GA 554 | Leveraging Emotional Intelligence with Robin Hills

Emotions contain data. So what we can do is to interpret that data, work with that data and help us to work with that data in order to make the best possible decisions and use it to be kind to people, to build up the relationships and leave them feeling better through our interaction.

Today I'm excited to welcome Robin Hills to the show. Now, Robin is based out of the UK and he's a emotional intelligence coach and a trainer and he's been studying and working in this field of emotional intelligence for many, many years. And so today it was just a really fascinating interview for me because I'm super interested in this topic and neuroscience and different things like that. And, and so we really sort of begin with like, what is emotional intelligence? Just think about those two words, emotional and intelligent. They really don't. Well, and so we sort of start there and then we just get into different topics. Like, you know, I was, again, I was interviewing today from a place of curiosity, honestly, and, you know, I've asked him about the role of, or the interaction between pride and, and, and the role of humility and emotional intelligence and about empathy and, and just. And then how does emotional intelligence play into being a leader of people or how does it play into being a continuous improvement practitioner? Because we're obvious a lot of people and so it's these skills that I think are extremely underappreciated within our continuous improvement community. Sure, we got a value stream app and we've got to know 5s and the 7 ways and all that. It's very important we should know all those things. But if we don't understand things like how our emotions play a role in being successful as leaders, or as continuous improvement practitioners, or as parents, as human beings. Right then we're really missing out. So that's why I think this topic is so important. We actually released a course at Gemba Academy recently called Emotional Intelligence. And what I'm going to do, we'll get it all, the timing all worked out, is when this episode releases, I'm going to open up this entire course. It's, you know, obviously behind the paywall, but we're going to open it up, make it free. Free for anyone. Even if you're not a subscriber to Gemba Academy, you're going to be able to watch this emotional intelligence course. So scroll down on whatever app you're listening to after you listen to the Inter, and you're going to be able to go over to, to the GembaCademy.com website and watch this full emotional intelligence course. Free of charge because it's a great course. But yeah, it's just so important that we understand the role our emotions play in being successful. Okay. And so this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 554. But again, just scroll down on whatever app you're listening to. You'll be able to go and connect with Robin over on LinkedIn and his website and then also check out the emotional intelligence course on the Gemba Academy website. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Robin, welcome to the show. How are you?

I am doing great, Rob. Thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Yeah, likewise, likewise. Where are you calling in from?

I'm in Greater Manchester in the United Kingdom. Nice.

Nice.

Well, it's nice pouring with rain at the moment and it has been all day and I don't think we're going to get a respite today. But yes, a lovely part of the world.

Yes, I love, I love the United Kingdom. Yeah, there's been several years since I've been. But yeah, I. We need to get back over there to, to check everything out so. Well, anyhow, hey, I'm really excited to. To have you on this topic is very, very important and something that even in our world. I don't know what you know about Gamba Academy, but we're in this continuous improvement and teach something called Lean and Six Sigma and it's all about people and yeah, emotional intelligence is a. Is a key aspect to, to what we all need to be doing as. As well. Not just to mention being a good human being. You should be able to, to understand this important concept. So, yeah, really excited for this, for this interview. So, as you know, we do like to get things started with our guests sharing a quote or two. Do you have one?

I do, yes. Yes, this is a quote I use all the time. It is so, so powerful and I think a lot of people are very surprised when they hear that. It came from Aristotle about three and a half, two and a half thousand years ago, but it is so relevant today. Anyone can become angry, that's easy. But to be angry with the right person to the right degree at the right time for the right purpose and in the right way, that's not in everyone's power. That's not easy.

What's that mean to you?

Well, it means that anyone can experience any kind of intensity around emotions, but it's how you actually utilize and work with those emotions that's important. So if we go back to the quote, anyone can become angry, that's easy. But to be angry with the right person to the right degree at the right time for the right purpose and in the right way, that's not easy. And here I am as an emotional intelligence coach, facilitator, and trainer. I've been working in this field for well over 15, 20 years, and I still don't know how to do this. So if any of your listeners know how to do it, can you let me know, please?

Yeah, yeah, man. Yeah, just. I've actually been reading and listening a little bit about. About. About wrath or anger and. And just the, you know, how deadly it can be. But on the flip side, perhaps there could be opportunities for righteous anger. Right? I mean, in some cases it is. It's okay to be angry, right? But. Yeah, but maybe we can get into that later on here. I think this is a really, really important of again, of life. But before we get too deep, Robin, and solving all the world's problems, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and then how you got into this line of work.

Well, I. I started my career back in the last century working in sales. It was in medical sales. And I learned through that process that being emotionally intelligent was a key part of me being successful, but it was also a key part of me, my clients being successful as well. So it was how they were working with and utilizing their emotions that really led to the success that they were looking for in terms of their role. It led to the way in which they performed. And if they were using their emotions well, they made better decisions, it reduced their stress, and they built up better relationships. Now, that was the same for me as much as it was for my clients. But a lot of my clients being doctors, they're the type of people who think they know everything, and they're the most emotionally intelligent people on the planet. Unfortunately, that's not so we can all learn to become more emotionally intelligent. That role eventually. Oh, well, not that role specifically, but I had a number of redundancies along the way and a number of role changes along the way. And I eventually got to the point where I thought, you know, I can actually make myself redundant here, so why don't I set myself up in business? It took me a couple of attempts to do it, but I did it, as I say, about 15, 20 years ago. And quite honestly, whilst it was incredibly hard at the beginning, I've never looked back. So here I am, really trying to work to help People to make better decisions, reduce stress, build up relationships, improve their performance and help them in whatever way I can to work with their emotions more efficiently and more effectively.

Yeah. Okay, well, so we've, we've hinted out already about emotional intelligence as sort of the topic of today, but let's sort of start at the start, as they say. And I'd like, if you wouldn't mind, Robin, to maybe define what do you mean by emotional intelligence and then, you know, how does it relate to those of us working in business and in life today?

Well, it works for everybody. And I think people really do need to understand emotions far better. And I think a lot of trainers and emotional intelligence coaches don't really understand it. And I've got to put my hand up and say, I don't fully understand it, but we're getting better at understanding. But more importantly, we're getting better at applying it. But what is it? It's two words that don't seem to sit very well together. Emotions and intelligence. They seem to be well at polar opposites of each other. So putting them together, what is emotional intelligence? Well, emotional intelligence is being smart with your feelings. It's the way in which you combine your thinking with your feelings in order to make good quality decisions, build up authentic relationships and take action. And I've got another quote for you here, Ron, which I think is really relevant. And it comes from Daniel Goldman, who bought the two words emotional intelligence to the public consciousness back in the mid-90s. And he said there is intelligence in emotions and intelligence can be brought to emotions. So what I think he's meaning there is that emotions contain data. So what we can do is to interpret that data, work with that data and help us to work with that data in order to make the best possible decisions and use it to be kind to people, to build up the relationships and leave them feeling better through our interaction than they did beforehand. Yeah.

So when you were sort of defining that and even just thinking about, like you said, emotions or emotional and intelligence immediately, for whatever reason, thought of. I love the brain. You know, when trying to understand the brain and thinking about our amygdala, Right. So this, you know, fight or flight and our prefrontal cortex, which is our critical thinking. Right. And so perhaps it's this beautiful harmony between these two aspects of our brain, this so called lizard brain in the, in the critical thinking, like what do you think? Is that, is that, am I onto something there?

Oh, yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. The brain is the organ which provides us with our thinking and provides us with our emotions or provides us with the filter so that we could understand our emotions. But I think emotions are a little bit more than just what goes on in the brain. And that's not to take anything away from what you've said, Ron, because neuroscience is fundamental to our understanding of emotional intelligence. But we're not brains on sticks. We have bodies. And the body informs the brain and the brain informs the body. So there are other parts of the body that will help us with our thinking. There's a neural complex around the heart and there's a neural complex around the gut. So these three brains actually work very much in harmony together. The brain provides us with our cognitive ability, our thinking. It does most of the rationale work. But the heart provides us with our values and our understanding around our values. And does it feel right?

When you say heart though, are you speaking like of our heart that's pumping or are you talking more.

No, I'm talking about the heart with regards to the electricity rather than the pumping. Now the heart has an electrical circuit around which there are neural complexes or neurons around the heart. So it provides it with a capacity to provide us with information. And as I say, the heart itself provides us with our capacity to feel. Does it feel right? I can feel it in my heart. Whenever we're talking about love, we use the symbol of a heart. So the heart has an effect on the way in which we work with emotions, as indeed does our gut around our enteric system. It, there's a highly complex nervous complex around there and that then informs us. And with regards to the gut, it's more black and white. Yes and no. So by listening to our heart and listening to our gut, it will help us with our intuition and the brain provides us with the rationale behind making those decisions.

No, that's super interesting. I've not really ever heard anyone talk about the importance of the gut and the heart, but it makes total sense. You know, my, my wife is very into health and trying to, you know, keep our family healthy and you know, studying about so called leaky gut and you know, having lots of issues, you know, internally and, and you know, being able to heal yourself inside out sort of thing. Right. And I think there's a, it makes so much sense to, to think about if all aspects of your physical body aren't aligned and working properly, everything's going to be off. Right?

That's right. That's right. And I think a lot of people, when they think about emotions, they think if they are thinking more academically and Scientifically, they will look at it from a neuroscience perspective. But I'm more of a biologist. I look at the body as a whole. So when I'm looking at emotions, emotions are so, so complex. They are the way in which we physiologically and psychologically engage with our environments. So it's a combination of physiology and psychology that informs us, that provides us with this data in order that we can very simplistically take fight or flight. And we can make a decision, do I stand up for my. Do I fight or do I run away to live another day? Now, sometimes we will make the wrong decision and we will run away when we should be fighting. And there are other times when we're fighting, when we should be fleeing. So again, when we look at it from a very, very simplistic level, emotional intelligence is very, very hard. And when we layer on all of these complexities, it becomes even harder to. But let's go back to our definition. It's being smart with our feelings. So it's understanding our feelings, understanding why we're feeling what we're feeling, and making choices, making the best choice that we can possibly make.

Yeah, I wonder. I would love to get your opinion more on the. Maybe not physiological, although there's probably aspects to it, but the relationship between, like the things that I've been reading about recently are sort of the relationship between pride, envy and wrath, those three, or anger. Right. And I'm wondering if you've thought about or looked into like the role of like, of humility, you know, which is the opposite of pride. Right. Like when you think about just that, just think, start with pride perhaps, like is there any. What are your thoughts on that, the relationship or the importance of humility when it comes to emotional intelligence?

Oh, I think humility is vitally important as a component of my. Of emotional intelligence is having the self awareness to work, to know when to be humble and how to use that humility in order to take relationships forward. But I think the other important thing is to have an awareness that there are times when it's perfectly acceptable to be proud and to use the pride in an appropriate way. Ron, Ron, you're proud of the Gemba Academy, aren't you? Sure, sure, there's pride there. You're proud of your family, aren't you?

Yep, yep.

And you're proud of what you've achieved with your family. That's an appropriate use of pride. So whereas people will look at pride and say, well, pride comes before a fall. No, you have to take that pride and work with Pride. And I'm a great advocate of destroying some myths around emotional intelligence. And one of the greatest myths I often hear, and I even hear it from academics working in the field that I work with, in psychologists and scientists, neuroscientists, they will talk about positive and negative emotions. And I don't buy that because emotions provide us with, with data. It's not the emotion that is positive or negative. So you look at a bit of data, it's not positive or negative. It's what you do with the data that is positive or negative. So are you using that emotion constructively, in which case then we could label it as being positive, or are you using it destructively, in which case we could then label it as negative. But let's get away from labeling the emotions as being positive or negative. Negative. Yeah. Some emotions feel incredibly unpleasant and there's an intensity around that unpleasantness. But what we've got to do is to recognize physiologically and psychologically we have some data there and it's up to us as a human being to use our intelligence and work with that.

Yeah. What are your thoughts on, like Marcus Aurelius famous quote. What is it, the top of my head? Something. Choose not to be harmed, you won't feel harmed. Don't feel harmed. You haven't been something to that extent. Do you buy that?

Yes, I do. And I think whatever emotion that you are experiencing, whatever piece of data that you've been provided with, you've got some choices to make around it. Now, the amount of time that you've got to make your choice, maybe seconds, maybe seconds. But what you've got to do is to put yourself in control and learn that you have got choices to make. Now, again, I say what I said earlier, I'll repeat it. There are sometimes when the list of choices you've got are not great choices, but make the best of a bad bunch. And if you make the wrong choice, stand up and say, look, I made a mistake here, I should have done this instead. Be human, apologize. We all make mistakes. But when I'm working with global leaders, I say to them, look, if you can put your hand up and say that you make the best choice, 80, 85, 90% of the time you're actually a good leader. Let's not focus in on the 5, 10, 15% of times when you don't make the right choice. Just be human, leader, apologize, and right you're wrong.

What about empathy? What are your thoughts on empathy as it relates to emotional intelligence?

Well, empathy is a core component of Emotional intelligence. This is an awareness that you have what's going on in the outer world. So in order to empathize with somebody, the important thing there is to understand what's going on in their. In their world. Try and understand it. Ask questions. See them as an equal. Find out what it is that drives them. What is it that they're thinking, what is it that they're feeling. See if you can think and feel the same way. You do not have to agree with that person. That person may be thinking abhorrently to you, may be behaving abhorrently to you. Why? What is driving their thinking? What is driving their feelings? Are they seeing something in the world that you're not? That's the question you should be asking yourself. So take away any value judgments, take away any subjectivity, and explore. In that way, you're treating somebody like an adult and you're. You're learning from them.

Yeah, that's hard.

This emotional intelligence is very hard. And people think they can learn it in the morning. No, no, I'm still learning and I still get it wrong. Yeah.

Now, what about, like, are there ways of, I don't know, sort of like assessing how we, how emotionally intelligent we are? Like, is there a test that I can take? Like a Myers Briggs test or something like this?

Yes, yes. Well, in actual fact, Myers Briggs will give you some very good information if you know how to interpret it appropriately. But there are some great emotional intelligence tests out there that are scientifically valid and quite robust tests, and these will measure components of emotional intelligence. I'm qualified in using the EQI 2.0, but there are other very good, very well, very interesting, and as I say, valid tests that are available. So it'll give you an insight into your emotional intelligence. It'll give you a snapshot of the time that you took the test, and then you can work with somebody to help to look at improving the things that you are really, really good at. And it'll help you to understand the things that you find a little bit harder to do. Now, again, I'd like to dispel one of these other misconceptions. A lot of people will talk to me because I'm an emotional intellig coach, trainer, and facilitator. And they think that, oh, I can use my knowledge of emotional intelligence here to impress Robin. So they will call it eq. And unfortunately, it doesn't impress me because EQ is an abbreviation that's often banded around about emotional intelligence. But EQ is emotional quotient. It's like iq. It's a measure of those components of emotional intelligence that we can measure. But emotional intelligence is a lot more than just measurables. It takes into things like prejudices, attitudes, preferences, biases, both unconscious and conscious. And these are things that we have no control over. So for me, EI is the proper abbreviation for emotional intelligence because it covers everything or as much as we possibly can.

Okay, so we've got a lot of people listening right now. Many of them are leaders of people. We also have a lot of what we would just call continuous improvement practitioners who are out working in businesses and in as consultants trying to just help organizations be better. And so a lot of what we're doing, most of what we're doing in fact, is interacting with other people. And so I'm wondering if you could maybe give us some thoughts or some advice on, on how we can be using emotional intelligence to really sort of just get the best of those we work with and ourselves. Get the best from ourselves.

Yes, and I think the, the best way to look at it is go back to what I said earlier. Emotions contain data. There are going to be certain situations that you find yourself in where it doesn't feel particularly pleasant. There are going to be other situations where it feels really pleasant. Now, really, just to keep it very, very straightforward for everybody. And this is what I recommend in my training with people. Just look at emotions and say, why am I feeling what I'm feeling? I may be feeling unpleasant, but what is this telling me and how do I use that feeling in order to work constructively with it? So, for example, prior to coming on to see you, Ron, and to speak with you, I was not feeling particularly pleasant. I was feeling anxious. I had a degree of nervousness there. It doesn't feel good. I don't like that feeling, but I recognize that I need that, that set of feelings in order to put myself physiologically and psychologically in the right space to have a good quality interaction with you. So I'm actually utilizing that set of feelings constructively. Now, after our conversation, if I'm still feeling anxious and the anxiety gets more and more and more intense, what I've got to do is to look at ways in which I'm working with it and I've got to stop it from leading to destructive behaviors such as high levels of anxiety states, highly stressed, which may eventually lead to clinical depression. So look, let's flip it over to the other side and let's look at pleasant emotions. There are times when we feel pleasant in Terms of, of the task that we're doing and we get into flow, how can we get more of that? What is it that drives us? What is it that motivates us? Motivates us? How can we get into that emotional state that really, really means that we're enjoying the work that we're doing and utilize that constructively. Now we've got to stop it from being destructive because there are certain jobs that I love doing, but I'm paid too much to do that job. So I've got to learn to delegate it. I've got to learn to delegate those jobs and I've got to learn to give up things that I really like that are detrimental to me and detrimental to other people. Now those are just a few very, very, very simple examples, but I would encourage your listeners to. About pleasant and unpleasant emotions leading to constructive or destructive behavior.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is just like you've been mentioning multiple times, just awareness. Right. Being self aware is so important.

Yes. And this is where Myers Briggs and this is where the EQI two point zeros are really, really helpful in providing that self awareness.

Yeah, yeah. So, last question, Robin. So we think about the future and already today, you know, here in 2024, artificial intelligence is, is all around us. We can't escape it, even if we're trying to go onto a computer. And you're, you're at, you're, you're interacting with it whether you like it or not. What role do you see emotional intelligence playing in the workplace in the future with things like AI? And not just AI, there'll be another thing. You know, five years from now, AI will be old. AI will be like Google is today. Right. So, but like, what about emotional intelligence? How will it evolve and adapt?

I don't think emotional intelligence will evolve and adapt as a construct itself. I think our understanding will improve over time. To answer your question, AI is a tool. It's a brilliant tool, yet it's got its limitations. The thing that it cannot replace and can't replicate and whatever comes next will never be able to replicate are the complexities that we talked about right at the beginning of the podcast, the human brain. So what does the human brain give us? Well, it gives us emotions. What does that lead to? It leads to empathy. We as human beings can empathize. AI can't. We as human beings can innovate, we can create things. AI can't. We as human beings can lead people, can motivate, people can encourage people. AI can't From a human perspective. And as human beings, we're constantly searching for meaning. Why are we here? What's our purpose? AI can't answer that. AI doesn't understand it. AI doesn't have self awareness. So what we've got to do is to look at the very essence of being human. What is it that makes us human? It's our emotions.

Wonderful. This has been good. I'm fascinated about all these topics. Just about the human being and what makes us do what we do is so fascinating to me. So this has been really fun. Robin, if folks want to connect with you personally, what is the, what's the best way?

Well, they can go along to the EI for Change website. EI remember emotional intelligence for change number four change.com if people want to contact me directly, they can email me. Robin R O b I n i4change.com.

Okay, and we'll get everything linked up in the show notes. Everybody just scroll down on whatever app you're listening to this on and we'll have all of Robin's information there. And hey, this has been a lot of fun and thank you for coming on.

Oh, my pleasure, Robin. Thank you for having me on. And let's do a part two at some point.

Yeah, 100%. All right, take care.

Cheers. Take care.

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