GA 534 | Leadership and The Virtue of Magnanimity with Ricky Shoop

And I'm sure we all have examples of coaches or teachers, maybe some bosses who seem to embody something that really made us want to be better, to be great.

Today I am very excited to welcome my friend Ricky Shute to the show. Now, I have known Ricky for many, many years and he's just one of my favorite. He's, he's actually studying right now to be a professional counselor. So he's, he's got a background, he'll explain his background, but he's, he's done things like youth ministry in the past and computer science degree. I mean, he's a very diverse dude. Okay, but he's just got a fantastic heart. And today we talk about a topic that we for sure have never covered on the Gemba Academy podcast, and that is the idea or the virtue of magnanimity. Okay, so first of all, if, if you're not quite sure what magnanimity is, don't worry, we're going to define it in the beginning and explain what does it mean and what is this so called magnanimous leader all about. And so really what we talk about then is how the idea or the virtue of magnanimity relates to leadership and why being magnanimous is a, is a very, very good thing. And we also go into like, when you're faced with difficult situations, you're facing conflict or resistan or whatever it might be. And for those of us in continuous improvement, we know that's probably every day. Okay, like, well then how does being magnanimous help? What can we do to sort of overcome those tough situations? And finally, towards the end was probably my favorite, we talked about the idea or the relationship between forgiveness and magnanimity, and man, it was so good. Anyhow, I think you're going to enjoy this one. I know I enjoyed recording it. Whether it show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 534. Again, gembapodcast.com, look for episode 534. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Ricky, welcome to the show. How are you?

Hey, Ron, I'm doing great. How are you? Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, man, so well, we've known each other a long time and it's super cool to have you on as a podcast guest, man. I know, and we've had a lot of coffee talks and over at the house talking and solving all the world's problems, but oh yeah, it's, it's fun to, to have you on the podcast. So where are you calling in from, Ricky?

Yeah, so we're actually outside of Columbus, Ohio right now. Little town called Sunbury.

Okay. All right, all right, good. Well, you know how we like to get things started out of the gate, Ricky. We like to begin with a quote. So what do you got?

Yeah, so I feel like it's almost cliche, but I'm a huge Stephen Covey fan and he has a quote that I think about a lot. He says without input, there is no buy in. And I've just found that to be incredibly true. In a lot of different circumstances, if people don't have some sense of input and that's going to look different. Right. That's not to supersede leadership or anything like that. But typically if people don't have input, they don't buy into something as much either. So I think there's some, some good themes in that for today also.

Yeah, so when you volunteer someone, you know, they're not going to necessarily be real excited about that.

Totally. Yeah. You know, I think originating an idea and having your feedback heard by a leader, it just promotes something psychologically where you feel more invested in the thing. Even if, even if someone doesn't go with your idea, just having that opportunity to, to really be heard out, I think can be powerful.

Yeah, I like it. I like it. All right, well, hey Ricky, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about, about your background and what you're up to these days and sort of what, what your goals are here because I know you're working on some cool stuff.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. It's kind of a hilarious, eclectic background, I guess, but I studied computer science with a concentration in psychology. I got my Bachelor's in 2010 from Ohio Dominican, which is here in Columbus. And pretty soon after that I actually started working in full time ministry. It was something that I, I started volunteering with for youth ministry when I was in college. I kind of came back into faith as an adult during college and really just discovered such a passion and a love for working with people directly. And so I worked in ministry for the last 10 years and right now I'm actually working on my master's degree on, for clinical mental health counseling. So I'm going to be a licensed counselor. And I like it because it's a blend of a lot of different interests and you can take it many different ways. I'm kind of like that. I'm kind of add with my interests, they're all over the place. So this is nice, a nice path that Allows for a lot of flexibility. But I'm excited. It's been super fun already, and I just love learning about human behavior and organizations and habits and the brain and all these different disciplines. I. I think it's fascinating.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so I'm really excited for today's podcast. So just a little backstory for the listeners. So I've known Ricky for, For a long time, and every so often, I'll give them a call and basically some. Maybe it's free counseling. I don't know. I've never gotten an invoice yet, but.

I don't think I'm legally allowed to charge you.

Okay. Yeah, you can't charge me. Yeah. Okay.

So we could get into trouble here, Ron.

Right, right. And so we, we were talking, and, And Ricky actually encouraged me to think about the virtue, I guess, or the idea of magnanimity. And at first I was like, wait, what is that again? But I want to act dumb, you know? Yeah, I got that, Ricky.

Oh, yeah, I was just thinking about that the other day.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And anyhow, after the. Ricky got this gift of just explaining everything so well, and I'm listening as best I could, and, and then after, I was like, oh, my gosh. So I just, I texted Ricky. I was like, listen, that was awesome. Thank you. Would you mind summarizing a little? And now, like, 30 minutes later, I get this long text. And so you know what? I did, like every smart person, I copied it, put it into a Google document, and I formatted it up a little bit. And then I was like, okay, now I got it. I've read it like, 30 times, gave it to my wife. She read it, like, 30 times. And, and so I, I, I was just thinking about that after a conversation that Ricky and I had. I was like, man, we should explore this, like, on the podcast, because this whole, this concept, this idea of the magnanimous leader is kind of what I was thinking. Or, or husband or wife or father. I mean, anything son, daughter, human being.

Right.

It's. It's so relevant. And so, so first of all, thank you for coming on to talk about that.

Yeah. I don't even remember what I said to you. I hope, I hope it was good. Sounds like it was great, but I.

Could share with the world.

Perfect.

So let's just start, though, like, with definitions. Just. Yeah, flat out, like, when we say magnanimity, like, it's even hard to say, but what is it? Like, if you were to define it, like, what is it?

Yeah, So I love starting with definitions, I feel like that's always a great place to start. And the dictionary definition is loftiness of spirit, enabling one to bear trouble calmly, to disdain meanness and pettiness, and to display a noble generosity. So, you know, I actually feel like most people have not heard of magnanimity, but most people would. Would be familiar with, like, magnanimous. Right. The. In its adjective form. Like, oh, he's a magnanimous person. Not that we use that on a daily basis, but. So that'd be like a dictionary definition. And the etymology of the word comes from two words. Magnus, which means great, and anima, which means soul or spirit. So to be magnanimous is to have a great soul or great spirit. So, I mean, it's. It's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, there's several things in there, like, just the whole idea of kind of maintaining your cool. Right. And not. Not getting angry quickly, being quick to rash, to judgment, and, you know, those are the things that, like, I. I struggle with. Like, I think all human beings do is just sort of losing your cool, really, for lack of a better word, you know, And. Yeah, so I guess as it relates to leadership, like, how do you see this whole idea of magnanimity relating? Is there. What about, like, how does it. Is there any interaction or harmony with things like empathy, integrity, resilience? Like what? Like what. How does it fit in?

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think it's. It's such a. It's a virtue. It's a virtue for everyone. And not just leaders, but especially leaders should exemplify magnanimity. And for whatever reason, this image comes to my mind of, you know, if you're, like, in a pool and somebody's got this inflatable ball, and you, like, see how far down to the bottom of the pool you can push this ball, but the ball always shoots back up to the top.

Yeah.

So I think of magnanimity, this great spirit, as being this thing that always rises back up because we're humans, and so, you know, we're not talking about something that we're going to do perfectly. It's not something I do perfectly. It's not something you do perfectly, but, like, other virtues, it's something that we're striving for. It's an ideal that we're trying to implement on. And as it relates very appropriately with your company and with your podcast, that. That idea resonates with continual improvement of yourself as a person. And so those. Those wonderful qualities of empathy and integrity and resilience are so resonant with magnanimity, it's kind of like, it's kind of like an attribute that makes all other attributes even better. It's like this accelerator.

Yeah, yeah. So like, when you. Even when we think about, you know, the cardinal virtues, those hinge virtues, as they say, of prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude, like, I suppose the magnanimous person then is going to, when they're, when they need to be prudent, they're going to be very prudent.

Right.

They're going to be not, I want to say extra prudent, but it's going to be amplified. Maybe that's the word that you used. And to be, to be great at, at practicing those, those, those four virtues.

Is that. Yeah.

Does that sound right?

Yeah, I think, you know, that, that, that idea of the antonym being not petty. Right. We're not concerned with petty things or we're not sucked into petty things, I think is maybe a better way of saying it's. It's not that we're aloof from any concerns, but there's a sort of wisdom of knowing what is worthy of our energy and even our emotional investment. You know, I was reading through the ten Commandments of continuous improvement on your website, and I love the idea of solving problems and not people. I think that would be, that would track really well with being magnanimous is being someone who has the vision of getting sucked into problem solving, not getting sucked into squabbles.

Yeah.

Having a, having a bigger vision, a greater vision of any situation, Seeing the big picture, entering into the small details without losing the greater vision.

Yeah, yeah. Now, can you think of any examples of leaders that practice the, this virtue of, of magnanimity.

Yeah, totally. You know, I think there's probably a lot of good historic figures, but I'll just speak of someone who. I go back to their example often. When I was in college, I had a supervisor. I was working at the computer help desk as a computer science student, and I worked at the help desk for our school. And our supervisor, Juan was a former student, had graduated several years prior. Young guy, and I would describe him as a magnanimous leader. Here we were, these students, you know, and most work study jobs are a joke, right? They call it work study because you sit at the desk at the gym, you know, and you basically do all your homework and someone needs a basketball, you hand them a basketball. But our job was a little different, and I think it had a lot to do with Juan. He engaged us, I would say, higher than, maybe even what the Job actually was. He took us seriously in a way that, you know, you got a college student, they're just trying to get some side income. He really took us under his wing. He. He held us accountable. He gave us real responsibility. But he also accompanied us with that. He would show us what to do, and then he would expect us to do that. And it was a great balance of high expectation and high support. And we really felt like we were staff. We really felt like we were employees, and not just filling a space, not just answering a call, but really being engaged. And he did it with such a good disposition that it always felt winsome. And even if he corrected us, I would say it felt like it was in the spirit of raising us up higher. And so that. That leads me to think, like, well, he was a magnanimous person, because he. What did he do? He drew us up to be better. And I'm sure we all have examples of coaches or teachers, maybe some bosses who seem to embody something that really made us want to be better, to be great, whatever it is, you know, something big or something small.

You mentioned winsome. Talk a little bit about that.

Yeah. To be winsome is to get a little philosophical. To be winsome is to recognize that another person has freedom. And I have to respect that freedom. And so I can't just go around making people do stuff. I have to win them over. I have to convince them. And that's not a bad thing. I think that's a great thing. It actually acknowledges the dignity of other people. It acknowledges their free will, you know, to go back to our. My. My quote at the beginning. It recognizes that I need to have some avenue of input for this person, for them to buy in. And so I have to be winsome. And. And so being winsome is definitely tied to being magnanimous. It's. It's understanding, first of all, that my example is probably the most crucial first step. If I'm not embodying what I'm talking about, people are going to know. People are. People know when leaders are being fake. Right. They put up posters that say teamwork, and they don't care what your thoughts are at all. That there is no teamwork happening. It's the leader. And what's the. I feel like there's a. There's a term for that, I think, that Jim Collins uses. It's like the genius with the 500 idiots or workers or whatever it is. Right. It's just not winsome. You're not engaging people at their highest capacity.

Yeah.

And I feel like in the end, it actually negatively affects an organization. You're not engaging people at their best and you're not going to get the best from them either, you know, does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. It does. So now I'm wondering though, let's say we're leading people, we're leading teenagers, whatever it might be, in our house. In our house, or, you know, raising a family or anything like that. And we comic, you know, there's, there's challenges, right? There's, there's, there's issues, there's conflict, there's drama, there's all these things. So what can, what can we do as human beings who are fallen and fallible? You know, we all are. How can we cultivate a mindset of magnanimity when we are in, you know, the trenches and when we're, we're in the dirt sometimes and it's just ugly and difficult, but yet we need to have greatness of souls. Like, what do we do? Like, how can we navigate that?

Yeah, that is an awesome question. It's. I think it first of all takes two things. It takes vision and it takes intentionality. There has to be a vision for this. And maybe that vision is just hearing what magnanimity is and thinking, I want that. I want to be that. Maybe vision is seeing a wonderful example. Maybe it's a one of your parents, maybe it's a sibling of yours. Maybe again, it's a coach or a teacher, someone that. You saw their example, you saw them maybe go through a hard thing and they just seem to maintain some kind of sense of peace, some kind of sense of keeping their head above water, not perfectly right. You know, there's not an expectation that, oh, well, if you ever lost your temper, you're not magnanimous. And, you know, people shouldn't follow your example. We're not talking about perfection here amongst ourselves. We're just talking about something that creates a vision for you. So I'm a big believer in, in taking time to, to pray, to reflect, to meditate on these kinds of aspirations. We, we have to step away from. What was the terminology used? The, the fray, the trenches, you know? Yeah, you've got to step away to get this vision, you know, because when you're in the middle of it, that's when you've got to be. That's when you're putting it to the test. Yeah, but I think it starts even before that. It starts with intentional deep reflecting. It takes some real self knowledge. And again, in that theme of, of continual Improvement, it takes a willingness to change ourselves, you know, to, to be really honest. Like I have not been magnanimous with my kids. Right. I keep losing my temper. Okay. So in order for me to solve that, there's probably going to be some work that I need to do outside of that situation with my kids. So I think self reflection is, it's got to be then and we in probably similar to a lot of things that you guys teach. It's got to be, it's got to be a continual improvement. It's got to be looking at small things that I could do. You know, if, if I'm having trouble separating myself from a, some drama at work, you know, I, I've got to go back and I've got to look, what is this habit that I keep falling into?

Yeah.

Okay. And now how do I foster a habit that kind of takes me the other direction? What is the opposite habit? I keep, I keep getting pulled into this. I don't like that, you know, that's not my value. Do I have values?

Yeah.

Set aside and identified.

Yeah.

Because that's what we're talking about is being a values based person. It's being. If I could use Stephen Covey's language again, I think it really means being proactive and not simply reacting all the time. And it's a, it's a, it's a process. Yeah. It happens over time.

Yeah. There's this framework that we, we use in our continuous improvement community. We call it scientific thinking. And, and sort of like the idea is you make a plan or identify what your next step or your experiment is going to be and you make a prediction like, what do you think is going to happen? And then you do it. You do the thing or you run the experiment and then you see what actually happened and then you reflect, what did I learn? When you compare what actually happened to what you predicted, then there's learning. So I could almost see us doing the same thing here, saying, okay, when my, you know, teenage kid triggers me the next time, here's my plan. Right. This is what I'm gonna do.

Yeah.

And in fact, this is what I think is gonna happen if I do that. And then when it happens, try to run the plan. Right. And then see what actually happened and see what you learn. So really, to your point, we're going to have to practice this, right? We're going to have to practice magnanimity. And you know, any habit begins with taking some steps and doing the thing right, Whether it's flossing your teeth or eating healthy or going to bed on time or, you know, any kind of habit that you want to build you. It starts with just a simple step and, and, and then reflecting on, on how things go. What do you think about that?

Totally. Yeah. You know, it's funny, one of the things I, I really like about entering into the field of counseling is looking at this kind of interesting situation where we train for a lot of things in life. You know, if I'm going to become a welder, I have to weld for hundreds of hours. I'm training to be a welder, to do it well, because, you know, at the end of the day, somebody is relying on my weld to be solid. If I'm crummy at that, you know, that that could put people in danger, you know, if machinery falls apart or structures collapse because of. Of crummy welding. So we train to be a welder. Why wouldn't we train to be a good dad or to be a good husband or to be a good boss or honestly, why wouldn't we train to be a good follower or just even a good participant? We're not just talking about, oh, everybody's got to be a leader all the time. There might be something to say about your own personal leading.

Right.

I think that could be true. But, you know, training to be a good listener, it takes practice. You know, why don't we train on these things more? Because they're just as critical, if not more critical in some cases than things that we do train for. So I think you're spot on with that.

Yeah. Well, now, so we've talked a lot about the individual. What about like a business can a bit. Could. Here's a weird way of asking it, could a business, could an organization be magnanimous?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think my first thought on that would be a good business is composed of good individuals.

Yeah.

And not only good individuals, but probably also good processes, you know? Yeah. So that combination, if you're going to be great magnanimous, has to be do with being great. You've got to have great individuals and you've got to have great processes. You've got to have people that are of high character, people that are genuine, people that actually care.

Yeah.

And you've got to be effective. You've got to have great ideas, You've got to have a great product or a great service, and you've got to deliver it in a great way. So that would be my first thought is that, you know, it's a Just like the health of a body has a lot to do with the health of all, the way down to, you know, individual organs and. And then zooming down even more to individual cells. You know, are your cells healthy? If they are, it's going to promote greater holistic health of the whole body. So if you have great people, you're on your way, and you marry that with great processes. And I think that that does lead to a magnanimous organization.

I love it. I love it. All right, I want to change gears just a little bit now, so something that you and I had. Have talked about a little bit in the past, but what about concepts like forgiveness? You know, he's even in a. In a business world, you know, there's times to where people wrong us or whatever it might be, and forgiveness is called for. Like, what is the relationship between the idea of magnanimity and something like forgiveness?

Yeah, I think it's a beautiful connection. I'd say, first of all, maybe there's a mistaken notion of being magnanimous, is you just don't let stuff bother you, you know, like. But I don't think that that tends to lead to the outcomes that we actually want. That. That usually is not like a successful recipe when we don't validate what we actually feel. You know, if someone makes us mad, being magnanimous doesn't mean I'm going to pretend that I'm not mad, and then I'm gonna kind of float away because I'm so great. Yeah, you don't pretend your way to it there. And there's no. There's nothing to be gained by not first being brutally honest with how you feel about the situation. And if you get hurt, you should acknowledge that. I think it's an important step of actually processing something and getting over it. I think when we don't acknowledge hurt, wherever it happens in our personal life, in our professional life, we tend to just bury it. And that's usually not a great equation because it's like your brain won't actually let you ignore that. You can tell yourself you're going to ignore something, but the brain thinks that there's a threat there. Still, it's fascinating to learn about the brain's response to trauma or traumatic events and where it holds those things. So there's really. There's a need to process. And part of relational processing has to do with forgiveness. And so I think if you're a magnanimous person, you realize that you yourself can make mistakes. You realize that other people can make mistakes. And that sort of greatness of spirit, it moves you forward. It acknowledges that there could be more in the future. And so I would be willing to bet that lack of forgiveness. This would be a super interesting study. Lack of forgiveness leads to a huge decline in productivity. I would be willing to bet that there is a connection you could make there. Yeah. I mean, think about teams that won't work with each other, and you start asking them, why don't you guys work together? And maybe you need to ask, you know, ask the why question multiple times. And then you get down to it, and it's like they said something that upset the other person.

Yeah.

And that sounds petty, but, hey, that's. That's being human. We. We have that happen, and it can affect the performance of teams. It affects the morale. So this might be an area where we need to practice. We need to practice saying, hey, I'm sorry. For my part, I shouldn't have said what I said. And, you know, we hope that someone will ask for forgiveness. Also. We may need to communicate to them and say what you said in that meeting. You know, it really. It really undermined my authority in front of the rest of the team, and I didn't appreciate that. We can say that to be magnanimous is not to be aloof. It's also not to be a doormat and to just say that things don't bother us. I think it's. Again, it's this vision of we're moving towards greatness. How does the greatness propel me through even difficult situations like this?

What do you think? Also, and it harmonizes with this a little bit the relationship between magnanimity, greatness of soul. I'm this amazing person and I can forgive and this and that, but also humility.

Yeah.

Where do you see humility in magnanimity?

Oh, totally intertwined. I. I love a book I really appreciated was Good to Great by Jim Collins. And he talks about the level 5 leader has almost a contradictory set of attributes. They have an indomitable will for greatness, like ambition, and at the same time, real, authentic personal humility. They are constantly pushing their team towards greatness. And at the same time, the successes are. You guys. You guys killed it. Like, you guys nailed it. And sharing in those successes. I think humility allows us to recognize ourselves as we truly are, our weaknesses and the stuff that makes us great. I don't buy into the idea that humility is thinking that you're junk. I think that's false humility. I think that comes across in relationships I don't. I don't think that necessarily wins people over to thinking that we're really.

Maybe it's humble. I've heard it said, humility isn't thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less often or something like that.

Yeah, I think it was CS Lewis who said that.

Okay.

No, I was going there next. You jump. Yeah, you. It's. It's. But it's beautiful. It's. And I think there's something exciting about that. I think by design, if we're just kind of focused on. In on ourselves too much, it doesn't really work. We don't really become happy. There's a certain amount of reflection that's good and that's prudent and it's necessary, and it helps us to inwardly reflect and to improve and to take care of ourselves. But taken to its excess, it really diminishes our relationships. It. It cuts things short. And frankly, it's more fun to think of ourselves less. I find that situations where I find myself lost in a project or an endeavor or an adventure are the most fun times that I've ever had in my life, you know, and that could be small things and it could be big things, it could be serious things and leisure. But usually if I get lost in those things and I'm kind of, in a sense, lost with other people, it's just. It leads to more enjoyment and. And I think it leads to, you know, at the end of the day, it leads to better results, whatever we're trying to do as well.

So maybe to wrap things up, Ricky, I wonder if we could explore some examples that you can think of, of maybe historical figures. I mean, our favorite guy I know is Jesus, and I can't think of a more magnanimous leader than him. Right. But. But what. What are some other historical figures that. That folks might be aware of who were. Had this gift of magnanimity?

Yeah. You know, I think someone who comes to mind pretty quickly would be, you know, someone like an Abraham Lincoln. Right. Who persevered through great adversity. Even. Even just maybe. Maybe this is like kind of a silly observation about him, but they say that he was kind of an ugly guy, like, very unattractive. There was. There's some anecdote about someone gave him a knife one time, and they said that someone gave this to me and said I was the ugliest person they'd ever met, and that if I met someone uglier than me, I should give this knife to them. I don't Know that story. I don't know if that story's true. I honestly don't know if it's even relevant.

We're going to get checked, Ricky.

Yeah, we are. There's going to be a notice on this. I don't even know if it's true, but anecdotally, that guy ran up against so much resistance and the. I. I think in some ways we undervalue the reality of civil war, and it's terrible nature. I mean, that is to think about there's a lot of division in our country, but to think about actually being at war and to have a leader who is magnanimous enough, who is carried by a vision enough to do what he did, I think his example is very worthy of study and imitation.

Yeah.

So he comes to mind really high at the top.

Yeah. Yeah. I've always wanted to. I know there's been a lot of good books written about him. I've always wanted to learn more about him. Maybe this will be my call to action because. Yeah, because I agree. I mean, it's a pretty fascinating set of situation that he was faced with. My gosh, you know.

Totally.

Yeah. Yeah.

Actually, another great illustration of magnanimity. This is kind of an interesting example, but I love it and I think about it a lot. I was having dinner with a. A guy who is a retired police officer in Oregon, and we were just having a conversation about, you know, living out your faith in the workplace and as a police officer. And I was just asking him for, you know, what. What did that look like for you as a police officer? And he said, well, one. One thing stands out. This. This story of I was actually arresting this guy and I had him in handcuffs. I put him in the back of the car, and he looked at me and he said, thank you. And I was like, what? Thank you. What. What do you mean? You know, I just arrested you. And he said, just the way that you have interacted with me has acknowledged my dignity and thank you. And I was kind of blown away. I thought that was amazing, you know, and I think goes right in line with this idea that magnanimity is not just being aloof or not enforcing something that needs to be enforced. Magnanimity is the way that we carry ourselves.

Yeah.

In a way that other people feel and recognize.

I know something that you and I've also talked about in the past when we were talking about this is that the magnanimous person is also sort of. What's the word? Like, people are drawn to them. So if you're trying to move them towards virtue or something like that. They. You model it yourself, and you're an attractive example of what you want them to be. You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, totally. I've had a lot of conversations with people and they. I've worked with a lot of parents over the years. You know, I. I worked in youth ministry for quite a. Quite a while, and I'd have conversations with parents and they would ask, you know, how do I get my kid to do this or that? And I'm like, well, are you. Are you doing it yourself? Are you exemplifying that first? And then are you being winsome? Are you exemplifying what you want them to. To emulate? And are you doing it in a way that's actually attractive, or are you making them turned off by it? You know, think about your own life. The people that you look up to, what are their attributes? One of their attributes is that how they hold themselves is attractive to you. You want to be like them. You want to be the way that they are. And so that's a powerful force, and that's just hardwired into us to look for that and to follow that.

Yeah. Good stuff. Wow. So this has been a lot of fun, Ricky. I really appreciate you coming on. Whatever.

Maybe.

What kind of final words of wisdom do you have for. For those that are listening that wanna. They want to be more magnanimous? Like what. What are some practical tips that you could leave them?

Yeah, well, I think it's. It's an intentional decision. Virtue is not just something that you're born with or you're not born with. I think certain people might naturally be better at some virtues than others. But I do believe that with practice, we can all become great. We can all identify something that we need to work on. And with real intentionality, with humility, and with the help of others, too, I think we can. We can do it. We can succeed. We can overcome something that feels like it will never change. There's something in counseling that one of the greatest things that we can instill in a client is simply a sense of hope that things can be better. Because if people have hope, they'll put in the effort. If they don't have hope, they might just despair. They might just give up. And really, you only lose if you stop trying. If you're not pushing forward.

Yeah, 100%. All right. Well, I normally ask people, oh, what's your social media things? And Ricky is one of the wisest people that I know, and you will not find him on social media. So good for you, my man. If you want to get a hold of Ricky, email me ronbaacademy.com and I, I will connect. Connect you directly with Ricky that way or something like that.

That's awesome. I was, I was telling my wife that. I was like, what, what do I tell him at the end here? And I was like, should I just give my. Where can Rick, where can people find you? And I was like, should I just tell them my address? That's where they can find me.

Yeah, come over.

We'll have a cup of coffee, we'll hang out, right?

Yeah, if you're in Columbus area, man, look him up, right?

That'd be great. Yeah, sounds awesome.

All right, well, hey, man, I appreciate you, Ricky. Keep up the great work and I can't wait to our next conversation.

Yeah, thanks for having me on. This was a lot of fun. Good to see you, Ron.

All right, take care.

Thank you.

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