GA 524 | Connection Before Correction with Royden Johnson

So in South Africa, with our level of distrust around leadership, you have to sell it in the right way because people first believe in the leader before they believe in the vision. So that's why you have to have a different approach in implementing Lean.

Today I am very excited to welcome Royden Johnson to the show. Now, Roiden is joining us from South Africa, which is pretty incredible of the Internet. We can just speak to anybody. And so I've. Royden and I have had some dialogue over LinkedIn over the last few months, and he's a really fascinating guy with a really strong background in manufacturing and continuous improvement, Lean, Six Sigma, Black Belt, all this kind of stuff. But, boy, he's got a really a powerful story to share today, really just talking about the state of continuous improvement in South Africa and what it takes to, to get Lean to work. And we even talk, talk about, you know, 5s, which you're probably like, oh, that sounds exciting, 5s. But no, it's really about, like, why 5s. A concept like 5s is so particularly powerful for them because as he'll explain, there may be some people who, you know, have, you know, very different socioeconomic situations. And so using something like 5s as a uniter can be very powerful. He talks a lot about the importance of connection as it relates to the leadership needing to connect with the, with the employees. And so I think there's so much that we can learn, even if we're not in South Africa, just anywhere in America or in the west, about how important it is for leaders to connect with their team members. So very, very, very good stuff. I think you're going to really enjoy this one. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com look for episode 524. And also please scroll down on the app, whatever you're listening on, and hit up, Write in on LinkedIn. Please connect with him, send him a note of encourage, thank him for coming onto the show, give him some encouragement to keep going there in South Africa and to keep making, making things better, because he's really making a huge difference. He gave me a lot of and Gamba Academy a lot of credit, which we're very honored and humbled. But I want to reciprocate that right back because, you know, like I told him on the podcast, we can make all the videos in the world and podcasts in the world, and. But if someone doesn't listen to it on the other end or watch it on the other end and then do something with it, it doesn't really matter. And so, you know, as grateful as I am and humbled as I am that we've been able to help, I want to again, really lift Royden up and congratulate him on all that he and his colleagues have been able to accomplish. So anyhow, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Royden, welcome to the show. How are you?

I'm okay on my side. And your side, Ron?

I'm doing well. Doing well. All right. So where. Where are you calling in from today?

I'm calling all the way from South Africa.

South Africa. Wow. Okay. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. So, well, thank you. I know we've been conversing a little over LinkedIn, so it's good to finally hear your voice and get to. To connect with you on the podcast. So. So, Royden, you know, we like to begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote. So do you have one?

I definitely do, and it's one that I personally live by. As a manufacturing leader, we teach what we know, but we reproduce who we are. So that's why as a leader, you always need to model the behavior that you want to see, and especially in the lean world, with regards to standard, it's no use just telling the person what the standard is, but it's actually living out the standard yourself.

I love that. I love that. Very good. Okay, well, Royden, why don't you tell us a little bit about. About yourself, tell us about your background, how you got involved in continuous improvement, and then tell us what you. What you do these days.

So, Ron, I started as I started out as a normal shop floor operator. Even before that I was playing a bit of amateur rugby I thought I was gonna make. Obviously you guys are familiar with the bird of rugby now in the States as it's growing inside as well. So got an injury and had to change the course of my life. So started working at Goodyear. I know you're familiar with Goodyear as well in the States. So started working in Goodyear as a normal shop floor operator and manufacturing. I just had a strong passion for manufacturing and I grew through the ranks within the company. Started out operator, then moved on to what we call an area manager level. Then I went into process specialist and ultimately became business head. And all through my career, I always had a passion and I was fortunate enough to have some of the experts that was within the company that saw a bit of potential and I was sent on certain courses and it just grew from there. And I can vividly remember me calling my team so if you're familiar with. We work certain shifts, the graveyard shift, the night shift. So on the night shift, I would go onto YouTube, get all the operators in the room, guess what? Open up a video of Ron Pereira with one piece flow.

Nice.

And a lot of our operators being new to Lean and especially being cautious whenever they see something, and then they would say, no, Mr. Manager, we don't believe this white man. And then they would watch the video because, no, he's playing tricks on us. I said, no man, let's just watch the video. And a lot of us, like I say, a lot of your podcast helped us a lot to grow because with regards to formal education, we were a bit behind because we were not. We were coming from the shop floor straight out of school, started working because of economic circumstances. So we lived off content, like your content books, like Mr. Life, Mr. Jeffrey, like Pascal Dennis, all the guys that's out there. So it was just food for our soul with regards to continuous improvement. And that's why a lot of us in South Africa specifically owes you a lot. Because like I say, if it weren't for the Gemba Academy, I don't know how you would have evolved. Because some of the content that's out there, obviously you have to buy books. And from coming from a South African background, financially it's not always that easy. That's so in a nutshell, that's my evolution. And like I say, I'm still growing, being impactful and just growing as a manufacturing leader.

Yeah, it's funny, that one piece flow video, there's various versions of it, you know, but before Gemba Academy even existed, I actually made a one piece flow video and just sitting at my kitchen table and my wife had this old digital camera and I made this horrible looking video and somehow I got it uploaded. Back then when I first uploaded it, YouTube wasn't even around yet. It was Google Video. You remember that? I got this video on Google Video and, and I put it on my. I had a personal blog back then called LSS Academy, Lean Six Sigma Academy. And I put the video on that website, on that little blog. And I think the next day I woke up and had like 300 comments. And like you said, people were accusing me of playing camera tricks. And I said, yeah, wow, there's, there's something to this video. And so this had this, maybe the beginnings of the idea of starting Gemba Academy. You. But yeah, what, what a, what a great. We got to give it to Mr. Womack. That's where I learned it Right. And in some of his original books, you know, talking about how, how they would stuff, you know, envelopes and I thought, huh, that'd be interesting. I'd never did the experiment myself. So I just got 10 envelopes and stuffed them like a batch process and then I did it. One piece flow and yeah, one piece flow always wins, you know, and the.

Difficult part and you know, within the lean movement, within the continuous improvement, it's all about growing people capability as well. And it's a bit difficult in Africa because a lot of our shop floor operators ago didn't have any formal education. So some of them we have got grades, so some of them didn't even go to school because when you enter the workforce and me being from an industrial town called Utah where we have got the likes of VW and Gujia and Fovea, big companies, so a lot of old people with average age of about 50, 50 to 60 years old is working in companies. So to roll out any, any lean improvement, like you have to grow people capability and you need to have that patience. And what was nice is like you already with regards to the content, the content was already all out there because like you would put it together. So it's just me opening up the video and then learning and learning and learning. And like I say like we owe you a lot. I can, I can remember some of my friends, actually I'm not working where I used to stay, so I would still be on call with some of my friends and with the likes of our quality manager currently at Goodyear South Africa, Nabil Hussein. We would like say if it weren't for the likes of Ron, like I would have careers progressed because of the content that was out there. And especially like the content was readily available. You can just get out our operators in one room and we watched a video and then we would engage and then they would go onto the shop floor and it was exciting for them to learn as well. Because continuous improvement is not only about lean, it's about life as well. It's ever evolving. It's a philosophy. And I know within the lean world nowadays there's a lot of contest between who's right and who's wrong. And there's a famous quote that I remind myself of. The moment you think you, you becoming authentic, chances are you're quoting some dead philosopher. So, so the moment in lean that you think that you're the only one that no, chances are that that thing that you are doing was done before and years ago, like we didn't have access to social media like we have nowadays. So you might think that what you have is authentic, but it's just like that the platform is more open now.

Yeah, yeah. Hey, so, right, and tell me a little bit more about maybe the state of, of lean and continuous improvement in, in South Africa. I mean you've talked a little bit about it, but where would you say you are as a, as a country as far as penetration as it relates to the idea of continuous improvement?

Like I say, with, with the platforms that's available now, I think we've grown a lot like in the past, like you didn't really. And some of the books that's out there, like for argument's sake, if you want to order the Toyota Way, which is not locally available, you're going to have to spend some money. But with the platforms I think that we've grown a lot. And especially if I use myself, being in a middle management position, I was afforded the opportunity to travel the world. I've been to the States, I've been to other countries. So that cross pollination helped us. So eventually when we come back we can then impart. That's why I say as a leader, you teach what you know, but then you reproduce who you are. It's all about living out the lean values, living out. Especially if we enter into, into spaces like your, your 5s. So that's very important for us because knowing South African history with regards to apartheid, our people didn't grow up in facilities that was good. So for argument's sake, we would use one toilet, one, one, one tip where you can get one water. So the person that's using the facility, they grow up with the attitude that someone is coming after me to clean. So they come with that culture into the workforce. And that's why like I say things like 5s and, and all the other lean methodologies, it was not only not only a philosophy but we had to drive it to become a lifestyle because that, that uncle that's working within the manufacturing facility has to go home now and apply the very same principles that he was t in the manufacturing facility, apply that at home, go back, apply the very same philosophy that he was taught at work, like continuous improvement. And I like to call it consistent improvement. You need to consist. It's every day, it's every day, it's incremental steps. So that's why for us we had to live it out for, for, for the people to grab onto it and, and knowing our history. Because any, any methodology you have to tailor, make for the culture per se. So, so in South Africa, with our level of distrust around leadership, you, this, you have to sell it in the right way because people first believe in the leader before they believe in the vision. So that's why you have to have a different approach in implementing lean and especially with, especially in the African context. Like I say, you will hear me put out a lot of slogans and slogans and catchphrases out there. So in Africa, you have to connect before you correct because we are people that's very proudful in what we are doing. So the moment you come in and you want to correct around anything, immediately our people will then switch off. So as a leader now, you have to build up a level of connection if you want to sell any philosophy, sell any ideology. But I think we have grown a lot with, within the last couple of say, 10 years. And that's why I was asking you earlier, I'm not quite sure if I'm the first guy from, from Africa that you've had on the podcast. If so, I know I'm definitely not going to be the last because like I say, it's time that we, that we give you the reward that you deserve because there's a lot of us that you don't know. So, so you might think that you're only being impactful in the States, but you don't know there's a ride in, that you're touching in South Africa. There's a, there's senior leadership that you know that you're touching in Africa. So now, so now is the time to use this platform so that you can even see your impact. And maybe your wife would then look and see that starting off with that camera years ago, like, at least you have added value beyond your borders.

Yeah, no, we've been very blessed, you know, to, to be able, I mean, that's the power of video and the Internet and you know, we just, I don't know, a lot of times I believe, you know, we got lucky really starting at the right time and, and then, you know, but to your point, we were consistent and we kept trying to add value. And yeah, we've been, we've been really fortunate to be able to impact a lot of people around the world. And we don't take that for granted, I could tell you that. So this podcast also is a really nice way for, for us to talk about Lean and talk to people like you and, and so anyway, but thank you, you know, for all your efforts because hey, we can make the video, but if there's not somebody on the other end of the video watching and then taking action. It doesn't really matter. Right.

So, yes, no, like I said, I totally agree. And like, for the last, say, 15 years, like, lean has been my life. Started out, I got my black belt certification. You know, eventually we evolved to Lean Six Sigma, like I say. And I was reading, I was listening to a podcast of you the other day. Like, I don't get into the theatrics because Lean is my life. So I'm not interested in who's right and who's wrong and what's the right way. It's all about continuously improving with, with what's. What we are doing.

Hey, Royden, I wanted to talk maybe a little bit more. I'm curious to hear. You've touched on it a little bit, but curious to hear more about your journey with 5s. And in particular you talked about how it's important for the employee to sort of connect with their leadership, maybe trust their leadership. You didn't say that, but I'm wondering if that plays a role in it. But talk a little bit about your journey with five there at the various facilities that you've worked at.

Yeah, so as I, as I've said to you with regards to the methodology, it's all about the connection. So I usually start out similar to what you guys in the States that we know. 5s started as a Japanese concept with the 5s's. You've also turned it into 5s. So in South Africa, we've got 11 official language. So there's one language called Sotho. So in Suto there's always also five S's. So I would like, Taylor, make it for our culture per se and then take the team on a step by step process. And also looking at our history as to how I can connect 5s to say that this methodology has been in us. However, with the current 5s, we're just bringing it out. So then you take them through the stages and through the phases and like I say, it's all about growing the capability, getting them to understand why you in the sorting phase, why you need to do what you do. So obviously in the thought, in the sorting phase, you would, you would then discard what's not needed, but you would also like create a story in that. So we have a saying in Causa, like I said, we have 11 official language. So we have a saying in Xhosa that says, which means a human being is a human being through another human being. So in the sorting Phase, I would say it's not that we're going to discard what we currently have, we might give it to someone else, but the sorting phase is important for us because now you're not using this, but it is here. Somebody else might use it. So I always try and create a story as I'm taking them through the stages of the 5s, and in each stage I would try and relate. So when we get to the sustained phase, I would say something like this, guys, everyone in Africa or in the world, when they look at Africans, we look like people that can't sustain anything, that can't maintain anything. Whatever we are given, we mess up. So now let's show ourselves that we can sustain what we have implemented. So I always try and put a story behind it because like I say, as I know my people, that you need to connect and you need to make it about them so that they can go home and feel proud of what they've done. And I always make sure that in the beginning that I connect first. I make sure that I connect on each and every level. And I think this is one of the reasons that there's certain positions in life that I've. I haven't taken more senior roles because I don't know if you're familiar with the Maya Briggs Personality Assessment. Yeah, so I'm an enfj, so I'm relationally moved. So I always make sure that, I mean, I'm in a position that I can still be in contact because I know as you grow as a leader and the higher up that you go, in most cases you might lose their kind of interconnection. So this is how I take people through the stages of 5s and getting them, like to connect. And then I would like use real, real life examples. So now when you go home and I would like make jokes because like I say, I'm an enfj, so I say, when I open your fridge, I don't want, I don't want the peanut butter to be in front of the jelly if you're continuously using the jellyfish, stuff like that. So I would try and make and get real life examples because like I say, from a cultural IQ perspective, our educational system is not as strong. So you might have. Within South Africa, we have what we call our normal government schools and our model C schools. And the competence level is worlds apart. So you might get an operator that comes from a middle class family that's fortunate. So for him you can give a breadcrumb and you'll find where the bread is other one you need to walk through. And one of the biggest mistakes. And that's why I always remind a lot of the leaders out there. This is one of the reasons that I think that our late President, Mr. Nelson Mandela was regarded as such a prolific leader in the world. Because the cultural divide that we have, like I say, we've got 11 official languages, we've got different tribes. So you might have two Xhosa speaking operators where one is coming from a model C school and staying in an upper echelon neighborhood. So to him five years would make sense because when he goes home, the facilities is different, the environment where he stays is different, the other operators living in a shack where there's 10 dumping sites around him. So it's all about knowing when to connect, how to connect and understanding your operators, understanding your influences, understanding your leaders, if you want to change an environment. And I can proudly say throughout my career I'm entering into a phase whereby I'm becoming very self aware as a leader. So I constantly reflect, I constantly reflect and with all due respect, in a lot of environments that I've gone into, that the results is tangible. I always say regardless of where you go in the world, there's three principles around being a manufacturing leader. Number one, you need to respect people. Number two, you have to improve processes but at the same time grow people capability. And number three, you have to deliver on results. And unfortunately sometimes we get the order wrong, sometimes we focus too much, sometimes we focus too much on the one. But there has to be a balance. And coming from South Africa and coming from Africa where we rely a lot on moral authority as a leadership style which is effective if you're in church or in the synagogue, on the mosque. But if you're in business you need to have the balance. So you need to have the balance of formal authority as well as moral authority because you can be the most respectful leader, you can be a leader that grows people and improves processes. But if you don't deliver on your KPI, sooner or later the business will close.

That's interesting. I'm going to explore that a little bit more. That was an interesting perspective. The difference or the contrast even between moral authority and formal authority. Give me some examples there.

So, so, so like I say, from South Africa we tend to lean towards the moral side because a lot of our leaders were not elected. So you would have the likes of Nelson Mandela and Oliver Tambo and we can even go into India like the Mahatma Gandhis. So, so we tend to lean towards that, but then we don't deliver. So when you're implementing a standard, you need to understand the balance. So there needs to be a bit of formal authority where I'm going to put perspective. If we have agreed on the standard, then the standard is not optional. And this is why I say you need. Let me use a live example. I was entering our facility about a couple of weeks back, and as I. As I came in, there was a piece of paper that was lying on the ground. Unbeknownst to me, the operator was behind me, and he was busy cleaning. So I walked past, I picked up the operator, and I continued walking, opened the bin, threw the paper in, and then he came afterwards and he said to me, but, sir, but I was busy cleaning. I see you picked up the paper. And then I said to him that. Then I said, because I model the behavior I want to see in you. In South Africa, it's always easier to keep people accountable to a standard that you adhere to. So five years. To me, it's not just a philosophy that's out there, it's a philosophy that I live by. So. So. And especially, like I say, especially in South Africa, it becomes easier if you model the standard. And you need to have that balance, because I see a lot of leaders, especially nowadays, they want to be democratic leaders. So this is why we make certain standards. We make it optional. But. But you need. You need to. You need to be robust. And that's why I say a lot of the lean methodologies can work, but it's heavily dependent on leadership. Leadership is paramount. I was talking to one friend of mine, and we were talking about cultures and kind of like having different opinions to one another, but it all boiled down to the same thing. He says that, like, you can go to Mexico and you can walk through the streets, and the streets would be dirty, dirty, dirty, and then you walk into a Mexican plant and you can eat off the floor. So it's all about leadership and what leaders are willing to tolerate. Like I say, the standard is the standard. And if you want to object to the standard, object to the standard, change the standard, but then that becomes the standard. And like I say, 5s was difficult in the beginning, especially in an African context, as I have alluded to. And I don't know how it is other way in the world. And that's why I listen to your podcast, to continuously put me as myself, in a position that we can. We can listen to what other leaders are saying out there. So if you study our history, you would see what we had what we call a dompus in Afrikaans. It's kind of like a passport that was completely compulsory for you to carry. So whenever they get you, if you don't present that, you'll go to prison. So, so we had to, literally, because that's, that was the standard of the day. So we had to push against the standard and not adhere to the standard to get what we want. So sometimes it's very easy in an African context, when you want to implement something like five years or any standard that you want to implement, our people easily veer off because of our history. And this is why it becomes easier to correct once you have a connection. Because now we've decided that this is the standard and this was an agreed upon standard and we will keep one another accountable to the standard. And that's why sometimes it becomes easier. And if I might throw another thing out there, if you want to implement any methodology, you got to be very cautious. Because accountability, you drive from top to bottom, but ownership, you drive from bottom to the top. So, so you will hear a lot of what if you open LinkedIn or you open any book and you open any magazine. Everyone talks about accountability, accountability, accountability. But it's easy to keep one another accountable. But if you can get to the ownership part, I like to use this example as well. So I stay in Cape Town and my family stays about 800 km away from me in the Eastern Cape where I worked at Goodyear. So I would fly down, I would rent a car and spend the weekend at home. So now I'm gonna be invoiced, I'm gonna be accountable to pay the invoice. But how I drive the car is gonna be dependent on who owns the car. So I know with, with, with renting the car, there's some insurance and everything, so if anything happens, someone will pay. But when it's my car, I'm gonna be very cautious. Hey, how I go. So, so that's the difference between accountability and ownership. So I still believe that we need to keep leaders accountable. And that is top down. This is where, like I say, you put perspective as a leader and say, listen here, guys, we're deviating from standard. And then this is what, not what we've agreed on. We need to get back to the standard. We need to take the appropriate action to get back to standard, but also make sure that you don't lose or you don't see a sense there where people are losing ownership of this thing. Yeah, I know, I know. I said a lot now.

No, that's great. No, it's really good. I guess maybe to wrap things up, I'm wondering if, you know, perhaps there's someone listening to this right now, listening to this episode, maybe in South Africa or maybe some other part of the world where they're, you know, for. They're learning to implement Lean or they're just beginning to experiment with it, or just continuous improvement in general. And I'm wondering if you could maybe speak some words of advice or maybe some encouragement to that individual who is at the very early stages of their journey.

So, so first of all, if you want to start out any journey, you need to make sure that you understand your why. If you, if you have that, it becomes easier because it's all about impacting people. It's all about creating value, it's all about growing people. And then we can say what we want. 5s and PDCA will always be a part of any lean evolution. So once you start understanding that, then the other stuff you can learn along the way. But like I say, it's a lifestyle, it's a philosophy. If you are, if you are in a space whereby you continuously want to learn, it becomes easier. So first understand your why and then get to get to the basics of lean, which is obviously at the heart of any lean evolution is understanding the PDCA model, understanding 5S, because 5S impacts a lot of other pillars, other KPIs, and once you have mastered it, then maybe you can venture on. Like I say, if, if there, if you want to be specific and you want to get involved in Lean, but focus on, on lean projects, then it would be advisable maybe to do a course in, in Six Sigma. Get your, get your green belt, maybe go on to your black belt, but never lose your why. And I think what we've seen, and I know you would concur with me, what we have seen within the last couple of years happening in our lean movement, I think we have lost the why. Because when many of the older generations started, it is all about creating value. It's not about cost cutting and getting rid of people while you're doing projects. It's all about. It's a waste of human capital if you have three people doing the job that two people can do. So this is how we need to position it. And like I say, if I might mention a couple of names, so I've had. There's always been a contentious point in, in our country because we have an unemployment rate of over 40%. So we are very unionized people that would Speak out against experts in certain positions asking, like, how can we have Ronia? But we have local guys. But there's guys like Marcel Sutton, French guy that taught me a lot coming from the States where someone like my previous production manager, Hoodie, I think he lives in Texas, similar accent, rah rah, rah, rah, my Kip. We have, we had lean experts. There's another mentor, Ray Norris, that's quite close. I don't know if you're familiar with the guy. Pascal Dennis, also in the upper Pascal. So there's a lot of guys that helped me developed and some of my friends like Duncan Marman, Nabilu Sane, there's a lot of guys that helped me. And then obviously what contributed was I'll never forget the Ron Pereiras and the Jeffrey Leikers and I don't know if you know Billy Ray Taylor always.

Oh yeah, I know Billy.

Billy is also on another level. And only in the last couple of years, like I said, that I became self aware because a lot of my friends would say, like Roydon, why don't you venture onto different platforms because you've built up a lot of experience. But I always, like, I don't know if it's an African thing, but thinking like, no, but I'm not ready for this platform. And it's only like within the last two years that I say, but I believe that I do have a voice. When I look at my track record or when I look at my, my results, what I have achieved. Like I say, I was a late starter to formal education. I was in a managerial position without any degree. My degree was I got it from the Ron pereiras, like watching YouTube videos and as a young operator, not understand, like I say, understand the why keep the hunger, especially in this day and age. So when I grew up, I didn't know what is FMEA and what is control plans and what is audits and what is 666 stigma. But I ate the hunger and that propelled me to the next level. And then yeah, within the lean movement, it's important to have a coach, to have a mentor and to have a sponsor. It's also paramount to your development. And before we switch off, like when I, when I, when I developed. So what I did was because of the financial situation, I would look for mentor sponsors or coaches like in India where our currency is stronger, or in Malaysia or whatever. And then I would pay for my own development. I never waited for, for the company to develop me per se. So I would use my own money for development and Like I say, look where it has gotten me. So if there's anyone out there, young leader, like, there are people that you can reach out to, especially with platforms like, like LinkedIn and Twitter, where you can reach out. And that's why I say I'm graced for this opportunity. Because just looking at the speakers before me that you read on the podcast, it's guys that I have admired and that's why, and in South Africa, I grew up in a, in a gangster infested environment. So when we say in Afrikaans, me brew ex saluto, you know what salute means. But we, like, we put the emphasis. It means that I have got massive respect for you and for what you have done. And, and, and like I say, you are voice that will still echo long after you, long after you've left or you've gone into onto another adventure beyond the Gemba Academy, you would still resonate. You'll see fingerprints of, of Ron all over Africa because of what you've imparted into us.

Wow. Gosh. Well, thank you, Roy. And I really appreciate. I didn't expect that, but I'm, I'm humbled and, and so thankful and honored that, you know, Gemba Academy has been able to help you and well, hey, let's stay in touch. Hey, you've mentioned LinkedIn. I know that you're on LinkedIn. Is that the best way for people to connect with you?

Royden, that's the best way. Yeah. And obviously I'm busy creating a Facebook page and even what I wanted to discuss with you as well, because LinkedIn in our country still see for, like, for the white collar. So there's a lot of, like over 80% of our workforce is not on LinkedIn. In South Africa, they still use platforms like Facebook. But we can discuss offline because what I wanted to do is to put your content on Facebook. And like I say, we've got a huge platform with regards to Facebook, but if anyone wants to get in contact with me, I'm always available on, on LinkedIn. And now that I've set my personality type, you know, I'm relationally moved. For me, it's all about adding value. It's all about how can I impart, how can I leave a legacy.

Nice. Wow, wonderful. Well, I'm so happy that we were able to connect on this podcast. Please keep up the great work. And hey, maybe we'll have you on again down the road to hear about some more exciting things that you guys got going on.

Yes, like I say, going forward we can maybe zoom in on specific topics. Like, I say, I wanted to keep it general because, like, I say, I was looking, I was actually looking through the podcast to see, like, if there's any South African or African that has been on. Like, and I think it's a space that, that I know you're going to venture in because, like, the world is still out there and you still have to be impactful. And I know I'm not going to be the first one and there will definitely be some others that will be come behind me. Yeah.

All right, well, thanks again for coming on, Royden. Keep up the great work.

Okay, thank you very much, Ron.

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