GA 474 | Integrating Coaching and Lean with Sarah Tilkens

So I think so often again we come with a narrative of here's the problem and let me tell you the solution and I need you to go put that in place. And so when you have someone showing up with some of that dissonance or like, you know, not wanting to play, I bet you 99% of the time it's because they have a pre existing belief about what the outcome is going to be.

Today I'm excited to welcome Sarah Tilkins back to the show. Now, Sarah has a strong lean and coaching background and so today on the, on the podcast we, we talk about her, her ability to use coaching as she's deploying lean, but also how lean influences her coaching. So it's a really interesting conversation. And the thing I appreciate the most about Sarah is just she's got this wonderful way, you can just tell of tapping into the human that she's dealing with and trying to understand what's going on with that person. Because many times when we're practicing lean, you know, and you might be getting some sort of resistance, you're wondering why is this person res. Well, Sarah has an opinion on that when basically the gist of it is, is that there may be something going on and we really need to try to dig in and try to understand the person and where is this resistance coming from? Because most people aren't bad people and most people have reasons if they're resisting. And so a lot of good conversation on that, which I really appreciate it. Sarah also has a wonderful quote that she shares at the beginning of the, of the podcast and in fact we spent some time talking about it because, man, it's a quote that I had never heard before and boy, we've heard a lot of quotes over the years on this podcast. So I appreciate that. Also we are doing in person workshops here now at Gemba Academy here in our Keller, Texas facility. So we've got various workshops, we've got some that are themed in kata, some on kind of a lean flow simulation, and many others that we're developing. And since it's an evergreen podcast, I don't want to use any dates or anything like that. But I will tell you to go to gemba events.com and you can see what we've got coming up. And we would love to see you here in Keller, Texas. In fact, the last few classes that have been through here, we give them a tour of the video studio, even let them come in and see you record this podcast. And we had one group even make a little video there. So who knows you might be on the next Gemba Academy video if you come in here for a training class. So, again, Gemba events dot com. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Sarah, welcome back to the show. How are you?

I am so good, Ron. Thanks for having me back.

Yeah. So I was actually taking a little peek before we hit record, and I remember you'd been on at least a couple times, and yes, it looked like episode 275 was the first time that you came on. And then again in 4:08. This is 474. So it's been a little while since we. Since we chatted. How's everything been going?

Everything has been going really good. I reflected on the previous episodes we recorded as well, and one of my favorite things is that the first episode that I recorded with you was right at the beginning of my lean journey. And so it's been fun, as I've recorded with you subsequent times, to just reflect on my own adventure and how far I've come. So it's such a privilege to have that experience through your podcast.

Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, you're look back on your Facebook pictures and all that. Now you can look back on your Gemba Academy podcast. Right. Watch your journey. Right. So.

And I did. I listened to the first one again, and I was like, oh, man. I sort of sounded like I knew what I was talking about, even though I don't know if I felt that way.

But, yeah, good stuff. All right, well, hey, Sarah, you know the drill. We like to get things going out of the gate with our guests sharing a quote. So what do you have?

The one that I brought today is one that I've been thinking about a lot lately, and it's an Einstein quote that says, everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it's going to live its whole life believing it's stupid.

Whoa. I've never heard that one. Say it again. Goodness gracious. There's a lot in there. Yeah.

All right, everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it's going to live its entire life believing that it's stupid.

Wow. What's that mean to you? Like, how do you. How. How do we wrap our arms around that one?

I think it's. You know, what we'll talk about is this intersection that my career is having with coaching. And what I love about this is just how true it rings to me of this belief that everyone is Full of infinite possibilities and so unbelievably capable of creating value in their unique way and that we have. You know, I take it to be somewhat of a responsibility to, like, see that and cultivate it and support people and where they're naturally gifted so that again, like, they're not trying to climb a tree when what they should be doing is, like, over here swimming and creating this just, like, different type of value. So in the way that I'm leading and in the way that I'm coaching, it's just remembering, like, how powerful we all are, but if we're in the wrong spot, like, we might never cease to understand our own capability.

I gotta come back to that. But before that, because I have some thoughts on just this quote. It's pretty profound. I truly never heard that before. So thank you for. Sometimes we hear the same quote again and again on the podcast, a lot of Ono quotes and all over the years, but that's the first time I've heard that one, so I want to come back to it. But before then, in case folks have missed the previous two episodes, Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and how you got involved in all this continuous improvement stuff and then what you're up to these days.

Yeah, sure. So I started my career as a scientist, which, you know, looking back, is, I think, where I fell in love with lean through scientific thinking and just experimentation and learning. From being a scientist. I went into project management, actually. So I worked in the construction industry, and then I joined GE Healthcare about four and a half years ago as a lean leader, which is where I put the understanding of the tools together with the way that I was kind of predisposed to thinking about the world and serving people. I was the lean manager of part of our organization after that. So I went from being a single contributor to taking on a team of lean leaders, where my role was more to cultivate the lean talent and develop a deeper level of capability through coaching the site. And then about a year ago, I took over, we call it nge, a business Team leader, or, you know, an operations manager. So I run a large segment of our organization, making a part that goes into CT Systems. I have a staff of about 15 and about 65 indirect employees, and we make parts in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So just leading the team, doing a lot of firefighting, trying to remember all the lean principles along the way and having some fun.

Got it. Okay. I can't escape this quote. It's gonna. I'm gonna think about it all Day, I think. So the question I have for you on the quote was, what was. What were the. The. The. It was a frog or something. Like what. What were the animals trying to do? Something.

So don't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

Yeah. Fish and climbing a tree. So how do you identify? I know in this example, it's clear a fish is a fish, but, like, just the analogy of it, when you're dealing with a person, how are you identifying, you know, the strength of that person? And they're. Well, you're better at climbing than you would be better at swimming. Right. Like, how do you. How do you figure that out?

Yeah, and I love that you asked that, because I don't think I have any idea, but I think, you know, for me, figuring it out was, like, I had to figure it out for myself. Like, I had to start to come to terms with, like, what are the skills that I have and how do I create value and how do I do it uniquely and, like, what do I want the impact that I have on the world to be? So really, it was my responsibility to, you know, figure out what kind of fish I was and then to be able to almost, like, articulate that outward so that people could, you know, buy what I have to offer. So it actually came from me, first and foremost, understanding who I am. And then I was able to say, like, hey, I'm a fish and you've got me on the wrong stuff. Like, you want me over here, because this is where I know how to swim. And so really what I love about this is it's not so much of, like, I have to figure out where people thrive, but, like, I get to cultivate an atmosphere and ask questions, to inspire people to just believe that anything is possible and to kind of navigate that experience for themselves.

Yeah, because I even think about, you know, I've got, like, my. Some of my children are like, college age and in college and. And, you know, some in high school and, you know, that sort of thing. And. And they're all trying to figure out, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? Right. Like, so even this type of thinking really comes in, like, you know, famous for kids to, oh, I'm studying X, Y, Z, and oh, that's not what I want to do. I want to go study, you know, ABC or something over here. Right. And it's like trying to identify these, you know, there's the old strengths finders and all the temperament tests you can do and all that. Like, what is your Take on all those things. Do you think there's value in that? Trying to understand, like, what your. What your strengths might be or where your. What your temperament might afford you? Like, you might be great at, like, mobilizing people, or you might be. You might get your energy just by thinking alone. Right. And so you probably don't want to be leading people because you don't like people. You like to think alone. Right. There's there value in that.

I think it's all part of the puzzle. I think with anything, though, like, you just can't put too much meaning on any one of those tools. Right. It's just an opportunity to see. And I think, like, how you put that back into the context of you as a whole is you still get to decide. So I think Strengths finder. Yeah, I like all of that stuff, but it's just kind of a piece of the puzzle and something that's a data point. I don't. Yeah, it's a data point. And I don't remember when I heard it, but I heard something on a podcast a couple years ago, and it was something along the lines of, what would be possible if instead of asking little girls what they want to be when they grow up, you ask them how much money they want to make? And I know that seems kind of strange, but, you know, I feel like growing up, you think, okay, well, I have to find the subject I like, and I have to find a career that I think I can see myself in. And, you know, I believed my whole life that there was a path. So if I make this much money, then this is the next job I'll get, and this is the next job, and what I offer a lot of my clients, and what I come back to is, what if you started with, what do you want your life to look like? And how much money do you want to make and what's important to you? And if you built out everything from there, you know, how much different the world would be. Like, how much more in alignment people would feel and how much more passionate they would feel when it's less about a career step and it's more about living into their values and their purpose.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, it wasn't what we were supposed to be talking about. Sorry that I. Tangent. You know me, though. I just can't help it sometimes, though. But what I really. I guess really what I wanted to talk to you, I was kind of intending to talk to you about is just really. You're big into coaching, Sarah. I mean, you have been for years, right. It's been a big part of your, of your professional career and I know it's your, one of your passions really. So maybe let's just open up with what kind of impact has coaching had on you as a, as a, as a person, as a, as an employee, as a, you know, person. Yeah, that's really the best thing I could say. What's coaching done for you?

I think the biggest thing it's done for me is shifted me away from needing to be the problem solver. So I have lived my entire life, you know, solving problems for myself or assuming that I can help others solve a problem in a particular way. And I think what coaching has offered me is again this belief that like, you don't need me to be the hero, you don't need me to solve your problem and instead I get to, you know, support and witness and you know, offer curiosity towards you, you know, solving your own problems. And so it's just a full shift in like the accountability that I take on behalf of others. It's impacted, you know, my family life, it's impacted my friendships, my life at work. Because again, instead of showing up for people and listening in on conversations like, okay, so what are they, what are they saying to me and like, how can I offer something that could help them? I just don't necessarily do that as much and instead I just listen and I'm curious and I don't act to solve, I act to just know and again, inspire opportunity, evoke transformation. But it's, it's not about me, it's just about being with other people.

You know, earlier today I saw this guy, Sahil Bloom, I follow on various platforms. He's really good. He's more like a kind of a marketing guy or finance guy, but he's got a lot really good ideas and he did this one deal where he asked all these 90 year old folks like for some advice, some life advice and, and they got like hundreds of, of ideas from all these folks that he talked to and one of them was something to the effect of, and I'm going to get it a little bit wrong. But basically when someone comes to you as say a friend or a colleague or whoever, a family member, doesn't matter with a problem, you know, your advice is really minimally helpful. The best thing that you can do, said this 90 year old person, is to say, hey, I'm with you. You know, I'm with you. I'm just going to walk with you in this instead of trying to fix it. You know, and say, oh, well, what about this? What about that? You just say, hey, I'm with you. I said, how profound is that? How often do we not do that? Me, for sure. Like, I'm Mr. Fix it, right? Like, hey, man, I'm a lean man. Let's fix this. Let's get to the root cause, you know? You know, sometimes people just need to hear, you know what? I'll. I'll walk. I'm here with you, you know, And I was like, golly, I need to do that more.

Yeah. And I think there's even a difference, right? Like, I can say I'm with you, and I can nod my head and I can be in a different place, but to, like, again, release some of our own judgment or desires around the situation, like, that's what allows you to be with. And so I still think there's a difference of saying I'm with you, and like, actually just releasing your agenda and.

Being with you, releasing your agenda. That is very hard, right? It's very hard. I wouldn't say it's harder for us as, as lean people, but maybe it is because we're sort of wired to fix or we're wired to find that root cause, you know, to, to help, and we genuinely want to help, so we think we can help, but when we try to help, always without just being there, maybe it's counterproductive. Right?

So, yeah, it's just not making yourself the center of the universe. Right? Like.

Right.

It's taking yourself out of the position of being the hero and instead being the guide.

I feel like everyone's got a little narcissist. Narcissist inside of them, you know, that just wants to come out and be like, the limelight. Right? But, boy, you gotta, gotta keep that thing under, under control. All right, well, so I, obviously there at ge, really passionate about continuous improvement as a company, and, and lean and, and various other aspects of continuous improvement are, are really prevalent. So I'm curious to get your perspective on coaching and lean. Mean. There's, there's obviously a lot of parallels and crossovers and, and they collaborate with one another. But how do you integrate your coaching with. With your lean?

I think it starts with, you know, how all of our problem solving efforts start, which is just defining the problem. So I think as we define problems, we often speak just in terms of, like, the technical nature or, you know, the KPI that we're trying to improve. But I think that sometimes we miss an opportunity to understand the people component behind something. And I'll maybe offer an example of We've been doing 5s at our site for a really long time. We've had a lot of successes and we've had some failures and we kind of have to keep re reinvigorating this program. And so when you think of the opportunity for coaching to kind of collide again with this lean tool, it can be really subtle, but. Right. Like if I walk into a room and I say, here's all the reasons that this hasn't worked and now what do you want to do? My hypothesis is that the energy in that room is going to shift to more of a negative place. Like let me tell you all the reasons it didn't work and let me tell you why this is going to be hard and we're going to fail again. Versus my inclination when I think with my couch hat on is like I actually ask myself, like, how do I want people to walk out of that room? What do I want them to feel, feel and what do we have to create together in order for them to feel that way? And how do I engage that conversation? So what I'm doing is still solving the problem, but I'm just influencing the people in a little bit of a different way by understanding. Right. Like how your energy flows. So if I come in and say, yep, stuff hasn't worked in the past and we're not going to talk about that, but let's talk about what is possible. Let's talk about all of the systems that are working great for us and how we can use those to have this tremendous impact in this other area that I know all of you guys want without it being harder for you. So I think even in just the way, like maybe that's not coaching, maybe it's just a shift of mind. But what I find is that coaching is all just about shifting your perspective and shifting your mind. So it's just those really subtle little things that again can have such a tremendous impact in the way that we on focus feel about doing our job. And then if we feel differently, the results that we generate are going to be much more profound.

Yeah, I got a couple of like tactical questions for you. Like it relates to coaching. We, we, we do some role playing here and some workshops that we do here when we're kind of teaching coaching and, and we'll have one person play the coach and one person play like the so called learner or the, the person that's being coached and, and sort of the game is that the coach is asking maybe a question or two and Then the learner is sort of not necessarily cooperating in the dance. Right. Like they might not be the coaches perhaps trying to go in a certain way and the learner is just sort of fighting them. Right. Like, what do you do in those situations to where you're having that conversation with someone and let's say you're doing your best to find their energy and all the rest of it, but it's just not. We're just not getting anywhere because of whatever reason. Have you ever had those situations where you're dealing with a tough learner? Insofar as the conversation is going, yeah.

And I think it really depends on the environment. But as you describe that, like, what my inclination to do is just like be with that person and understand what's going on here. So I think so often again we come with a narrative of here's the problem and let me tell you the solution and I need you to go put that in place. And so when you have someone showing up with some of that dissonance or like, you know, not wanting to play, I bet you 99% of the time it's because they have a pre existing belief about what the outcome is going to be. So whether someone's tried it a hundred times before and it not, it didn't work. Right. The story they're telling themselves is this is a waste of time. So I think, like, just again, it comes back to relationships and if you can just understand where that person is coming from, like from a place of curiosity and not judgment, but just truly seeking to understand their perspective. I feel like the solution comes from there is if you believe that it's always going to be the same. Okay, like, I can empathize with that belief, but, you know, how could we make it different? Or if we were to fire ourselves and walk back into the room, like, what would the next people do that would be different and how could we shift our energy and make it different? So I think just letting people be witnessed and like hearing them and then going from there. And sometimes you have to take that conversation out of the big boardroom and you have to go work with an individual person on the side to kind of unlock some of that, but just like acknowledging it when it shows up and giving people the, you know, space to say what they need to say and then doing what you have to do, circling back and having the hard conversations to move forward.

Yeah, yeah. Awesome, awesome. So maybe a little bit more about. Tell me more about what's going on there. As much as you can share you know, with your, with your lean journey, you mentioned 5s. Like what, what are some of the other activities that are going on? And I'm curious to hear if any of those, any of the tools or maybe the methods that you guys are using, if they're sort of informing the way you coach. And then is coaching, you know, I don't know, informing the way you do lean, that sort of thing. How do those two things work together?

Yeah, for sure I can say how lean is informing the way that I coach. And one of the most fun places that I've been playing is taking all of the tools that I've been taught in lean. And maybe I shouldn't say all of them, but taking some of the tools and actually using them in coaching. So for example, potion, right, An X matrix. So we have, you know, we use how we use an X matrix for large scale strategy deployment. And with some of my clients, I have been using like the X matrix and that methodology to figure out, you know, what is the vision, what are your three to five year goals, what are your one year goals, how are we getting there, how do we measure success? And so it's essentially giving people a framework to step into their personal strategy in just a different way than people have access to. Similarly, problem solving, I use like the fundamentals of define, measure, analyze, improve, you know, control with clients too. And just even saying like, hey, this is how we do it in organization. We're walking through these steps. And so before talking about how you have to change the way that you're being or shift something, let's just understand what problem we're solving. So even just falling back to so what problem are we solving? Oh, you think that so and so is mad at you? What proof do you have? How would you measure that? Like, how do you know that to be true? And so something so simple, again, when you take it out of the context of how we do process improvement on the shop floor, it just is a totally different feel, but it's the same methodology. And then I think for how coaching informs what I do here at ge, I think it's kind of what I talked about is just being a different presence in the room really, you know, not only for myself, but for my peers and superiors, like being able to ask the challenging questions that again, what problem are we solving and are we implementing a solution before we really understand what we're up against? Yeah, I think that's kind of how it's just colliding on both fronts.

What advice do you have for folks who. Maybe there's. There's obviously a lot of. A lot of folks practicing lean, listening to this podcast, and a lot of people who. Who do coaching. But let's just say that perhaps this person is more. More on the traditional lean side and they don't coach as much, but maybe they're interested in. In being a better coach because we all coach in some ways. Right. You know, no matter what we're doing. But what advice do you have for folks who want to learn more about being a better coach and learning some. Maybe some skills or some techniques? How did you go about it?

I was super lucky that a couple years ago they brought in a organization to work with some of us to do executive leadership coaching. So I had it fall into my lap that I had access to this life coach, and through working with her, I fell in love with what became possible. And that is what has moved me into becoming it myself and doing coaching in a different way. So to answer your question, I mean, honestly, I think step one is find it and experience it. So if you have a curiosity to think there could be a different way of, again, being with people or of supporting problem solving or of, you know, whatever that looks like, go find a coach and allow them to just put you in a different space. And it's a hypothesis. Just test it again. I believe that if I go work with the coach, it might shift my mindset. I might get curious about applying that with my staff differently. So it's just raise your awareness of what's possible and then decide for yourself what you want to do with it. Book a power hour with me. I don't know. I'm doing that now. So if you want to come get coached, just come hang out and I'll tell you all about it.

Yeah, for sure. Well, we'll link it up in the show notes, if people can reach out to you. Yeah, I. And the. I'll give a small plug for the kata community out there. You know, they'll say, have a coach, be a coach. Right. And learn more about what they call the coaching kata and the improvement kata and how those two things sort of walk and play with each other because they. They're. They're together. Right. That coaching, car, improvement, kata. But yeah, there's so much out there today to where people can learn more if. If they're interested. Right. And I don't think it's for everybody, but I think everybody can benefit, no matter your role, with having some basic coaching, because like you said, even in your personal life, with your family Members. Right. Having the ability to sort of help people, you know, and understand people. It's going to benefit the world. Right. If we were all able to do a little coaching.

Absolutely.

Good stuff. So. So what's next for. For Sarah, you know? Well, I mean, I'm sure we'll talk again in another 20, 30, 40 epis episodes or whatever. What are we going to hear, you know, thinking ahead, year or so from now. What's, what's. What's on your.

The agenda, you know, something that I am just playing with ideas of, and I have no path to do this yet, but what I know about myself is once the idea kind of comes, everything unfolds from there. But, you know, we have these big goals with our strategy, and we have all of these business metrics that we have to deliver on, and we have all of these people that are waiting just to create maximum value in the organization. So what I'm curious about is how to align those two things. How do you take a Hoshin X matrix and have these four big pillars that you need moved? And how do you look at retention and people development and capability, and how do you mash those things together? Because in my experience, it's, here's the priorities, and you're in the seat in this part of the organization, therefore, you're the person to deliver on this priority. And I think that's a very traditional way of doing it. And I'm curious what happens if you think about, again, a fish can't climb a tree is what if you look at a problem and you ask yourself, who's the best person that I have to solve that problem? And if you just, again, maybe you change nothing except the way that you're thinking about it. In my head right now, what that's unlocking is I think there's a tremendous amount of possibility, again, to support people in a time where life is really hard and to solve problems in a time where, you know, running an organization is really hard. So I'm just so curious, like, what can continue to unfold?

Well, I think we got the topic of our next podcast, you know.

Yeah. See how far I can get. Give me, like, six months.

Okay, let's do it. I can't wait. So. Well, if I. If I know anything about you, Sarah, is, like you said, once you kind of set your mind at it, I think it's. It's already in motion, the fact that you're thinking through it. So it's going to be fun to see. See where that goes. But I think you I hear another thing that I think you should consider. Maybe not right away, depending on what you got going on, but I think you have a book inside of you.

Hmm. I just read who, not how. Have you read that book? No, no. It talks about, you know, we can spend all of our time trying to figure out the answer, the how, or we can find someone who can do that for us. And one of the things. So the book is, you know, this is terrible. I don't even remember who wrote it because I'm so bad at this. But it's one man's ideas and he found someone to write the book for him because he had no interest in writing. So he brought someone else in to claim all of the fame and all the glory because that person, their zone of genius was writing books. And his zone of genius was being the big idea guy. So I don't know if there's a book in my future, but if there is, I for sure will not be writing it because that is not my zone of genius. I would love coming up with all the ideas.

Well, that's a thing. You know, even I know, I've known some people in the lean world. It's ghostwriters is what they're called. Right. And they just write, but they don't necessarily have the ideas. Right. They'll pull them out of you. And so there's no shame in that. You know, it's still your name on the book. But a lot of people get help, I think, writing books these days.

Yeah, I'm down for that.

All right, well, hey, Sarah, if folks want to connect with you, what's the best way?

I think the best way is LinkedIn. Send me a message. I am always so happy to connect and just I get so much value out of having conversations with peers because I think that everyone has something to offer and something to learn. So please don't be shy. And if you're interested in coaching, I just started something I'm calling a power hour. So really it's not like super long contract based, but if you just want to see what's possible in a coaching container, you are welcome to explore that option with me. And I.

Do you have a website for that or is it just all through your LinkedIn?

It's just I. I can show you a way to book through my LinkedIn so website.

Okay.

You know, in the works someday.

Got it, got it, got it. Okay, well. And it's. It's. It's Sarah Token. So T I L K E N S Right. And. Yeah, and so we're going to link everything up in the show notes. So just scroll down on your app there, folks, and you'll see Sarah's LinkedIn there and, and let's go connect with Sarah and, and book some power hours. That'd be awesome. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you, Sarah. It's great having you on and keep up the great work and let's do it again down the road.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I always really appreciate these conversations.

All right, take care. Thanks for listening. Whether you've been on the continuous improvement journey for many years or perhaps you're just getting started, Gemba Academy is here to support you. And while we're best known for for our more than 1500 lean and 6 Sigma teaching and virtual tour videos, we also have a team of experienced Lean and Six Sigma practitioners available for one on one coaching as well as a variety of Lean and Six Sigma certification options. To learn more and to schedule a demo, head on over to gembaacademy.com.