you heard of that?

No, no. Never heard of Kenyan University.

Okay, so here we go.

Of course, the main requirement of speeches like this is that I'm supposed to talk about your liberal arts education's meaning to try to explain why the degree you're about to receive has actual human value instead of just a material payoff. So let's talk about the single most pervasive cliche in the commencement speech genre, which is that a liberal arts education is not so much about filling you up with knowledge as it is about, quote, teaching you how to think.

Okay, so he goes on to say that, don't worry, I'm not going to say that you need to learn how to think because you obviously know how to think or you wouldn't have gotten to this college. But I thought it was interesting that he said he's setting the stage now because I know what's about to come, but he's setting a stage for the ability to think critically being one of, if not the greatest strengths that we as human beings have. What do you think about that? What about this idea of being able to think being in one way the point of an education?

Yeah. Isn't that interesting? And the fact that he's saying it's cliche and that's not what this is about is also really interesting. But in some ways, in telling people we're not going to talk about how to think, he's teaching them how to think. Right. He's saying, I don't want you to think about how to think, which is so interesting. In terms of your question related to the power and value of critical thinking, though, man, I think it's one of my overarching takeaways from this entire talk. And. And it's just the idea of a posture of humility often looks like the person that is willing to question everything. And there's very few things that they say. I'm certain on this because certainty is actually really, really dangerous. And there's not actually that many things that we can actually be certain on. And so there are some things, but you just better not take those things for granted and you better know why you're certain on them. And. And so I think what he's saying here is, is. Or what he's getting to here is like, have an awareness that the things that you take for granted as certain might not be so certain. And don't get on this prideful high horse of saying, the way I view the world is the world. Because the argument that I think he's making is that is incorrect.

Yeah, let's keep going.

Here's another didactic little story. There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist. And the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beard. And the atheist says, look, it's not like I don't have actual reasons for not believing in God. It's not like I haven't ever experienced. Experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month, I got caught away from camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn't see a thing. And it was 50 below. And so I tried it. I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out, oh, God, if there is a God, I'm lost in this blizzard and I'm going to die if you don't help me. And now in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist, all puzzled. Well, then you must believe now. He says. After all, here you are alive. The atheist just rolls his eyes. No, man, all that was was a couple Eskimos happened to come wandering by, and they showed me the way back to camp.

Wow. So this is probably the point in the talk that really caught my attention. I mean, I think Most people listening. And this is not going to be like a big religious, you know, sermon by, by Ron and Alex by any means, but, but I am a, I'm a person of faith and I know you are as well. So I thought, boy, this is a. Where are we going here? Are we gonna. Is he, is he, is he gonna take a side? Right? So, like, what were you thinking when you, at this point, when you heard what he, what he laid out there with this?

I think the biggest thing that I was thinking was where are we going? Just like you a question mark of like, okay, how, how what? Still not entirely clear. And what is the argument that he's making here? Which again, in some ways I appreciate, but in other ways, knowing how things ended, it's also really sad. But I appreciate his cynicism towards normally accepted cliches and, and normalities. Right. Like, he's clearly not on board with that stuff. And, and so I think that's really cool. But I think also, I mean, like, even just in this story, it like he's already raising questions that from my perspective, here's where I started to land on this particular story is like, okay, life, period, regardless of what you believe, life demands faith, you know, and, and because you're never really certain on the future, you can maybe, if you're, if you're aware, be certain on the past and be certain on what's now. And that's if you're lucky, right? That's if you're really paying attention.

But.

But you can't ever be certain on the future. And the. Isn't a perfect predictor of the future. And so therefore. Well, the, the opposite of faith is not doubt. Someone once said, they said the opposite of faith is certainty. And so the only person that is operating without faith is the person that says, I know exactly what's going to happen and how it's going to happen. And you don't really meet that, that many of those people. And so I think one of the things that already stood out to me in this story, Ron, is like, he's already making an argument for faith in, in some, but not necessarily faith in the God that you and I believe in or a different God. He's just making an argument for faith as something that is principally real.

Yeah, yeah. And that's coming later on the whole idea of you are going to worship something, whether it's a God or something else.

What was it that stood out about that story to you? Like, is there something in that story?

Yeah, and I think that this is probably where it really, the hook really set in for me at this, on this paragraph, you know, on that statement that he just made there, that story, because, you know, and just again, not to be all preachy or anything like that, but the whole idea of, of, of faith and something, whether that's God or you know, the person driving towards you on the road, you have faith in a way that they're going to stay to the left of that yellow line and they're not going to swerve in front of you. If you didn't have faith in that or sort of some belief pattern in that, you would never drive a car. Right? So, so, so for me, what it really started to kind of made me revisit, and it's something that I revisit often really just in my own sort of spiritual journey is, you know, you, you, you never can know for sure on, on anything, whether it's religion or the guy coming towards you on the road. But you do have faith and you do need to, you gotta choose, right? That, that's kind of where I'm at and what I kind of teach my kids, you know, as this thing I've ever heard of Pascal's wager? I don't know if you've ever heard.

Of that, but I, I have heard of it, but you're gonna have to.

Pascal's wager. And again, this is more on a, on the spiritual side, but again, I'm sorry if this sounds like a preaching sermon, but you know, Pascal's wager is that, you know, you can bet for or against a higher power. Okay, call it God. Okay, you can bet for or against. And, and, and so you, you place your bet, right? So I bet for, I bet for, against this, this high power. Okay, cool. So then, then there's there, then there's the truth. Okay? So the truth is there either is or there isn't. Okay. Like those are two options, right? You're correct or you're incorrect. We even talk about this in statistics, right? When we're talking about, you know, deciding probabilities and things like that, you have to make a choice on how certain you are on something. So let's just say then that we place the bet for that higher power and let's say that we were right. Okay? You chose correctly. If you think about a four quadrant kind of thing, if you could draw it up, okay, and you were right, well then there's potentially, if you believe in this, like an infinite gain, right? Okay, so then you could bet for that higher power and you could be wrong. It could be the biggest farce. You know, the Bible could be all this. It could be nonsense. And it was the biggest hoax of the world, right? Of modern. Okay, so let's just say that that's actually the case in that there is no. It was all made up and there is no higher power or anything. But you believed in it. So what have you lost? Well, maybe some fun, you know, you know, that sort of thing. Right. Okay, so that, those are your two options there, right, for that one. But if you, if you're, if you, if you bet against that higher power, right, and let's say there is one, then you have potentially infinite loss. Right? Like infinite loss. Okay. And, and, and then if, if there wasn't and you bet against it, you know, you could say, well, what do you be gain? I would contend that maybe you would, you know, you wouldn't have had as good a life as you could have anyhow, because, you know, maybe you didn't treat your, your wife or your husband as well as you could have. And you know what I'm saying? Like, so, so in a way it's like, why would you not. Way so. Like, that's what I was thinking about when he was telling the story is this the importance of you. You do have to choose. You do have to. And that's where I sort of deviate from, from Mr. Foster's long term thought process and that, you know, later on he talks about a capital T. Truth, you know, and that's where I started, like, boy, that's why I started to wrestle with him a little bit, you know, my mind.

That's right. And you're already kind of giving. Giving a prelude to this. But, you know, I would have never called it this, but I had a, I had a room in college that he, he was basically voicing Pascal's wager. He went to church with me a couple weekends in college. And he, he was, he was a frat guy that was partying every night that wasn't Sunday morning. Right. Like, he would go to church on Sunday morning and then every other night. Like he was living a very different lifestyle. Right. And one day we were walking back from church and, and he said, you know, the way I see it, it's like, you know, if I believe and I'm wrong, that. It's just like I believed and I, I was wrong, but if I don't believe and I'm wrong, then it's really bad. Right. And. And I was like, okay, logically correct. Exactly. But Also, if, if you actually believe, what does believe actually mean? Well, it means to be living with. Right. It means that your life aligns with what you say is true and that that is. And so in reality you may say like, okay, like, yeah, I, I believe this, you know, because it, it prevents the risk of what could happen if it happens to be true. And it's like, okay, but your life says otherwise. Yeah. Do you actually believe this? And this isn't me getting on a high horse. I think this is actually like one of the most practical things that we can all do that doesn't even necessarily have to be related to your religion. Here's a really cool audit that can come out of listening to a talk like this. What do my actions, my calendar, and my conversations tell me about what I believe? And maybe even your expenditures too, because you may have all these professed statements about what you believe, but where is that showing up in where you spend your money, where you spend your time? And what does that say about what you actually think is true? Because I can be the type of person, I say all the time. People matter most. Okay. If I'm spending days at a time not having engaging real relationship oriented conversations with people, I don't actually believe that. Right, right. Because I'm living completely out of alignment with that. And so it just hits home for me, like our beliefs are not necessarily just our professions of truth. It is what our life says about what we believe is true.

Let's keep going. This, this is the following paragraph after the one we just read.

It's easy to run the story through a kind of standard liberal arts analysis. The exact same experience can mean two totally different things to two different people, given those people's two different belief templates and two different ways of constructing meaning from experience. Because we prize tolerance and diversity of belief, nowhere in our liberal arts analysis do we want to claim that one guy's interpretation is true and the other guy is false or bad. Which is fine, except we also never end up talking about just where these individual templates and beliefs come from. Meaning where they come from inside the two guys. As if a person's most basic orientation toward the world and the meaning of his experience were somehow just hardwired like height or shoe size, or automatically absorbed from the culture like language, as if how we construct meaning we're not actually a matter of personal intentional choice. Plus, there's the matter of arrogance. The non religious guy is so totally certain in his dismissal of the possibility that the passing Eskimos had anything to do with his prayer for help. True, there are plenty of religious people who seem arrogantly certain of their own interpretations too. They're probably even more repulsive than atheists. Atheists, at least to most of us. But religious dogmatist problem is exactly the same as the story's unbeliever, blind certainty. A close mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn't even know he's locked up.

Oh man, there's a lot in there.

Yeah. What's your biggest takeaway from that section, Ron?

Oh my gosh. Well, you know, it challenges you. Again, we've made it clear where we stand, you know, on our, in our thought process as it relates to higher, higher thinking and higher beings and so forth. But you know, he talks about, you know, that the believer and non believer really aren't so different if they're convicted about their particular belief. And I think he's right. I think he's right. You know, if you choose one way or another, you probably should have a reason for that choice. Right? You have some reason for that choice.

Well, I was just going to say on that line, like what comes to mind for me is first Peter 3 says, Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you've been given. Yeah, and it's exactly what you just said. It's like have a reason. And this applies to us whether we are Christian or not. Why do you believe what you believe? Because what, what you believe is what you are organizing your life around. And if you organize your life around an unintentional belief system, your life will look extremely unintentional and probably very depressing. But I also think, and I crave this, I crave certainty. I love, I love that he used the word dogmatic in that section because just looking up the definition of dogmatic, it's a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

Yeah, dogma.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's so helpful for like, although like as a, like a little bit of an anti authoritarian, like I want to stick it to the man, stuff like that. Right. Like I say, I don't like that. But in reality there's a lot of safety and comfort and security to be found in dogma. And so in some ways one of my biggest takeaways from this section is to recognize and look in the mirror and say I have this incredible proclivity to fall for an ideology that I become imprisoned by and I have no clue. And. And I think that's a realization that we all need to be walking around with is, I am capable of doing that.

Yeah, we all are. Well, because we're all. We're all human. Right. And we're all. We're all fallible.

That's right. And it's the person that. It's the person that doesn't realize they're capable of that that says, no, not me. You're the person I'm the most afraid of. Right. Like that. That's terrifying.

Okay, so let's keep listening.

The point here is that I think this is one part of what teaching me how to think is really supposed to mean, to be just a little less arrogant, to have just a little critical awareness about myself and my certainties. Because a huge percentage of the stuff that I tend to be automatically certain of is, it turns out, totally wrong and deluded. I have learned this the hard way. Way, as I predict you graduates will, too.

I think this is the one paragraph that I'm like, I. My name's Alex Judd, and I endorse that message. I. I feel like this is so good, and I wish I would have read that exact paragraph ten years ago.

Yeah, I love it. He says, I've learned this the hard way, as I predict you graduates will, too.

Yeah. I mean, I just wish so bad that we could plaster that paragraph on a billboard in every city in America the next presidential election. Because it's just like, the thing that I have to remember whenever we talk about politics is there is some belief that I hold close to my heart right now that I am outrageously wrong on. Like, there is something that I believe right now that I really think I'm right, that I am so radically incorrect on. And. And I just haven't figured out what it is yet. And what, like, what's so helpful about that is when I recognize that it gives me the ability to interact with other people that I think are wrong. And it's like, okay, well, they have things that they're wrong on, too. So we actually have that in common. And in some ways, I think that's what he's talking about, is the person that thinks they've got it figured out is the person that's going to be dangerous to themselves and others.

Yeah. And I'll. I'll just. Myself. I'll just read something here. We won't play the actual audio, but he. In the next paragraph, he. He's sort of. He's entering into this whole idea of the reason that this is so prevalent is because he doesn't say this, but I feel like he's talking about, like, just the natural proclivity of people to be narcissists, myself included. You included all of us. Because he's talking about how he says. He says the world as you experience it is there in front of you or behind you, to the left or right of you, on your tv, on your monitor, and so on. Other people's thoughts and feelings have to be communicated to you somehow, but your own are so immediate, urgent, real. In other words, we are the center of our own universe. Right? Because we're in it. We're always in it. That's the one constant of our life. We're there. Right? You're there for you, I'm there for me. And you know what I mean? And that's why this is so difficult, because we have this natural tendency, I suppose, towards narcissism. I don't know how else to say it.

Yeah, isn't that wild? And. And the minute you think too much about your tendency to be a narcissist, you're now reinforcing the narcissistic, like, the narcissistic tendency. Because, like, you're spending a lot of time. Stop thinking about yourself. And. Yeah, it's funny. We just did a podcast conversation with my counselor. He's the counselor that I've worked with for the past two years, and he was talking to me about a practice that he engages in just whenever he feels really stressed in specific situations. And I asked him the question. I said, is that re. Centering yourself? Like, is that what you're doing there? Are you re. Centering? And he said, you know, he said, it's so interesting you asked that question. I've just been thinking about this. He said, actually, what I think the proper word is is I'm de. Centering. He said, the stress gets relieved whenever I remove myself from the center in the picture and remind myself this. This whole thing isn't actually about me. And he said, it's the. The proper word of what we should be doing is decentering, not re. Centering. And I. I think it's very related to what. To what you're talking about there. Of, like, too often we perceive life through the lens of ourselves.

Yeah. This next paragraph to me is, knowing what happened with Mr. Mr. Foster is the. Is the. Is the darkest.

This, like many cliches, so lame and unexciting on the surface, actually expresses a great and terrible truth. It is not the least bit coincidental that adults who Commit suicide with firearms, almost always shoot themselves in the head. They shoot the terrible master. And the truth is that most of these suicides are actually dead long before they pull the trigger.

Wow.

It's heartbreaking, really, reading that and listening to that.

So sad.

Yeah, well. And he just, you know, just this whole idea of.

Of.

Of thinking and of perhaps it's. I don't know, maybe it's. And I don't want to try to diagnose Mr. Foster here out of respect for him, God rest his soul, but it's almost. If you can't. If you can't choose, you're going to be lost. You know.

I think lost is the proper word.

Yeah.

And what's crazy is I think we all. It sounds. It seems as though he's a very intense personality. And.

Yeah, we can hear it in his voice, right? You can hear it in his voice.

Yeah. But I mean, what's interesting here is, like, I think he's wrestling in an intense way with the questions most people wrestle with for most of their life. And that's what I think in. Until they land. But then you realize, oh, you never. At least I'm 31, maybe. Maybe when I turn 60, I'll land, but I haven't landed yet. Right. Like, it's like. It's the. And. But Jordan Peterson talks about, like, life can be perceived through the lens of order and chaos. Right? So order is consistency, certainty, solid groundedness. Right. It's the ability to have some things you can depend on. Chaos is not just anarchy, although sometimes it feels that way. It's uncertainty, it's ambiguity. It's. Everything's a question mark. Everything is left or right. There's no up, there's no down. And he says, like, if you become a person of order, total order, well, you. You become like an intolerant dictator, right. You become an ideologue, Right. You become the thing that David Foster Wallace is talking about and preaching so strongly against of, like, you become a prisoner of your own prison. But then if you're total chaos, everything is a question all the time, and you weren't built for that. And so what Jordan Peterson would say is, like, you don't want to be total order. You don't want to be total chaos. You want to be the force that mediates between the two. And it just feels to me as though David Foster Wallace really maybe never found a degree of dependability on anything.

Yeah, it's.

It's like he questioned everything. And when you question everything, everything in life is a question. And And I just, I, you, you can't handle it. Right. You have to get out of your own head eventually and say, I don't have all the answers and I'm not going to have all the answers. And if you don't, in some ways it's like, well, what happened is maybe walking the conclusion out to its final stage. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. So this next section, this is where he's getting into some stuff now to where I was like, oh, yes, preach. Yeah. Because he, I, I've become fully aligned almost with him now. There's a few things that I might slightly deviate later on, but for sure, this next section, let's listen.

And I submit that this is what the real no bullshit value of your liberal arts education is supposed to be about. How to keep from going through your comfortable, prosperous, respectable adult life, dead, unconscious, a slave to your head and to your natural default setting of being uniquely, completely, imperially alone day in and day. That may sound like hyperbole or abstract nonsense, let's get concrete. The plain fact is that you graduating seniors do not yet have any clue what day in, day out really means. There happen to be whole large parts of adult American life that nobody talks about in commencement speeches. One such part involves boredom, routine and petty functions. Frustration. The parents and older folks here will know all too well what I'm talking about. By way of example, let's say it's an average adult day and you get up in the morning, go to your challenging white collar college graduate job, and you work hard for eight or 10 hours and at the end of the day you're tired and somewhat stressed and all you want is to go home and have a good supper and maybe unwind for an hour and then hit the sack early because of course you have to get up the next day and do it all again. But then you remember there's no food at home. You haven't had time to shop this week because of your challenging job. And so now after work, you have to get in your car and drive to the supermarket. It's the end of a workday and the traffic is apt to be very bad, so getting to the store takes way longer than it should. And when you finally get there, the supermarket is very crowded because of course it's the time of day when all the other people with jobs to also try to squeeze in some grocery shopping. And the store is hideously fluorescently lit and infused with soul killing Muzak or corporate pop, and it's pretty much the last place you want to be but you can't just get in and quickly out. You have to wander all over the huge overlit stores, confusing aisles to find the stuff you want. And you have to maneuver your junky cart through all these other tired, hurried people with carts, etc, etc, cutting stuff out because this is a long ceremony and eventually you get all your supper supplies. Except now it turns out there aren't enough checkout lanes open even though it's the end of the day rush. So the checkout line is incredibly long, which is stupid and infuriating. But you can't take your frustration out on the frantic lady working the register who was overworked at a job whose daily tedium and meaninglessness surpasses the imagination of any of us here at a prestigious college. But anyway, you finally get to the checkout line's front and you pay for your food and get told to have a nice day in a voice that is the absolute voice of death. And then you have to take your creepy flimsy plastic bags of groceries in your cart with the one crazy wheel that pulls maddeningly to the left all the way out through the crowded, bumpy, littery parking lot. And then you have to drive all the way home through slow, heavy, SUV intensive rush hour traffic, etc, etc.

Okay, he goes on a little bit more and talks about some other, some pretty intense stuff. But what do you think about all that? You know, that, you know, a young college graduate has no idea about the day to day boredom and monotony of, of adult life.

Oh goodness. A couple thoughts come to mind. Number one, he's just like such an incredible writer, right? I think, I think, I think the best writers on the planet write things that are so like freakishly relatable that people, like people literally have themselves in the store. It's like that is so freakishly relatable. So. And the delivery was just.

He's an amazing order, you know, he's just. Golly.

Yeah, that's right. And then the second, the second immediate thought was, well, why? I agree that that is real life and why on earth have we organized college education that we're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for typically and going into debt for to prepare us for anything outside of what's real life like. That doesn't seem very smart. But then the, the third is probably the actual takeaway for me is that, and I actually wrote this down when I was listening to it. We often confuse our interpretation of reality with reality itself. And, and so the interpretation of reality is, oh, that woman at the checkout counter is lazy, she's rude. And that's just how she is. Right? And I've, I've chosen to accept that as reality itself. And in, and in reality, what's actually true is I perceive her as lazy and rude. I, I do not have near enough evidence to make the claim that the truth is that she is a human being that is lazy and rude. But I, I, and that's where I think it's helpful to distinguish There's a difference between what's true and what's truth. And what's true is my perception of this woman behind the checkout counter is that she's lazy and rude. That is true. But it may not align with the truth of who she actually is. And I think too often we get those two things conf.

Well yeah, he's going to come into that exact thing. Let's keep going here for a second. So this picks up right where we left off.

Everyone here has done this, of course, but it hasn't yet been part of you graduates actual life routine day after week after month after year. But it will be. And many more dreary, annoying, seemingly meaningless routines besides. But that is not, not the point. The point is that petty, frustrating crap like this is exactly where the work of choosing is going to come in. Because the traffic jams and crowded aisles and long checkout lines give me time to think. And if I don't make a conscious decision about how to think and what to pay attention to, I'm going to be pissed and miserable every time I have to shop. Because my natural default setting is the certainty that situations like this are really all about me. About my hungriness and my fatigue and my desire to just get home. And it's going to seem for all the world like everybody else is just in my way. And who are all these people in my way? And look at how repulsive most of them are and how stupid and cow like and dead eyed and non human they seem in the checkout line. Or at how annoying and rude it is that people are talking loudly on cell phones in the middle of the line and look at how deeply personally unfair this is. Or of course if I'm in a more socially conscious liberal arts form of my default setting. I can spend time in the end of the day traffic being disgusted about all the huge stupid lane blocking SUVs and Hummers and V12 pickup trucks burning their wasteful, selfish 40 gallon tanks of gas. And I can dwell on the fact that the patriotic are religious bumper stickers always seem to be on the biggest, most disgustingly selfish vehicles driven by the ugliest. This is an example of how not to think. Biggest, most disgustingly selfish vehicles driven by the ugliest, most inconsiderate and aggressive drivers. And I can think about how our children's children will despise us for wasting all the future's fuel and probably screwing up the climate and how spoiled and stupid and selfish and disgusting we all are and how modern consumer society just sucks and so on and so forth. You get the idea. If I choose to think this way in the store and on the freeway, fine. Lots of us do. Except thinking this way tends to be so easy and automatic that it doesn't have to be a choice. It is my natural default setting. It's the automatic way that I experience the boring, frustrating, crowded parts of adult life when I'm operating on the automatic unconscious belief that I am the center of the world and that my immediate needs and feelings are what should determine the world's priorities.

Did you feel his anger in there? And. Not, not, not. And I don't mean anger. Oh, he's mad at people who drive gasoline. There's just anger in there. Did you feel that?

Yeah.

Or maybe it's not anger. I don't. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's. I don't know. What do you think?

Oh, man. Yeah, I don't know what. He's definitely feeling an emotion. I don't know what emotion it is there, but you can definitely hear it in his delivery. The. But just as we were kind of listening back to that. The. The quote that I thought of that I don't claim to understand, but it's. The quote that came to mind is there's Nietzsche quote, which. Nietzsche was also an atheist, but he. What's interesting about Nietzsche is he was an atheist that was very aware of some of the fundamental challenges associated with his own atheist. So that's kind of interesting. But the Nietzsche quote is like, if you stare at the abyss long enough, the abyss will stare back at you. And I. I don't know. I. I don't. Certainly don't claim to know what that means fully, but I think there's something to the effect of, like, man, if you choose to look at darkness long enough and not have any glimmer of light, which David Foster Wallace is actually advocating that people don't do here, I think.

Yeah.

Which is good. But if you choose to do that, you will be able to find darkness, total darkness. And not only will you be able to find it in the world around you. But then because you can find it in the world around you, you will find it in you. And, and I just don't know that there's any coming back from that in some ways, unless you can look at the darkness while simultaneously holding on to the light.

So funny that you, you mentioned darkness and light because the thing that really popped out to me what was he's talking about going through the grocery store and you know, and he's. And he's. And he mentioned it multiple times, the hideous light in the grocery store, you know, and that music and, you know, this and that. And, and he mentioned light multiple times. And I wonder if that was just like a subconscious tell on his point of the difficulty he had in seeing light. I'm not saying he saw darkness. I'm not proposing to get into his head or judge him or anything like that, but I'm wondering. These are the slots I'm having.

Well, and I mean, I. It is such a well written description that I just don't know that it would be possible to write what he's writing there as complete fiction. Right. You just get a point that we're getting a snapshot into his bad days, right. Where it's like, oh, this is where all I choose to see is this.

Right?

Because I don't know that he would even have visibility into those like the option, like that option if he hadn't once chose that option. Right. To look at the world through that lens. But then there's also something pretty condemning about that because it's like I relate to everything he said, maybe not all at once. Right. I don't know that I've ever had a day where it was as bad as the one he just listed. But it's like I find every individual element. Element of what he's talking about very relatable. And, and it's like, oh man, what do you do with that?

Yeah, well, so now in fairness to Mr. Wallace here, he's going to get into some good stuff here. So let's, let's keep going and see, see how he, his thoughts he's building. And in fact, it was interesting. You know, early on we heard the crowd when he, when he said. And I dwell on the fact that the patriotic or religious bumper stickers always seem to be on the biggest, most disgustingly selfish vehicles driven by the ugliest. And then at that point, the crowds roaring the commencement. You know, what's interesting is, and I've read reflections on this talk from other people, they really believe that he didn't intend for anyone to cheer through any of this. You know, I don't, I really don't believe he. But he was almost like he was setting people up like, oh, yes, yes, go ahead, come to me now. Let me show you. Let me show you the truth, right?

When he even had to remind them this is how not to think, right? Like, it was almost like I have to remind you that like, like I'm not telling you you should be thinking this way, right?

Don't think of people as what is a cow faced or cow head or whatever. I was like, oh my gosh, like, you know, how ugly could you be to think of someone like, like that? So anyhow, let's keep going.

The thing is that of course, there are totally different ways to think about these kinds of situations. In this traffic, all these vehicles stuck and idling in my way. It's not impossible that some of These people in SUVs have been in horrible auto accidents in the past and now find driving so terrifying that the therapist has all but ordered them to get a huge heavy SUV so they can feel safe enough to drive. Or that the Hummer that just cut me off is maybe being driven by a father whose little child is hurt or sick in the seat next to him and he's trying to get this kid to the hospital and he's in a way bigger, more legitimate hurry than I am. It is actually I who am in his way. Or I can choose to force myself to consider the likelihood that everyone else in the supermarket's checkout line is just as bored and frustrated as I am. And that some of these people probably have much harder, more tedious or painful lives than I do. Again, please don't think I'm giving you moral advice or that I'm saying you're supposed to think this way or. Or that anyone expects you to just automatically do it because it's hard. It takes will and effort. And if you are like me, some days you won't be able to do it, or you just flat out won't want to. But most days, if you're aware enough to give yourself a choice, you can choose to look differently at this fat, dead eyed, over made up lady who just screamed at her kid in the checkout line. Maybe she's not usually like this. Maybe she's been up three straight nights holding the hand of her husband who's dying of bone cancer. Or maybe this very lady is the low wage clerk at the motor vehicles department who just yesterday helped your spouse resolve a horrific infuriating red tape problem through some small act of bureaucratic kindness. Of course, none of this is likely, but it's also not impossible. It just depends what you want to consider. If you're automatically sure that you know what reality is and who and what is really important, if you want to operate on your default setting, then you, like me, probably won't consider possibilities that aren't annoying and miserable. But if you've really learned how to think, how to pay attention, then you will know you have other options. It will actually be within your power to experience a crowded hotel, slow consumer hell type situation as not only meaningful, but sacred, on fire with the same force that lit the stars. Love, fellowship, the mystical oneness of all things deep down. Not that that mystical stuff's necessarily true. The only thing that's capital T true is that you get to decide how you're going to try to see it.

And that's what. That sentence right there wrecked me.

That one way or in a bad way? Is there a good way to be wrecked? I'm not sure.

I don't know. It wrecked me. It made me. It just stopped me in my tracks. The only capital T true is that you get to decide how you're going to try to see it. At first I thought, no, that's not. There's capital T, truth, you know, it's called God. But I don't think he's arguing for or against right there. He's not arguing. He's not trying to say who's right or wrong. What he's. I, maybe what he's trying to say. I'm curious what you think, Alex, that you get to decide how you're going to try to see it. Is that truth?

Well, what's really interesting is he says the only thing that's capital T true is that you get to decide how you're going to see it. That, to me sounds like a pretty aggressive statement of truth, like in, in making a presupposition about what is capital T truth. He is, he is making a claim about what is true. And so then using his argument, I could just say, well, that's just how you choose to see it, right? Like, you know, and I don't agree with you, what you're saying is not true because I have a different true. And man, I mean, culturally, this, this is where we're at right now. He just arrived. He just arrived in 2005 instead of 20, 23. Right? Like he, he was on it, right? I, I think, think, and I think it's why this talk is so as important, if not more important today for believers and non believers alike as it was back in 2005. But I mean, the thing that I, I wish so bad we could talk to him, I would have so many questions about that. I literally don't fully know is. I mean, in some ways, what he's proposing here is a little bit like positive psychology in a negative way. And, and like, literally there was. There was a line of thinking within positive psychology for a very long time that they would literally say the right path is to let the lie be your umbrella. And, and what that means is that life is too hard. Life is suffering. Don't engage with suffering. Let the lie of positivity be your umbrella. And, and, and I think that ultimately, like, runs out of steam because eventually you. You yourself know deep down this is a lie. He even alludes to it because he goes on like, okay, well, maybe. Maybe this woman has a husband that's dying of bone cancer. And then he literally says, of course none of this is likely. And he shows his cards. Right. And he's walking around knowing that. And so it. From my perspective, I think something that is more healthy, maybe, and this is. I. I shouldn't present this with certainty because I'm not certain on this. Something that is maybe a perspective that is more healthy is to say, I don't know what these people are going through. What I do know is life in general is hard, and maybe she is mean. And. But if I've got a living hope inside of me that there's something bigger and grander at play, that maybe I wasn't created for this life, I was created for something that was even greater than this life, then I can deal with how hard this life is. Right. Like, and that, like, okay, the. The brokenness I'm experiencing right now is. Is no less broken. It is very broken. I'm going to call it broken. And it's okay to call things bad and evil and broken and not okay. Right. But the good thing is, is that I've got this belief that brokenness will one day be restored.

Yeah.

And, and what's tough is if you don't have that belief that brokenness will be restored, then you're forced to either be nihilistic about the brokenness of reality or to guard yourself with. With what can be lies of, like, okay, I'm gonna make up things to serve as my umbrella from reality.

Yeah.

I feel like most of those things are question marks in my head more than statements, though.

All right, let's keep going with Mr. Wallace here.

This, I submit, is the freedom of real education, of learning how to be well adjusted. You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't. You get to decide what to worship. Because here's something else that's weird but true. In the day to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship and a compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of God or or spiritual type thing to worship, be it JC or Allah, be it Yahweh or the Wiccan Mother Goddess or the Four Noble Truths or some inviolable set of ethical principles. Is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive? If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally plant you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, cliches, epigrams, parables. The skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness. Worship power. You will end up feeling weak and afraid and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect. Being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. Look, the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful. It is that they are unconscious. They are default settings. They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing.

You ever heard of the Mother Goddess or the Four Noble Truths, the wicked Mother God? Yeah. So? But it's interesting, you know. You know, he's trying to make you think about it's very powerful statement that there's no such thing as, as a. Being an atheist. You're going to worship something. I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, I'm not an atheist. But if you are an atheist, I wonder if an atheist would agree with that. You know that statement.

I, I agree with that. I, I think, I mean, I think there's times where I have worshiped things that aren't the God that I say I worship. Right. And I would call that an idol in.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I mean, college football, right. Like, worst is pouring out all reverence and respect and. And organizing your life around something. Right? And. And it's like, oh, yeah, we do that for things all the time. Yeah, yeah. There's two lines of thoughts that I had on this. It's. I really want to know if he ever read Ecclesiastes, because Herman Melville is the author of Moby Dick. He was an atheist, and he called Ecclesiastes the truest of all books. And the whole message of Ecclesiastes is Solomon, right? The wisest and richest man to ever live. He basically says, I chased wisdom, I chased sex, I chased power, I chased money, I chased all these things. Not only did I chase them all, I got to the top of every single mountain. This is the story of Ecclesiastes. And he said the conclusion at the top of every single one of those mountains is vanity, vanity. It's all dust in the wind. None of it means anything. And. And that's what Herman Melville said was the truest of all books, is this is all meaningless. Right? And. And I mean, in some ways, it's like that feels like where David Foster Wallace is kind of going here, as he says, like, you are worshiping something. You're. And the conclusion that you're probably going to come to is it doesn't mean anything, but where he lands is different than where Solomon lands, where David. He got. Oh, gosh, I just. Man, he got what I believe to be is so close. Right? But he said meaning is what you decide meaning is, is basically how the conclusion that he landed on, right? Like, you choose to give things meaning thing. And that's basically saying, like, there is. There is no capital T. Truth is what he's saying there. Because capital T, truth is what you define it to be. And yeah, yeah.

I think that's what I wrestle with in this whole talk is that, you know, there is. There has to be truth. And I'm not even saying we're right. Right. I mean, we could be wrong.

That's right.

We could. We could be wrong. Okay. Or we could be right. But you have to. You have to. You have to have faith in something that you believe is true. Maybe that's the way. Maybe that's what this is all leading to.

Well, what's interesting there is you said we could be wrong. He never says that in this talk. He never once says I could be wrong on this, which is really interesting.

Yeah.

Because. Because he comes across as this guy that's super open minded, lots of humility and all of that. And, and I mean, I think he was, I think he was so smart. Right. Like this guy spent way more time thinking than I, I could probably even dream of. Right. But, but he never says I could be wrong on this. And in some ways he has now fallen, potentially trapped, to his own thing where it's like he's become certain that meaning is what you define it to be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah. It's kind of like when I have a conversation with someone about what I believe, I'll say, you know what? I'm not trying to, like, I used to debate people all the time, like, you know, practice apologetics and like slinging Bible verses at people who didn't believe what I believe. And, and I realized it just, it was a, it was pointless because they were really never going to agree because it's pride at that point, you know, when you're arguing with one another and, and what you believe. So I say, you know what, what, here's what I believe and why I believe it. I'm not saying that you should believe it, you know, I'm not saying you should believe it. I really am not, you know, but I want you to know why I believe and why I have hope in this thing that I believe in, you know, And I just lay it all out, you know, and I could say, and then there's some things where, you know what? I believe this by faith, you know. By faith, yeah. I mean, there's historical evidence of certain things and there's people who saw and people, you know, so you can get historical, if you will, on some of this stuff, but at the end, at the end of the day, you gotta have faith in something, right? And you gotta be open to the idea that I could be wrong. You know, it comes back to Pascal's wager, right? I mean, you gotta place your bet and then see, see where it lands and in the end and you know, I suppose we'll all know, right? We'll all know. So.

And you know, if you think about like, I, I just feel like you're what you just described as a, I mean, honestly, just a much more healthy, enjoyable way to live than in some ways what's prescribed at the end of that section, which is the whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness. Because what he's saying is the truth is, is that you define the truth. Right. So. So you define what has meaning in this world. And so what he's saying is, the whole trick is keeping what you define as truth in your daily consciousness. So that means every single day and every single decision is your decision about what is good and what is bad, what is evil and what is pure, what has meaning and what doesn't. And there's no. There's no ground for anything. Everything is your decision. Right. And like you. And that just sounds. I mean, to talk about getting up in your head all the time, it just sounds miserable. It sounds stressful. Right. And so it's like, okay, like, for me, I. I'm gonna choose to, like you said, operate in faith that there is. There is a grounding that tells me the answers to those questions and that there is objective. Good and bad, right and wrong, beautiful and ugly. Like, all of those things are objectively true. And I'm not going to say that I get to decide the answer to all of those things.

Yeah. Because that makes you the arbiter of truth. Right?

That.

That you are the. You know, that. That. Yeah, I think that's. That's just false, you know, it can't be because that means there is no truth. Because if everybody has their own truth, there is no truth. Because if you and I have different ideas of what truth is, by definition, one of us has to be wrong.

Yeah. I just don't. I mean, honestly, this is where the logic really breaks down for me. Like, I, I would. You know, we say, okay, like, you have to remove yourself from the center of the universe, but you decide what truth is.

Right.

Like you decide everything that has. In the universe.

Yeah, it's. It's a circular. It's a circular nightmare, in a way, perhaps. Right.

Yeah. I mean, you. Yeah, I really think prison is the right word.

It's a prisoner. You know, talk about prisoner. That's a circuit. They mean. Yeah, yeah. So. Oh, gosh.

But what's wild is I think he was consciously prison imprisoned maybe. Whereas most of us have the susceptibility to be unconsciously imprisoned. We.

He.

He was just the person that was articulate enough to put this stuff on paper and in a talk. Right. Which I. I mean, I've lived. The reason why I can talk about all this stuff is I've lived out this logic less gracefully than he has and with less understanding of what was going on, but I've lived it. And. Yeah, it just. Oh, there's. Yeah, there's just a better way, I think. You know, let's Let, let's, let's, let's.

Let'S finish out with them. This is, this is the ending part of, of this commencement speech.

I know that this stuff probably doesn't sound fun and breezy or grandly inspirational the way a commencement speech is supposed to sound. What it is, as far as I can see, is the capital T, truth, with a whole lot of rhetorical niceties stripped away. You are, of course, free to think of it whatever you wish, but please don't just dismiss it as some finger wagging Dr. Laura Sermon. None of this stuff is really about morality or religion or dogma or big fancy questions of life after death. The capital T, truth is about life before death. It is about the real value of a real education, which has almost nothing to do with knowledge and everything to do with simple awareness. Awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us all the time, that we have to keep reminding ourselves over and over, this is water. This is water. It is unimaginably hard to do this, to stay conscious and alive in the adult world day in and day out. Which means yet another grand cliche turns out to be true. Your education really is the job of a lifetime. And it commences now. I wish you way more than luck.

Man. A guy can write. Give him that, man.

Yeah, no kidding.

Yeah. The capital T truth is about life before death. So I don't know. Do you think that's true? The capital T truth is about life before death?

Oh, I. I don't know. I don't. I don't think so. Because I, I mean, you know, I've already, I've already shown my cards. Right. Like, I, I actually believe Jesus was serious when he said, I am the way, the truth and the life. Right. And so the truth is quite literally, like, about life, but also about resurrection life and eternal life. The truth is the truth, regardless of my belief in it and regardless of my interpretation of it.

Yeah.

So let's just operate in the reality that the truth is that God creates.

Yeah. The Pascal's Wager that. That upper quadrant.

Yeah. God created the heaven and the earth. He came down in his own likeness like or in the likeness of human beings as Jesus Jes. Died and rose. Again, if that is the truth, my interpretation of that is. I mean, nice but irrelevant of whether or not that is the truth. Yeah. Right. Whereas that's where, I mean, he, like, he and I would have a. I think the three of us would have a very interesting podcast conversation. Right. Like, I just. The truth really has very little to do with my interpretation is. Is my belief. Right. Like, and. And I think the truth doesn't really care about my interpretation of it. Right. I think. I think God does because I think God has a heart that wants to see me, to come to know the truth, because the truth is what sets me free. But the truth is the truth, regardless.

Yeah. I'm wondering. I'm trying to get inside. I'm trying to play the role of Mr. Foster because unfortunately, he's not here.

Yeah.

I'm trying to think, like, what would he think? How would he respond to what you just said? And I'm wondering if he would be okay with it in that I keep coming back to. Well, I think what he's proposing here is he's wanting people or he's encouraging people, even imploring them to identify their truth. You've identified your truth.

Yeah, but it's not mine.

Yeah. Well, you've chosen to align with that. You could choose to. You could choose to align to a different truth. Right.

But. But at that. My belief system, though, says that's not true. That's where the conversation becomes really hard.

Is.

I'm like, okay, well, because there is a.

It is. You know, it either is or it isn't. Right.

That I think is at the crux of. I mean, that is the core question. Is there truth?

Right.

Is. And. And I really think, like, man, I. Is why. I just. I'm so grateful to you for organizing this conversation because I've thought about this in ways that I've never thought it before, and I've mumbled and stumbled my way through this. So I appreciate you being willing to parlay. And. And you've made me think about a lot of things. But I just think, like, that core question, is there truth? Is at the crux of so much of the division and. And just internal strife and cultural just. I mean, absolutely falling apart at the seams right now is. I think it's all related to that question because uncertainty around that question creates chaos.

Yeah. And. Yeah. It creates hate and anger and division. Yeah.

And so that. I mean, that's another great point. It's like, okay, look at the fruit. And this is what I would challenge everyone to do is you. You can't. You are choosing to live by faith regardless. There is no truth.

Capital C. You're going to worship something.

That's right. And so what I would just encourage people to do is don't take my word for it. Look at the fruit. Right. Look at the fruit of what like what a line of thinking produces. And you just said it right. Like there's a line of thinking that produces chaos, and there's a line of thinking that produces stability and life and the ability to serve other people. And that, that's, I think, like what I would use as the litmus test for where to place my faith in many ways.

Yeah. Golly. Oh, what a talk.

I, I, I, look, I'm a runner and I just feel like I just ran a marathon. Like, I need to take a nap, Ron.

I know, I know.

So what I want to know, if you were to have one, like one primary takeaway from the, the keynote or this conversation, what would, what would your primary be?

I think I would say choose wisely, you know?

Yeah, no kidding.

Choose wisely and not just, and I don't. Again, I know we, we really went after our, our personal faith journeys and whatnot. But even forget about faith for a second, forget about God, forget about all that, which you can't, I mean, it's the most important thing in my, my opinion as well. But, but even just like in a professional work environment, you know, you have choices on a daily basis. You know, we have choices of how we problem solve. We have choices on how we interact with our colleagues or our customers or our competitors, you know, and those choices are going to dictate your success. They just are, you know.

Yeah. And I, I think that's the greatest gift that he gave in delivering this keynote was, I mean, like, he inspired me to be more deliberate, intentional, and wise about the choice that I'm making every single day. Because it's also not like, oh, I chose today and therefore, I'm sorry, set, set it and forget it. It's like, no, you, like you are choosing. It's a active process. And so. Yeah, well said.

What about you?

Oh, goodness. There was something in the piece, in the keynote that really stuck with me and he really did. It was kind of embedded throughout that same, like the whole thing, like, what is truth? Well, the answer to that question is a statement of truth. Right. And so if truth is what you interpret it to be, well, that's a statement of truth that you are interpreting. Right. But if truth exists. I didn't have these words before we were able to talk. If truth exists, regardless of my interpretation, then it is something that demands my submission passion. And, and I think that's where I personally, I can't speak for society. I personally get really hung up is by submitting something that I, submitting to something that I don't have control over every part of my being, likes to rebel against that. Right. And so just recognizing that that's what's going on, that's the tension that we feel regardless of where we land. That's the tension we feel. So, so, yeah. Ron, man, I'm so grateful that, number one, that you wanted to use your platform as a place for just such a, I think, necessary conversation and then that you would invite me to be a part of it. Because I really learned a lot just in getting to talk to you and listen to this keynote. So thank you.

You're welcome. Well, thank you for coming on. I mean, I had no idea how this was going to turn out or where it was going to even go other than work our way through this, this, this hauntingly beautiful, you know, commencement speech. I don't know how else to describe it, you know. Yeah. So thank you for, for coming on, man. I, I, I hope, I hope people will, I know this has been a super long episode. My gosh, this is like three or four normal Academy podcasts put together about, I hope people will. We're going to link to the, the actual talk and, and both the, on the website there for Mr. Wallace, they have a transcript it which I, I first did. I read it first, then I listened to it, then I read it again. I think I've listened to it twice and I've read it at least once or twice. And it's just every time I read it or every time I listen to it, I do hear something different. You know, something else jumps out out of me, makes me think. And I think maybe as we wrap up, maybe that was his whole intention just to make people think, you know?

Yeah, I mean, what, you know, I, I, I hope he would be the type of person that would welcome discussions like the one that we just had. Because I, man, that's what's falling apart today is the ability to even discuss that. And so I agree with you. I think that the discussions that happen around big topics just matter so much.

So, yeah, I'd almost like to redo this with a person who didn't share our faith in belief, get their perspective on it. You know what I mean? Because I have a lot of people in my life. There's people in my life who don't share my, my or our, our convictions towards our spiritual beliefs. And they're not bad people, obviously, you know, and they do great work and, and they're good, they, they do great things for people around them. You Sometimes I wonder they're better. They're better Christians than I am sometimes, and they don't even profess to be one. Right. So. So I don't want to. I don't want to sit up here on a soapbox as if, you know, if you don't believe, like, me and Alex, you're bad or you're a bad person. Obviously, it's not the case, but. But, yeah. Ah, golly, just so much to. So much to digest. I want to go back and I want to listen to it again now, you know, to see, now that we've talked about it, like, what else pops out?

Yeah, I. Man, if. To use the line from the beginning, if mutual exploration was the goal, I feel like we did some exploring. And I think I'd be remiss not to say, like, there. There's no way everything I said in this conversation is right. You know, like, there's something that I said that is probably way off and way wrong. I just don't know what it is yet. And so I just asked the audience for their grace around that because. Yeah, I know. Believe me, you don't even have to tell me. I already know.

Right.

Right.

Yeah. Alex, if folks want to. To connect with you, what's the. What's the best way?

Oh, man. If they want to follow the company where we work with business owners and their teams, that's pathforgrowth.com and we send out an email every Wednesday with content where we try to wrestle with some of the deeper and more profound questions associated with leadership and business and life. And then we also have a podcast as well. But Ron has been on before and was just an exceptional guest. And then LinkedIn is a great place to connect personally, which I'm. Man, after the previous Gimbo Academy podcast released, I had all these people add me on LinkedIn that had lean in their bio and, like, process improvement, like. And I was like, okay, they released the Lean podcast. So credit to you and credit to you and the audience that you're building because it's some of my favorite connections that I have right now.

Awesome. Awesome. 1. It's. It's Alex Judd. J U D D if you're just listening. And we'll. We'll link to everything in the show notes, so just scroll down on the app that you're on there, and the links will all be there for you. So, man, again, Alex, thanks for taking. Golly, an hour and 40 minutes of your time to. To chat with me. I really, really appreciate it.

Thank you, Ron. Appreciate you.

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