GA 540 | The Space Between Leading and Following with Chris Fuzie

You are not just a leader, you are not just a follower. So you have to balance those two roles. And so like you're talking about with feedback, you end up giving feedback to other people. You should also be good at receiving that feedback. As an exemplary follower, you should be able to do that.

Today I'm excited to welcome Chris Fusey to the show. Now, Chris has a really interesting and diverse background. So he's got 28 years of service with the Modesto Police Department, where he did a variety of jobs, including just a traffic cop, all the way up to working in really advanced homicide and different types of things like that. So saw a lot, did a lot. And he then got into really studying deeply organizational leadership. In fact, he went on to get a doctorate in organizational leadership as he kept learning about it and just wanted to keep going. And so now he actually does some consulting and he works with a DA's office and some businesses and HR type stuff, but just again, a really diverse background. But today we explore a book that he. That he wrote called Liminal Space. And basically what we're going to talk about is sort of that. That space, that liminal space between leading and following. So in between there, there's this space and sometimes we're leading, sometimes we'. And. And that really goes for anybody, I would argue, because most of us are leading, you know, whether it's in family or, you know, within your community or at work. But many of us are also followers. I would say all of us are followers in some ways. And so that liminal space, like, how do you optimize that space? Then he gets into a topic that we for sure have never talked about and on the podcast, and that is this whole concept of tessellation. And, well, I'm not going to go too deep into it, but needless to say, tessellation is a really interesting topic that I think has tremendous parallels to what we're trying to do with continuous improvement. So, anyhow, you'll have to listen to hear Chris explain what it all means. And I haven't read the book yet, a little space, but I definitely want to. So we're going to link everything up in the show notes. So scroll down on the app, whatever you're listening to, and go check out that book and then be sure to. To connect with Chris on the various social media platforms. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Chris, welcome to the show. How's it going?

It's going great. Thank you for letting me be here. I appreciate it.

Yeah, man, I'M really excited as we, before we hit record, I was telling you I was listening to some previous episodes that you've done with folks and I'm really excited because I think this is going to be a really cool sort of, I don't know, complimentary discussion with the folks that primarily listen to this podcast or we're into something called Lean and Six Sigma, continuous improvement sort of thing.

So.

But you know, in the end, it's all, it's all about leadership, right. And correct and working and collaborating with people. So. Yeah, really good. So. So, Chris, right out of the gate, we like to have our guests share a quote, so I'm wondering if you got one.

I do, as a matter of fact. This is from the Courageous Follower by Irish and he says it's the paradox of followership. We are responsible whether we lead or follow. We are responsible for our own actions and we share responsibility for the actions of those whom we can influence. If you think about that quote, it's all about behavior. It's about our responsibility to ourselves, our responsibility to others that we can, whether we're leading or following. It's not about leading or falling. It's about the behavior and influencing that behavior. That's why I read this book I don't know how many times. And that quote just keeps getting more and more significant to me.

Yeah, love it. Good stuff. All right, well Chris, tell us a little bit about about yourself. Tell us about your background and how you got into your current line work and what that current line of work is.

Well, so currently what I'm doing is I have two, I say two different jobs. I work for a district attorney's office and elected officials office as a HR and business manager. And then I also have my own consulting company and I do leadership consulting. And with that leadership consulting, I do some writing with behavior based leadership. How I got here is more accidental than anything else. Okay, so I was a cop for 28 years. I went from, you know, writing parking tickets the very first day writing parking tickets to being in charge of the homicide on the day I retired. Homicide, gangs, hostage negotiation, street level, drug team, that kind of stuff. So went from parking tickets to all the high speed, low drag kind of stuff and just about everything in between. So yeah, but about halfway through my career I had one lieutenant, we're sitting in the briefing room and one lieutenant, he's talking about how you want, what do you want to be, you know, where do you want to go? And I was just having fun. I like to say I had just one Ph.D. public high school diploma, you know, and I was doing really well with that, but I was approaching 40, seeing a lot of my friends and co workers maybe get hurt or have something else happen with them, and so they have to find a new career. Well, I didn't want to just, like, do background investigations or, you know, private eye or that kind of stuff. So I went back to school. And this one lieutenant looks around one day, and we're talking a briefing, and he kind of looks, kind of leans his head to one side, and he says, for those of you who want to promote, you probably should think about your education. And it was like he shot a bullet in the back of my brain. And it just kept rolling around and I kept thinking, education, education, education. So I went back to school. I got my AA degree, then I went to a bachelor program for organizational leadership. And I started realizing that a lot of the stuff in this org leadership had to do with what I was living, what I was working, you know, in the working world. And so I started looking at that. I finished the bachelor's degree, went immediately into the master's program, and again, just started seeing all of this stuff in the org leadership world that was applicable and not just the police department, but in every organization. And so I started using some of that stuff. Well, at about the same time I finished the master's degree, International association of Chiefs of Police was starting up a leadership program, and Modesto pd, where I was working, wanted to start that program. So we got the program started. About the third class, I realized that the instructor that we had wasn't. Didn't really know what he was talking about because he was saying some things that I knew were completely wrong based on my education. And so I talked to iacp, we reevaluated that instructor. He ended up. I ended up eventually teaching that class for Modesto PD. And yeah, I taught it for about three years. And then in 2010, is the city said, hey, you know, because of the financial crisis, we'll give you extra money if you go away. And so I said, I'm in. I'll do that. So. So I retired. The first. The last day that that this extra money was eligible was the first day that I could retire. So the stars had aligned. Yeah, so that'. So I said, I gotta do that. And my wife was very supportive. She said, go for it. Do whatever you want. Well, I started my consulting business. I started a leadership consulting business, continued to teach for IACP for a couple years, and the rest is history. I mean, I just Kept working with the leadership consulting company, the same one I'm doing now. And, yeah, started. And then I started that. Then they open up this doctoral program in organizational leadership. Well, I got to do that. So. So I put myself back into school. You know, this is what, eight years. Eight years after getting the master's degree, put myself back into school in a doctoral program for organizational leadership. And during that day, doing that doctoral program is when I started looking at doing some of the writing. Because, I mean, you have to write a dissertation. You're basically writing a book anyway, so I started looking at the writing, and that gave me a lot of the tools for doing the writing. So. So I started doing the writing. That's where I wrote the first book, because why? Understanding Behavior and Exigencies. And then about three years later, I wrote the second book, which is Score Performance Counseling, which is what I was studying. That's. That was what my dissertation was going to be on until the chair of the entire doctoral program comes to me. He says, chris, we would like you to do a certain. It's called a thematic dissertation. So you do it with other people. Right. And so we looked at how to create common ground with all sorts of different kind of leaders. And because my background's law enforcement, and they knew that they wanted somebody who could do it with law enforcement, so I did mine with police chiefs. And then we had bank presidents. Oh, all sorts of people. Mayors. Yeah. So there's 10 of us that did that. And then from that, they ended up doing a meta analysis of that data. And we came up with six different things that helped create common ground. So, yeah, it was very cool. So anyway, I took all the research that I've been doing in the coursework and turn it into a book that was Score Performance Counseling. And then this last book was based on a lot of the things that. As followership starts to emerge, I started looking at followership. That's where this quote is so important. Followership starts to emerge as being a little more important. And I start looking at followership right about 2017, 2018, and then seeing how followership is really. I mean, if you think about it, it's not opposite of leadership. It's not anti. You have to have followers to have leadership. And I've been teaching followership since 2007 when I started with ICP, and it finally clicked that followership is really what we need to focus on. And then that morphed into leadership and followership being together, and that they. They really. And then I started looking at, well, Wait a minute. What about the people who lead and follow simultaneously is. When I went back to work here at the DA's office. I have to lead 165 people, but I have to follow what my DA wants. So how do you do that? And then you start looking at all these people who lead and follow together. Right? So that's kind of how I got to where I'm at. So I'm sorry for the long.

No, no, that's it. The most recent book, I believe, is called Liminal Space.

Is that right? Liminal Space. Correct. Okay.

So, I mean, sort of launches me into my first question. I wanted to. To just really ask you about that whole idea, this whole concept of. Of liminal space. Like, first of all, like, what is it? And then how does that relate to. To leadership?

Right? So liminal just means transition. You're in a transition state. So if you think of a caterpillar. Caterpillar turning into a butterfly, right? It goes into its cocoon and it basically becomes like a jelly, and then it comes out as a butterfly. And so that's that. This is from biology, the liminal part. But when you think of liminal as transitional, and in this space, then you apply it to human behavior and leadership. You have people like me who are in a liminal space where I have to lead and follow at the same time. So it's not about the position whether I'm leading or whether I'm following. It's more about the behavior that's getting done in that space. So when we talk about a liminal space, you're in a position where you have to lead and follow at the same time, and you really don't have a choice. So you're kind of, I used to say, stuck in that space, but most of us choose those positions. So when you're in that liminal space, you. You get direction from above or you have. You have to give direction below. That has to be congruent. It has to be. It has to be the same way that you're leading or following. So that's where that comes from. And. And I specifically applied it to those people that lead and follow at the same time.

So is there a way to sort of optimize, I don't know, for lack of a better word, what you do in that liminal space or how you go about it?

Yes. So. So here's the thing, is that if you're concerned about doing the same thing, whether you're. As a leader. Right. Well, am I. Am I. Am I being honest? As a leader or am I being, you know, whatever. You come up with all sorts of things. Am I empowering? Am I empathetic? Do, am I showing purpose or problem solving? Whether you're doing it as a leader, you shouldn't have to think about am I doing this as a leader or as a follower? And focus on the behavior so the way to make it better or. Yeah, I know a lot of the listeners are the lean sigma. Lean six Sigma six. Right. So you know, you're always trying to get rid of waste and maximize the efficiency, etc. Don't worry about those. And then what you do is you create behaviors or you identify the behaviors that you want in your, your liminal. I call them liminal leaders because it's too hard to say liminal leader followers. So I just stuck with one. You know, in the people that are in the liminal space, if you focus on the behaviors, the behaviors that you want, that's where you're gonna, you're gonna cut out all this extra stuff, you know, you think about. I'll just give you an example. So how many do you, do you know, anybody's mission statement or vision statement or you know, how many people remember that stuff? Yeah, maybe, maybe 5%. Right. And, and it's hard to remember what the goals are and all the other stuff. But if you can remember three things, you can remember three behaviors. Ethical. Let's say I'm looking at a list that 86 behaviors or traits of great leaders and exemplary followers in that list. Let's say humble, ethical and proactive. Right. If you can identify that for your upper C suite people and then you look at your, your mid manager kind of people and you pick a couple other behaviors that you want them to be. Not only are these behaviors easy to remember, you don't have to remember a whole mission statement. You don't have to remember all that stuff. You remember three behaviors. Not only are those behaviors that you can remember and say we're going to be whatever now, it's something you can actually live. You can actually remember. You could teach it. And if you can teach it, you can rate it. If you could read, you know, you can evaluate all that stuff. So that's, that's kind of where that comes in. And, and it moves into the, the tessellation idea.

Yeah, I want to get to that.

Okay.

One thing that popped in my mind when you were describing this liminal space is interviewed, interviewed a gentleman, been a month or so ago and was talking about the, the whole idea of feedback in this case. And so like being able to give good feedback to others, but the importance of being a good receiver of feedback. So I feel like that's very similar to what you were describing. Like, to be good at giving feedback, you should be good at receiving feedback, right?

Yeah. And that, that's one of the things about in the being in the liminal space is that you, you are not just a leader, you are not just a follower. Right? So you have to balance those two roles. And so like you're talking about with feedback, you end up giving feedback to other people. You should also be good at receiving that feedback as a follower, as an exemplary follower, you should be able to do that.

So, yeah, it was really interesting. So I know that you've done a lot of work, Chris, in just sort of like studying the whole science of leadership. And I'm curious if there's any insights or anything that you've seen that maybe is, I don't know, changing over time or what have you learned as you've dug into that whole idea of leadership.

So, and if you looked on my LinkedIn and some of the other things that I post, you'll see that I always, I tend to say on there that leadership is changing, it's evolving. Right? Just like everything hopefully is evolving, otherwise we get stuck back in the 1800s, you know, so leadership is evolving, and what it's evolving to is including followers. So there's this idea, this mental schema that we have that leadership is more important than followership. And if you look on, do a Google search, you'll get millions and billions of things for leadership. You do a Google search for followership, you may get several hundred thousand and. But what's happening is there's this growing group that's studying leadership, and what they're finding is just like what I did, is that it's more about the behaviors of leading and following. It's not so much about the position or the psychological stuff about leadership. It's more about the behaviors. And if you can get the behaviors, that's what they're doing. So there's a big push towards followership. Even the Great Britain center for Leadership Studies, I think that's what it's called. They're doing a big push on followership for the same thing. They're looking at the behaviors of leaders. And although they don't call it liminal, leaders, like what I've identified in my book, and I just got a request yesterday to have a copy of my book put in their library. So I was Stoked about that. But, but this idea that followership is, is important because the military's changing how they do things. A lot of companies are changing how they do things. I had a very interesting discussion with one of the. A crew member and a helicopter crew, and he's in the back, and the pilots are in the front. And the pilots are, you know, officers in the, in the Navy. This is a Navy setup. The pilots are officers in the Navy, and the crew member in the back's enlisted. So the crew member in the back is, Is, you know, are they as important? I mean, they're, they're. Can the. And the crew member said, look, if, depending on the mission, I may tell the pilots what to do because I have situational knowledge in, in, in what's happening in the field, right? And so I have to tell the pilots what to do. But the pilots, you know, may have to, they have to control the helicopter. And he says, in, in the mission, there is no. Or in the. What. How do you say it? In the hilo, there is no rank. We all re. You know, we all do what we have to do. What's, what's important is getting the mission done. And so you think about that, and here's this. It might be an E5 telling officers what they're supposed to do. I mean, how often does that happen in the military? Right? So, you know, you don't think about it until it becomes operational. And in that operational thing, if we can eliminate some of these rank kind of things, then that's where we start getting things a little more. You know, they, they become, they're better, they're operating better, they're, they're leaner. I mean, I don't know how else. Yeah, they've done better. So I think followership is where we're headed with that. Okay. And focusing on followership. And I'm going to be attending the International Leadership Associations. They're having a meeting next month about what is the next 25 years of leadership look like? And I'm going to go and I'm going to be beating the drum saying, it's behavior, it's about behavior, it's behavior based. We need to think about followership, leadership as, as one. And it's behavior based. So we need to think about behaviors. So I think that's where we're headed.

Okay, very interesting. Now, you mentioned earlier just a few minutes ago, the, the, the, the topic or the concept of tessellation. So I, I know a little bit about it. Like, I know you can, like Fit triangles together and, you know, you could fill up a square with triangles. Right. Or hexagons or something like that, or squares. Really?

Correct.

So what's that got to do with. With leadership and, and behaviors?

Okay, so aside from the math aspect, which I always try to stay away from.

Okay, right.

I mean, if you look around in nature and art and architecture, we have tessellations. All tessellations are. Is a repeating pattern. Okay. So the math part of it is that you have regular tessellations, which are triangles, squares, and hexagons, like you mentioned. And you can make hexagons out of triangles. You can make squares out of triangles. You can use hexagons and triangles and squares and make a beautiful pattern, and they all can match up and be the same. So you can cover an entire plane or surface with those three shapes. Right. So when you look at an organization, an organization basically has three aspects to it. It has the strategic aspect at the top. That's the C suites and that area. And then you have the tactical organization part, which is the mid management. And then you have the operational part down at the bottom. So if you were to take a triangle, match it up to the strategic, a square, match it up to the tactical, and a hexagon, and match it up to the operational, now you can. And each one of those has a certain number of sides. So the triangle has three sides. So you pick three behaviors that are overarching behaviors for the entire organization. And then you have the tactical, which has four sides. So you pick four behaviors that match up to the organization and what you want the organization to do. And then the operational has six sides. So the hexagon has six sides. So you put in six behaviors. So now you have 13 behaviors that run throughout your entire organization. And those 13 behaviors, depending on what your organization's purpose is, those 13 behaviors can basically drive all of your. Your organizational structure. It can drive how your people behave, and it's more about the behavior and getting things done. So you want to pick behaviors that will match up to your. Your mission. And so that's, that's what this tessellation is about. And so you can create these tessellations and put them throughout your. Your entire organization. And it can cover the entire organization. Just like if you were taking squares, triangles, and hexagons and covering a surface.

Like, do you, like, you use the example of who was like, strategic was three sides to the triangle. Is it always the case or did you just use as an example?

Well, that's, that's the triangle is one of the strongest shapes. And. And so you want to have. And I use those three because for overarching goals, you don't want to get, you know, you don't want to get too crazy. Your mission statement isn't, you know, 45 pages long. You know, your mission statement should be something simple, quick and direct that identifies what you're doing. Right. So with these, you want three things that are. And this is just what I use with the, with these tessellations, because I know they work. You could have four, you could have six. You could have an octagon. I mean, you know, we get a little crazy with this, but it's just bringing up this idea of that it's about the behavior and we can apply the behaviors to these areas. And so the three, like I said, the, the three, let's say accountable, committed, incompetent. Right. And let me, let me explain. Competent. I used to have cops that would, you know, come to me as a lieutenant or as a chief or as a lieutenant or as a sergeant and say, hey, you know, the chief doesn't even know how to write a ticket. I go, yeah, well, the chief doesn't have to know how to write a ticket. Well, he's not a real cop if he doesn't know how to. I said, no, he's a real cop. He's sworn in, he's got the badge, he's got all that stuff. But he doesn't need to know how to write a ticket. But he needs to be competent to know how to do the budget. He needs to be competent to know how to do discipline. He needs to be competent to know how to interpret the law. So there's different levels of competency, but you can take competency and you can use that in, in the C suite. You can use that in the mid management, and you could, as. You can use it at the operational level. Conversely, you take one of the. Let's say you use, I don't know, risk taking as one of your behaviors. Risk taking. Does it work in the C suite? Yeah, it does. We take risks all the time in the C suite. Does it work in the mid management? Yes, it does. We do take. Yeah. And it works in the operational setting. So all of these behaviors, once you've identified them and you choose the behaviors that are going to fit for your organization, you can put them in each one of these. However, those three, you know, three, four, and six, that's a way to determine which ones are primary for that area. Right.

So how do you Come up with the behaviors. Like, is it just hooked around with your friends and debating or there's usually beer involved?

No, I'm kidding. Actually, the way I came up with. I came up with a list of 86 behaviors. And the way I came up with this list of 86 behaviors was through the consulting world. You know, you go in, just a good consultant, you ask questions, you write stuff on the walls and the boards and stuff. Right. Stick it up all over. And so what we would do is we would ask for two traits or behaviors of great leaders. We're talking about leaders in the very first day of this training. Two traits of great leaders from each person, and we get a list of 35, 40 different traits or behaviors. Then later on in the classes or later on in the training, we're talking about followership and types of followers, et cetera. And I would go to that same list and I would say, how many of these things do you not want in your followers? And so people look at that, they go, oh, yeah, that's right. You know, yeah, I do want that. You know, I want my followers to be that. And so what I would do, I collected these lists over a period of almost 10 years. And, you know, we get a lot of duplicates, right? Communication, that kind of stuff. So we get a lot of duplicates. And so it boils down to 86 behaviors that people were saying were traits or behaviors of great leaders and exemplary followers. So then you look at that list and there's all sorts of good. I'll just read a couple of them. Accepts, blame, consistent, communicator, courageous, flexible, focused, innovative, lead by example, problem solving, purpose, organized ownership, strategic trusting. I mean, there's 86 of these things here. Even well read is on there. And so you look at these behaviors, and those are the behaviors that I put in the book. If you have other behaviors, I mean, ideally you would want to have them fleshed out somehow, you know, not just do the beer thing at the bar, you know, have. Have these fleshed out somehow. There's a. A person down in the University of Texas who just recently did a study where she looked at behaviors of leaders and followers, same behaviors. So a lot of this is starting to happen where people are actually doing research on the behaviors and what those behaviors should be. And so it is an emerging field. And that's why I think behaviors is the way things are going to go. Yeah. Because there's increasing research being done on leader and follower behaviors. Shared behaviors, I should say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm Curious. Then when you think about this whole idea of tessellation and if we were to sort of behavior based tessellation, tessallization, call it that, Right. Like why do you think that's a good thing? Like, why do you think it makes companies more efficient?

Well, because if it's, if it's a behavior, then not only can you identify the behavior and define it, right? You identify it, define it, then you can teach it. If you can identify it, define it, you can teach it. If you can teach it, then you can use that as part of your expectations. If you can use that as part of your expectations. Now, it's something you can measure and evaluate. Right. And so not only does it give you, ideally, you know, what things you're supposed to, you only have to remember 13 words and you know, what you're expected to do from the bottom of the organization to the top of the organization and how that applies. So it, it breaks it down to the behavior. And those behaviors become more important than the position. And those behaviors can be put into an evaluation. Those behaviors could be put into expectations. Those behaviors could be. So I mean, when we do evaluations, it's about behaviors. We're saying you did or didn't do what we expect of you. Well, if they know what the expectation is, they know what the behavior is and they've defined it and they've been taught it. You're taking out all the fluff, I should say.

Yeah. So maybe to final question and sort of maybe to wrap it all together, where do you see the whole idea of the liminal space and tessellation playing together, for lack of a better phrase?

So as a leader, follower, the liminal space, you have to lead and follow at the same time. So if you know what behaviors you're accountable for, it doesn't matter whether you're leading or following those. Go to the behind, to the back. Right. We don't worry about those as much at all. And we worry about what the behavior is. Are people doing the correct behavior? I gotta say, I learned this early on in my law enforcement careers that, you know, every day you get, you go to different calls. Well, you're either the primary or the backup. Or some people call it the COVID Right. If you're the primary, you have certain behaviors that you're supposed to do. You do the interview, do you do the contact, you do this, you do that. And then if you're the backup, then you have other behaviors. You know, you listen to the radio, you listen to what's going on, you don't pay as much attention to what they're saying is, to what they're doing. You know, watch people's hands, cover, make sure that the other officer is safe. And so each day you get these calls where you're leading and following at the same time. I mean, you do both of them and it may happen to where. And one of them that I put in the book is that, you know, the situation changes. And now you as the follower, now you have to be the leader. So you don't sit there and go, oh, now what am I supposed to do? Wait, let me go look it up. You know, you can't do that, you know, and it also lends to succession planning. So this leader, follower, if you're focused on the behaviors, what if somebody gets taken out by a train? What if, you know, airplane falls on someone's head, you know, something bad like that. Now you have to lead. Are you going to have time to sit there and go, oh, no, now what am I going to do? Another story that's in the book is. Is about an incident that happened at one of the local cities. I've changed some of the circumstances just to make it a little more palatable for a book, for a public. But, you know, you have to. The sergeant in that goes in and picks up one of the officers, this terrible shooting kind of thing, and it takes him to the command post. And the command post is just the back of the local assistant chief's car. And get back to the command post. And the assistant chief turns to the sergeant and says, I can't handle this. Too many of my people are involved. You're in charge. And hands the commander's vest to that sergeant. Now the sergeant's on the hook for everything that happens, and that's how fast this can change. And so with the liminal space, if you're prepared to lead, you know, you just may have to. I have a shirt that says, you know, follow as if you are leading. Because if the situation changes, you just may have to. Yeah, yeah. So that's where I see that happening. And that's why I think it's important that we have those things together. And that's why the tessellations of behavior. If you know what's expected, you know what you're supposed to do, it doesn't matter if you're leading and following. I say, I was, I was trying to separate the two ideas with this book, and I just couldn't do it.

Yeah.

Because they do, you know, tie together so much.

Well, yeah, maybe Opposite sides of the same coin kind of thing, you know?

Correct. Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. Wow.

Really good liminal space. I actually, I've not read the book, full disclosure, but I'm going to. In fact, I'm making a road trip. I live in Texas and we got to make it our way back up to Ohio for some family stuff coming up here. So I think I found. Is it on audiobook?

It's not on audiobook yet. Sorry about that.

Okay, well, I have my wife drive when I'm driving. When I'm sitting in passengers, I'll pick up a book, Amazon or something.

Cool. Cool. Yeah.

Well, good stuff. Hey, Chris, if folks wanted to connect with you personally, what's the best way?

The best way is email chrismfleadership.com youm could also go to my website, which is CMF leadership. And I just have to remember who I am and where I work. That's it. And then there's a contact page on there. So that would be the best way to get a hold of me.

Okay. Are you on like LinkedIn and all.

That good stuff or all over LinkedIn, Facebook and X?

Okay, well, we'll, we'll get everything linked up in the show notes. Everybody just kind of scroll down on your app there, whatever you're listening on, and, and, and go connect with Chris and check out liminal space.

Perfect. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. All right.

Yeah, this has been a lot of fun and super interesting.

Good. Thank you very much for letting me be here. I, I really enjoy talking about this stuff. Yeah, fun. My fun for the day.

Right, Right. Got it. Awesome. All right, take care.

Thank you.

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