GA 527 | The Five Functions of Business with Zack Estes

Like you want to be effective whenever you're leading your team, leading your people. And I think it's good to look, to see what has worked in the past, like continuous improvement. Right? It's better to see like, well, this isn't ringing the bell anymore, or this isn't necessarily connecting to the audience. And if you think about how can I not just send a message but make sure that the message is received, that's kind of what has inspired the whole operationalized framework.

Today I'm excited to welcome Zach Estes to the show. Now Zach is the chief operating officer at a company called Path for Growth. We actually had one of his colleagues on Alex Judd a few episodes ago, well, many episodes ago where we had that this is water Talk. And so Zach and Alex are doing some amazing work over at a company called Path for Growth. And he tells you a little bit about what they're all about. It's like a coaching service and helping small businesses get better, that sort of thing. But Zach has a really cool background, and not cool just because I'm a little biased, but he's, he's got a lot of Lean in his background. He's been in manufacturing and he's been in healthcare. He's been applying Lean in many different ways. But now he's actually able to use the framework of Lean and PDCA and things like that for all types of work, including digital work. And so we had a pretty wide ranging conversation and we talk a little bit about his roots in Lean and then how that's impacting his work today and the role that it plays today. But then we get into some really fun conversation about something called he's passionate about something called the five functions of a business. And so he sort of walks through these five functions of the business. And we had a really interesting conversation about that. And then towards the end, Zach's got this pretty prolific goal of reading a number of Books in 2024 for a very specific reason. And so I'll leave it to the end for you to hear what that is. But it's a pretty powerful approach to developing yourself and I think is something that really inspired me to consider doing something similar myself. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com look for episode 527. Also be sure to scroll down on the app, whatever you're listening on, and follow Zach over on LinkedIn and follow path for Growth. They're doing some amazing work. And Zach's always got some really cool posts that he puts out there as well, so be sure to connect with them that way. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Zach, welcome to the show. How's it going, my man?

Thank you, sir. Doing well, Ron. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, man. So we've had Alex on before, but, gosh, I think. I probably think I've known you longer, Zach, just, you know, over the interwebs and all that. Longer than even Alex. So it's about time we had you on.

I know. I always think, man. So I started my career in manufacturing, and just thinking about, shoot, that's been eight, nine years now. And I've been familiar with Gimbal Academy ever since. And so it's. It's just so cool to be able to connect with you on LinkedIn and whatnot all throughout the years.

Yeah, man, for sure. For sure. All right, well, hey, Zach, you know the drill. We like to get things going with our guests. Sharing a quote. What do you got?

Okay, this is probably. I haven't listened to every episode. This has probably been shared before, but the one I always turn back to and the one I teach to my team often is, without a standard, there can be no improvement by the good old Taiichi Ono. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's my favorite quote, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, man. No, that's a good one. That's a good one. All right, well, hey, Zach, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and how you got into this line of work, and then maybe give us a little message about path for growth and what you guys are all about.

Yeah. Goodness, it's hard to. Hard to pick where to start. I. I went to college for manufacturing engineering, and right out of college, I started. I started as a process engineer and an aerospace manufacturing plant. We made titanium rails for different aerospace applications, typically for seat rails for airplanes, for Boeing, Airbus, all those good companies. And, yeah, man, I went from there. Actually, it was. I think it was, Amy, 2016 in Dallas where one of my leaders inside of the plant brought us to ame. And for the first time there, I saw, oh, like, this whole lean manufacturing thing. This isn't just a manufacturing thing. Half the people at AME in 2016 were in healthcare, and I was like, oh, okay. Like, I can apply these principles and practices to way more than just a manufacturing setting. I can apply them to business, period. And, you know, growing up, my father worked at the Toyota plant in San Antonio, and so every day, I kind of got to hear him talk about stories and the problems that they're solving and what they're working on got to visit the plant once or twice. And I was just so inspired by that and so obviously followed my dad's trail into manufacturing and. But after the ame, it kind of put a. It kind of put a spark in my mind to say, well, where else could I apply this? What could my career look like as a manufacturing engineer? And I found an opportunity with Vanderbilt Medical center out of Nashville. They were hiring manufacturing engineers.

Yeah.

For their operations improvement team. And I was just like, oh, they get it. Like, this is perfect. They. They get how manufacturing engineers can come alongside them and improve their operations. And that was such a blast. I stayed there for a couple of years. Man, so many good. So many good takeaways from that stint. And then after that, I was in a small group through my church. I had listened to the Entree Leadership podcast. Are you familiar with them?

Yep, I am.

Yeah. So I listened to Entree Leadership podcast for a while, and in my small group, the producer for that podcast at the time, I was such a big fan. I was like a fanboy, just geeking out, starting becoming friends with the producer of that podcast. And he told me, he's like, hey, man, we're looking at trying to figure out how to grow Ramsey's podcast production team in such a way that every time we launch a new show, we don't have to hire this whole new team for it. And so what they had kind of been doing is they brought in all this overhead and all this burden, so to speak, on the organization whenever they launched a new show. And they were kind of trying to say, like, how do we just principally replicate some of, like the lean manufacturing ideas of how do we get like an assembly line of producers and audio engineers and videographers and produce multiple shows with one larger team? And so I was a. I was a part of bringing that to fruition. And that was. That was a ton of fun. And that's actually where I met Alex. Alex Judd. He's the CEO and founder of Path for Growth. And I'm. I'm currently the COO of Path for Growth. And we. We just hit it off. I was kind of like the left brain. He was the right brain. And yeah, I followed him to Path for Growth and we've been. We've been helping impact driven leaders ever since. Yeah.

So tell a little bit more about Pathback growth and what do you guys are all about?

Yeah, we, man, our whole shtick is healthy growth. So we're a coaching business. We serve small business owners, small business leaders, In a capacity where we provide one on one coaching. All of our coaches are either former or current business owners. And so they have the experience of being in the trenches where small business owners have been. But then we come alongside them and turn them into professional coaches almost as if they're professional athletes. We have a onboarding, training, development regimen in such a way that they are, they, they truly are professional athletes in all senses of the word. Um, and then they have the experience of being a business owner and kind of being in the shoes that their customers are in. So, yeah, we come alongside many, many leaders in small business across America and a couple in Canada. And I know we have a, our podcast kind of influences all over the world. So it's a, it's a ton of fun there.

Yeah, man. No, that's great. You guys are doing awesome work. So. All right, well, I'm curious to hear a little bit more. Just obviously with your lean background, manufacturing background, many people listening are in that world, but also some of us are in more in non manufacturing, more in a. In the digital space. So how have you been able to apply lean and just say non manufacturing or in. In specifically digital spaces?

Yeah, great question. I. One of the things that I took from learning lean practices and principles in manufacturing. So I'm sure your audience is familiar with PDCA or PDSA and just that routine of continuous improvement at the Gemba I found first at Vanderbilt, actually at the hospital, that. That didn't connect, that people didn't understand, like, okay, well, like, how do we do this? Like, what does this actually look like? And I started just to feel the friction associated with taking the organization from here to there. And so one of the things Alex and I kind of workshopped was how do we clarify this in such a way that's a little bit more easier to take a bite out of, so to speak. And so we kind of came up with a framework that's called operationalizing your business. Just to simply operationalize. And how that's done is through four steps. And it very much follows the same umph of pdca, but it's standardizing. Standardizing starts with having a vision for what success looks like and a proven process for accomplishing those outcomes. Second step is documenting like, so putting that. That standard on paper so that it can be repeated and executed according to standard. The third step is evaluating the execution of that standard. And then the fourth step is coming back and improving that standard according to the evaluation. And so I say all of that to say that process, that framework that Four step process, standardize, document, evaluate, improve. Is way, I found way more easier to apply in any sense, in any sense of work, whether it be digital or plant based or whatever, whatever, whatever you want to be able to have. I think training people to an easier system to adopt Lean methodologies is a really big passion of mine. And so I found a lot of success with it. And it's kind of one of those things of like, you want to be effective, right? Like you want to be effective whenever you're leading your team, leading your people. And I think it's good to look to see what has worked in the past, but I think it's all like continuous improvement. Right. It's better to see like, well, this isn't ringing the bell anymore, or this isn't necessarily connecting to the audience. And if you think about how can I not just send a message, but make sure that the message is received, that's kind of what has inspired the whole operationalized framework. And so there's a bunch of principles and practices from Lean methodologies that I've applied into the digital workspace, but that's kind of just one of them.

Now, do, do you ever speak about like Lean specifically when you're working with clients, or is it just more sort of like in your DNA, like who you are and kind of your foundation?

Yeah, good question. I, I do. I definitely speak towards, like, how it's typically the second conversation. I think the first conversation is always kind of casting a vision for what work looks like. I always kind of say, like, no one's been trained to work. And so like, you know, you can have someone 20 years into the career and they've only just learned how to work based on what they've seen has been effective in their career or what they've been recognized for, what they've been promoted for. And I think about Lean methodologies like operationalization or like making your work visible. I think about those things as like frameworks for teaching people how to get their work done and how to effectively work at the job. You know, it's a very tight, inspired thought of, just because someone's standing there doesn't mean that they're working. Like, where is value actually created at the Gimba and how does that apply? And so what I've found is people, if they have no manufacturing background, people aren't quick to empathize with Toyota or any sort of manufacturing or even just like Japanese terms.

Yeah.

And so kind of adopting a different lens and then kind of encouraging them like, hey, go check out Taichi Ona's workplace management book. Go check out 2 second lean by Paul Akers. Go check out Gimba Academy. You know, like I was going to start.

Wait, wait, wait.

Yeah, no, I pointed people yalls way for sure. Um, but that's kind of the second step. It's like, okay, once they're bought in on this is the way in which we can work more effectively and efficiently for the sake of the customer, then they start to open their eyes up like, oh, this is just good business. It's not manufacturing, it's not health care, it's not, you name it, it's just good business.

Now what are you, what's your take? Like, just like one of the core Lean principle, as you know, is, you know, visual management, making things visible. Like what are your thoughts then on that as it pertains to this type of work where it might not be easy to make things visible.

Yeah, man, I'm a huge. So, like, you know, a decade ago we would have thought about this type of work, even engineering, so to speak. Like anything that's laptop based, essentially we would have thought about as like thought work or white collar work or any of those descriptions. And I just, I'm a super believer in all of that stuff can be made visible. And so a book that came out recently that I think highlights this practice is Clear Thinking by Shane Parrish. Have you checked that out yet?

No, I haven't.

Yeah, so I mean, the gist of the book is just like, make your thoughts clear. And a way in which you can do that, and Jordan Peterson is a good proponent of making your thoughts clear in this way too is by writing, developing the skill of writing. And you know, a practice that Amazon has as an example is that before every meeting they have a, they type out a six page memo just to make their thoughts clear of like what it is that we're trying to accomplish here so that way we don't have to waste time wrestling through everyone getting on the same page. And so all that to say, making your work clear, whether it's strategy or tactical work or executive work, I think documenting that on your calendar or in a task management system, it can be done. It can be for sure be done. And I think kind of developing a rhythm of daily 3s in that way of like, okay, how are you going to, as a thought leader, so to speak? And everyone is a thought leader, whether you like it or not, as a thought leader, how are you going to prioritize where your time and energy and money is spent and can you just make that clear? Get it out of your head, put it on a calendar, put it on a task management system, put it somewhere that it can be effectively used rather than just trying to decide, okay, I'm going to work on this now because I feel like it.

Yeah. What is the hardest type of work or activity to make visible in your opinion? Or what have you struggled with the most?

I think more principally envisioning what you want the outcome to look like. And so in manufacturing, as an example, the customer may request a quote and they want this specific product. And so they have a spec sheet. Right. We have a specification sheet to deliver to the customer. That's a, that's a literal document of what winning looks like. Right. If it's not the spec, then it's a defect. They don't want it. I think in the digital world, just trying to think about, like, okay, what are we wanting to accomplish this year as a business? What are we wanting to accomplish in this session with a customer? Like, envisioning what winning looks like and what the outcome is that we want, I think is a huge, just a massive discipline that people lack because the customer is not necessarily making it clear. And so trying to, trying to act on behalf of the customer and say, how can we act in the best interest in such a way that we can just document three to five bullet points? What does winning look like? And get in a rhythm of doing that for every meeting, every role in your organization, every process in your organization, like, start with the outcome in mind and have a vision for that. I think that's the, that's the biggest win that people can make and it's the hardest, honestly, I think. Yeah, people tend to have strengths and talents that make that easier for them, but that's, that's been hard for me, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mr.

Covey had it right many years ago. Begin with the end in mind. Right. But it's easy, easy to say, and writing a book, but, boy, it's sometimes very difficult to do. Practically speaking, I've something that I've. That, that I know you're passionate about and that I've seen you discuss online and, and we were even chatting about a little bit before was just this. Five functions of a business. Walk us through that. What, what, what, what in your opinion, are the five functions of business?

Yeah, I'm going to be vulnerable here because I haven't been challenged on this. So if you think that this is wrong or something's missing, I want to hear from you on it. So the Five functions of business. First is value creation. I'll list them out and then we'll kind of talk through them. First, value creation. Second, value delivery. Third, customer acquisition. Fourth, talent acquisition, and fifth, resource management. And so the thing that I'm really passionate about there is, you know, whenever you're, you're lean oriented and you kind of have eyes to see, so to speak, as far as like how value is created in an organization for the customer, you start to ask the question, it's like, well, what is waste? Because sales feels necessary, but that's not necessarily creating value. And so is that, is that wasteful? Like, where does that go? Is that necessary? Where does that go? And so I just started thinking about like, okay, what are the things that a business needs to do? And let's just label those. And so the funny thing about that is that value creation is that first function and that's what the customer is paying for, period. Everything else the business is paying for, how the value gets delivered to the customer, how the business acquires customers, how the business acquires talent, and how the resources are managed within the business is all that is like waste. It's all non value added activity. However, that doesn't mean it's not necessary. It just means you got to pay attention to it because it's not what the customer is paying for.

Got it, Got it. I can get on board with that. Yeah, so walk, walk through the other ones a little bit more.

Yeah, sure. So, so, so value creation is, you know, the, the specific value that a customer is paying for, the solution to their problem. Value delivery is kind of what I was talking about earlier. You know, in the, in the skill set of communication. It's not, it's one thing to deliver a message, it's another thing to ensure that the recipient receives the message. And we, you know, if, if you use the manufacturing plant as an example, well, you can create the product all day, but if the shipping company doesn't get it to the customer, then it's, then it's pointless. Like it's not what they wanted, it's not on time, it's not on budget, or it's late, et cetera. So value delivery thinks about like the customer's experience in that moment, thinks about how do we make this a smooth process from request to received, so to speak, going to the third one customer acquisition, that's all about marketing and sales. That's the marketing and sales discipline of a, of a business. How do we attract people with certain problems to the solutions that we can offer? Them and make sure that they're aware of the value that we can provide for them. Mm. Talent acquisition. I think this one's misunderstood. Often, yes, it's about hiring people and increasing your kind of capacity from a. From a headcount perspective, but it's also exactly as it says, talent acquisition. You know, whenever you bring someone on into your organization, you are acquiring their talents. And so if someone's not bringing new and different and more valuable talents than you already have, they may not be a good addition to your company. Like, it's worth thinking about, how is the company as a whole acquiring talent? Not. And I, you know, I'm not saying human acquisition. I'm saying talent acquisition. Right. What are the skills and strengths that that person can bring? And then what are the talents that the company that's already there, how are they acquiring talents? What's the development for continuous improvement on an individual basis? You know, how does someone grow while they're at your company? That's all under the function of talent acquisition. And then finally, resource management, that's really just the more of an executive function, but also a leadership function. Like, how do we amplify the time, energy and money that's being dedicated to the company, whether it be thinking about cash flow or thinking about it, or human resources or benefits? Like, how do we think about making the resources available to us time, energy and money dedicated in such a way that's really incentivizing value creation? And so it all kind of points back to, like, all four. The second through fifth functions of business should really be in support of the first one, which is value creation. And so you start to just think in that resource management function, you start to just think, like, how is our org chart set up in such a way that we're supporting the people who are actually creating value for our customers? Like, are we supporting them so that they can support the customers? And so, yeah, just, it's an amplification of resources, whereas the other ones are all spending resources.

Okay, so we got number one, value creation, number two, value delivery, number three, customer acquisition, number four, talent acquisition, and five, resource management.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I think it's really interesting, I guess, is the order important that you have them in? I mean, maybe value creation for sure at the top, but what about 2 through 5? Is there any wiggle room, do you think, on the, on the number that they are.

No, I don't. I don't think. I don't think it matters. I don't think they're like, in a specific order. However, I will say, as you look at the hierarchy of an organization, typically the front line tends to be more towards value creation and value delivery, and the folks at the top of the organization tend to be more talent acquisition and resource management. And so if you just think about that principally, I think they could be lined up in that way, so to speak. But yeah, I think. I think as long as you keep in mind, I don't think there's any hard and fast rule here. You know, I just kind of made this up based on my observations. Yeah. But I think if you keep in mind, value creation is the soul of the business. Like, it's. The business is there to serve the customers with the value that they provide, then. Then you'll have everything in right order.

Yeah, and that's a big one. I mean, like, value creation in and of itself probably has multiple layers to it.

Right.

Because, like, what do you. What do we create? Like, what's the world want or need? Right. That they might not even know.

Right, right.

So that. That's a. Like Henry Ford, you know, is like, well, if I just ask everybody what they wanted, they said a faster horse. You know what I mean? Well, we obviously needed something more beyond horses, right?

Exactly. Right.

But it's. It's hard to. To even. Even with AI and all this stuff coming out. Everything's so fast now. It's like, what is the world gonna look like three, four years from now? Heck, three, four months from now, really.

And I think that connects to what I was talking about, like, envisioning the outcome earlier. So it's not, you know, it could be wasteful to create a new and better car right now. What you need to think about, though, is how do we get someone from here to there? Like, that's what a car is doing. That's the problem that it's solving. It's faster for them to drive in a vehicle than it is for them to walk, so to speak, or it's more convenient or whatever. Whatever the thing is that they're valuing, you know, so if you think about the outcome of what a customer is trying to accomplish in their life, then you can find more creative ways to actually solve that problem. And so, like, as of right now, you know, Path for Growth is a coaching business, and a way in which we deliver our value is through a coaching call. But who's to say that we can't do that more efficiently or effectively? Like, who's to say we can't help them grow as a leader or as a business owner in A different way in the future that you know, it's a limitless opportunities if you think about it that way, because we're specifically wanting to solve specific problems that they're looking to have changed in their life. And it's kind of a custom job shop in that way. Right. And so currently we do that through the method of a coaching call. But man, there's so many, there's so many different ways in which we can accomplish that.

So what are you guys take on, on the whole AI movement and now like you know, Vision Pro goggles are out and glasses are out and you know, people like my business partner Kevin is one of those early stand in the line kind of geeks and, and he, he already, he's already got his Vision Pro and you know, and playing with it and all the rest of it. Like what is your thoughts on just technology and the advancements that are happening.

So rapidly and what, and what dynamics do you want to discuss, man, the world?

I don't know, like business and I guess business for sure.

Right? Yeah.

You know, even just take your business or Gemba Academy's business. Like how is it going to impact coaching? How's it going to impact learning and development? These types of things?

Yes. Learning and development is the biggest thing that I, I see as it's most valuable in the short term at least. Like if you think about written down standards as like how do we train someone on a standard? What if you could just show them and what if it was just attached? It sounds so silly to say, but what if it was just attached to their face and in. You know, particularly in a plant. I think it would be valuable if someone is wearing these goggles that just showed them what to do at each step of the moment. They could make an intentional decision whether or not to follow the standard. Yeah. Rather than having to remember the standard standard or have it memorized in such a way, you know, it, it can give visual cues that is way more adaptable than trying to create physical visual cues. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So question that I gotta ask you.

I've, I've.

I've heard rumblings, Zach, that you've got this goal about reading pretty large number of books in 2024. So what's that all about?

Yeah, I, man, I. So as I was kind of observing, I think, I don't know, maybe I'd love to talk to you about this at some point, but I think observation is a skill set that people don't intentionally learn. And I think I just picked it up from manufacturing like it was a part of, hey, let's like, watch the machine run.

Stand in the circle.

Yeah, like, go to the gimba. Let's smell. Let's smell what? The oil. If. Is there oil burning? What. What does it sound like? Are there incongruencies? All that to say the five functions really came from just my observations of working with business owners all over the country of what are the, what are the core functions of a business? And I kind of just decided, like, hey, if I were, if I were to put together a sort of an apprenticeship for my, for myself and wanted to learn more about the five functions, what if I made a book list of 10 books per function and just focused on that for a year? And so, yeah, I've dedicated 20, 24 to reading 50 books, one or 10 per function of business, just to really kind of look for nuggets about how older, wiser, dead people before us have thought about each of those functions of business in history.

How are you going about choosing the books?

Great question. Yeah. So they're for sure just bias, but I just went through thinking about, like, who, who are the models that I think about in each category? And so value creation. I thought about Toyota, so there's a lot of Taiichi Ono, there's, you know, Michael Balden, Jeffrey Leiker. Just a lot of like lean, lean focus there in value delivery. I thought a lot about Amazon. So, you know, reading the Bezos letters, reading, you know, even just like the box by Mark Levinson, thinking about how the shipping container changed the world. Reading about the effortless experience of a customer and kind of working backwards. And so I kind of just chose different archetypes, so to speak, and played around with people in that field, I guess, or industries in that field, businesses in that field, and thought about what, what are the, you know, they're kind of known like Amazon is an example. They're known for being super customer focused. The customer's gonna be the first thing that they make a sacrifice for. And it's benefited the whole world and in good ways and bad. It's been, there's been pros and cons to that, but nonetheless, they have figured out how to deliver value most efficiently at the most affordable price. And so there's, there's something that we can learn from them, for sure.

What about, like, Apple? Like, where, where were you? Where are you putting anything from Apple and in the five categories?

Yeah, for sure. I think, I don't think I have anything.

Job, something like that.

Yeah, if I had anything from them, it was Being their value creation and value delivery. Probably, yeah. Just thinking about, like how they think about one, their product and solving big problems and then two, honestly, maybe even customer acquisition. Like how.

I was going to say, they're masters at marketing, really, you know, brilliant marketers. Yeah, yeah. I mean, amazing products as well. I'm using one right now.

Exactly. Yeah. And if you think about value delivery, like the packaging, like the care that they take to. Yeah.

You don't want to throw it away.

Right, Exactly. People collect those things. So. Yeah. Yeah. And then so in customer acquisition, it's very like sales oriented. Very psychology. Marketing oriented. Talent acquisition. Talent acquisition is funny. It's a little bit more personal development oriented. So there's some Tim Ferriss in there, some Robert Green, some Morgan Housel, Shane Parrish.

Do you have all the books outlined right now like that, that you're gonna. Okay. Is that something that you're willing to share?

Yeah, it's on there. That would be kind of cool. You can throw it in the show notes.

You do have it on LinkedIn. Okay.

I didn't.

I know. I saw that you were writing. I didn't remember seeing a list. So I'll get you to send me the link and then we'll put it in the show notes. Everybody go and click on it. For sure. They can join you on the. On the.

You should.

I mean, have you ever thought about doing any sort of like, are you big, like, book club kind of guy or anything like that or.

I've thought about it maybe eventually. I think right now that the organization of that just takes too much.

Well, this is about you right now. You gotta be a little selfish right now, right?

Totally. Yeah. And it's just my own apprenticeship. Like, I don't know if this will work. I just, I'm just looking to grow in these areas, so.

No, that's so cool. Well, I also saw on LinkedIn that your. Your wife. I think it was you, right? Not. It wasn't. I think Alex has done this as well. But you went away for like a weekend or whatever by yourself, right? And yeah, kind of just got away to. To read and pray and think about life. Right. What was that all about?

Yeah, that's where this whole idea of apprenticeship came from. My. So my wife bought me as a. As my birthday present. She was just like, hey, take 48 hours. Which, this felt weird to me. This felt selfish to me. And I was like, I. I want to go, like, get away with you. Like, let's, let's go do that. And she was like, no, I think it'd be good for you just to, like, go and have a weekend away from me and the kids and your responsibilities, all that stuff, and just spend 48 hours, like, doing what you want to do, read, write, pray, just spend time in Scripture and hang out. And so I did that. I spent a lot of time in the New Testament. I spent a lot of time with Charlie Munger reading Poor Charlie's Almanac and man. Yeah. So that wording around like an apprenticeship really came from that day of just thinking about, like, how is my life? I think I kind of came up with a framework in my head for. I've always been confused about discipleship. Like, I'm a follower of Jesus and I've never really understood, like, okay, well, there in discipleship there must be disciplines that I can practice. But what about all the in between moments? And through that day, I kind of reflected and was like, not to say that the Bible's wrong at all. I just needed something dumber for me to put to use. And so I thought. Thought about it more as, like, an apprenticeship where Jesus is the master. And there are for sure daily disciplines that I can engage with to activate or to act out my apprenticeship, such as reading, writing, praying, exercising, working, resting. But I have to remember that, like, life, at least for me and in my mindset in this life is the apprenticeship. And so, like, yes, there are all these daily disciplines, but it's also all the in between moments, like, how am I acting in such a way where I'm reflecting my master that I'm following. And so obviously, if you double click on, like, the work discipline of my life, apprenticeship, so, so to speak, one of the ways I'm kind of creating my own apprenticeship is through these 50 books.

Yeah, I love it. Well, and the thing about, I mean, you know, you're talking about apprenticeship and Jesus, but, you know, there's not much written about, you know, so Jesus, you know, goes to the temple and his parents are freaking out, like, well, where is he? Right? And then they find them. And then there's a little line he like, was it grew in wisdom and stature. And I'm like, and then he's 30. We're like, wait a minute. So we went from this kid getting lost to, you know, the wedding at Cana kind of thing. There was a lot in between there. So I often think about those days. It's not written necessarily, and in Scripture, but like with Jesus and Joseph and all the things Joseph taught him, you know, how to build a table, how to you know what I mean? And there's so much about. About learning. And if, if God Incarnate can learn, all of us can learn. Right.

And. And submit yourself to someone who knows more than you or someone who has more skills than you. Like. Yeah, exactly. God Incarnate came as a baby, like completely helpless in that moment who needed help from lesser folks, so to speak. And so.

Right.

Yeah. It's just really neat example. Yeah.

Very cool, man. Oh, such a, such a good conversation. Thanks for coming on, Zach. This has been a lot of fun. Hey, if folks want to connect with you and learn more about Path for Growth and all you guys are about, what's the best way.

Yeah, you can go to pathforgrowth.com there's. We have so many free resources on there for people to. We. Our mission is to help impact driven leaders step into who they were created to be so that others benefit. And God is glorified. And man, we. It's so cool just to see how many people take advantage of the resources that we create because our mission can be accomplished without people becoming customers. And so yeah, go to pathforgoth.com you can click on the how to operationalize your business free download. And yeah, I hope to. Hope to see you all there soon.

Yeah. And then also you're on, you're on LinkedIn. So we're going to get everything, get all your links in the show notes. Everybody please scroll down and go follow Zach and go follow Path Growth and follow Alex too, man. Alex is a pretty cool dude, man. Did you listen to that? What? This is Water episode that you and I did.

It was so good. It was awesome. Yeah. What's the reception been like on that?

It was good. Yeah. I mean, it's obviously a very different type of, you know, episode, but what a powerful speech. And just, yeah, just. I thought of Alex immediately when I was like, you know, I was like, hey man, let's do this.

Yeah, that's brilliant. That was an impactful episode for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good stuff. All right, man. Well, hey, take care. Keep up the great work and let's do this again down the road and hear about more cool things that you guys are up to.

Awesome. Thanks, sir.

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