GA 472 | Balancing the Two Pillars of Lean with Bonnie Davis

And continuous improvement, you know, is having that long term vision to meet challenges, being strategically focused. But it's also that everybody every day finding opportunities and being empowered to take that opportunity to make things better.

Today I'm excited to welcome Bonnie Davis to the show. Now I've known Bonnie for many years and she's one of the best, brightest, most awesome lean think out there and been after her for a while to get her on the podcast and she's super busy and so I'm so glad that we were finally able to work it out in our schedules. But, and boy, she really delivers on today's episode. This is a good one. We start right out of the gate by kind of just talking about some of the main principles of our lean movement, namely continuous improvement, respect for people. And Bonnie does a deeper dive into what do these things really mean in particular, respect for people, because this is one of those sort of easy to hard to practice. And so she does a really, really good job of explaining how those two pillars can and should cooperate with one another. We then sort of pivot and talk more on the whole idea of using A three and A three, problem solving, A three thinking, lots of ways to describe that. And Bonnie's a huge proponent of the A3 and she's really good at it. And so she actually gives us a really awesome lesson on how an A3 used within an organization literally kind of going through, you know, the very. She likes a nine box approach. And so she sort of steps us through her nine boxes while also really emphasizing it's not about the template per se, it's about the thinking and the template itself. The A3, the piece of paper, whatever you're using, is a way to tell a story. So, and then right at the end I kind of threw her a curveball and started answer asking her some pretty tough questions in particular like, hey, Bonnie's an executive at her company and she'll describe what she does there. But not everybody is as lucky to have a Bonnie Davis running their continuous improvement program. Some of us, you know, and companies don't have that leadership. And so what do we do if we don't have that top buy in leadership? And how can we, how can we thrive in those organizations? And, and she gives a really nice response to that as well. So I think you're going to like this. Lots of links. So whatever app that you're on, just scroll down and you can connect with Bonnie on link and check out their company, Reed Belt. It's a super, super cool company. I'm hoping we can get their CEO on the podcast one day because I think that would be a fantastic story to share as well. Also, go to gemba events.com it's as a. We're starting to offer in person workshops and something that not a lot of people know because, you know, we're sort of known for online training and that is the core of our business. But, but these workshops, we're doing kata workshops and boot camps and different things like that. It's a, it's a big part of what we're trying here in the, in the next 12 to 18 months. So, yeah. Gemba events.com okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Bonnie, welcome to the show. How are you?

I'm great, Ron. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's good to have you on. I know we've been, we've been trying to organize it and all that, but everybody's so busy these days, so I'm finally happy to corral you and get you on the podcast.

So this is going to be always a busy time.

Yeah, for sure. All right, well, I know, Bonnie, you know the drill. We like to get things going out of the gate with our guest sharing a quote. So what do you have?

Okay, so this is a quote I use quite often when I'm teaching, you know, going to the Gemba, it's by Fuji Ocho, and it's very simple. Go see, ask why, show respect. And I use that a lot when I'm teaching problem solving. And I try to keep it front of mind, personally is, you know, data and looking at reports in your computer is good. There's value there, but you really can't know the state of things without actually going to where the action's happening. Asking questions and really listening with the intent to understand and then to never be judgmental, but to show respect for those that are closest to the work. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. I love that. All right, well, Bonnie, before we jump into the topic, which is going to be a really cool topic, I'm excited for this episode. But tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background, how you first got involved in all this continuous improvement stuff and then. And what you're up to these days.

Sure. I grew up on a farm in eastern North Carolina, so I grew up around lots of hard work and I've worked in the manufacturing space all of my career. Started out in textiles. I had a textile degree from NC State, and I actually spent 28 years with Hanes Brands. And that's where I gained my passion and love for Lean. I did a lot of things there.

I didn't know that. I didn't know you worked at Hanes.

Okay, I did. And it's a great company. I was one of those people that was always willing to learn and love to learn. And I think the greatest gift in my career is I got tapped on the shoulder when they were starting their Lean journey, calling it Toyota Production System. You know, continuous improvement, process improvement goes under a lot of different names, but I really fell in love with it there. And then from from Haynes, went to a smaller company, JPS Composite Materials, and then did a good six years at Jeldwin and was very fortunate to help have my hands on building their JELD1 excellence model. And last year, in the middle of the year, I made a career change and I am now with Rebuild Manufacturing and we're very mission driven on re industrializing the U.S. manufacturing base. And Lean really aligns with their business platform. So I'm excited to be there.

Talk a little bit more about Rebuild because I've done some research when I saw you taking the jump there, but it's a really cool company. You guys really doing well.

We do a lot of things. We do a lot of engineering services, industrial design, process design, automation, and we manufacture and we're growing our manufacturing and we do a lot in the advanced materials space. And you know, there's some reshoring going on, so we'll do that. But also we want to be in the innovation space. So we want to have that intellectual property and start things here in the US all with the mission of revitalizing good jobs for many Americans that saw manufacturing jobs go away over the past years. So we're really committed to building that back up.

Fantastic. Fantastic. All right, well, Bonnie, today we're going to sort of dive into high level topic of the idea of the two pillars of Lean, which many folks listening to this probably know are continuous improvement. That's one pillar. And then respect for people is the other pillar. You got. You got to have them both. You can't have just one or your roof's gonna fall over. Right. But what I want to do is also then sort of talk a little bit about how these two pillars, continuous improvement, respect for people, align with a three thinking. So maybe what's just level set? And I want you to talk just a little bit about the two pillars before we get into A three thinking. What is continuous improvement and what is respect for people really mean to you? Because they're simple words, but they're very complicated concepts.

Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty passionate about when I, when I teach lean and talk about lean thinking, the fact that you've got to focus on both. And I often lean as continuous improvement with people and through people, not something you do to people. And continuous improvement, you know, is having that long term vision to meet challenges, being strategically focused. But it's also that everybody, every day finding opportunities and being empowered to take that opportunity to make things better course is focused on, you know, how can we flow value to the customer, eliminating waste, going to the Gemba. So it really encompasses all the things we do to continually, you know, drive, value and improve our work and then doing that, you know, with our people, that's showing, you know, respect for people by teamwork, giving people the opportunities to challenge themselves and to grow and to do more. So there's a lot of, you know, personal development built into that and then just, you know, respecting the individual, asking questions, engaging everyone in the improvement efforts and, you know, taking accountability, being very transparent, building trust. So there's a lot in there. So you've got the whole culture of lean. I think that's really encapsulated in both of those pillars. And, and so many companies early on when they tried to replicate what Toyota was doing with the Toyota production system, they really focused on the continuous improvement pillar and they focused on implementing tools. So you'd go out and you'd see a lot of lean tools implemented and people would wonder, why did that not work? Well, it's because they kind of missed the whole pillar of respect for people, which, you know, engages everyone in that journey. And so I'm pretty passionate about the people side of lean. I think that's what really drew me to it. And so I spend a lot of time making sure that we cultivate both of those.

What are your thoughts, Bonnie, on like just that whole the balance really between these two pillars? Because you're right, I mean, many people, you know, when they're first learning about Lean or six Sigma or any sort of improvement methodology, they're learning about the tools, right? I mean, they're learning about 5s, they're learning with the 7 waist or 8 waste or 13 waist, however many you have. Okay, they're learning about these things and then they're also hearing in the back of their mind about this respect for people. You know, perhaps they're, they're trying, you know, but how do you balance the need to like you? Because you could respect people all day long and not know how to do any Sort of lean tool and you're probably not going to move the organization forward. So how do you. Have you been able to balance those two?

Wow, that's an interesting question. I've not had that one ask of me before. So, you know, there are some fundamentals, I tend not to call them tools, but methodologies that we build into our daily management. How do we run the business and improve the business? And I think those in themselves empower people. And those are things like visual management, making sure everybody can see how we're doing to our KPIs and to our goals so that they can all be a part of the journey. They're tools that really engage and empower. Like how do we allow people to improve their own workspace? That's 5S. That's a tool, but you're using it to. It's a very empowering tool. You know, problem solving. I'm very passionate about a three thinking, but any type of problem solving, whether it be solving a very reactive problem or a very strategic problem, you're using a tool, but it's the engagement of your subject matter experts, the people that are key stakeholders, even. I like to bring in shiny eyes and people with fresh perspectives. So it's really engaging people and it's a learning process. So for me, it's really hard to separate. I do like having my toolbox and whenever we're tackling an initiative or a problem, it's very empowering to be able to pull the right lean tool out of the toolbox and, you know, engage people in that. And there's a learning process there as well. Yeah, we don't separate them.

No. That's such a great answer, Bonnie. I love that. I mean, it's not one or the other. Right. It's both of them together, working in harmony, right side by arm to arm. So, yeah, that's a, that's a fantastic answer.

I really don't know, Ron, how, how to separate them. I think that's kind of the beauty in it. And, and it starts to create a pull. You know, people. A lot of times people will give you the Heisman and, you know, they're, you come, here comes the lean geek. And they're going to ask us to do a lot of things. But then when you explain that it's empowering and it's going to help them remove obstacles in their job and, and help them flow value to the customer and they see that you're very open with that and you're not doing lean things to them, but you're empowering them with lean tools, you create a pull and people want to be engaged.

Yeah. Oh gosh. So good, so good. All right, well, you hinted at a three thinking just a bit ago. Let's dive into that a little bit. And then again continuing on with this whole idea of the two pillars. So when, when you say A3 thinking, what are you talking about?

Yeah, A3 thinking is using the A3 methodology to tackle both strategic opportunities or to guide problem solving. Of course, most people know that a 3 just stands for the size of paper template, roughly 11 by 17. But so much more than the template. Yeah, a lot of us, yeah, a lot of people, when you say a three, they think, oh, it's the form and it's the filling out the form. But it really is a way of engaging people in the problem solving journey. And I like to use the nine box format. I know there's, I learned it with seven boxes. I've seen eight box over the last, I don't know, four or five years. I have come to really like a nine box format where box one, two and three I like to think of as pre work. You're organizing for the opportunity you're going to tackle, usually with your sponsor and maybe a very small team before you engage more people into the problem solving journey. Where box one, is everybody really understanding the reason for action? What is it we want to tackle and why is it important? Box two, you know, the current state, where are we right now? And then box three, where is our target state? You know, where do we want to move the needle? And what is the time frame for that? And then we jump into like the heavy lift and box four is the gap analysis. Basically what is, what are the obstacles that are in our way and getting from where we are right now to where we want to be? And then how do we dig really deep into those obstacles and understand the root causes of them? You know, there's a lot of lean tools you can use in box four. Sometimes we'll use process mapping for strategic opportunities, value stream mapping, SWOT analysis, fishbone5whys. But once you really understand those obstacles or those gaps pretty deeply, then we use creativity and think about what are some ways we can tackle those. Usually looks like a hypothesis, you know, if we do this thing, this is what we expect to get out of it. And I find at that point, you know, your subject matter experts, you know, really have so much to offer. And then I also love to have some people that really aren't, you know, down deep in the process because they look at things with a different perspective. And often we'll put some ideas out there that you maybe would not have thought of. And then the box 6 is rapid experiments, like how can you test those things very quickly and go through those rapid cycles of learning? And then from there we move into post work. Which box 7 is your action item list, which usually looks like documenting change management, socializing the change training, everybody getting your standard work or your work instruction set up. And then box eight, we're tracking our progress. It could be on a glide path to get us to our target metrics. And then the box nine is a box I really like. It's not in all A3 templates that I've seen, but it's insights and reflections. Like, what did we learn going through this process? Not just about the topic we worked on, but what did we learn about the problem solving process? What went well, maybe what were some challenges? What will we do a little bit differently next time? And then also what things can we share? What learnings did we have that maybe will touch another area of the company? And how can we purposely share that or use the Japanese word yokoten that across and very fluid process. Some of the best A3s that I've been a part of or coached or been been a part of the problem solving team have been probably the messiest ones that we've gone back and forth through the boxes because there were so many learnings and, you know, so many paradigms that we broke and maybe some assumptions that we realized once we went out into the Gemba and collected some data and put our hands on it were not the same thing that we thought we can move forward from there.

So I got a question just from a. A practical kind of technical concept of using the A3. So you mentioned, like when you're in the box doing, say, process mapping, ishika diagram, whatever, you know, whatever the correct tool to help you move forward. You know, obviously we're limited in space on an A3. So do you have another way of sort of documenting maybe a value stream map or a. Whatever a detailed process map that you and your team did? Do you do document that somewhere else and sort of refer to it on the A3 or how handle that?

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of lean practitioners have found different ways to do that, but I'll share with you the way that I'm accustomed to doing it. And you know, a lot of that work happens if we're together as a team on flip charts, on whiteboards, and we Take a lot of pictures and we'll pop them into box four of the A3. A lot of times I'll open up another tab and put pictures of that work there, and then we'll pull it over, like having it where you can blow it up and see it. Of course. Yeah. And we do a lot of virtual A3s as well. Sometimes you just can't get everybody together or with remote work, it's a little more challenging. And so we use all the white space, you know, in our A3 template over to the side. And then I like to think of the A3 template itself as a guide to take you through the process, but also 5s for your problem solving journey. So then we tend to pull into the template the relevant information that tells the story and then have that for your reader. And it's really powerful for change management, for people buying in and understanding how you got to where you ended up.

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. You know, one of the challenges also with an A3 can be, like, when you do have sort of a template with, you know, X number of boxes, if you have a little bit more to say in one box than normal or a little bit less to say than normal in one box. So how do you. Do you. Do you adjust that accordingly in your template? Or, you know, if it says it's just, you know, four line four, four rows on the spreadsheet is what you get for background or something. You know what I mean? Like, how do you adjust and keep that. That form, that template dynamic?

Yeah, our template, you know, is built in Excel. And, you know, I tend not to stress so much about the template, but more about understanding the intent of each of the steps of the process and the intent of each box. A lot of times we'll do the A threes on a flip chart. We'll sketch it out by hand, and then we'll just pop it in the template and we'll make the template work for us.

Got it. Oh, I love that. I'm so glad you said that. Because sometimes, you know, you will see people get, like, married to, like, a template, or you even see it on a flip chart. You know, we're brainstorming and then. And the person's. I'm like, flip the page. You can keep going, man. You don't have to write it all in the bottom right corner of the flip chart. You know, like, just keep, keep going. Keep. There's more paper, right? So, yeah, let the tool work for you. Don't let the tool control You. Right, so.

Right. That's why I like to call it a three thinking because it is a thinking process, as a learning process. And I found it to be very powerful in pulling people together, creating alignment. So we're marching forward together.

Yeah, yeah. Now, so you didn't mention this at the beginning and I'm just, I don't want to put you on the spot, but what is your job title now, Bonnie there at Rebuild?

Chief Lien Officer, which is a pretty interesting title, but I will tell you, some of my peers have very, I say affectionately, I don't know if they're picking on me or as affectionate or not. They call me the Chief Lien Evangelist because I'll never stop talking about it.

Yeah, well, the reason that I wanted to mention it is because obviously you're on the executive team of this organization, which is, well, first of all, fantastic, congratulations. But I want to, I want to ask you a question. So obviously your organization Rebuild, they're bought in, right? From a leadership perspective to this whole idea of continuous improvement of lean and, and so forth. Not everybody is so lucky, not every company is so lucky to have Bonnie Davis, you know, driving the organization forward. What do you say to those folks out there who are listening right now whose leadership is not on board completely? Maybe they are a little. Okay. But you know, if it going gets tough, you know, sorry, Continuous improvement executive, we don't need you or continuous improvement team, we don't need you. You know, you know that that's the sad reality of a lot of companies out there. So what advice do you have for those folks who are working in companies like that? They are executive leadership themselves. They're in the trenches trying to get the work done. What can you say to those folks who might not have that senior leadership buy in?

Wow. I think the senior leadership buy in is really critical. I'm going to grab another quote here. George Koenigseggar, Lean transformation is leadership intensive. And the best way for your leaders to really buy in and understand the value of lean transformation is to be fully a part of your improvement teams. Our CEO is on a three teams. We are doing rapid improvement events and he's already one of the first ones to put his name to be a full time participant, leave title at the door, block your calendar, you know, be hands on with the rest of the team. You know, it's a learning process for everyone. So it is good to have, you know, a coach to walk along beside. But you know, you have to embrace it at all levels. And I think Embracing it from the top is, is really critical.

So I don't want to, I'm going to push you now. So again, there's someone listening say yeah, great, that's awesome for you, Bonnie. You guys have a Great company. Your CEO's on a three teams. But they might it. So should they just sort of despair or, and, or quit and go find another job or maybe that is the answer. I don't know. Like, I'm just, I'm genuinely, I don't think there's a right answer here. I'm just curious on your, your, you know, your opinion, really?

Yeah, I think personally, you know, I've worked in all different levels of organizations and been very hands on and I think embrace the scope that you can impact and drive improvements there. Make sure they're known and that you have engagement at that level. And I've had the opportunity to lead up before in my career as well. Coaching up and giving those engagement opportunities. Sometimes they just need to see and know that they can step into it and that takes time. I mean, it really is a long play and it really is a journey and sometimes you're gonna hit brick walls. But don't stop. Yeah, keep going and make an impact every day. You know, I know there was a point in my career where I felt like, wow, there's so much to do, there's so much culture to change, there's so many problems to tackle. And I really just focused on every day up every day, take one step in the right direction. And if every day I can look and say, wow, we made this impact, it adds up over time and it might feel small at first, but over time, if you stay with. Can be very impactful. Yes.

I love the whole idea of leading up. I think all of us have done that probably in some points of our career. You know, I mean, even your, if you have a, you know, young, young child or, or a, let's say a, you know, teen child or a 21 year old daughter or something like that who's, who's learning some life experience and I may be like, dad, come on, really? And then you're like, oh yeah, really. You know, I mean, we've all experienced that in life and so I think that's so important to do, you know, even in your case, you know, you know, you have a CEO who you report to, right? So you could, you could up to the CEO out of respect and you know, not trying to, you know, step out of your lane or anything like that. But I think that's, that's appropriate and I think it's needed really in the world today is that we help one another no matter where we are on the org chart.

Well, and I think, you know, a sign of good leadership is wanting that feedback, asking for feedback, asking for coaching. I know I learned something every day. You know, I learned something from the people around me. I learned, you know, from my young adult kids. I learned from, you know, I was at one of our sites earlier this week and in a rapid improvement event and you know, just listening to, listening with the intent to learn. And I, you know, I will say with Rebuild, one of the reasons I joined was, you know, very mission driven company. I'm very passionate about the mission we're on. But we also have 16 guiding principles. And when I looked at those principles, principles, Lean thinking and, and the two pillars of Lane were kind of intertwined, you know, throughout those. So that I, I knew, you know, stepping into this, that it really is part of the culture and the thinking here. So it is a good place to be.

Yeah, yeah. Now I, I know I saw on LinkedIn that you guys were hiring and all that kind of stuff. Or is that still the case?

Yes, yes. So we are, we're in growth mode. We, you know, we're a growth driven company. I did bring on a small team of transformation coaches and I have a Lean training specialist on my team. But I really want to make sure that we have Lean resources embedded in all of our businesses. So I do have some roles open now.

Well, we're going to link to everything. So folks, as you're listening, scroll down on your app there, whatever you're listening on. And we're going to put a bunch of links in there to, you know, connect with Bonnie and then also learn more about Rebuild. And, and if there's, you know, this episode's not going to come out for almost a month and a half. Bonnie, just so you know, like, we're recording it right now, but, but, you know, I'm sure you, you guys, your growth isn't going to stop in a few months, you know, so.

Awesome. And you know, I think that Lean is very much an enabler. It's not what we do, but it's how we do the things we're really good at. Better. And you know, part of our business, the Rebuild business, is, you know, industrial design. And we've got a lot of innovators and, you know, creative thinkers, a lot of product development out there. And you know, I like to make sure that we embrace, especially with that team, the Fact that I don't want to change what you're really good at. I don't want to change this creative cycle you go through. You know, they're pretty amazing. But how can we use lean thinking to remove all the obstacles that get in your way of doing that every day? And, you know, how can we embrace that?

Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. This has been so good, Bonnie. I'm so glad that you came on and I appreciate you taking the time. If folks do want to connect with you, what is the best way? I know you're on LinkedIn. Is there any other ways?

I think LinkedIn is a great way. I go out there quite often and yeah, feel free to message me in LinkedIn and then we can go from there.

And what's Rebuild's website? Just the URL.

It's www.I think rebuildmanufacturing. So look up rebuild build manufacturing.com.

Okay. Yeah, and we're gonna again, we'll link that in the show notes here. So, yeah, this is episode 472. So you can also just go to gemba podcast.com look for episode 472. Awesome. Well, Bonnie, thanks again for, for coming on. It was fun and maybe we'll do it again down the road.

I enjoyed it. I always love connecting with you, Ron.

All right, take care. Thanks, Bonnie. Thanks for listening. Whether you've been on the continuous improvement journey for many years or perhaps you're just getting started, GEMBA Academy is here to support you. And while we're best known for our more than 1500 lean and 6 Sigma teaching and virtual tour videos, we also have a team of experienced Lean and Six Sigma practitioners available for one on one coaching, as well as a variety of Lean and Six Sigma certification options. To learn more and to schedule a demo, head on over to gembaacademy.com.