GA 531 | Lean at MacDonald & Owen with Clint West

To do everything I can to make our place a safer and safer environment. Everybody should leave today, I think better than they came in in the morning. If we do it right, if we love our people and we create an environment that's safe, they should be better than they were when they punched in this morning.

Today I am excited to welcome my friend Clint west back to the show. Now, Clint is the CEO at a company called McDonald and Owen, and they're a lumber company and they're on a prolific journey of continuous improvement. And we've had a good fortune of being able to work with Clint and his team over the years on various Lean improvements. And they've sent a bunch of people through our Lean Practitioner certification program. And it's just been fantastic to work with. And so today on the show, Clint and I really talk about their journey and in particular the early days of of lean at McDonald and Owen. Like, what did it look like at the beginning? Why were they doing it? Clint actually shares some really cool examples of some of the initial focus and really they still still do focus on these things. But initially there was a strong focus on safety. You can imagine in a lumber yard, safety is extremely important as it is in many places. But in addition to safety, they were also really focused. Clint in particular is really focused on the cultural of the company and just really investing in their people. Clint went explained that, you know, everybody's all their competitors. They all have the same equipment, they all have the same things, access to the same tools and so forth. So really it's their people that separates McDonald, Owen from their competitors. What's interesting, I was actually bouncing around on their website today and before I recorded this intro and I landed on their About Us page and there was a really cool story of the gentleman, Archie McDonald, who is the founder of McDonald and Owen. And then on this page they shared a quote that Archie had shared with the current president, David Twight. And Archie had said, the only thing you really have is your honor. There's plenty of money to be made, so treat people right. If you cheat people and lie just to make a few extra dollars, no one will trust you. I think it's a beautiful statement. And as you're going to hear, this is really at the heart of what McDonald and it's all about. It's really about people and treating them right, including your employees, your customers, and everyone else in between. So really good episode. I think you're going to enjoy it. I know. I love talking to Clint. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com look for episode 531. Also, please do connect with Clint and tell him thank you for coming onto the show. And if you don't mind, give us a five star review over on that Apple podcast app. If you're on that one or if you're on Spotify or whatever you're listening to the podcast on. If you can give us a review and leave a little comment. I read every single one of them and it really does help us spread the news of, of this podcast and really ultimately spread the good news that is lean and, and continuous improvement. So I'd appreciate that. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Clint, welcome back to the show. How's it going?

Good, buddy, good. We got a. We got our last snowfall of the year, we hope, here today, so. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of.

Yeah.

Snowmobiles that are rejoicing and a lot of people that put their, you know that, that had their shorts and T shirts ready to go. Yeah. Or not. So.

Yeah. So people are listening to this right now because we're like 10 episodes ahead when I'm recording this, we're recording this in the end of March, people. So don't, don't think, like, wait, why in May or whatever, this thing comes out, Right. Are you talking about snow? You know, but, but no, that's awesome, man. But listen, I, as you know, I, I grew up in the Midwest, man, and I remember there'll be times when it's like April or whatever and it's like some snow coming. I was like, enough.

Winter's coming. That's, that's, at some point it's coming back again. So. Yeah, it's great. It's. I appreciate, appreciate you taking some time with me here today. I always cherish my time with the Gemba round. You know that I'm a big fan and, and a big believer in, in what you guys are teaching there. So thank you for your faithfulness over the years to help the world be a better, leaner place.

Yeah, well, we appreciate you guys as well, man. I love working with you and your team, so. Well, good stuff. Well, hey, Clint, you know the drill, man. We like to begin all of our episodes with our guest sharing a quote. So what do you got?

Well, the quote, the quote that's been on my mind here recently is that lean is not a list of things to do, but a way of thinking.

What's that mean to you?

Well, I tell you what it means to me is we've got A company that's been around for 50 years and we've had some successes. And when you look back at the things that made you successful in the past, those may or may not be the things that make you successful into the future. And when you're trying to lead from an entrepreneurial startup, you know, visionary led company to a lean scientific thinking company, that you have to confront some things that you, you need to learn to think different. And you have to challenge some established pathways that you have in your brain about what you believe to be true.

Man, I mean, it's such a. If you think about, we could just have a podcast just on this topic alone, right? Because, I mean, thinking differently, you know, whether it's in the context of continuous improvement or just the way that we treat one another as human beings, right? Like, it's so difficult for me, a lot of it has to do with our, you know, the various biases that we have as human beings. Whether there's, I mean, like, you know, there's all kinds of biases, recency bias or confirmation bias. Like, just go on to your favorite, you know, social media platform with all the people that think like you do and say what you want to say and you know what I mean, it's like echo chamber and all that. And then you bring all that with you into, into work or whatever again in your community, at home, all that kind of stuff. I mean, are, do you, you see that, do you see biases as a, as an obstacle?

Oh, there's no question, friend. I'm just so glad that you're willing to go there. You know, in, in, in so many ways, our culture is, you, you can set it up where you don't have to listen to any music that you don't want to listen to. You don't have to hear the news that you don't want to listen to. And so when you, when you have a world that is shaped by everything that you've already decided, you want yourself to be influenced in, you know, you could, you could be allowing yourself to get into a place that isn't necessarily the most healthy or the most accountable place to be. And in our company, because we kind of have, even for the first 50 years of our existence, have had a, like an entrepreneurial, heroic human effort has driven the company forward. And you know, you look and when you have six people and you know your company is small, you need that. You know, you need some of that heroic human effort. But as you advance, you can't sustainably trust in heroic human effort.

Forever.

It's not scalable, it's not replicable. You can't train that into a new person. And so really, that transition from heroic human effort to flawless, repeatable standard work and scientific problem solving, that's where we're at as a company right now. And it is no small feat to challenge some of those assumptions that we have in our brains.

I love it. All right, well, hey, Clint, let's jump back a step and tell everybody about. About yourself. Tell us about your background, how you first got involved in this line of work that you're in, and then catch everybody up. Like, what do you do today?

Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, I was born long line of farmers in northeastern Nebraska. And, you know, when I was about five years old, our house burned down and we had to, you know, we had to sell the farm, move to the city, and my family moved a lot. And, you know, we ended up in a little town called La Crosse, Wisconsin, and ended up going to college there. And I got a degree that nobody really cared about. So here I am. I got a degree. I promised my mom I would finish college, and I did. But I got a degree that nobody cares about. And I had a family friend that said, hey, maybe, maybe you want to try the lumber business. And so I was employee number six at the great McDonald and Owen Lumber Company. And today we have 206 and people and, you know, we went from 10 million to 130 million in sales last year. So it's been an amazing and epic ride. And it's so fun to be a part of such a dynamic organization. And it was really clear to me, Ron, a few years ago, as a company had grown, we had reached a plateau that we weren't going to be able to grow past the heroic human effort that we had trusted in over the years to get us where we're at, that we needed to completely and cataclysmically embrace a different mindset if we were going to grow. And so that's where we reached out to the Gemba and to help us, help us to embrace lean thinking and scientific problem solving. And really, it's been really fun and challenging. Challenging and fun to be a part of that type of effort.

Yeah. Well, it's been fun watching you guys grow and improve. And I know you've worked very closely with Steve Cain over there on our coaching certification team, so. But, Clint, what are you. What's your role today for McDonnell and Owen?

Yeah, I'm the CEO, and my job is to make sure that the company is positioned properly in the marketplace and that it's healthy. See, we believe that health, the cultural health of the company is the probably the most important thing for future success. The machines are all the same, the forest is all the same. And we think the only thing that makes us different is how well we can recruit and train and weaponize great human talent. And we don't think we can do that with out standard work kind of coaching a lot of the lean methodology that we, that we've learned along the way working with Steve Cain and the others at the Gemba.

So walk us through your career. I'm curious, you know, CEO, now you're the top, like what are some of the. And you don't have to list them all because I'm sure there's been a bunch. But like what's your, your career progression look like?

So, so I started in sales and it was kind of just go see if you can get people to buy boards from was which was fun at the time. And what you realize is like, hey, once you get people to buy boards from you, then the problem isn't necessarily selling the boards, but it's producing them at the rate and cost that the people want to keep buying those boards from you. And so as we've grown our manufacturing footprint over the last 20 years, the real challenge has been in how do we, how do we produce the right amount and quality and volume at the right time for our customers that want to keep buying from us. So it's been a fun and unique challenge, no doubt. But as the company's grown then my responsibilities became more making sure that our leadership team is strong. And almost all of my effort goes into that nowadays is do we have the right leaders in the right places at end the that can handle the load that we've entrusted to them.

Now. So you guys have had a, you know, again, an interesting journey with Lean. I'm curious to hear your, your thoughts as the CEO. Like, how are you. I mean the good thing about your company is you're bought in, right? And so not everybody unfortunately listening has a CEO that's as bought in as you are. But, but let's start with, let's start there. Let's assume that we've got some CEOs or some leaders of organizations listening. What are some of things that you feel like if you look back on it, that, that maybe you have, you feel like you've done done well, you know, in all humility, but also maybe some things that you have not done so well again in all humility, I.

Think, you know, things that I look back and I'm proud of is that our, our team is relentless and we went through the 2008 housing crisis and we came out of that stronger. And we've endured multiple rounds of trade wars in Covid and post Covid and so much volatility in our space and in our industry. Over the course of the last 20 years, we've seen consumption of US hardwoods go from 20 billion board feet a year to four. And during that time we went from 10 million in sales to 130. It's the exact opposite slope in our company versus our industry. And we're real proud of that. That means that we're doing a lot of things right. But at the same time, as I look back and I think about those 20 years, it wasn't only right and it wasn't only perfect and it wasn't only good. And we've had to learn how to challenge each other in ways that actually produce a result instead of resentment. And that's tough to do sometimes and you can only do it, I believe, if you have lean methodologies in play. Because then you're talking about a system, not a person. And I'm not frustrated with you, the person, I'm frustrated with the system. And I think that that is the part of our growth that I wish 20 years ago, if I had it to do all over again, I would have embraced that sooner and faster and more aggressively because I really think that the people are not our problem. They're not. And I love our people. I think our people are great. I think we have a world class company. But too often a problem, a systematic problem can be reduced into a person frustration and then nothing super positive comes from that. And so really that shifting from people dependency to process proficiency is really, you know, if I had it to do all over again, that's what I would have really put more energy into that sooner.

And you would come to Gamb Academy sooner, obviously.

That's right.

So walk us through then the journey then. Like, I mean, did you start with just some of the basics or did you start. Because I mean you guys were started on this way, on this journey before you came to Gimba Academy. So it wasn't like you were doing nothing right when you came came to us. So talk about those early days. What did it look like? What did continuous improvement look like?

Yeah, it started with the lean and the process improvement started with just some of our people that were saying, hey, we have to do, we have to do our leadership different and managing inventory and leading people and managing our processes and leading our people. That there was a distinction that we're, that we started to learn and we knew we needed a. In order for us to grow we had to be able to teach people to do the things that we needed to have done in a more systematic and. And user friendly way. And so that's kind of where it started was just like how do we, how do we create standard work that somebody coming that doesn't know anything about lumber can come in and quickly learn how to contribute in, in a systematic and smooth and in a way that is, that, that's helpful for everybody, including them. So once we've decided we're going to go down that road, you know what it's like. You start down that road and you realize, wow, this isn't, this is not it. There's no specific silver bullet for this. This is a, this is a marathon, never ending, constant, continuous improvement quest that will. We. We. We understood right away that this was going to be the rest of our career.

So give us some examples of some of the things that you've done to. Because I remember from the last time we talked was at episode 514 where you know, you sort of touched on like some of the, the results that you guys have achieved as you know, as a result of continuous improvement, like financial, you know, benefits and things like that. But like what are you trying to improve? Like just be more efficient. I know safety is a huge part of your, of your culture. Maybe, maybe talk about some of the actual improvements that you've made.

Yeah. When we. So when like anything, whenever you start doing something, you don't do it as well as you will if you stay committed to it. And so when we realized we did some audits and we did some. We asked some professionals to come in and give us a critique on what was our safety environment and, and what was our. So we actually hired a firm to come in and give us an audit of the physical environment in our facilities. And we also asked a firm to come in and give us an audit of our cultural health. And those are kind of the two things that we, we were having a lot of turnover in our staff and we had some injuries that were just unacceptable. And so we knew that at least that was the kind of the starting point was how do we decrease our turnover and how do we increase our safety for the sake of our people? There's that we realized that there was something there that we could do differently. And so asking some people from outside the company to come in and give us an assessment, give us a starting point, you know, that we say, okay, well we can, you know, can we do these things that they've said we need to do? And then what happened is that we got to the point where we would do those things that those outside people would tell us we, we could or should do. But then our people started to say, hey, well we could do that, but we could also do this. And next thing you know, we've got some inertia going and, and things are starting to happen from the ground up, which is really, really, really powerful and exciting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's great just to, to get some help, you know, to get, to get going. But this not, don't rely on that help for the next 15 years. Right? Like get, get. Find some consultants that will teach you how to fish, right? If they don't want to teach you how to fish, get them out of there, dude, because you're the fish. So, so what about. And feel free to share as much as you can. I mean, you're the CEOs. Like, you can say whatever you want, probably, but, but like I remember and maybe you were sharing this offline. So just tell me to shut up if need be. But, but talk about some of the financial benefits or sales benefits that you've, that you've seen as a result of, of implementing lean in your company.

Yeah, it's, I mean it's, it's really been. Our, our turnover is down substantially over the last four years. Our inventory turns are up almost. We went from four to six and a half inventory turns a year, which in our space is, is really huge. I mean that's millions of dollars. With the inventory that we're, we can redeploy those resources in other directions now because of our ability to turn it faster and more efficiently. Our profit margins are up and our year over year sales to customers is at least as good as it was before. And we're picking up new customers along the way. So what we're realizing is that we're growing and keeping and growing our relevance with our customers and adding new customers in a time where overall industry is in decline. Something we're real proud of. It's, you know, we are just happy to out hustle our competitors, but also we're happy to consistently deliver what our customers need when they need it.

What do you think the state of, of lean and continuous improvement is in your specific industry, like with your competitors and that sort of thing? Are they are they also trying to practice Lean?

Yeah. I think in our industry you have a, a huge spectrum of sensitivity to, let's say specifically safety. In our industry you have really world class people with companies with multiple years of zero lost time and zero incidences. They're very rightfully proud of the conditions in their workplace and their safety practices. Same time every year you will hear a tragic story about somebody who died in our industry. It's terrible. We've had multiple vendors of ours that have lost employees in the last year. And that's something that compels me to do everything I can to make our place a safer and safer environment. Everybody should leave today, I think better than they came in, in the morning if we do it right. You know, if we, if we love our people and we create an environment that's safe, they should do be better than they were when they came. They punched in this morning.

Yeah.

And that's the goal, is that we go for that. And it's just tragic to hear of somebody whose backup alarm wasn't working properly. You know, someone is injured or a machine that wasn't guarded properly and someone was injured. And you know that, that type of situation is just so, it's just, that's fuel in my fire, so to speak. Because I don't want that to be M and O. That cannot be our company. We can't have something like that happen to our great people. And I don't want it for anybody anywhere. But I can't control everybody anywhere. But I can, I can wield any kind of influence I have here to help make our environment a safer place. And honestly, team based problem solving, scientific problem solving, all that Lean applied to a safety of our environment is helping us advance that agenda.

Yeah.

Because it takes everybody to pull it off.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I know you guys sent a bunch of people through our Lean Practitioner certification program and you know, it's just investing in people like that and then they come out the other end and they're, they're, they're full of fire.

Right.

Like ready to go and, and, and, and to invoke change and then you just say I got to get out of their way at that point. Really.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. So the more we can bring in everybody's, everybody's hearts and their minds to just, just be, keep everybody rolling in the same direction. That's really powerful.

Really powerful.

And honestly, I think people want to do that. People want to be a part of something. Right? I mean, yeah, they want to feel like they matter and their efforts matter, and it's meaningful. And that's the reality of our situation, is we need them. We need everybody.

Yep. Yep. What's the hardest part of. Of. Of your job as CEO?

Wow, that's a great question. I think the hardest part in my job as CEO is trying to figure out what the right pace of growth is, because there's always an opportunity to improve or to grow. And we could burn good people out by trying to go too far too fast. And I think that that's what I'm hopeful that we can continue to learn as we grow in our lean practice, is that we can grow in a more sustainable and thoughtful way. And I feel like in me as CEO, I see a lot of opportunity for us to grow. I see a lot of opportunity for us to get better. And that, that trying to temper that is. Is a little bit, you know, prioritize and temper that is a little bit. That's a challenge to me because I want to. I want to go for all of it, you know.

Well, you're a sales guy, man, right? I mean, for real. I mean, because if you have a CEO who's like, I got a finance background, they got a bias. You got somebody that's a salesperson and a strong sales background, you got a bias. Right. And so I can imagine how difficult it is for you with a sales background to, you know, say, hey, slow and steady wins the race, or something like that.

Right, right. And I. And I've, you know, it's been, you know, really, you know, wanting to go fast. But what I'm learning is, you know, hey, if you want it, there's an African proverb that I like that says, if you want to go fast, go alone, and if you want to go far, go together. We're learning how to do together better, you know, and we're getting faster at doing together better. And that's. I feel like embracing that has been really helpful for our organization, you know, just to. Just to be able to do thoughtful improvements consistently. It produces way more fruit than going fast, and you end up, you know, with not yielding all the fruit that you could with a fast harvest.

So when you were a 10, $10 million company many, many years ago, did you ever imagine at that point, if you can remember, that you'd be a hundred million dollar company someday?

To be honest, no, I didn't think that was. We, we. In 2007, we. We set out to be a $50 million company. We thought that was gonna be the most Epic of all accomplishments. It was a big, hairy, audacious goal that we set out. And, you know, you put it on the board and you think that's. How could we just imagine if we could ever achieve that? And that was really compelling to our people because it gave us. Everybody thought that that was a big, huge deal, you know, and so to blow through that has been really fun, you know, and you realize you don't know what you. Which, why can't you do that thing that could be done? It's really, it's affected the way we think about our future because now we don't know what we can't do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and it's like growth. Like, you know, you are going to grow unless you. Well, it's kind of like I, I am, I'm a big believer. Like, you know, in the Six Sigma framework, there's dmaic and C stands for control. Like, I'm of the opinion you can't control anything. It's either getting better or it's getting worse. Your choice. Right. And so in your case, you, you are going to grow or you're going to decline. Right. And you know how fast you grow. That's maybe that's, that's what you were talking about earlier, like controlling that growth so it doesn't get out of, out of, out of, out of line with what we can do, because then it will decline. Right. So I suppose that's the, that's the dance. Right?

Right. Yeah. Healthy things grow and they get more complex, and then you gotta figure out how to streamline that complexity so you can grow some more.

Yeah.

And, you know, that's, it's, it's. That's what I really appreciate about our, our lean problem solving and our Gemba training is a lot of the practices that we have now on the daily are so much different than they were five years ago, and so much more of it is objective. We have actual data now that we're looking at. Instead of asking somebody what they think we should do, we're looking at what does the data tell us or what is our process tell us we need to do in this moment based on these conditions? And it's so much more clear and transparent and helpful and actionable.

So to wrap things up, I want you to speak to the. I normally would say speak to the other CEOs out there, you know, and give them some advice, which is fine, but I want you to speak because it's always. I find it so inspiring that, you know, you started this thing Six people, you know, salesperson coming in, you know, just trying to sell some boards. Like I said, now you're running $100 million company. I want you to talk to the people listening right now who are, you know, maybe they're just kind of at the beginning of their career, and they have no idea what the future holds. Like, speak some words of encouragement to them and, you know, to. To give them some dreams of what they could. What they could be one day.

Oh, that's such a great thank you, friend, for teeing up. Because I would say this to person just starting their career out there. Dream big. And don't ever underestimate the influence that you could have in whatever organization you're a part of. And anything worth doing is worth not doing well at first. You know, you just got to get started and just go for it. And don't think about yourself as we. Don't think about yourself as small. Don't think about yourself as you don't have all those things that you don't have, because there's what you could be or can be, that is the real thing to focus on. You can be better. You can be a victorious leader. And in any scope of any industry, I actually believe that. That somebody who sets out to get better every day will actually gain so much influence in their organization, no matter where you start. Because it's rare in the world that people look at themselves in that way, and people tend to have a small view of themself. And the fact is, people use only about 8% of their potential. And if you can embrace the fact that you have so much more to offer the world than maybe what you think you have, if you can embrace the fact that maybe you have a lot to offer and maybe you can learn and grow, and if you do that, oh, boy, opportunities will come your way. No question about that. And because that's what people want, customers want to hear, that you'll learn to do what they want to have done. But if you tell them, here's what you get, they might not want that. And that same for your boss, that same for your spouse, that same for any relationship that you ever have. If you go into it with a open mind and heart and a passion to learn, you will get better, and people will love that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing I appreciate about you, Clint, is you just got such a positive energy about you, man. You know, it's. And I'm sure even if you're having a bad day, you probably find a way to spin it positive or something. I don't know.

Well, every day you learn something new. That is. No, that is for sure.

Yeah.

You know, there are. Hey, every, Every, Every. Every rose has its thorn. And every. Everybody's got bumps in the road. They got overcome. But that's just, that's just life, you know, if you can embrace that and grow through that, boy, what can't you do, you know?

Yeah. Hey, if people want to connect with you, Clint, directly, or your company, what's the best way?

Hardwoodlumber.net that is our company's website and that's a great way to see what we're doing and what we're up to. You know, that's probably the best way for people to see, see what's happening. And, you know, we're, we're, we're going to keep doing what we set out to do. And I'm thankful for your partnership, Ron, for your vision that started many years ago. You didn't intend for this moment to happen. You didn't specifically set out, you know, when you created the Gemba Academy to be here today. But I'm thankful for your faithfulness to your dream. And I'm going to do the same at McDonald and on. And, you know, we're just going to keep, keep cheering each other on to do.

Yeah.

And be better. And so thank you for that.

Oh, man, my pleasure, man. And yeah, we're just, just getting started. My man. Both of us.

That's right. The best is yet to come.

Yes. All right, man. I appreciate you, Clint.

Take care. You stay cool, buddy.

All right, bye.

Okay, bye.

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