GA 572 | Dealing with Burnout with Steven Langer

Come in with curiosity and find out why. Hey, you're usually on top of this and this is usually something you're great with. Is there anything that's going on that I can help clear out of the way so that you can do your job? That's a simple, straightforward piece. Don't skip those one on ones. Right. Take the time to have a one on one with your staff. Take the time to, you know, don't, don't be the last one in the meeting. The first one to leave. Step in, say hi, connect.

Today I am excited to welcome Stephen Langer to the show. Now, Stephen called in today from Canada. We don't have a lot of Canadians on the podcast, so it was super fun to connect with him. As you'll hear, I actually have some Canadian in me as well, so you'll have to hear what we talk about there at the beginning. But Stephen actually works for an organization or it's his company called well by Design. And so he's really focused on helping organizations and leaders of organizations to really live a healthy lifestyle and, and really develop a healthy workplace culture. And so to start with, out of the gate, I was a little unsure. Like, what do you really mean by healthy? Are you talking like physically fit? Are you talking mentally healthy? All of the above. And so Stephen explains that and then we really just get into how to sort of facilitate this process and what we as leaders can be doing to work with our team members and to listen to our team members and so forth. So a lot of really, really good wisdom and insight in this episode that is definitely applicable to everything all of us who care about lean and continuous improvement are all about. So good stuff. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com this is episode 572 again gembapodcast.com look for episode 572. Okay, enough from me.

Let's get to the show.

Stephen, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Thanks, Ron. Appreciate. It's a great, great day. Nice and sunshine. I appreciate the time. Yeah.

Where are you calling in from?

I'm from Edmonton in Canada today.

Okay. Well, we, we were just chatting a little bit before we hit record about my Canadian roots, you know, lived in, spent my summers in Winnipeg or as you Canadians would say, winter. Peg. In a winter, right?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Canada, man. It's. In fact, I don't. I have a sister in Kamloops, British Columbia and my other sister's in Winnipeg still. So. Yeah, so we got a lot of Connection to Canada. So, great place. So. All right. Well, hey, as you know, Stephen, we like to begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote. So what do you got?

Yeah, you bet. This one's been resonating in my mind a fair bit. It's an old Chinese proverb. Doesn't really attribute to anyone, but it's don't wait until you're thirsty to dig your well.

What's that mean?

I mean, to me, I think that everybody's working so hard, everybody's so busy and pushing so much forward in our day, and it's so complex that we don't leave space for life, which inevitably happens, and the complexities for things. And we see so many people that are burning out and stressed out and tired. And if you wait until you're burnt out to dig your well, so to speak, and start taking care of yourself, it's too late. We need to take care of it now when we're not thirsty, so that when we are, we're ready for it.

That's good, man. I like it.

I like it.

All right, well, hey, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and tell us about the line of work you're in and any other interesting things about yourself.

Yeah, thanks. I appreciate it. Yeah. My background's actually in the education sector. I did a job as a teacher. I was a VP and a principal. Went and worked for government for a while and did some executive work, all focused on teaching physical education, health, wellness, outdoor education, some math and stuff, too. But along the way, really had that opportunity to see the benefits of a healthy workplace culture and also the challenges that come from working in a not so healthy workplace or even toxic workplace culture. And at one point along the way, once I experienced my own burnout scenario, it's amazing when you start talking about it how many people are dealing with similar things. And I've always been the kind of guy that says, okay, if I'm. If I'm going to talk about it, then I need to change it. So I quit the education sector. I felt like I'd given it all I could and started my own company. Well, by design. With the idea of really working with organizations to help move forward. Healthy workplace cultures, the idea of getting to an optimal and sustainable work level rather than just pushing at peak all the time. So I do a lot of keynote speaking around the world. I also do workshops with clients directly and speaking with clients directly. And then I also actually do deeper work with clients around. What does that look like? How do we build a healthy workplace culture? Let's get the data to speak to this and let's start finding actionable solutions so that we can help move our team forward.

Okay, well, maybe as a jumping off point, maybe sort of just define a little bit about what you mean by healthy. I mean, are we talking, like, physically fit? Are we talking mental wellness? Are we talking. Yes.

Yeah. I mean, they're all interconnected. But the reality is, I mean, when you think about wellness, there are so many voices out there these days. Everything from the types of food we should eat, how we should sleep, the tech we should or should not consume, how we should spend our time with other people and by ourselves and yoga and mindfulness and all the things that it actually almost becomes exhausting and burns me out to think about it. Right.

Yeah.

And so for me, my goal is to really put people in that optimal space. Right. Work's hard. That's not going to change life's complex. We need to create space for that complexity. But what does it mean for you to be able to work in a way that's sustainable so you can actually enjoy it as well and have a little bit left to go home and enjoy your day too? We are designed to enjoy our lives, so for me, those are all interrelated. But my focus is really on creating the conditions around a culture where you've got each other's back, you know, that there's trust and you're moving forward in a space where, you know, you're trying to do the good work for your team. But also, and this is so critical, so many times in organizations, you see them so focused on strategy, so focused on product and output, so focused on, like, the strategic plan, but they're not taking the time to care about the people and make sure the people are healthy and well along the way. And, I mean, that's just such a risk because those are the people who are going to get you there. Those are the people who are going to do the work. And so if you're so pushed on all the strategy and forget your people along the way, they won't be there to move the things forward.

Okay, so, like, I lead Gamba Academy and one of the leaders, like, what, What? How do I know? Or how can I assess the healthiness, lack of a better word of my team? I mean, I, like you said, I can see if. If Jennifer and her sales team are, you know, hitting their goals and. You know what I mean? Like, those are easy to measure, right? Like the. I was easy to measure, but we can measure them. Right, but how do you, how do I know if I'm winning or if I'm losing? With. With Jennifer. And I keep picking on Jennifer, but you know, with, with it.

Yes. You really got to check on Jennifer. Yeah, right. No, you know what, it's different for each organization and I think that's critical to actually assess. It's not as simple as, well, we've got a benefits plan in employee assistance plan or you know what, we give Fridays off or we take our team on a ski trip. All those things are great. And all those things are sort of the standard things that you would see in an organization to make sure that you're taking care of your team. But for starters, ask. It sounds so simple. But just ask your team how they're doing and what they need to do their job well. Everybody wants to do well, but oftentimes they're not going to point things out because they want to appear competent and they don't want to rock the boat. So here's an example. So I was working with a client and the CEO was so proud of the fact that they don't start till 8:30. So he doesn't start meetings till 8:30. Right. Sounds great. That was the single most frustrating part for staff because if you're having a meeting at 8:30, you can't come in at 8:30. It means you have to come in at 8 so that you can check your emails, make sure you get your materials ready, grab a coffee and be ready to go. Right. So now you start at 8 instead of 8:30. Now you got to get your kids to daycare, you're driving through different traffic. It just pushes your day back. As simple solution as, hey CEO, start your meeting at night. Everything's settled now. People aren't coming in hot, they're not coming in anxious, they're coming in at a regular time. And it starts your day on the right track by asking you get what you need. The other piece is look for the, the, the unhidden, like the, the hidden pieces around your team. Obviously you can check into the laughter and into the camaraderie and into the, the fact of whether someone's going to step up. But check the data. Look at your staff's absences year over year. And if you see Jennifer has been away for three days, then five days, then six days and then 15, well, it's time to do a real deep dive into why Jennifer just escalated 10 more days into her sick leave and how can you support her?

Okay, so what's the difference then between a company with 30 employees and a company with 3,000 employees. How do you approach things? Same different. What do you think?

Yeah, I think it depends on how they design their team. You can have a real. A large company that can actually make it seem small by the way that they connect, you know, how they interact with each other and how their leadership develops and rolls out their connection strategy. At the same time, when they're a team of 30, sometimes you're taking on everything and there's not as many people to get the job done. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah, right. And so it really depends on how the organization flows. But I think at the. At the end of the day, people need a voice and they need opportunity to be able to share that so that they can clear the path. Often they know what's getting in the way of them being able to do a good job. So a lot of times you hear, okay, well, then it's probably just going to be like a Christmas wish list, right? Like, tell me all the things I get to have because of wellness and no. Right. It's still work. You still got to do a good job and you still got to earn your day's wage. But if there's something that is getting in the way, up in Canada, we always say, okay, if I can shovel the sidewalk for you so that you can walk more clearly, I will happily shovel the sidewalk. But I am not going to go and plow the road for you. I'm not giving you everything you need. You still have to work. But let me see if I can clear the path.

Yeah, it's really tricky because, I mean, if you think about just a company, what makes a strong culture?

Right.

Let me just, let me ask you that. Like, in your opinion, when you think about a company that has a strong, robust, you know, organizational culture, what does that look like?

I think there's a couple things. One, I think they. They have really strong communication, and it's communication that's done in a healthy way. We've all seen those situations where there's those underhanded comments or those backbiting comments or something that positions someone ahead of someone else at the other person's expense, those are immediate signs of toxicity. When you've got a situation where people are stepping in to help, where people are taking the time to ask how people are doing, or where the communication is free enough to challenge, you know, like, hey, are you free enough to challenge your boss and have an authentic conversation where you disagree? That speaks to a healthy culture in the first place. Yeah. Another thing that's really critical is what transition supports do you have? So a lot of times people are like, I'm protection of my bubble because I want to make sure I'm needed in the workplace. So nobody gets to know what I know. When in reality, what that does is it sets you up to not be able to go on vacation or to not be able to be sick or have any unexpected crisis because you're the gatekeeper. So rather, if you can start to build transition support so that everybody has a sense of what's going on in each other's industries and departments. Great. Because then when Steve's unexpectedly away, someone else can pick up the pieces. And it's not at Steve's threat to his job, it's just that he can then actually step away.

Okay, so someone's listening to this and they're like, yeah, Stephen F. Sounds great, man. You know, I want to care about my people and take care of them. I get it. But here's the deal. If we don't, you know, make this much money, I can't make payroll, you know, and then I don't have money to pay the salaries or whatever.

So.

So I guess how do you. How do you balance the. The needs of caring for the people and, you know, that side of it, which we all want to do with the realities of business. Like, if Steven's business isn't generating revenue, you're going to have to go get another job. You know what I mean? So how do you balance those things?

I mean, the first cheeky response I would give is, that's great. But if Jennifer's not here tomorrow to do the work, you're not going to meet those targets anyway. Yeah. And so if Jennifer is going to be away on mental health, I know. She's such a good worker. Right. Whoever Jennifer is, you're doing a great job. All right, I'll pick on Steve because I'm here and I can defend myself.

Steve.

Yeah, right. There you go. But you know what?

We used to. By the way, if.

If you don't take care of Steve, then Steve's not going to be able to do the work anyway. And research shows that as soon as you take care of your team, they are more invested. And when they're more invested, they're more productive. Right. There's a study by the Canadian center for Occupational Health and Safety that talks about the idea that when you are fatigued, you are 70% less productive than when you are normal. And I know sometimes we're thinking Like, I gotta push through, I gotta keep working. But we're working at such a decreased capacity that if we just step back, take some time for ourselves, we'll re lean in and we'll be so much more effective.

Yeah. And it's interesting. So the crowd that you're speaking to right now, we're all into this Lean manufacturing and Six Sigma continuous improvement. So we're trying to sort of reduce the struggle right out of work and make work easier to do. So you're sort of preaching to the choir right now, and everybody's going to appreciate what you just said, because that's really what we're trying to do is, you know, a key tenant of, of Lean or the Toyota production system, which is where this all sort of originated. There's two pillars, one and one. One of the, one pillar is continuous improvement. Right.

Like make things better. Right, got it.

But the other pillar is respect for people. Or really more accurately translated, and the original Japanese was respect for the humanness of people. And so it's interesting, you know, like how, you know, just even at a core tenant of Lean, without that respect for the human, the house is going to fall over.

Right.

Because you can, you can be great at all the continuous improvement tools and whatnot. But if everybody hates each other or, you know, doesn't want to be at.

The company, then, yeah, I mean, then you're losing your corporate history. Every time someone steps out the door, you're taking the time away from the work to retrain the next person who's going to be leaving in six months anyway, and it starts that vicious cycle. Right, right. One conversation I recently had with someone who does billable work, and so he's like, hey, I'm. I'm a CEO for a company that's on billables and non billables. I love the idea of wellness, but every time I'm spending time with my team away from billables, it's costing me money. So you got to shift your mindset, man. Like, if, if you're thinking that billable is where you find value and non billable is not where you find value, you're done.

Right.

Instead of non billable, you got to think of it as renewable. So it's billable and renewable hours. Because your team can't just step into billable, billable, billable. Your brain doesn't work like that. You're not going to be ready to support the client. Like, you need to be able to support the client. Those renewable hours are where you're taking time to make sure that you're ready, where you're gearing back up, where you're supporting your team, to make sure that they've got the supports that they need, where you're making sure that you're doing your research, to make sure you're cutting edge and where you're actually taking a moment to allow your brain to declutter so that you can re engage. So it's just such a mind shift of like that renewable is actually probably going to lead to better billable hours anyway.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take care of your customers, right?

I mean.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure, for sure. I'm wondering if you could maybe talk a little bit about. You know, we hear the term burnout a lot. You know, you'll hear that in various sort of business circles. What's been your experience with the folks that you're in? And maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's slanted because if they're coming to, maybe they have a problem. But like what's your experience tell about like the, the amount of burnout that you're seeing out there in the, in the corporate world? Is it like most companies are some, you know what I mean, 50%, like what's your gauge on that and then what do about it?

Yeah, I mean a lot of research shows and benefits. Canada did a study in 2023 and this is Canadian, but I checked and it's very, very similar to United States but also to Iceland where I recently spoke that 35 of the workforce is currently burnt out. 35, so like 1 in 3. And now you're thinking about those are the people that are in every sector. So they're the person sitting across from you. They're the person that's giving you road rage on your way to work. You. It helps explain that, you know, it's, it's the teacher teaching your child, you name it. I think a big thing is that every organization has staff who are towards burnout. But not many people are going to tell you unless you create that culture of trust, unless you allow that to be a supported space. And I think that burnout, it's not just like flick on burnt out or flick on not like a light switch. I think it happens over time and it happens in stages and along the way you can start to see how people are shifting their work so that are they, are they staying continually involved? Are they starting to contribute less in meetings, are they starting to not be so excited about the next project? Or maybe they're not the One that's going to be coming by and stopping by to talk anymore. They're starting to disengage and they're starting to like, you know, almost like depersonalize themselves from the space. And I think a lot of times it happens innocuously. Like, you start out, you know, trying to do a good job and you push a little bit harder and maybe you work a little bit later one week, and next thing you know, you're. You're up against it and you've worked too hard and it's hard to get caught up. So to me, I think. I think it's. It's significant. It's in every organization and it really impacts the productivity.

So what does it look like? I know that's kind of a. Just a general question, but, like, how can you tell when someone. Or how can you tell when yourself. You yourself are burnt out? Like, what is that? Just like, I'm working too many hours? Or could you be burnt out and still only work 40 hours? You know what I mean?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I think it comes from different sources and it comes from. From different ways. But a lot of times burnout happens when there's a misalignment in your role to your passions and your values. And so if you're doing things that aren't in your core area of strength and you're doing things where you're not actually aligned to the work that you're. Then a lot of times it's easier to burn out because you're not connected and invested in that. That work. Similarly, sometimes people work incredible amounts of hours, but they're so passionate about what they're doing that it's just like they just get energy from working. Right. Sometimes burnout has nothing to do with work at all. It can have everything to do with what's going on in their home life, or it can be in another sphere. It can have everything to do with a relationship with a colleague, and it starts to just really dwindle down the relationship. So it's different for each person. But what you start to see is more disconnection, less investment in the work. Those comments start to be a little bit sharper. You know, they're not as quick to jump in and support those types of things where you start to see people step back and be a little bit more depersonalized from what they used to be. Those are. Those are some of the telltale signs, at least.

Okay, so why don't you now just. I'm going to ask you to speak to Two different people. We'll start.

Cool. Yeah.

Start with the, the, the, the manager. Okay. Of, of, of a team and speak to them about like, what are some things that they should be looking out for with respect to burnout? And then the, the second side of it is I want you to speak to the employee who's burned out and maybe they're scared to, I don't know, do anything about it. Like so speak to both of those people, but they're in very different situations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100. That's like a three hour workshop that I do. Yeah. All good. To the manager, there's some simple things that you can do just to make sure you're doing regular check ins. You know, you usually do the pop by and you say hi, you check in on how your staff are doing and then two minutes later like, okay, what I need from you today is that. Yeah, right. As soon as you do that, you've lost the pleasantries. It doesn't mean anything anymore because they're just waiting for you to come and tell them what's next to do. So stop by that person's office and have a conversation and then walk away. Because then it's actually like, oh, they actually stopped by to care about me. When your leadership takes time to care, it shows that they're invested and they will have more likelihood of staying. You'll also get those nuggets, right? Ask, hey, how are you doing? How was your weekend? What's in your way this week and how can I help Clear it out of the way. Right? Actually ask those questions with genuine intent rather than, you know, like the basic, like, how's it going? You know, that's the first thing. The second thing is if you're noticing that your staff productivity, if someone's productivity is dipping, remember you hired them for a reason. You hired them because they had value and they want to provide value. So if it's not happening, come in with curiosity and find out why. Hey, you're usually on top of this and this is usually something you're great with. Is there anything that's going on that I can help clear out of the way so that you can do your job well. That's a simple, straightforward piece. Don't skip those one on ones. Take the time to have a one on one with your staff. Take the time to, you know, don't, don't be the last one in the meeting, the first one to leave. Step in, say hi, connect, right. And have an opportunity. I was in a workshop just this past week where I had a participant that was actively disengaged, like, was not interested in this presentation, and I wasn't sure how I was going to get this person back. And so what I did was at coffee time, I noticed he was wearing a sweater that had, like, some logo on it that was for a volunteer organization. So I said, hey, are you a part of that? And yeah, yeah, you know what? My brother actually runs it, and I've been invested in it for the last 10 years, and it's really important work. And so I just asked him some questions and then at the end said, hey, thanks for sharing. Immediately right back engaged.

Wow.

He was into it. And at the end, he came up and specifically said to me, he's like, hey, thanks. I actually enjoyed that a whole lot more than I thought I would. And I think it had to do with the fact that I connected with him. And so he invested back in me, Right? So that's what I'd say to the manager, take the time to do those things. Now to the employee, right? You don't have to be a martyr, but you also need to do your work. If you're feeling it again, your staff, your ma, your manager is not going to know what's going on unless you're willing to tell them, right? They are not mind readers, and they got a million things on the go. So take the time to go and say, hey, just so you know, I got a lot going on at home, so I'm going to be doing my best. But if something's going on, this is why as soon as you open up that door, right, It. It allows them to see your humanity, and it allows them to see that, like, hey, like, I'm. I'm committed to the work, but this is what's going on. Going on, right? The second piece is nobody thinks it's going to happen to them until it does. And so oftentimes people are like, I just got to keep pushing through, right? I got to go. I got to push through. I got to keep working harder and harder, and I got to get. You know, it'll. It'll end. No, it won't. Unless you actually make active changes to invest in yourself, it won't. So do something about it instead of push through or else you will burn out. And as I said, don't wait till you're thirsty to dig your well, right? If you wait till you're burnt out to start taking care of yourself, it's going to be a whole lot harder than if you do it along the way. Yeah.

Wow, that's so good. That's so good. Maybe to wrap things up, I'm wondering if, you know, maybe someone's sitting out there saying, hey, you know, we've got good benefits package, we've got more vacation than most companies, you know, and they feel like they're maybe checking the boxes, you know, accordingly. But I don't know, maybe I don't. Maybe they're skeptical, like we don't need anything else or whatever. Like, can you speak to that person, you know, just respectfully of, of why they really should be thinking about all the things that we've been talking about.

Yeah, 100%. So many times when you turn over the rock, you find things that you didn't expect to think. Think about going out the ocean, right? And you flip over the rock and all the crabs are there. All of a sudden it's always scurrying away and you flip over the next rock. Same thing. As a leader in your organization, it's incumbent upon you to provide the basic things. The benefits plan, the supports, the time off. Every organization has that. But what is it that makes your team different? That people can stand behind this? This is why I choose to work here and stay here. Right. So if your team is doing well now, great. Does that mean that you're not going to be open minded about the idea that there could be ways to actually enhance what you're doing and not at a cost. Right. So ask the questions, dig in and find out. So if your team, if you think your team's doing good, fantastic. Are you sure? Here's an example. I was working with a company and they said, you know, we don't have to ask about our employee assistance plan. We know we have it, we already got it. It's like, let's just ask about it anyway. Well, what we found out was only 60% of the staff even knew that they had that program. And 0% of their staff had ever accessed it. And then further, 80% of their staff was saying, hey, if only we had some more formal benefits, support around wellness, that would be really nice. It's like, it's right here. It's right here in front of you. If you wouldn't have turned over that rock, you would have just assumed that everything's going well. Now you have a clear path to promoting your eap, which is exactly what people want by asking about it.

Wow, that's interesting. Yeah. Like, yeah, if you don't ask, you know, or you just assume. Right. It's easy to do.

Right.

It's Very easy to do.

So it sounds so simple, right?

Yeah.

You know, and honestly, like, think about it. Out of self preservation, half the time people don't want to come forward. Right. To tell you what's wrong. Right. Because they want to. They want to be in line for the next promotion, they want the next race. They don't want to be seen as a wire complainer. Right.

Like that. Yeah.

But if you genuinely create a situation where it's like, no, I actually want to know and I want you to help us move forward. The opportunity is there.

Or maybe, you know, in a similar way, let's assume maybe employee does step forward with courage and, and, you know, share something with the leadership, and leadership doesn't respond in a very positive light. Boy, yeah, that's devastating then. Because that's spread like wildfire, man.

And yeah, you want to, you want to do the worst thing ever. It's do an employee engagement survey, get all the information, and then do none of it. Because that's a way to break trust in a hurry. Right, Right.

Exactly.

Wow.

Good stuff. All right, well, hey, this has been a fun conversation. Steve and I really appreciate you.

Yeah, thanks, Ron.

If folks wanted to connect with you personally, what's the, what's the best way?

Yeah, yeah, thanks. I've enjoyed the conversation too. Please do connect. WellByDesign CA is my website and I'm on LinkedIn at Stephen Langer. Love an opportunity to connect. Just to start the dialogue. I have a lot of free resources on my LinkedIn page for magazine articles and such focused on the workplace, so please reach out. Awesome.

Yeah. And everybody just scroll down on, on the app or whatever you're listening to this on. We'll have all of Steven's linked stuff linked up. So yeah, be sure to go connect. And again, thanks for coming on, man. It's been, been a lot of fun.

Awesome. Thank you. All right, take care.

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