GA 545 | Combining Performance and Purpose with Fabrice Desmarescaux

Greed is good. You know, the Jack Welch era. Curl the bottom 10% of any company every year. Curl the bottom 10%. You know, these are lazy, useless buggers, you know, get rid of them. Yeah, I think we've become completely obsessed with one dimension of success at the expense of everything else.

Today I am excited to welcome Fabrice de Maresco to the show. Now, Fabrice, well, he was actually in France when we recorded this, but he' living in Singapore. And he'll tell them a little bit more about his, his background here in the beginning of the show. But oh my gosh, what an episode this was. So we sort of, I guess the original plan was to just sort of talk about leadership and you know, how Far beach does a lot of coaching with high level leaders, CEOs and so forth. But really what it turned into was a pretty deep conversation on a lot of just sort of human behavioral situation, you know, talking about, he shares in the opening, his personal story where he was, you know, sort of climbing the ranks in the corporate world and had been doing pretty well. And then he realized that he, you know, really lacked fulfillment in his life. And well, and then he goes on to share like what he did about that and so much of this, much of the podcast that he's really just about sort of how we can find meaning and purpose in our work and why that is so important. Because, you know, let's be honest, if you're in a for profit company or even if you're not, if you're not for profit, it doesn't matter. The organization does need to make money, right? But if you make money or you make profits, your end or your, your purpose, you know, that, that fuel, as I actually mentioned later in the podcast, that fuel is going to eventually run out. But if you find a deeper purpose and a true meaning to the value that you bring to the world, that can fuel you forever. And so it was a really fun conversation and I'm so, so glad that Far has written a book and we do talk about that later in the, in the episode. It's all about the art of retreat and it's really more about personal retreat and why that's so important. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com look for episode 545. And we've linked up everything that we talk about here in the show notes. So whatever app you're listening to, scroll down and you'll find links to connect with Fabrice, his book and so forth. So enough from me, let's get to the show. Fabrice, welcome to the show. How are you?

Hey, Ron. I'm very good, Very good. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. Where are you calling in from?

I'm in the south of France, so I. This is a holiday place. I grew up in Paris, but I've been living in Singapore for about 30 years now. I come to France occasionally for holidays, so you're catching me on holidays right now.

Yeah. Well, we were talking before we hit record that it must be a really difficult life, you know, having to go to south or France for.

For holiday, you know, a lot of hardship, my friend. A lot of hardship.

What brought you to Singapore?

Oh, well, I went to Singapore for my first job, so that was completely random. I was living in Spain at the time, and I was the only guy on the team who spoke some English. Not great, but some English. And so they said, we need someone to go to Singapore. And I was the. The one because I could. I could understand and speak English. So I landed in Singapore when I was 24 and did my projects and went back to Europe. And after a few years, I thought, europe is not that exciting after all. You know, maybe I go back to Asia. And so a few years later, one way tickets, and I went back to Singapore, never looked back. And that's been. I think that's been the best decision of my life. One, I should say, best decision of my life has been to marry my wife. The second. You know, you always have to say this. Yeah, yeah. But the second best has been to move to. To Asia. There's been so much personal growth in that. Yeah, this. This has become home. Right?

Wonderful.

Yeah.

I've never been to Singapore, but I really want to go. I heard it's just lovely. So.

Yeah, it's an amazing place. It's an amazing place. Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. All right, well, hey, Fabrice, you know how the drill goes. We like to get our show started with our guests sharing a quote. So do you have one?

I have two. Is that okay? Okay?

Yeah, it's perfect. Yeah.

Well, you know, it's the philosophy of life, Right. The first one is these two shall pass. So whatever life throws at you, it's never the end. There will always be a rebound and everything passes.

Yeah.

So that. That's helped me personally, you know, I think, like, everyone who listens to this, you know, we have our ups and downs, and sometimes when we're at the bottom of the. Of the curve, we think, okay, that's the end of. That's the end of the world. And I'll never. Yeah. You know, I'll never recover from that. And this is just not true. You know, everything passes, and there's always better days. So that. That's one. That's been one of my favorite one. For anyone who's in project management, the sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up.

Oh, I like that.

I've never heard that is totally politically incorrect. But, you know, we. You know, I work at McKins. We run a lot of projects for our clients, and I tell my teams, you know, if you fall. If you fall behind, better fall behind at the beginning of the project so you can catch up.

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of wisdom to that. Right. Or at least know you're behind. That's the biggest problem. Sometimes people aren't keeping score. They don't know if they're winning or losing, and then before they realize it, they've really lost because there's not enough time to catch back up. Right.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, Fabrice, tell us a little bit about. About yourself. Tell us about your background, how you got into your current line of work, and what is that line of work.

I coach CEOs and I work with their teams to improve the way they work together, help them achieve higher levels of performance, but also greater sense of purpose. So I never disconnect performance from purpose because I. I think that just making money for the sake of making money is very shallow. That may be what the world expects from us in a capitalist world, but I think it doesn't inspire. It doesn't give any sense of fulfillment. It certainly doesn't inspire the teams and the employees. So I'm always saying, yes, performance, yes, because we need to make money. At the end of the day, a company that doesn't make money is a company that goes bankrupt. But you need to have a purpose. You need to have a sense that you're doing something good, that. That. That serves others that is greater than you. And that combination of performance and purpose is what I. What I work on with my. With my clients. So that's my. That's my job. I. I serve some of the world's large companies, typically large multinationals. I operate out of Singapore, but I work pretty much everywhere around the world. And how did I get into that? Man, it's a long story and full of zigzags and failures.

Well, give us the elevator pitch, because I'm very curious.

Well, the elevator pitch is I was a business guy at some point in my career I was running a pretty large division of a bank. My dream was to become a CEO. I wanted to become the CEO of the bank. And when I finally got an opportunity running a large division of that bank, I realized that my life was completely meaningless. And that was probably the worst professional experience of my life. Because even though from an outside perspective, you could say, oh, this guy is super successful. He's got the corner office, the driver, the secretaries, etcetera, and thousands of people reporting to me internally, I was. I was completely empty. And I thought, why am I doing this? This. This doesn't create any fulfillment for me. Nothing wrong with the bank, Nothing wrong with being a banker, but it was just not me.

Yeah.

And that's a very, very rude awakening if you. When you realize, you know, you're like 40 years old and you realize that everything you've worked for in your life is not actually something that fulfills you. And I had to reinvent myself. I went into executive search and started advising senior executives on their careers, helping clients recruit CEOs and senior executives, C suite. And with that, I became more and more involved in coaching people to have successful careers, coaching CEOs, coaching their teams. And at that point, I thought, okay, the transactional part of it, the recruitment is becoming a distraction. I'm going to dedicate myself fully to supporting leaders. So I've just summarized 35 years of my life here in one minute.

I'm curious. Yeah. For brief. Not to pry into your personal situation or anything like that. So you share as much or as little as you want, but there's a pretty powerful statement when you said that you felt empty and no fulfillment and you had lots of worldly success. I mean, like, how did you. I mean, how did you figure that out? Were you sad or we just not feeling good? Not excited to get up in the morning or what did that look like?

Yeah, I was certainly not excited to get out of bed in the morning. But, you know, you and I probably. And a lot of the people who listen to us probably have gone through the same experience. You know, we. We're hardworking. We. We keep our heads down and we. We just keep pushing. Yeah, right. Because that's our upbringing. And, you know, never complain, never explain, just do what is right. And so that was a huge disconnect for me between, okay, you know what? I have a dream job. What rights do I have to complain? And so I was feeling completely lost. You know, like, who do I talk to? I have this great job, and I'm feeling miserable. And if I speak to my friends. They say, like, Fabrice, what are you complaining about? Obviously, was not gonna talk to my boss, who was the CEO of the bank. And I realized there's no one, really. I mean, you can talk to your spouse, your partner, etc. But they're probably going to be very supportive and very understanding. But they may not have the great sense of direction of what you should do either. And so the feeling I had was I was lost. And I've recognized that in others as well, you know, since I've been doing, you know, advising senior leaders for. For 20 years now. And I recognize it in others when. When you are successful because you're smart and you're conscientious, and you've been used since childhood to push through and seek success. And at some point, you have this awakening when you realize, why am I doing this? And I'm feeling empty inside. You feel completely lost. And so I hope I've been able over the years to guide also senior executives in their transitions to look for what gives them a sense of purpose, what gives them a sense of fulfillment that maybe doesn't entail throwing the baby with the bathwater. Sometimes there's very simple tweaks that you can do in your life. But. But, you know, I'm lucky in a way that this happened to me when I was 40 and not later in life where perhaps, you know, the cost of changing tracks would have been greater.

Yeah.

But I recognize that, you know, it happens to a lot of people. You know, we're all, in a way, we're all seeking purpose in life.

Yeah.

And the stories you read in the magazines, you know, where they all, you know, Since I was 8 years old, I knew I wanted to be a singer or I knew I wanted to be a vet or. Or an astronaut. You know, that's not the reality. The reality is most of us have no clue. We follow whatever our parents tell us to do or of best friend in school is going to some university to study law, and that's how we become a lawyer, you know, But. But we have no clue. Yeah, but if we're hardworking, we're going to become a successful lawyer. That's it. Does it mean that this is the purpose of your life?

Yeah.

Probably not.

Yeah.

Right. So that. That was my. Yeah, My. My. My very simple story. I thought banking would make me happy because I grew up in the world of banking. And so, of course, you know, what you do when you're driven? You want to become the CEO.

Well, transitioning a little Bit. So you mentioned that you work with a lot of, a lot of leaders, the highest leaders in, in the company, in some cases with, with CEOs and sort of thing with Corpor. There's, you know, some would say a bit of a crisis really with the way things are going, really across the world, not, not picking on Europe or America everywhere. I'm wondering if there's any flaws that you've experienced or that you've seen that are maybe contributing to this, to this crisis. What do you think about that?

I think, yeah, I think we've lost a sense of meaning and we've become so focused on performance. Look, any CEO I speak to these days or any senior executive and I say, you know, how are you doing? And immediately they're going to talk about how the company is doing, the share price, the profits, etc. Right. So we've been focusing on one track and one track only. I don't know when this started, you know, probably around the 80s. The greed is good, you know, the Jack Welch era, era. You know, curve the bottom 10% of any company every year, curve the bottom 10%. You know, these are lazy, useless buggers, you know, get rid of them. Yeah, yeah. I think we, we've, we've become completely obsessed with one dimension of success at the expense of everything else. And I think that has created a tremendous meaning crisis because just focusing on share price or profits just doesn't inspire anyone. And I see that in every client. You know, I speak with the employees, I speak to, you know, mid level managers and I ask them, how fulfilled are you with this role? And they say, well, look, you know, it's not bad, right? We have good conditions, etc. But look, I, I don't want to wake up in the morning just thinking, how do I make the shareholders richer? That doesn't fulfill me. And I think that's, that's the way the world has evolved now, where there's pretty much one dimension and one dimension only. So we don't focus on, okay, how do we allow our employees to flourish? How do we create something that our customers can be proud of or suppliers can be proud of, you know, to work for us. We've lost track of every other possible dimension.

Yeah, I'm reminded of the famous, and I'm sure you've seen it, you know, this famous Golden Circle video of Simon Sinek, you know, his first TED Talk video that went crazy. And he talks about, you know, the power of why. But then deeply embedded in that is what's your purpose. What's your cause? You know, like, what are you fighting for? What is your company fighting for? What are you trying to do? And I know for me personally that's helped me a lot. Even with like the work we do here at Gemba Academy. It's like, you know, our purpose is to help the, a broken world, right, like unite around the idea of continuously improving. And I know that fuel is our team, you know, because we do. I mean, of course, like any, we've got to make money to like you said, keep the lights on and keep everybody paid and all the rest of it. But, but you can't just allow that to drive you because it's just that fuel will run out. Right? That fuel will run out. But maybe having this longer term purpose, this deeper purpose, I think this is the secret. So like, how do you encourage people to tap into that? Let's say you're a, a manager in some business and you make a product of some sort. Like, would you encourage them to try to understand, like, what value does that product have? Or what are some of the things that you coach people on?

Yeah, the first question I try to understand is what's, what's the moment of truth for them? Like, you know, when did they realize that making this product was good and I'm using good with a capital G almost, you know, when did I realize that these actually can make a difference, could make a difference in the life of our customers or it could make a difference in the life of the employees, in the life of my team. But what really was the light bulb to say, you know what, I really enjoy what I'm doing. And you build from here. And as you said, I really like your purpose statements. You have a very strong sense of purpose. And from that, of course, performance and money will be a consequence. But you don't put that first. Or, you know, our purpose is to make money. No, you know, our purpose has to be something like, you know, we manufacture great products or we offer great services. And one question also that I like to ask is if you didn't exist, who would miss you? For me, that was the existential question. When I was working in my bank, I was asking myself, if this bank did not exist, would anyone miss us? And I kept coming back to no, nobody would miss us because there's other banks just as good manufacturing the same credit cards and the same mortgages and the same products and the same corporate loans in an industry where everyone pretty much does the same thing. And I couldn't come to a satisfying answer. As to, you know, if, if like a giant spaceship came on top of, of the country and, and sucked my bank out of the earth and, and it would disappear forever, who would notice? And the answer was probably no one.

Yeah. Now, I mean now in fairness, somebody's listening. Working at a bank, they're like, oh, I'm happy, I like it. You know, maybe, you know, the, the, the personal banker finds purpose in helping young couples purchase their first home. And that fuels them. So and fairness to, you know, like say the banking industry, for example, not to beat them up, but you could find purpose in that, wouldn't you agree? Maybe not, maybe not everybody, but there are, I'm sure there are happy bankers out there who are finding.

And that's why I was, I was saying, you know, there was nothing wrong with, with, with my bank because actually it still exists. You know, 20 years later, it's still bank.

Yeah.

And so it's, it was me.

Yeah.

It was the meeting of a corporation and an individual and it was not who I was. So I completely, I mean, look, I work with bankers, I serve banking CEOs and their teams. I'm coaching, you know, aspiring CEOs who want to become CEO of their banks. You know, that's absolutely. And one thing I drill them on is to say, look, you need to be able to articulate, articulate your vision. You know, what are you gonna, if, if you become the CEO, what are you gonna do that goes beyond just generating money for the shareholders?

Yeah.

What are you gonna do so that people miss you if you don't exist? What are you gonna do that you can go home and tell your 8 year old daughter, you know, this is what daddy does and you can be proud.

Yeah. Yeah. So maybe in a way like within our lean world, one of the things that we're passionate about is like just a general term is like you find what's value to your customer or to valuable. Right. Delivering value is a big thing that we talk about in Lean. And then how do we make that value flow seamlessly, you know, to the customer? And so identifying what is value number one and then number two, you know, how do you maximize that? Right. So that's another idea that we have here at our company is like how do we.

You.

If you maximize the value, people realize the money will come in buckets. Right. And I think that's overused. You know, Zig Ziglar help enough people get what they want. I mean there's maybe some, maybe not always true, but I do think there's Something too, like identifying value, figuring out how to maximize that value to the world, and then your success is much more likely. Would you agree?

I completely agree. I completely agree. And I. I really believe that it starts with two cons. Two major constituencies. One is the customers. Right. So you need to understand what creates value for them.

Yeah.

And. And the more commoditized the industry is, you know, how can you differentiate and create that little extra. Yeah, right. So industry, like credit cards, Right. I mean, like, they're all the same. And I don't think you really differentiate if you have, like, a special marketing program or these. So you get points because everybody does the same. So how are you going to find, you know, either a source of value because you have a special identity and your customers can identify with your brand, or a quality of service, et cetera. How do you. How do you differentiate? And what is the customer valuing in your product? I think the other constituency that is very important is the employees. Because ultimately, I think creating a great company is not just something that is decided at the top in an ivory tower with some customer satisfaction surveys or an advertising agency. Everyone has a part to play. The guy who's on the assembly line has. Has a part to play, and the guy in the finance department and in human resources and in supply chain and whatever. So how do you bring all the brains together? And the larger the company, the more difficult it is. Right. Because large companies tend to be very structured in a very nice pyramid. But how do you bring all the brains together to say, you know, this is what we want to do, you know, this is what inspires us? Yeah, so that's the thing, right. To create value is it has to create value for your customers. It also has to create, maybe not value, maybe that's not the right word, but fulfillment for your employees so that they feel that they are getting something out of it that is not just a paycheck at the end of the week, but there's growth, there's belonging, there's pride, there's a sense of mastery sometimes, you know. You know, particularly in the industrial sector, you know, like mastery of creating excellent products, you know, optimizing the process so that the defect rate goes down to zero. And it's elegant. It's. It's the way it's done is beautiful. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're getting into one of my passions. And like, Dan Pink wrote a fantastic book on, called Drive. What motivates People. And, you know, he contrasts extrinsic motivation with intrinsic motivation. And talking about not that extrinsic motivation is all bad because it can work in, in some cases. But intrinsic motivation, he opines, you must have mastery, autonomy and purpose, things that you've already talked about. It's, it's. So this is what is driving most people, especially the CEO. I mean, because let's be honest, the CEO is probably fine financially. Right. They probably have enough money and they're not worried about money, but that's eventually not enough. Right. And so without being intrinsically motivated, that CEO is not going to be fulfilled. Right. Because there's no mastery, there's no autonomy, there's no purpose. Right. And. Yeah. So have you looked at Dan Pink's work at all? Are you familiar with that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I dedicated part of my book on this topic. Distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.

Yeah.

And the other distinction I made, and I have a chapter on that in my book, is the difference between the journey and the destination in the corporate world. You know, we always have a destination. You know, when, when we reach $1 billion in sales, we will be happy. And there's always this carrot dangling, you know, with some artificial milestones, you know, sales volume or number of products, etc. Which, which is actually completely artificial.

Yeah.

And I'm saying no, you know, maybe you need milestones, maybe you need, you know, targets, etc. Because it's, it's, it's still important in terms of project management in the corporate world. But more importantly, what is the journey that you're on? Yeah, right. Because you get there one month later, three months later, two months earlier, nobody will care in 10 years. Yeah. But you want the journey to be fulfilling.

Yeah.

And I love, you know, what you mentioned earlier, you know, about mastery and purpose, because that, that is really, you know, a life of apprenticeship in a way. You know, you remember in the old days, like a few, I mean, you don't remember and neither do I, but a few centuries ago there was this companionship where you learn your trade through apprenticeship.

Right.

And it could take 20 years before you become a master. Yeah. There's this notion that at some point you have mastery, you have autonomy, you have independence, you have purpose.

Yeah.

And we have lost that in the modern world in many places, but we still can find it in some corners of the corporate world. You know, this is not a concept that is antiquated because it's a few centuries old.

Yeah. You mentioned your book. Tell us a little bit about your book. Have you written more than one or two?

I've. Well, this is the book. This is my first book that I've written alone. So I've participated in other books in the past where, you know, I wrote a chapter or two. It was a long time ago and these were books on banking. So as you can imagine, this chapter of my life is long closed. Now, this is a guide. It's called the Art of Retreats. And it's actually a step by step guide for anyone who has a leadership position to reflect on their journey and say, how do I become a better leader? By focusing on my inner journey. So it's not the 10 things I need to achieve to be a good leader, the communication skills or the strategy. No, you and your inner journey. What's happening inside, and how do you gain mastery of your inner world as a leader?

So the book is called the Art of Retreats. When I hear retreats, I think, so do I bring my leadership team to the Four Seasons and we spend three days together? Or is that what you mean? Or is that more of a personal retreat or both?

So it's more a personal retreat. And so you bring yourself to the Four Seasons or to your cabin in the woods or to the beach house.

Of France.

You know.

Exactly.

And believe it or not, but I bring clients, clients here into my house and we do work together because just the fact that you change the environment will change the energy and the vibes and you will become much more open if you try. I mean, where do you get your best ideas from? Certainly not in, you know, in your cubicle in front of the screen. Right, right. Neither do I.

Walking outside or something like that.

Yeah, exactly. I asked that question to a lot of leaders. You know, no one has ever said, you know, when I'm sitting at my desk, front of the computer, the boardroom. Yeah, that's, that's where we get the best ideas. In the boardroom. Yeah, yeah. You see, I get my best ideas when I walk in the woods, when I'm alone at home in the middle of the night.

Yeah.

When I'm playing with my kids, when I'm swimming or pushing iron at the gym. Right. So create the conditions, first of all, to be in a space where you can, where you can really reconnect with yourself. And, and then being alone really, really helps because when you're surrounded by people that are talking to you, it's not a great place to, to, to start the inner journey. So being alone and in silence and then go with the willingness to, to reconnect with your spirit.

Yeah.

Wow.

You know, like something that I Don't know what your thought is, but something that I've really been working on personally is like, embracing silence. You know, I'm a man of faith, and so I. I. Every morning I get up and I sit in my dark living room, and I have a routine that I follow, you know, reading scriptures and different things like that, but that the. The best part of it is I just turn everything off and I just sit in the dark and I just close my eyes, and I'm not even necessarily praying or anything. I just sit there in silence. And it's. It's the most important. I think part of my day really, is just embracing silence. And silence is difficult for us, at least for me, you know, because there's just so much noise, you know, in the world. Right. And get in your car. What's the first thing you do? Well, put on the Gamba Academy podcast, of course. You know, or listen to the radio. You know what I mean? Like, we always have something going on in our head, but we can't think with all of this noise. I mean, would you agree?

Absolutely. You know, a lot of my clients are afraid of the silence, and they're afraid of solitude. Right. Not afraid in the sense of a little child afraid in the dark, but they say, look, I'm just not used to it, you know, because we're constantly surrounded by people and we're constantly connected, and we have notifications and messages and. And the rest. And so if you turn off the devices like you do in your morning routine, that's what I call silence, by the way. Right.

Yeah.

It's disconnect everything and sit by yourself in silence and solitude.

Yeah.

And that is a beautiful practice. Doesn't have to be for hours. You can do that for 10 minutes, 15 minutes. And whether you're in prayer or in meditation or you're journaling, you know, and writing. Writing your thoughts on a piece of paper.

Yeah.

Or you're reading poetry or you're reading the scriptures, you know, but. But create a space where you can really reconnect with yourself.

Yeah.

The world outside is dominated by numbers and science and. And, you know, deadlines and. And objectives and. And destinations in a way. Right. But being alone in silence and solitude is the journey.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you need to balance these two dimensions. Right. Or you could also call that the. The dimension of. Of being versus the dimension of doing. Doing is when we go to. To work, you know, and we're constantly doing. Doing, doing a little bit like the person who's, like, spinning the plates, you know, and if you manage to, to spin six plates, then you get promoted and they give you seven plates to spin.

Yeah.

Right. And that's success. Oh, you know, I can go from seven plates to nine plates, maybe. Right. And that's success. But, but that is doing. And we completely overlook the, the being. And so the, the being where you're going to have, you know, the reconnection with, with who you truly are. And, and, and you're going to be able to listen to, to the, that. That faint voice of your soul that tells you, you know, here's how to distinguish right from wrong. You know, you have a dilemma at work. You know, the boss wants you to cut costs, but you don't want to fire people who've been loyal and who are competent. What to do? Do I stand up to my boss or do I do as I'm told? And you know, and that's in this. You're not going to find the solution. In the world of doing, you cannot do a spreadsheet. Pros and cons. Right. You have to find the answer by reconnecting to your being. Yeah. So I think the greatest questions in life about, you know, big decisions at work, do I stay or do I go? Do I marry this person or not? You know, you're not going to solve them with a spreadsheet. You're going to solve them in a space of being where you truly reconnect to who you are. So my book is, look, it's applied to situations of leadership because that, that's, that's what I do. I'm not a family counselor. I'm not a personal psychotherapist. Yeah. What I do is I, I guide and provide wisdom to senior leaders. So my book is based on my experience and, you know, I use.

I'm going to order it today. I full, I have not read it, full disclosure. But I'm very, very intrigued. So I'm going to get, I'm going to buy it today and read it. Maybe I'll have you back on to ask you more questions after I read it. But maybe to wrap things up for Bruce, I'm wondering if, if you could help. There's someone listening right now who. Maybe they're feeling stuck. Maybe they feel like you did when you were working at the bank. And again, all love for banks. I feel like we beat up the banks today, but maybe they're feeling, they're in that rut. They're in that. The bottom part of the curve, as you mentioned earlier. Like, what are some actionable Tips or steps that you can, that you can give to that person listening.

Yeah, I think the first one is always to be kind to yourself because the first thing that's going to come to you if you're feeling at the bottom of the curve is what's wrong with me. And, and, and, and there must, I must be deficient if I don't find my life satisfying despite all the signs of success. You know, then there's, there's something wrong with me. That's the first, that's the first thing that comes to our mind. And I'm like, no, there is nothing wrong with you. First of all, you have grown. You know, if you look at your previous years of experience, you have learned tremendously that that has shaped you. But maybe this is no longer who you are and maybe this is a time for awakening and the fact that you're asking yourself those questions is just a sign that your awakening has started. So number one, don't freak out. Be kind to yourself, and then do not believe that the solution is going to come right away. Do not, do not like we always do. I want to rush for the solution. Please, someone tell me what I should do. I should quit my job and, and join that company now. You know, a personal transformation, if it's deep, will take years. And I've, I've accompanied many leaders in their personal transformations and the average time it takes is probably around five years. So that's not gonna happen overnight. Right. I've worked with someone so, you know, a successful, well, a banker, you know, a very kind, very kind soul. Someone who had a very successful career in banking, ended up being the CEO of a bank and retired very early and faced basically the dark night of the soul. Right. I'm like 52 years old, retired from the CEO of the bank and really wondering what is the meaning of life? Because I no longer have all the journalists calling me for interviews, all the people chasing me for jobs and, and so what do I do? And I, and I worked with him. He has very successfully reinvented himself as the chairman of several companies that he has taken from, you know, good to great. I mean this, this guy has done amazing things with the companies for which he's been the chairman. He's enjoying his life because he's also finding time to sell his boats and to travel the world and, but, and he's found a new, you know, meaning of, of life and then a new way to, to create value that doesn't entail being an executive, but being a non executive and he's probably more satisfied than he's ever been. But there was a time when. When really at the bottom of the curve, where, when he was seriously asking himself, you know, is it the end? You know, I've had my success for sure. Money was no issue. But I'm 52 years old. What am I going to do for the next 40 years when nobody, you know, the phone is not ringing anymore. And so, but it took, it took a while. Right? It's been, it's been. Yeah, it's been five years now since I started working with him. And a lot of these transitions take. Take a few years. So that, that would be my advice. Be kind, be patient, listen to your soul. Do not make any rush decision. And then the thing that has saved me in looking for a new phase of my life, and that has worked really, really well with my clients, is what I call look for the breadcrumbs. Look at the little signs that you have left behind of things that give you a sense of fulfillment. So, for example, in my case, I was reading books, Spirituality, Psychology, Philosophy, Wellness, when I was in my 20s. What did I do with that? Absolutely nothing. I went to become an engineer and an MBA and then a banker. Right. So I did absolutely nothing with my love for philosophy and psychology and spirituality. But you know what? The breadcrumbs were there.

Yeah.

And when I went through my search for a second life in my 40s, I looked back to all these things. I looked at what gave me a sense of fulfillment. You know, I was always recruiting young people in my, in, in my first career. I was always a mentor to younger people. And then it's just a question of putting the breadcrumbs together.

Yeah.

Right. And everyone has them. So look back. What has given you a sense of fulfillment? What are the roads not taken?

Yeah.

What, what, what did you dream of being when you were young and you, you know, you ignored it or your parents told you to ignore it, you know, and, and reconstruct your life based on these little things. And, and, yeah, and the picture will start emerging, but it's not going to, to emerge like, you know, in one day.

Yeah. Love it. For Breece, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for, for carving out some time on your holiday to. To visit with us. If folks want to connect with you personally, what's the, what's the best route?

Well, they can follow me on LinkedIn. They can. That's. That's the best I have my website. You can, you can put the link.

Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah. Yep.

And. And my book, the Art of Retreat, has also my. My personal email address. It's also on LinkedIn, so they can send me an email.

Perfect.

Yeah.

We'll link everything on the show notes, so everybody just scroll down on your app and all the links will be there. So, Fabrice, again, thank you so much for coming on. This has been fantastic.

Ron, I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you very much.

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