GA 588 | When Lean Doesn’t Stick with Holly Plaga

It was all on my shoulders. I have got to implement this. I got to do this all by myself. And that is not true. It's like building a safety culture. It's not just one person. There's somebody leading it, but it's on everyone's responsibility to build the safety culture. And it's the same thing with Lean.

Today, I am excited to welcome Holly Plaga to the show. Now, as you'll hear, Holly has a really deep background in lean and continuous improvement. And today we sort of dive into some really interesting topics. In particular, we get into just that whole idea of why is it that sometimes lean or continuous improvement in general just doesn't take. Doesn't take root? Maybe it gets started a little bit, but just for whatever reason, it fizzles out and doesn't work. Like, what are some of the reasons for that? And so we really sort of explore that quite a bit. And then so on the flip side, then it kind of talking about, like, what can we do then to build and sustain that culture? Like, what are some things that we should be actively trying to accomplish as an organization? And then we started to zig and zag just through natural conversation, and had a lot of fun just talking about again. She's just got so much experience, and I just. Questions kind of just kept popping into my mind, so I just started firing him at her. And she did a great job responding. So show notes can be found over@gemba podcast.com. this is episode 588 again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 588. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Polly, welcome to the show. How are you?

Oh, thank you. Great. Happy Friday, Ron.

Yeah, Happy Friday. Although people are listening to us. Not on a Friday, but we're recording it on a Friday, so that's all that matters.

That's great.

Fantastic. All right, well, where are you calling in from?

Well, we live in Hazlett, Michigan, so northeast of East Lansing.

Okay. All right. So Spartan Wolverine.

Absolutely. Go green.

Okay. Okay. Well, you don't hate me as much probably as your. Your. Your Wolverine fans about. I'm from Ohio, so I, you know, I live in Texas now, but by. But I grew up in Ohio, so for good or bad, I'm a Buckeye, so, you know.

Yeah, Well, I would like to make clear I do not hate the Wolverines. I have a lot of affiliation with them as well.

Okay.

And work in their CeeLo project with Deborah Leventrosser, so.

Well, in fact, I. I actually have A lot of friends at Michigan as well, like. Well, like Rich Sheridan. You know, Menlo Innovations guys are all in Ann Arbor there. So. Yeah, a lot of great people there. We just don't agree, you know, on a particular Saturday in November, you know.

Fair enough. Fair enough.

Yeah. No, it's all good. All right, well, hey, Holly, we like to get all of our shows started with our guests sharing a quote. So do you have one?

Oh, absolutely. So this quote comes from Lean Production, simplified by Pascal Dennis. And it is. Intensity is the soul of Lean Production and team members, Art's heart. And that has always resonated with me because I think of team members as every single person in the organization. I think a lot of people think it's the line side, folks, and it's really not, because you've got to have that support throughout.

Right, right. Got it. Good stuff. All right, well, hey, holla. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and maybe how you got involved in this continuous improvement stuff and then what you're up to. These.

Yeah. So I, right now, for the last three and a half years, have overseen operational excellence at Orchid Orthopedic Solutions, which is a med device company headquartered right here in the Lansing area. And before that, gosh, you know, I went to Michigan State. I have my bachelor's in interior design at Michigan State, as well as a master's in management strategy and leadership. And when I was in design, frankly, it was always fit form and function and helping people how they use space. Right. So really love the autocad, Love the layout, the design, doing time studies, literally in interior design, really, in programming, so program documents, project management. So, yeah, I found myself an older student, a more seasoned student when I graduated from msu. And I just recognized that I wanted something more. And so I did have these mad skills back then in AutoCAD, which now it's, you know, everyone takes it. But back then, and I won't give you exactly that date, but I perhaps was pretty good at it. And someone mentioned, why don't you throw your name in a hat for a contracting company and see if you can get picked up by an automotive company? And I was like, okay, I'll try it. And ended up getting picked up by General Motors in their industrial engineering department. And I taught the folks in the industrial engineering department, AutoCAD and layout, and they basically taught me industrial engineering. And that's where I first got my real dose of what Lean is. But I'm like, oh, this makes completely complete sense, because I was Already doing a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it interesting?

Yeah, it was very strange transition and. And I've just, I've never really been able to break away from it. I absolutely love it and live it and breathe it.

It's so cool hearing that. A tie in between Interior Design and Lean. I mean, we're 588 episodes of this podcast and I'm pretty sure we've never had anybody tie those two things together. But it makes perfect sense if you think about it. Right? Like, just like. Because if you think about like a well designed place, like, forget it just. It's sort of like clutter free, there's space to breathe. Right. And things are like in a place for a reason. Right. And yeah, that's so interesting. I've never, I've never tied those things together, but that's so cool.

Yeah. So after General Motors, I just, what I did was I met a lot of awesome people. Right. And just had some fantastic opportunities to work all over the country. In my gosh. I've worked for consulting firms doing training. I've worked in ethereal constraint firms doing obviously toc, Lean, and I've worked in oil and gas. I've worked at the federal government. I've. Oh my gosh, I've just had so many opportunities and I feel very fortunate. And it's all been through my network and being able to learn and grow every time I'm at a site working with people. And so I'm. This is my first medical device company and I'm just having so much fun learning about what, what med device manufacturing looks like.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's so cool. So. Well, obviously you've got a lot of experience, Holly, and I know that you've been involved in a lot of different transformations and, and I'm sure you've seen, you know, like. I have. Unfortunately, there are some times to where for whatever reason, Lean doesn't quite take root. You know, maybe they get a start and maybe they have some quick wins or whatever, but then you come back six months later and it's like, what happened? You know, it's gone. Like, why do you think that happens from time to time?

Well, you know, it's funny you asked that question because I've looked at it. I just got back from visiting my old manufacturing manager who now is like one of my best friends, and he's, he's retired and we've talked about it as well. And my comment is, okay, if Lean Systems, you know, supposedly came into effect, came into the Western World in the night in the 90s. Why haven't we been able to take those learnings? And as people are moving up the, the ladder, corporate ladder, why are they not, why are we not getting more and more momentum? And so, you know, talk about why it doesn't take root. And frankly, a lot of the times I think it's time still, believe it or not, the thought that we can copy paste a Toyota production system into our, our mindset here in the United States and it doesn't work. It really doesn't work. And we just talked, I just mentioned mindset. We talk about culture. You've got to build the mindset first. And we have a different culture here.

So. Okay, talk, let's talk about that a little bit. What in your opinion is the mindset needed for lean or continuous improvement to be successful?

Well, you have to be able to make mistakes without fearing punitive repercussions. Right. And so what I found is that a lot of times we'll have senior executives in the role, you'll have a lean program, but they're not quite sure how to coach. They haven't really haven't been educated on how to coach and really don't know what good looks like. So, you know, one of the things that I've really tried to work on is giving those examples. This is what we should, these are what we expect. This is how you should behave. These are the questions you need to ask and encourage people or empower people to, to try something and gain that momentum.

Got it, Got it. I'm wondering if you could think back to maybe some of your, I don't know, some of your, your wins and has there been any that have really stood out to you as far as, like, maybe when you went into it, you're like, oh boy, this is going to be a tough one, you know, for whatever reason, and, but with hard work and determination and I'm sure a lot of, of help from others and teamwork and all that good stuff, like, you were, you were successful. Like, can you think of any that, like that maybe that you're particularly proud of or, or just just really, really happy that it, that it worked out the way that it did?

Yeah, you know, I, I can give you an example. Most recently, I was working with a site and they were really uneasy, uneasy about change, uneasy about being supported. And for my role, I do a lot of the blocking and tackling and working at the senior level. And I am, you know, I set the roadmap in place with, with the, the, the Sponsor, if you will. This is what you should be able to see. These are objectives, these are deliverables, but this is what you should be able to see. And this is what I need from you. I think a lot of times what happens is that when you're the sponsor of a project, you really don't know what you're, you know, what you're sponsoring, but you don't know how to sponsor. So giving that the, the, the roadmap on how to do it was really encouraging to the team members to excel in their brainstorming, in their tri storming, and really becoming very successful. And then what was really the best indicator for me that we were successful wasn't that we hit the KPIs. It wasn't we hit the objectives, is that when I left, they took those, those learnings, that empowerment and kept going.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I find out months later, oh, yeah, yeah, we did this. We did this A3. We improved here, here, and here. And we're even better than when you left. And that, to me, is what really, you know, hits your heart.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can literally change the way people think and behave about their work, you know, in a positive way. That's a, well, it' huge responsibility too. I feel like, you know, so everybody listening, like, we, there's a, you know, there's a lot of weight sometimes on our shoulders because there's a big job, but, man, when you're successful, you can change people's lives.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I'm wondering then if we could maybe kind of talk a little bit. What we talked about some of the reasons that, that, you know, lean might not take root, but what about, like, kind of spinning it more on a positive side? What can we be doing as business leaders and professionals to, to build up that lean culture and make sure that it's a sustainable culture. Are there some practical tips that you can offer?

Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that I hear, and I actually felt this too, was that it was all on my shoulders. You just mentioned that, like, I have got to implement this. I got to do this all by myself.

Yeah.

And that is not true. Don't you. It's like building a safety culture. It's not just one person, there's somebody leading it.

Yeah.

But it's on everyone's in responsibility to build the safety culture. And it's the same thing with lean. So my, my how I coach it is that we need to partner with various areas. And, you know, I used to always try to find the One that needed the most help. And I will say, lesson learned. Don't try to do that. Find the people that want to join you that are curious and want to try it. So, yeah, partnering with the safety team to roll out 5S projects, partnering with HR to set up leadership behaviors and to coach behaviors and mindset. Partner with quality. Partner with anybody who wants to partner with you to grow the mindset, to grow the tool set. That would be my number one for short run.

Yeah. Can you think back to maybe even like in your earlier days when you were first getting started with all this lean and continuous improvement stuff, and think about, I don't know, sometimes you might talk about people call it your favorite mistake. Right. Like something that you did that didn't work out. But, boy, when you look back on it, maybe there was tremendous learning or something that came with it.

Well, I just mentioned one. I always want to help the underdog. I always want to help the person who's running behind, you know, is behind the pack. And what I found is that that can be overwhelming and time consuming when you've got other people that are willing to join. And that would be, you know, one of my number one mistakes that I coach people on is, you know, what, they're going to come along or they're not going to come along. But spend your time where you're wanted, where people are eager to learn. And if they're not, that's okay. You know, going back to Kotter's eight steps, start building that coalition. Bring in some examples. You just can't expect people to turn it on overnight. So that's one of the things that I coach and try to share that, you know, don't get frustrated, put a plan together, and then really just bring folks into your. Into your circle that are willing to learn.

I think a previous episode was talking with a individual, and we were brought up the whole acronym CAVE People, Citizens against, virtually everything. I don't. So if you've ever interacted with someone, you're trying to make things better and just maybe an individual, for whatever reason, you're just not on board, and they're borderline negative and almost kind of blocking you in a way. Like, have you ever experienced that? And if so, like, what is your strategy to try to overcome that? Assuming that you can't literally just move that person out of that role, you know, like, they're there, you know, like, have you ever experienced that?

Oh, I. Yeah, a lot. My gosh. Yes. And so what do you do? Well, one. You. You listen. Why There is always a reason why they're against it. We talked about, you know, ghosts of Lean Past. You know, it's. Although it's, you know, it started in 93, there's still a lot of, you know, became Systems thinking in 93 or the 90s. Still, people either have never heard of it or they've heard of it, they've dealt with it and it didn't work. So they've got these ghosts of Lean Past. So what I like to do is literally just, you know, use my two years and close my one mouth and listen and try to understand and it's not. Well, you could, you know, trying to convince them otherwise, but now I know where they're coming from. And then as we go through the event, as we go through maybe trying to optimize something, I can relate to them better. And, and I'm not expecting a grand slam. And that's what I have to explain. You're not going to have a cheerleader all of a sudden is going to be baby steps. But, you know, helping them move the needle just a wee bit is better than where they were, you know, a day ago. So, you know, that's where I'm at with it. I, again, not everybody thinks and feels the same way you and I do. So what is it and how can we help them?

Yeah, yeah. My style has always been in a very similar way, like just, just, I don't ignore them, but, you know, I don't, don't poke at them and try to try, but just bring them naturally along. And I, and I've shared this before on the podcast, but I remember a specific event where the individual came up to me at the end of the, the event and they were, they literally had tears in their eyes and, and said that, you know, hey, no one has ever listened to me the way that, you know, this team and it was like a Kaizen event or something, you know, the way that this team listened to me and it's like deeply moved that person, you know, and, and, but they were super negative, I remember, you know, early on and, and it was kind of like, well, yeah, no, people don't want to listen to you because you're negative, you know, but, but you know, just sort of cooperated with it and, and boy, it turned out in a really lovely result at the end, you know.

And yeah, well, you know, it's funny and I think I keep the best relationships with those who were able to move and understand and move towards using the tools and being heard and, you know, during Presentations also, you know, I asked them, hey, you seem to have really bought in. Would you mind saying a couple of things? Or can I quote you on a couple of things? And then also, you know, and it's sincere, but I want them to feel special because they are special and they felt comfortable enough sharing with me why they don't believe in it or why they're struggling. And that's, that's really important.

Well, I feel like there's actually a sense of authenticity there versus someone who doesn't really buy in, but they're just kind of playing along. You know, I just get, let's just get through this, you know, like, that's worse to me than someone who's actively sort of like, I'm not bought in and I don't pretend to be. Right. And so.

Absolutely, absolutely. One of my former companies, we use stakeholder analysis. And you know, at first I think, oh, this is just a, you know, an exercise and administrative workout. And what I found was that I love using that tool now because you do get a cast of characters, if you will, and you've got to understand where everybody's coming from. And through the stakeholder analysis, you can you watch yourself and check, do the plan, do check act methodology and you know, try to move everybody into the better each day, incrementally better.

Yeah. Fantastic. Well, this has been a lot of fun, Holly. I appreciate you coming on maybe to wrap things up. I don't know if you have any sort of like final words of wisdom or final thoughts that you want to share with folks and then tell us how people can connect with you.

Okay. Well, of course I'm on LinkedIn at Holly Plaga and spell Plaga, just. Yeah, P, L, A, G, A. And that's the best way to contact me.

Okay.

But, you know, I guess the one thing that I. It's another quote that I, I don't, I don't know who said it, but it's something that I have experienced. And what I keep thinking about is how do we move the needle? How do we get lean more embedded in companies in that mindset? And it's employees take the. On the behaviors of their leadership. So if you have a leader who is, you know, gung ho and really wants to try things and is empowering their team, is showing resiliency and curiosity and really encouraging team members to try new things, that the team members will see that. Right. The employees will see that and say, well, wow, I might be a cave person. Maybe I need to try this. And it'll be okay if I don't. If I'm not perfect. I will be okay if I only succeed 20%. But I can see it. I can see this leader is definitely walking the talk.

Yeah. Good stuff. Love it.

Absolutely.

All right, well, thanks again for coming on. This was a lot of fun. Holly.

Thanks Ron. I greatly appreciate it.

All right, take care.

Bye now.

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