GA 582 | Living Conditionally vs. Unconditionally with Andy Crocker

Every experience is positive because we learned something. And you know, it's a cliche that you learn more from your failures than from your successes, but absolutely, you have to fail in order to succeed. You have to fail and learn where you went wrong, where you can be better. If we always succeed, we never realize that we can get better.

Today I'm excited to welcome Andy Crocker to the show. Now, as you'll hear, Andy has a really fascinating background. He's, I think, I don't know know. I'm pretty sure he's the first sort of like rocket engineer that we've ever had on the, on the podcast. And so he'll tell you a little bit more about his background here at the very beginning. But really the, the, the majority of the conversations today centers around a book that, that he just released. In fact, on the day of we're recording it here is when it came out. So by the time this comes out, it would have been out for a little while. But what I thought, how we did. I don't normally do this, but I pulled up the book on like Barnes and Nobles and, and I just want to sor. I won't read all of it, but I just want to read the introduction to the book so its five core values can help us live more fulfilled and successful lives, no matter what's happening around us. So after spending five years leading a team competing against Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos to return humans to the moon, a once in a lifetime opportunity that ended in heartbreak, aerospace engineer Andy Crocker found himself searching for what truly matters. That loss, coupled with his realization that his kids were nearly grown, sparked a desire to pass on the values he believed believes are essential for living a meaningful life. The unconditionals is the result. A framework grounded in timeless principles to help anyone pursue personal fulfillment and well being. So yeah, so that's sort of a official explanation or description of the book. And so what we did on the podcast is we're sort of just dig into that a little bit. He gets more into the sort of the personal story and, and even on the emotional side, like what did it feel like to get so close and, and then sort of like not win because you know, most people don't come into a podcast and talk about how they've lost and what they learned about it. So I really appreciated that and just, just a really good deep in conversation and I really appreciated his openness and his honesty and even his vulnerability. So really, really good stuff. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com, just look for episode five, eight, two again, gemba podcast.com and look for episode 582. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Andy, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Great, Don. Thanks so much. Glad to be here.

Yeah. Where are you calling in from?

Huntsville, Alabama. All right. Roll Tide or, you know, I'm non committal. I didn't go to either Alabama school, so I can cheer for both. It allows me to be a bandwagon fan and get away with it.

There you go. There you go. Well, I grew up in Ohio, so I'm a Buckeye, and I'm down in Texas, so it's not always, Always easy down here, but, you know.

Yeah, yeah, I understand.

Yeah, yeah.

So, Eddie. Yeah.

Well, good stuff, man. Well, you know, Andy, we like to get all of our shows started with our guest show and a quote. So do you have one?

I do, yeah. And actually thought about, you know, what your show is kind of about, and found a quote that I think fits well with your show, but also kind of what. What I'll be talking about. So it's by William Faulkner, obviously, American writer, Nobel Prize winner, and it's, don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.

Yeah.

And obviously that's, you know, a lot about, don't worry about what other people are doing. Don't compare yourself to others. Worry about yourself. Try to be the best person you can be. And it's also clearly about always trying to be better, continuously improve. Right. So both of those things are relevant.

That's hard to do, though, isn't is.

It is. It's a. It's a constant, you know, constant activity, constant striving, I think, through our whole lives.

They say comparison is the thief of joy or something like that.

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right. Well, good stuff. Well, hey, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell Andy. Tell us about your background, how you first got involved in all this continuous improvement stuff and what you're up to these days.

Yeah, so my background was in aerospace. I'm an aerospace engineer here in Huntsville, Alabama. We like to call it Rocket City. And. And I am a rocket scientist, so it's not that special. Here in Huntsville, you can't swing a stick without hitting a rocket scientist. But. But I know in other parts of the country, people are like, ooh, rocket science. But it's a great career. I've been doing it for 30 years and really been constantly Working on space programs, whether it's NASA or commercial space or even defense space programs, which is getting more and more relevant today. So that's been a great career. It's been a lot of fun projects have been really fun. But I've also constantly been involved in leadership through my career and through things outside of work and, and then constantly. I'm very interested in the humanities as well. So I like to write and I like to read and learn new things. So always kind of dabbling in those things. But for me, continuous improvement. It's a big part of aerospace and defense. It's always a huge emphasis point and I've certainly taken that to heart personally. It's just kind of part of who I am. So constantly working on ways that I can be better and then especially recently the thinking about how can I impart to my kids and maybe even to other people how we as people can be better.

So I know as we were preparing for this conversation, you were sharing a pretty, pretty cool story. I don't know if I've ever. Well, I'm positive in many hundreds of episodes that we've had, I've not talked a lot about NASA and I understand that, well, a few years ago that you had the opportunity to, to work on a, on a, on a NASA program and perhaps you were going up against some, some folks people may have heard of name like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and a few other notable folks. So what was going on with all of that? Tell us about that.

Yeah, I'd be happy to. Yeah, it's interesting right now it's almost exactly two years since that project ended for me, so it's definitely something I've thought a lot about. But, but a number of NASA decided that it was time to go back to the moon with, with humans. Obviously it's been a long time and when, when they made that announcement publicly, it had been almost 50 years since the last really the first lunar lander, but almost since the last one as well. And I just thought that was an amazing project for, for a rocket scientist like me, it's, it's the holy grail. Doing a crude lunar lander, working on that is just the pinnacle. And so I jumped in, I convinced my company management to jump in and we went after it and we're lucky enough to play a role. And kind of coming out of nowhere, we were sort of an unknown. And as things evolved, we ended up competing directly against Blue origin, Jeff Bezos company and SpaceX, Elon Musk's company and the three of us were the three companies competing. So it was a little surreal and as I say in my book, the Unconditionals, it felt like competing against those two individuals. You know, it's, it's daunting, but, but it was, it was a thrilling opportunity and the team just loved it. It was something where you dream about it, but when you're in the middle of it, it's all about how do you, how do you get better every day, how do you improve your design and improve the way that you sell it to NASA and all those things. And for us, unfortunately, it did have an end a couple of years ago, but the opportunity itself was amazing.

So. Okay, to make sure, I understand, did you, were you able to participate or you.

Okay, we did, yeah. So we had a contract with NASA, in fact, several contracts. And the way that it evolved, we.

Beat Bezos and those guys, or we.

Did, yeah, we beat a number of other companies. There were, you know, Lockheed Martin and Boeing and other large companies and ones you've heard of and you haven't, to get to the three companies, our company and the two others. And we all had large contracts to do the first steps of, of development of this lunar lander. And the way that NASA had it set up is you do this first step and then you, you propose to move to the next. And that proposal involves, you know, a multibillion dollar proposal which, you know, we submitted ours and the others submitted theirs, and, and NASA makes a determination. And the first time around, SpaceX won. And as I say in my book, they were able to include in their proposal a very large investment that SpaceX was capable of doing and we weren't. So we didn't get to move on. But NASA decided they wanted a second competitor. So it was really, it was literally our company and Blue Origin competing head to head on contract, but competing for the next opportunity. And once again, we, we weren't able to invest quite as much money and NASA selected Blue Origin and SpaceX and Blue Origin are still under contract with NASA moving forward, but we weren't able to. But at the time we were right in the thick of it and building hardware and working with astronauts day to day. It was a real, a fun ride.

So then how does that, what does that feel like, you know, at the end of it when you ultimately didn't, you know, get to proceed? Were you, it, were you grateful? All of the above or.

You know, the first feeling is, is devastated, right? The first feeling is that, you know, you know, that it could happen and you try to prepare yourself mentally for that eventuality, but when it happens, you. You're never quite ready for it. So devastation. Absolutely. And, and the way that those things happen, when you, you have a big team, you're under a contract, you have literally hundreds of people working on it together, that team has to disperse, they all go work on other things because, you know, we don't have that contract anymore. So it's, it's. It's a little like a death in that, you know, you lose your friends, you lose your, Your contract, you lose the, the energy and all those things over time. Yeah. And in fact, a big part of, now that I look back, a big part of getting over that was putting down on paper thoughts that, that I wanted to. To pass on that really have to do with values. And at the time, I wasn't aware of it, but I realize now that it was losing that contract that made me think, okay, what's really important, you know, what, what really matters? Yeah, this would have been cool, and it was a lot of fun when we did it. But. But is that really, that achievement really what matters? Is that really what I'm about to, you know, is that what my legacy, so to speak, is? And I realized, no, it's, it's about the values that, that I have and the values that I can pass along to my kids and maybe even share with other people that I come in contact with.

Okay, well, I'm wondering. I mean, thanks for being transparent and vulnerable, even with a lot of people don't talk about when they lose. Right. So super honorable of you to come on and talk about this, but I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about, you know, after such a, you know, devastating loss, like, what were, like, the key takeaways from that? Like, did it leave you better than you were, you think, or.

Yeah, I'll say just generically. I think every learning experience, whether it's a positive one because we did succeed what we're trying to do, or we failed it. We were trying to do. Every experience is. Is positive because it. We learn something. And you know, it's a cliche that you learn more from your failures than from your, from your successes, but absolutely, you have to fail in order to succeed. You have to fail and learn where, where you went wrong, where you can be better. If we always succeed, we never realize that we can get better. Right. And, and that's true, obviously, in continuous improvement, we. We have to look for those things where, where we have weaknesses, we have Mistakes. We have places where things can go wrong, and then many times they do go wrong. So coming out of that loss, obviously for a while, you think about, well, what am I going to do now? And even in the last couple of years, I've thought a lot about what do I really want to do? And truthfully, literally in the last couple of months or even couple of weeks, I've realized a big part of what I want to do is learn more myself, but also share with others. What are, what are values about? And, and why should we really have values? And then how do we live those values unconditionally? Which is really what my, my book is about.

Okay, well, that sort of leads me into my next question. I mean, so I know that you're, that you're, you like to kind of compare and contrast the whole idea between living conditionally and versus unconditionally. So start with just sort of definitions like what does that mean?

Right, right. So for me, obviously, we all have values. Whether we admit it or not, and whether we even realize it or not, we all have values. Some of them we will admit to and others we want to hide, maybe, but we have values. And what, what is the difference between conditional and unconditional is if, if those values and the way that we behave and the act those values out change based on the circumstances, if they change based on who we come in contact with, how they treat us, how they look, what, what our chances of success are, then it's unconditional. We, we aren't acting out those values no matter what. And obviously unconditional is no matter what the circumstances are. We, we will do our best to act out those values. And, and to me, as I went through the process of really understanding what, what I think the most important values are, I came to the realization that it's really important for us to strive, at least strive for unconditionality. We know we'll never be perfect there. You know, we're continuously improving, we're continuously working on ourselves. And unconditional is, is an ideal for us to strive for. But, but having that as the ideal means that we can really focus on what are the values that we want to live and, and want to imbue on our, our kids, on our, on our friends, on our loved ones and share with them no matter what happens. And, and that's really what I think is, is a key point that we need to keep in mind.

Yeah, I mean, you often, all of us will from time to time, even loosely throw around the phrase unconditional love, right? Like, it's just a real common phrase that we've all heard many, many times, right? But I feel like it's really. That's a really profound statement. Unconditional love, right? Like, that's. It's easy to say, but you know, you get into a. I mean, raising teenagers, man, you know, like, I'm in the middle of it, you know, and it's tough. I mean, I always love them, but my gosh, you know, like, what were you thinking? Right? So, I mean, talk a little bit. Memoir, maybe on the professional side, like, what does it really mean to have this sort of unconditional. I don't want to use the love in the corporate world is difficult, but you know what I'm saying, like, it is.

Well, I'm glad you brought it up. So for me, and that's really where it started is I, as I really tried to figure out where to go with these values, you know, I was thinking about how do I impart on my kids, you know, and eventually how do I put into a. A book format the things that I think are important? And for me, it all, it all came back to love. It always starts with unconditional love. That's the foundation of everything else. And I think it even applies at work. It is hard, you know, saying love at work feels icky, right? And even sometimes, you know, feels inappropriate. But I talk about this in my book the Unconditionals, that when you really look at it, you have to look at other people, whether they're at work or in your home or across the globe. You have to think about them unconditionally, the same way it's. They're human, right? They deserve the same respect and kindness and compassion as anybody does. So that needs to be what we strive for. And so love is the foundation. And then going from that, are, are the other values that I talk about. Gratitude, integrity, accountability and endeavor. And really in the workplace, the ones that we probably think about the most are integrity and accountability and certainly endeavor, which is, which is a longer one. But, you know, integrity is. How do we behave when it's hard, you know, when, when the, when it requires moral courage, right, to, to step up and stand up for, for. For what we believe in. Are we going to depend on these circumstances, you know, with accountability, Are we going to wait to see how it's going to work out for us? Or are we going to be accountable and own it no matter what? And that's what really, I think impacts us in the workplace is, you know, if we're a leader showing that we're going to stand up and own it no matter what. And the folks that work with us and for us need to see that because we need to develop that culture.

Yeah, I was actually. I just googled it real fast while we were talking to make sure I got my terms right. But what you've been talking about reminds me of, like, I'm a big Thomas Aquinas nerd.

And.

And, you know, he proposed two types of love, Agape and eros. Right. And so. Or eros, I don't E R E S O S. Right. So, you know, so eros is like sort of like that romantic love that you might have for your. Your significant other or something like that. Whereas agape is then sort of that whole idea of willing the best or willing the good of another person.

Right.

And so, but this. This agape love is, I think, probably what you're talking about in most cases. Right, right. And. But it's. Gosh, it's tough, right, because it's. You almost have to lay your. Well, even willing, you know, even romantic love, you gotta put the others before you. Right. And wish the best for them and sacrifice for them and so forth. But, yeah, it's really interesting just thinking about the roots of what these words mean, because when we say love, it's just so you immediately think of, you know, Valentine's Day and all the rest of it. But it's much deeper than that, right?

It is. And the word love has so much baggage. Right. In our culture, there's so many different ways to look at it and talk about it. But yeah, Thomas Aquinas, I quote in my book, I really dive into what C.S. lewis talked about. He's got a book, the Four Types of Love, and really talks through those. Romantic love, friendship love, social love. But agape, you know, he brings up the same. Same thing. And that's unconditional love. He calls it God love. Martin Luther King Jr. Talks about agape and an unconditional love. And it's really powerful coming from him because, you know, he was dealing with a situation where he, you know, he. He felt and experienced hate on a daily basis. But. But yet he talked about the importance of us all both experiencing the hate and, and those who are. Are giving out the hate, turning towards unconditional love, and, and that that's really what we should be striving for. So to me, again, that's foundational, but it also to me, taught me that that unconditional. It's not just with Love. It's with gratitude, it's with integrity, it's with accountability. Unconditional is really what we should be shooting for. It's. It's not. We're never going to reach it. It's like, you know, driving towards the sun. But you, you strive for it, because if when you do that, and this is something that I hadn't thought about until I really wrote the book, it actually makes it easier on us because you can release all of that pressure to figure out, well, how should I act? You know, how should I behave towards this person? How should I behave in this situation? What do I need to give to it? And the fact is, it shouldn't depend on those things. It should depend on what your value is or what your values are. And those things should drive your behavior and your actions. Even when you fall short, you're striving for that.

Yeah. You know, many people listening are continuous improvement practitioners. And we all know the whole idea of Kaizen, you know, just small incremental changes. Again, just consistently just keep turning that wheel and things are going to get better. I'm wondering if you could sort of maybe compare and contrast this whole idea of unconditional values and love, and does it mirror the same kind of idea as it pertains to leadership?

I think it does. I actually was listening to the interview you did with James Clear a little while ago, and. Great interview. I love his book and I thought he made a great point. That really does. In fact, I quote him and his book in my book. It's great. But he talks about the fact that we implement these small habits, these incremental steps toward the type of person we want to be. Right. It's not. We're not shooting for an outcome. We are behaving as the person we want to be. We're behaving as a person who exercises. We're behaving as a person who eats the right things. Right. The same is true with the unconditionals. We are behaving consistent with those values. You know, I. I need to act consistent with integrity, consistent with the unconditional accountability that I want to have in my life. And yeah, I'm not always going to get there, but if I take the steps in that direction and incrementally improve, you know, yesterday I made a mistake, but today I remember that mistake and I'm going to do better. Right. Those steps toward the values, toward who you want to be, I think is what behaving with or embodying the unconditionals is about and the same is true in leadership. You know, we're going to be perfect leaders. We're going to make mistakes, but we. We take steps in the direction of the values that we want to embody, the culture that we want to put in place with. With our teams, the way we want to treat our employees, our teammates, our, you know, our friends. And those steps will move us in the right direction over time and toward those unconditional values that we think are the ones we should. Should have.

So talk. I want to talk a little bit about just values in general, because, you know, many companies, you go into their. Their place of work and they'll have the big beautiful poster up on the wall with their. Whatever it is, you know, their. Their. Their mottos and their. Their values might be listed out and integrity and this and that, and. And sometimes I feel like it's. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure it was done with good intention, but it's kind of like I'm interacting with these folks over here and I'm not seeing a match, you know, or whatever, you know, like, how do we. How do we first of all identify values and who should do it right for the organization?

Yeah, Well, I do believe that the leaders set the tone. And I talk in, in the unconditionals about. Even about mission statements and vision statements where, you know, the leaders are responsible for setting out what are the things that we believe. And I think they should have real. Those soft kinds of values, like love. I mean, I truly believe that having love in your mission statement as a business is a good move, would convey a message that would be a strong one to the employees. But whether you believe in that or not, integrity, accountability, those things need to be written down either as those words. Exactly. Or things that are derived from those words. And then clearly, what's more important is actually acting those things out. And again, it may have been the James Clear episode or another one where someone on your podcast said the company culture comes from the habits, comes from the way people behave, not from what's written down. You can write it down all you want, but unless your people act it out, and it starts with the leaders, so the leaders show this is what we really believe in by acting that out, and then the people follow suit. And the best cultures I've been in are the ones where the employees see the leaders behaving with the kinds of values that they signed up for when they started, you know, at the company. And therefore, the people feel comfortable, they feel like they're aligned they feel, you know, like, hey, I can get behind this. And there's a. There's a purpose I believe in mission wise, but there's a purpose I believe in just people wise that, that I want to support.

Yeah, I love it that you mentioned, like, you know, James Clear and these folks like this. The whole idea of, like, I'm a big. I'm a big habit person. It's just sort of how I, I'm kind of habitual in my life, like sort of get up and follow the same routine and, you know, even when it comes to my work is sort of like have a. Preparing for a podcast. There's a. There's a process. Right. And, yeah, habit stacking, whatever it might be. And I. And I actually feel like that's a. I don't know. At least for me. I don't tell other people how to live their lives, but like having this sort of consistency of purpose. Right. And can go a long way to, you know, I don't know, having a consistent, stable, hopefully happy life.

Exactly. Yeah. Stability is a great word for it. It's. And I said that in the book too, that, you know, unconditional is stable, conditional is unstable. You don't know how you're going to behave. You don't know what's going to happen because you don't know the circumstance. You can control your own circumstance, your own behavior, and therefore you can maintain that stability based on your desire to. To align with and act along with your values. Whereas if you just wait to see what happens and then. And then act. Yeah, it's going to be unstable and you're going to. You're going to realize, you know, you don't have control and you're not able to see things through the way you really want.

Yeah. Good stuff, man. Well, hey, this has been a been a fun conversation. Again, talk a little bit more about the book and where you can get it and I guess Amazon and all the rest of it.

Yeah. Yeah, perfect. Thanks. Thanks for the opportunity. So it's called the Unconditionals. Five timeless values to live without limits and ignite your superpower actually comes out today. Oh, yeah.

So by the time this comes out, it'll be a available.

That's right. That's right. I realize that people will see it a few days from now, but exciting for me. So it's. It's on Amazon, it's on Apple Books, it's on, you know, Barnes and Noble. You can get it in physical copy or ebook format. And please check it out. It's I, I really had a ball writing it, but I'm also super excited to, you know, have a little impact on, on other individuals as they are able to look at things a different way and maybe, you know, really support their values towards unconditionality and try to impart that in their lives.

I've never published a book, so I'm curious, like, how do you feel on the day that it's. That you clicked on Amazon and you saw it, you know.

Yeah, well, I think the, the most real feeling probably is, is having it in your hand. Right. You know, getting the proof copy, whether it's from Amazon or somebody else getting the hardback. I mean, I think everybody who, who loves books, you know, the hardback is, is the ultimate. So having the. Opening it, doing the unboxing video and, but, but actually having it in your hand, that's a, That's a real moment. But yeah, absolutely. Knowing that this day was coming and, and having, knowing that friends and family and, and, and maybe even eventually people I don't know will. Yeah, we'll look at the book and, and read some things that, you know, I, I truly believe in and think can be very impactful on our lives. It's a, It's a great feeling.

Nice. Well, congratulations.

Thanks.

On getting it out there. That's. That's fantastic. I look forward to checking it out myself, so thanks, Ron.

I really appreciate that.

Okay, well, hey, if folks wanted to connect with you, what's the best way?

Yeah, best way is Andy CrockerBooks.com very simple. AndyCrockerBooks.com and talks about the book. Talks about. Talks about the unconditionals a little bit, but that's a great way to connect. And you can, you can go to contacts and you reach out to me directly. We'd love to hear from you.

Okay. Yeah. And we'll get it all linked up here in the show notes. So everybody just scroll down on whatever you're listening to and.

Perfect.

And go connect with Andy. All right, well, hey, thanks again and this has been a lot of fun.

Yeah, Ron, I really appreciate it, really have enjoyed your podcast and excited to be on, so thanks so much.

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