GA 583 | Misconceptions About Lean with Alen Ganic

There's a real lean and a fake lean. Most people unfortunately fake it. What I mean by that, they don't really develop people. They don't really go and take the lean approach. It's a culture, it's a way of changing culture. You have to start seeing through different lens.

Today I am excited to welcome Alan Gannick back to the show. Now, Alan's been on the show a few times and I've known Alan for many, many actually now does work for Gemba Academy as one of our senior coaches. And so today we really sort of, it was a wide ranging conversation. We kind of kicked things off, talking just about some of the, maybe some misconceptions about lean and continuous improvement. And then we really just kind of just naturally navigate. In fact, we didn't even have a plan to do this. But I just sort of took it the direction of really getting into the people side of lean and maybe like the human behavioral side of lean. And when things, things maybe aren't going well because many times, you know, lean is hard, continuous improvement is hard, and sometimes things don't always go smoothly. So I wanted to pick Alan's brain on what he does and what some of his techniques are. If he's maybe interacting with someone who maybe they're not, maybe they were originally on board a little bit with this thing called continuous improvement. But then for whatever reason, they're like, nah, man, they're losing interest or they're just not doing well. Like, what do you do in those tough situations? And so again, Alan's got an incredible amount of experience with many, many, many years of on the Gemba work with, with Lean. And so his, his wisdom is, is profound. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com look for episode 583. Again gemba podcast.com look for episode 583. Okay, enough from me.

Let'.

Alan, welcome back to the show. How's it going?

Thank you, Ron. It's going very well.

Yeah, well, it's always nice to. We are recording this here in Gemba Academy Studio and so it's always fun to do these in person interviews. Man, I appreciate you coming in so well. Alan, you've been on the show a number of times and you know the drill. We like to get things started with our guest sharing a quote. So what do you got?

All right, I'm going to share a quote from Jeff Leiker. He's the author of Toyota Way. I really like this quote, especially for this episode today. Respect for people means developing them it means challenging them to improve and supporting them as they grow.

What's that mean to you?

Well, this really aligns with Lean. Really is. Is developing people, make them understand lean and have them be able to improve themselves. So the leadership role is really developing people and give them the ability to learn and grow. Mm. Mm.

Awesome. All right, well, Alan, in case folks didn't catch you on our previous episodes, tell us a little bit about. About your background and maybe how. How you got involved with this. This company called Gemba Academy.

That's a good one. So, yes, I'll start with the background a little bit. I know some people that have listened before to the podcast. They probably know. And I apologize for. Keep repeating, but I have about 25 years of experience in Lean. Started in automotive industry, in manufacturing, where I have learned lean on the floor for about two years with Sensei's. I've done lean in manufacturing government for 14 and a half years. And that's how I got to know Gamba Academy. When we were looking for someone, I had to train many people at once, like hundreds of people, and I just couldn't produce enough content. Back then, we didn't have all these great YouTube videos, and we were searching for something that can give me a content that I can use for my training. And we picked three companies, and among those three companies was Gamba Academy. And the reason why we picked Gamba is because of the content that Gamba had. Video content was really professionally done. We loved that. And first time we received it from Gamba was on dvd. And shortly after, you guys switched to the online version, which we really liked much more. But DVD was fine back then. Everybody had DVD players, and that's how we trained everybody. And then the other content that we liked about is quizzes. Want to test somebody's knowledge? Not really to pass or fail, but to test as your facilitators. You want to see, you know, did you do a good job explaining everything or not? And if everybody fails on a sudden question, that means you feel the need to clarify a little bit more. And so that's how I got to know Gambacam. We selected you guys. And Steve Cain, who was with Gambacam, came and visited us and did Gamba Life with us. So we became a gambacadem customer. He did a Gamba Life. He was really, really impressed with some of the work the city, Grand Rapids, has done regarding to Lean. And then that's where I found out from Steve about Paul Akers. He remembers saying to me, ellen, you know, Paul Akers. I said, no. He said, you remind me of Paul Akers. Who's this guy, you know? He said, you gotta, you know, get his book in a two second lean. And so that's how we started relationship with Gamb Academy. And now recently for almost a year now in a week is going to be a year with Gamba Academy. I joined Gamba Academy. There was a position open to be a lean Six Sigma coach. And I'm really never planned that, but I'm really blessed and grateful to have the ability to be part of this great team.

Yeah, well, we love having you, man. You know, I want to. You mentioned DVDs and. Oh my gosh, I'll tell a little, little story. I don't know if, I don't know if we've ever publicly shared this. I'll. I hope I don't get in trouble by it.

I'm.

Well, I'm on the owner, so I'm going to get a new fire myself.

Exactly.

But, but in the early days of Gamba Academy. I'm talking about early days, okay. We didn't have this big beautiful studio that you see now. And we. The studio was the original studio of Gemba Academy was a spare bedroom in my house.

Wow.

Yeah. And. Well, you mentioned DVDs. I was the DVD producer. I had bought this tower to where you could burn DVDs. You know, like you put the master one on top and then you can load, I think, I don't know, five or six blank ones and the little trays below. And then you hit the button or whatever the software, and you burn DVDs. Well, like as we, every course we made, we had to, you know, put on these DVDs. And so I, when people would buy them, it was just in time manufacturing. And I'd be up there, burn, I'd be like creating the content because I was also the guy in all the videos and I was writing the videos, all the scripts and everything. And so as I'm, I'm burning DVDs throughout the day and packaging them up and maybe I hired my kids a little bit. They didn't get paid, I don't think. But man, we remember the binders.

Yes. Binder, huge binders.

Binder, huge binder. Yeah. Just slid them in the little plastic sleeve there. Oh my gosh, that brings back memories.

But yeah, that was, that was the best thing back then, you know, it was a high quality. We really liked it. You know, we moved from VHS to DVDs. Yeah. So DVDs was cool, right? Back then. And then when you guys came online was even better. Much easier. Right? Wow.

So good. Good, good, good. All right. Well, hey, I want to kind of jump in. You know, obviously you got a. A really deep, strong, lean background. And when we think about Lean, we often immediately, and it's not wrong, but we often immediately think of manufacturing. Lean manufacturing.

Right.

Like, that's sort of the two sides of a coin.

Right.

For many people. But for you, I'm wondering, like, how would you define Lean at its core?

That's a great question. So I'm going to go back to the manufacturing why people think lean is for manufacturing. Because that's where it started initially. It started initially. And if you pick one of these older books, you know, from 70s, 80s, maybe 90s, they talk mostly about manufacturing. Yeah. That's where Lean was born. However, shortly after that changed, people figured out that Lean can be applied anywhere. Right. And people found out what Lean really was about. It's not about manufacturing. It's not about manufacturing process improvement. What Lean really meant and what Lean really is is a culture. Number one, that's an organizational culture. You have to think differently. And then another thing is Lean is all about respect for people. And what that means is that everybody has to respect. So managers have to respect their employees and get their input. When they have problems and they're searching for solutions, why doesn't matter what environment they're in. People that do the job every single day, what people figure out are the biggest experts. Just because somebody's a boss, manager, has a nice degree, doesn't mean he's the expert, doesn't make him an expert. So people figure that out. In healthcare, for example, environment, we have so many customers right now. They're doing great job. I'm so impressed with them and their accomplishment in healthcare, government. We were just speaking about city Grand Rapids. So that's one pillar, one most important pillar that I loved and why I fell in love. I love it. Lean is respect for people. So that's the main pillar for me. The other one is continuous improvement. Doesn't matter if there's a process. If you're a student and listening right now, you can improve. The way you organize your homework, the way you take notes during the class. Lynn can teach you that. And I've been teaching them. My kids. I'm teaching my kids in promet Kata. Coaching kata, for example, okay, they're college students and work in these jobs, you know, pizza shops and other places. But they're learning and applying in those jobs. And while they're going through college and school, so it can be applied anywhere. So that's why there's a assumption. The people that are new. Oh, that's all manufacturing. We don't create widgets. You know, we process patients or we're government. You know, we issue this and that. It can be applied anywhere.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have value. You're trying to provide for the world.

Right.

Everyone can really back into the value. If they have no value, then what are you doing?

Exactly.

Right. So, but assuming you have some value that you're giving to the world, how can we do that as efficiently and seamlessly as possible?

Correct. And everybody has a customer. Doesn't matter if it's internal customer or external customer. We all have customers.

Yep.

And we have to see things from a customer perspective and do what's best for the customer. And that's now respect for the customer.

Yeah. I always say that Lean knows no boundary. Humans, no boundaries. You know what I mean?

Yes.

Like, we are the problem.

Yes.

I found the problem. And he's. I'll go said, yeah, yeah. So what I mean, I know. One of the things I love about you, Alan, is that you have this gift of being able to sort of communicate really complicated things in really simple terms and just a. Just a really. An approachable manner. And I'm wondering, like, I would be curious to get, like, your perspective on that. Like, how did you learn that, like. Or has it sort of been natural for you to be able to explain maybe complicated things to people in a way that they can understand?

Because that's, like.

It really is one of your gifts that I've. I've noticed over the years. Even before you came to Gemba Academy.

Thank you. And I. Nobody ever told me that. I really appreciate that. One of the things about me, I really care about people. I always. It's just my nature. It's not something that I strive to do, but it's my nature. I love helping people, and I never liked the way of traditional management when I went to school. You know, you have to follow procedures. Procedures are written to be followed. If you get a leadership role, you follow these steps, and it's all mechanical. I never loved it. And I done it because I want to be a leader. All my life when I was a kid, I always wanted to lead, and I was always wanting to be a leader. A leader. I didn't know where, but lead something, lead people, work with people. And then when Lean got introduced to me, I really fell in love. I said, this is really about people. Somebody I was just wrote a post on LinkedIn about this gentleman, Carlos, who was the CEO of Magna International or Magna Dali back then. And he changed my view. And he's the really, the reason why I fell in lean, you know, when consultants came. Sensei is teaching me this, you know, okay, he's like a teacher. I'm just going to learn, get by, learn and move on. Right? That was my idea. I didn't think I would be doing what I was doing today. But Carlos really changed me. You know, he was older, gentleman retired from Ford, well known at Ford. He retired and came to help us out because we were struggling company. And so I, when I learned Lean and started applying and working on Lean, I found out that people, these people use these terminologies, big words and all that, you know, and people could not comprehend on the shop floor. They said, I don't know what this guy's talking about, you know, using Lean terminologies, you know, let's go to the Gamba. What is Gamba? What is he talking about? You know. And then I start translating to people because I was trained and I said, well, that's just the actual place where. That's where you work. Your press is your Gamba, you know, my Gemba is my office, you know, that person. And then, oh, that's what it is, you know, and start saying. And then I start saying that if you simplify two people, you're gonna bet you're gonna get a better buy in people gonna say, well, that's simple. That's really common sense. Thank you for simplifying this to me or explaining this in a simpler way. And that's why I try, even during the Lean partitioner program, try to simplify to our candidates that going through and not use something terminology that they might not understand right away. They might later, they will. But simply simple language that people can understand. Always set yourself to the level that people can understand you.

You coach a lot of people here at YAMB Academy, but also even before YAMB Academy, I mean, thousands of people I'm sure over the years have been coached by you. Talk a little bit about your style of coaching in particular when you're maybe you. Well, okay, let's do the tough one. You got what we call the cave person, the citizen against virtually everything. We've all interacted with cave people, right?

Yes.

What do you do when you're introduced to someone and you can tell, man, they're not interested in this and they're almost just the negativity is pouring out of Them, what do you do?

Okay, so I'm gonna use a real example for this one to answer this question. And it's about a gentleman that calls himself Caveman. I kid you not. He has a different name. He has a real name, but everybody in companies do not call him by his real name. Call him Caveman. He wants to be called Caveman, so we call him Caveman. So Caveman was a gentleman, one of the best employees at this organization. But he got stuck in his way of doing things. He would never change. And this is something that people told me, work with others. Stay away from Caveman. And this is. You know, when I heard that. I believe in people. I believe people can change. You know, people sometimes say he's stubborn. You know, we introduce other things to him. He doesn't want to listen. He stuck his own way. But we keep him because he's a good man. He's a good man, a good employee. He does job like no one else can do.

Yeah.

And what we did with this gentleman is. I tried when I got introduced to him. Of course he's gonna oppose me. Who are you? You from the office? You're the leadership management. You know, I don't need you here. You know, I know how to run this business. You know, you don't know. Have you ever welded? No, I didn't. Okay? So I don't think I can benefit from you. So what I found out in this particular case is what bugs him. So when I implemented hourly boards, okay, throughout the whole one line, not the whole facility, just one line, I wanted to introduce what our boards can do to leadership and to the. Our borrower. Yes. They never had our borrower, so. And we talked in previous recordings where I spoke about, are we winning? Losing? And you had the same experience. So I was introducing that first. That was the first thing introducing to this organization. And this gentleman just would not fill out his numbers, you know? And then he start complaining to me. You know, we start talking, him and I, and he start complaining to me how every single day, he has to wait for material to arrive for him to be able to do his job. He gets his job done every day, but he wastes three hours, two to three hours, just waiting for material, and then he rushes to get the things done. He said, I accomplish it because I'm good at it. But he said, I don't want to. I feel tired at the end of the day. I don't want to rush every single day. So that was his problem. So one of my approaches is find out what bugs? Those folks find out what bugs people. And don't give up. Don't give up on people just because somebody said, well, this guy is close to retirement. Which I had another case. Two gentlemen working for me in the warehouse. And I said, well, he's close to retirement. You know, I don't think you're going to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. You know, don't give up on people. Number two, be real when you talk to people. Show them really that you are there to help them, that they can see that this is not just for the organization, for the company. I really want to help you. So I build it relationship over time with this gentleman. I said, listen, I want to help you, but you got to help me too, you know. You know, I'm no new at this organization, you know, and I am trying to introduce something to you. I really need a champion for this hour board. Nobody wants to do it. Everybody says, well, we're busy building things. We don't have time for this to grab a, you know, marker and every hour go out there and we forget, you know, we're busy. I understand that. They didn't have those habits, right? And I said, I need your help. He said, well, if you help me, I'll help you. I said, what's your problem? He said, ellen, come in tomorrow morning at 6 o'. Clock. Stand here with me and don't say a word to anyone. Wait and watch with me how long it takes till they prepare all the kits and parts for me and then come back at the end of the day and see if I got it done or not. And I did. So I listened to him. I said, I'll take your advice. I will not say anything to anyone. So I came, guess what? Two and plus hours. He didn't have all the components so he can build what he needed to build. And then he rushed. And then at the end of the day, I came to see him. I said, caveman, how you doing, man? Did you get all done? You know, we talked about it. He said, yep, all done, man. Go and check. And he showed me the board. He said, look at your board. And I looked at my board and he filled out. You know, and then I said. Then he starts saying, okay, that was the first initial one. Then he started saying, I still have issues. He still kept complaining about leadership. You know, people always blame someone. And I said, hey, Caveman, you know, it's not, you know, this lean thing. It's not about blaming people. You know, we all people, we all have Jobs, you know, let's see really what's wrong with the process, you know. And then I said what I need you to do. Can you start writing with this? I'm going to give you this red dry erase marker. Every time you stop production for whatever reason, I need you to write down how long you were down in minutes and what was the reason. Sometimes he said, I'm waiting for work orders, for supervisors to bring me work orders. 20 minutes. Okay. Next hour I would come around. He said, I'm waiting for such and such part, particular part. And that's how I start getting information. And I started relating this to leadership. I said, leadership, I need your help. We had these, like, production meetings in the morning, and I brought it up and I said, hey, this gentleman is struggling, and here's the issue. So that's kind of my approach when it comes engaging people, especially those that are really opposed to change.

Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, in most cases, I mean, you have some exceptions, but in most cases, it's been my experience that. That people just aren't heard, you know, now they also have to speak. But sometimes they try and they get sort of brushed off. That's it.

Mm.

They'll never try again, you know, because they were hurt them, you know, and they're. They're upset them and all the rest of it. They don't like that feeling.

Right.

As a human being, you don't like that feeling. So you want to do that again. You don't want to be exposed to that pain again. Right. So, yeah, we think about lean and continuous improvement and just human behavior. I mean, it's a very sensitive process, you know, because it is human beings interacting with one another.

Right.

And you've. There's so much division already in our world.

Yes.

Right. Left, you know, all the rest of it, you know, and now we're trying to be. Be lean, you know.

Yeah.

It's like, it's tricky.

And we got you. You want me to work with that person?

Yeah.

When I work as a team.

Yeah. You know, who they voted for or whatever, you know, and it's like, yeah, golly, you know, so, yeah, it's tough, man. It can be tough. I'm wondering then not to be negative, but, you know, unfortunately there are some organizations that. That lose their way with. With lean or continuous improvement, Six Sigma, whatever it might be. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on what we can do to bring them back and if it. If they do come back, like, why do you think that is?

That's a Great question. We can write a book about that. But I'm going to give you some quick points on that. Why people lose taste for Lean because it was introduced to them incorrectly. It was introduced to them as a project. It was introduced maybe to them to make him look good for a little bit, to elevate a leader. Hey, I'm going to bring this, you know, I'm going to bring some consultants, going to make some beautiful things.

Went to a conference.

Yes, I went to a conference. And this is great, you know, hey, can you this in six months? You know, I'll pay you X amount of money. Get it done. Six months, make it, put nice posters and all that. So that's one of the reasons why many companies here, United States and all over the world are losing because they are faking it. They are surreal Lean and fake Lean. And most people unfortunately fake it. What I mean by that, they don't really develop people. They don't really go and take the lean approach. You know, we have great consultants. When I was a consultant, this is one of the hardest jobs I think ever had in my life. You know, I'd rather work in backyard and dig holes and stuff like that. It's very difficult. You have to be political, you have to be knowledgeable. You know, you have to know how to build teams and all that. And they'll sometimes pressure these folks to do something very short period of time. Like this is a magic. It's not a magic. It's a culture. It's a way of changing culture. You have to start seeing through different lens, right? And you can't do things that you have been doing and then people treat it as a project. Hey, I only have this, hey, can we do this? They see improvements. You improve something, you work with a team. You do a Kaizen event online and let's say a cycle time and on time. Delivery was a problem and you fix that and they celebrate, which is great. They celebrate, acknowledge people. But then they said, we're making good money now. We don't need this lean anymore. You know, let's just keep doing. You know, the other thing that I've noticed over the years, people think the lean is to eliminate people, to eliminate positions. I need Lean, you know, because I want to cut a headcount. People would say I need to cut my headcount about 25%. So I need you here. So that's. As we know all in the lean community, Lean is not about eliminating people. It is about.

That's when Gemba Academy gives that customer their money back and says thank you.

Exactly. So that's another problem. It's not about eliminating people, it's eliminating waste of in the process. And we have processes. The other thing is also it's not only for manufacturing. It's not micromanagement system. Lean is a system of a team work, respect for people. Managers respect employees, employees respect managers in return. Right. Building that kind of a culture where employee can feel comfortable telling their manager, I disagree with this idea. I think I have a better idea than you. For example, Ron suggests, you suggested my boss something said hey Ron, this is great, but I think I would take maybe a different approach. I feel comfortable, comfortable coming to you and said, you're right, this is better. You know, let's go with Alan's idea or vice versa. And I used to have elite teams and like that. And you, I said if you want to know if you're a good leader or not a lean leader, have a meeting and have somebody from outside to define who the leader is in the room. You have to be on the same level. Take those titles off when you work on a problem solutions and all that. And that's what some people make mistakes. You know, they think it's a tool. They think Lean is a tool. They think lean is 5s. Kaizen. All these buzzwords you see mapping a 3, that's what lean is. You know, they think they learned a few things and said we are a lean organization but the culture hasn't changed. And if a culture does not change, you will not sustain. And then you're going to start believing, well, this thing really doesn't work.

Last question I have for you, Alan. I know in your role here at Gemba Academy you're coaching a lot of people and you've mentioned a few times already, but I don't know what percentage, but a decent percentage of the candidates that come through Gamba Academy aren't in manufacturing.

Correct.

They work in a. More of a service organization. Maybe a hospital, something office, something like this. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you're seeing Lean Six Sigma, just continuous improvement in general being applied in these, these, these non manufacturing gimbas.

Yeah. So more probably around 50% if not more. Is it? Yeah, it is.

Okay.

And then on manufacturing they are in office environment, corporate offices. They're in healthcare. We have so many from healthcare. I know John is coaching somebody in government here locally, someone. So we have people that are probably 50% they're not in manufacturing anymore. Why? Because people see that Lean really works. They can. They go to sites and do these Gamba walks and these tours, and they. How they're benefiting from it. The reason why it's picking off now, outside of manufacturing. Manufacturing, of course, you can always use. And it's been used for many years. That's where it started. But what people seeing, for example, in healthcare. And I was so impressed about some of my candidates. I hope they listen to this podcast today about the improvement they made. So their leadership last year went to the Lean Practitioner program. Two leaders from this organization. It's a healthcare environment. They have many offices, many, many offices. And they were leading these two leaders were leading all these offices, overseeing them. And they went through Lean Practitioner, and they fell in love with Lean. Okay. And they fell in love with Lean because they benefited so much from learning lean. Practicing lean. You know, our Lean Practitioner is not just learn Lean and then take a quiz. You have to demonstrate. Yeah. You got to do the job. Doesn't matter what position you are. Yeah. You're the highest person at the company. You still have to do the job to learn and to feel it. And they done that. Done a great job. Okay. And I was so proud of these two individuals. So they sent us eight additional people from the organization, said, we really love it. We want to pass this Lean virus throughout the entire organization. So they keep sending us more now, people. So these ladies, yesterday, when they presented to me, they said, ellen, remember, do you remember when you worked with this individual, you know, during this course, you know, seeing waste? I said, I coach hundreds of people, you know, every year. It's hard to remember, but can you show me? And I said, oh, yeah, I do remember when they showed me the area, they said, we improved our boss's idea. We followed this for about almost a year now, since he graduated from Gamba Academy. And we now made it even better. Oh, wait.

So the boss went through the program, and part of their certification was to make this area better.

Yes.

And now their colleagues came through and made Mary.

Oh, wow. Yeah. So they were laughing, and they presented this to this gentleman. And then they presented to me, and they took a video. They said, boss, this is what you had, and you improved. This gentleman improved big time. He was standing in silhouette. So we were teaching, teaching and going over, staying in a circle. Staying in a circle. And he was improving something about supply area and all that. And now his team going through this made it even better. And they took a video. So I said, well, I don't remember anyone taking videos before and after. Here's the before, after, you know, they kind of simulated and how long it took. And then they said, after, we made improvement and eliminated waste of waiting and transportation. Here's the new process. And I said, wow, what improvement, you know, so that was a cool story.

So, wow, that's awesome, man. Well, it's. I appreciate all you do here, Alan. I mean, you're so passionate and so good at what you do. So very thankful to have you on our team. Maybe to wrap things up. I don't know if you have any sort of final words of wisdom or some parting thoughts that you want to leave with everyone.

Yes. If you're new to Lean or you're just starting with Lean, what I would highly recommend to you, what I recommend to my candidates going through Lean Practitioner program is think lean about people, try to solve problems for people. And along the way, as you're trying to solve problems for people, learn these tools. Lean has some great tools. Lean is a big toolbox with many tools. Like a plumber has a toolbox with tools that plumbers use. Just buying that toolbox will not make you a good plumber. Okay. Just because you have that toolbox, like, I'm not a plumber. But if you learn how to solve problems and you learn how to utilize those tools, you can become a good plumber as well. And same in Lean, you know, first, start from what you're trying to solve. Don't just try something to improve just to impress someone. Try really to improve something to help an individual. And along the way, as you try to help this individual, reach out to people of knowledge. If you don't have enough knowledge and lean, what could I do? And then start learning, reading, attending some courses and stuff like that. And then start applying that. You will find a joy in that the person that you helped is going to appreciate you and you're going to start this Lean culture. That's how Lean culture starts, usually when you help people and remove roadblocks for people. That's my final thought.

Awesome. Thank you. Hey, if people want to connect with you, what's the best way?

Alan? I love LinkedIn. Every day I check LinkedIn. So that's the best way.

Okay, we'll get everything linked up on the show notes here. So everybody to scroll down. And if you're not already connected with Alan, please go and do that.

So.

All right. Well, hey, man, I know you got some coaching Cat, and it's probably to go jump on the phone.

Yes, I do.

I'll let you go and appreciate you coming on again.

Thank you Ryan. Thank you very much.

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