GA 596 | Taking Stock of Your Leadership with Grace Gavin

That's the big leadership gap going on right now is people walk into a room, people walk into a company, a team, and they don't know. I mean, how open are these people going to be? And so we end up playing it safe and we get these reduced versions of people, or even worse, we get fake versions of them. And we can't. We can't actually work with that. We can't do anything there.

Today I am excited to welcome Grace Gavin back to the show. Now, I've known Grace for a while, and it's always awesome to chat with her. And today was really fun episode. We, I guess the topic or theme really of today is just open and honest communication. And so we really just kind of get into just that relationship that we have at work and why it can be hard for folks to just. I don't know how else to say it, to be honest and to be open with one another. And so we just really kind of dig into that. We talk about what can. What does it take to develop a culture of real, authentic communication? And then, then I was. We always have a few ideas of what we're going to talk about. But then as we were talking, things were just popping into my mind. So it was just. I was just randomly asking questions. And one of the things that came to my mind is, you know, when the different perspectives that you can have based on the hierarchy you are in a company. So if you're, you know, brand new to a company and you see the big CEO or whatever coming down the hallway, you know, how are you going to be open and honest in that environment? Like, what does it take to be able to do that? So we get into that and lots of other stuff. Stuff. So, again, really fun conversation. I think you're going to enjoy this. I know I did. Show notes can be found over@gebapodcast.com this is episode 596. Again, GembaPodcast.com look for episode 596. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Grace, welcome back to the show. How's it going, Ron?

Thanks for having me. I am excited to be back. See where we take this conversation because last time we took all kinds of turns and curves. So let's see where this one goes.

Exactly. All right. Where are you calling in from?

Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Okay. And we're. We're actually recording this at the end of July. It won't be released for a little while, but we've got a blast furnace down here in Texas. I don't Know how it is right now for you right now.

But we're just getting over it. There's a little bit of rain coming down actually, outside.

Oh, that would be lovely, actually. So, so awesome. All. Well, Grace, you know the drill. We like to begin all of our episodes with our guest sharing a quote. So what do you got?

Yeah, this one that has been one that I'm carrying close to me is from Maya Angelou. So classic right there already. And it's the one where she says, do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better. And I have been doing my best to live into that, to not only be better every time, but then let go of the if I had only known this six months ago or four months ago, what could it have been? And letting go of all of those what ifs to live more in the moment and do my best right now.

Yeah, yeah. That's so important. And it's so hard, isn't it?

That's a trap I fall into.

Yeah. Yeah, I think we all do. All right, well, hey, I'm excited for today's episode, so let's just jump right in. And I guess really the can talk a lot about people and to open things up, just want to get your thoughts on the whole idea of honesty at work and why that can be a struggle for. For some. For many, perhaps even. So what do you think about all that?

Yeah, I think about. I think it's not a surface level problem, Ron, because I do think it's a big issue, but I think it's what gets talked about a lot more than the actual problem. So what I mean by that at no honesty. We define honesty as being truly and freely yourself, speaking into what you want and how you feel. And people struggle to do that at times. Like, I think about the conversation around being your authentic self is something that I hear a lot in the spaces that I have. But. And when it comes to that, people talk about we need to have courage or it takes bravery to be who we are. But I always thought to myself, well, why? Why does it take courage and bravery to. To just be who you are? That should be just how you walk into the room, right? But that's not what typically happens in a team or in a business, especially if you're just joining them for the first time. And the reason I think that is, and what's kind of the hidden part underneath that is because we don't know, or maybe we don't fully trust or it hasn't been explicitly stated what the level of openness on the other side is to our honesty. If I'm going to tell you, hey Ron, this is what I think, this is how I feel, here's my opinion on this project. I'm less likely to be a hundred percent honest with you if I don't know or trust that you on the other side are going to be open to it. Said another way that you're going to actually listen to it, that for just a moment you're going to pause your wants, your needs for whatever it is around this project to just hear what it is that I have to say and then we find our way through that. I think that's kind of the, what I've been talking with clients about is that's the big leadership gap going on right now as people walk into a room, people walk into a company, a team and they don't know, I mean, how open are these people going to be? And so we end up playing it safe and we get these reduced versions of people or even worse, we get fake versions of them and we can't, we can't actually work with that. We can't do anything there.

So what role do you think? Like I think of, you know, even here at Gamba Academy, we've got a team. We've all worked together for many. Most people are like 10 plus years or whatever. So we know each other really well. But let's say we have someone that's new, comes on onto the, into the room, into the company and you know, I'm sort of, you know, managing director so I guess I'm towards the top here and if I walk in and they don't know me, you know, they're gonna be scared to talk until they get to find out that, you know, I'm not, you know, the big bad wolf or anything. At least I hope not. I'm not seen as that. But like what role does that play? Like sort of like where you are in the company on the, let's just call it the, the you know, job titles or whatever. Like if you're with a bunch of your peers, right, like you're all in the same role and of thing is it easier in those environments versus, you know, the boss walks in and you know, you're new and you're going to be really scared for whatever reason, you know what I'm saying? Like how does that work?

Yeah, I, unfortunately I see it all the time and you know Ron, I, I hope that people aren't afraid of you by any means. I don't think they would be. You'd have to take a survey. Right. To really know that. And I think what happens there and when we kind of think about the hierarchy of a company is every single time I work with a leadership team first to help them build these skills of communication and being honest and being open, because then I go work with their management team or the next level down, whatever that looks like for them. And invariably, every single time I get that question that you're asking, how honest can I really be with leadership? Do they really want to hear what I have to say? Right. And they're working with me as a client. So the answer is yes, but that's not always the case. But I think the other thing, too, that as we're higher up in leadership, higher up in a company, what we have to consider is the environment that we're in. And so what that means is that think about kind of the imagery that gets put out about a boss in. In the media, in our culture. Right? It's the. The command and control type of leader still. The. The business owner that's slamming his fist on the table, or the leader who thinks it's my way or the highway. Those are your headlines. Those are the things that get put into movies. And so that is the assumption that people walk into a business with, and we have to overcome that barrier and be aware of it. And so that is where it comes in when I'm talking with clients about, we gotta vocalize this and say, look, this is the kind of communication that we want to have. This is the culture that we're having. Because otherwise you kind of just default to what the culture has out there, our society at large. And it's not. It's not a fair representation of leadership by any means. Very rarely do I meet an actual egotistical leader who doesn't want to hear from their people that just wants it their way or the highway, because they don't end up being a leader for very long. We got to recognize that that's. That's people's kind of assumed expectation.

Yeah. Okay, so. All right, well, then let's kind of take it further then. So what do you think it takes to develop a culture of just real, authentic, open communication?

I think it starts with defining what that means. And so when I work with clients, we say very clearly, look, here's the distinction between honesty and openness. We get really clear on that, the two differing skills, because we got to have that exchange of communication. So you got to have it clearly stated. And then we got to look at how do we live in to that. So, yeah, let's say we say we're open and honest, but what does that really look like? Like, I was talking with a client a couple weeks ago and they had kind of a big, I'll say misstep when it comes to open and honest. They had somebody who had to get some tough feedback on their position and how they were performing. And what ended up happening is they had a room full of six people in that conversation. That conversation really should have been a one to one. And so the person who's getting this feedback doesn't really get an opportunity to be honest because now you got six other people around the table who aren't really open to it. And so we gotta live out those values as well. Really pausing for just 30 seconds a minute, maybe a five minute conversation with your people and actually hear what they have to say. Which doesn't mean we have to agree with them, but we gotta at least hear them. And so making it wildly clear in the definitions on what we're looking for, the actions that we're taking and how we're behaving in that way, and then we're rewarding people around that, or we're having disciplinary conversations when they're not performing in that way. So it becomes an expected part of the culture and not just words that we say. One of the things I ask prospective clients is, you know, what is it like in your company culture? And I don't want to know what your core values are on the wall. I'm not quizzing you on that. But what is it actually like to work here at this company? How do people think and feel when they walk in that door? Are they on edge? Do they hold back what they have to say because they don't think they're going to be heard or they know they're not going to be heard. And so how are we living it out, how are we verbalizing it and how are the actions coming out of it?

Often wonder, like, why is it like, what is it about fear in the workplace? You know what I mean? Like, or maybe that's the wrong way of saying it. Like, what's causing potential anxiety? Is it, is it the, I guess ultimately, like, are people scared they're going to get fired? So they think about, I got to provide for my family or something like that, you know what I mean? Like, what are sort of like the primal reasons you think for fear, for anxiety, for any of these bad things? Assume the boss is not a complete you know, bad person or something like that. Right. But still there's going to be people who are just nervous or whatever. Like what? Where do you think that comes from? Yeah, like I'm asking as a leader of my own company, like, not that I see that, but you never know, right? Like what's inside of people's minds in their hearts.

I think that's a really great question. I want to just sit with it for a second. Maybe we explore this together because I don't know if I have the right answer either. But yeah, it is the fear. And I think also recognizing the carryover that people have from other companies. I had a leader that I was talking to one time that she left, a really toxic leader, like talking. Everybody turned over. It was not this leader's fault for some reason. And she got to the point where she said, I became toxic. It leached into me and how I felt that I had to lead. And then she goes and joins a whole different culture and it's different. Right. But now she's got that hang up where she's not able to let that go and she's constantly looking around corners and she has that fear. So I think part of that comes into it recognizing, you know, what's the history there? This is a new company. How do we let go of that? And then to me, it really. This is still fear, Ron. But I think there's some scarcity mindset. Like you said, I gotta have this job to provide for my family and I. And right or wrong, I get where people come from on that. And so they don't imagine. They don't imagine a workplace where they can make the money they need to provide for their family and hopefully have a little bit of fun on top of that and enjoy their work. Like we've gotten. I think maybe it goes back to a cultural thing too, is just that trope of we can't enjoy our work or you can only enjoy it to a certain extent and we can't have fun and. And it's got to be a trudge and just terrible. So I wonder about that too. I don't know. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, it's such a wide ranging range of possibilities. Like, I mean, you don't know what someone's going through. Maybe they have got a sick child at home or trouble in their relationship, personal relationships or whatever. It might be like you never know what's going on in a person's life. But you say, well, they're so negative sitting over there or whatever. You Know, but yeah, you know, like, maybe they're going through some really tough times. So I don't know, maybe a good thing for leaders to do is just say like, hey, Grace, how's it going? And then just shut up, you know, and just see, like, how's it going? And just open up a conversation or something like that. I don't know. But I mean, human beings are tricky.

You know, I think on the leader side too, the, the fear comes into that too. Because my immediate thought that I've heard from people is, well, if I do that and I can't fix it, what happens? And to the leader out there, you don't have to fix it. Like, I think about the conversation my business partner and I had five years ago now when my dad passed away and we were going to have a meeting and he paused before we started and he said, hey, I'm just sensing you're not like fully here. What, what's going on? Like, we need you here, but what's happening? And just that question alone unlocked something in me where I came back and I was kind of angry, but I said, look, my dad just died and I, I feel a bit unmoored and I don't know where I'm at. And to his credit, he sat there and he just listened. Then we had a conversation about, okay, what do you need then, Grace, to, to walk through this time of unknown, in this grief, where we're still, you know, we're still accountable to things that need to happen, but we give you some more space around that and we got to have a much deeper conversation. And sometimes as a leader, you don't have to have the answer. And sometimes you just gotta be a listening ear. But there are probably ways that you can help support them or the business can help support them if you've got bereavement policies or things like that, or if it's just being a listening ear. Because what that did, Ron, that one conversation, I mean, Ken and I have been working together for eight years. I was 3ish years into our relationship. We are so much stronger for all the conversations that we have, but because I knew he supported me in that really tough time.

Yeah, that's beautiful. So maybe keep going on a little bit more about. I'm curious to get your thoughts on. On barriers that I know from even maybe from some of your clients when it comes to just communication overall, like, what's getting in the way.

Yeah, I think we talked about one, which is fear. When I think about it with clients, though, I try to make everything I do tangible and not so up in the clouds. Theory based, because I love that stuff, but I know it's not nearly as applicable all the time to every leader. And so I think about the two practices that we teach, which are fake you and the wall, and fake you is the facade we project rather than being 100% honest. So if we go back and we think about that new person joining the team, they feel like they got to put on a face to fit in. Well, that's. That's going to be a huge barrier to them actually getting what they need out of the company, and the company really understanding who that person is and how they can best utilize their skills and talents. And then on the other side is the wall, which is the divide we put between ourselves and others. Rather than being one open said another way, it's just what we do and we're not listening to somebody anymore. And the problem with both of these, Ron, is that they get to be so subconscious for people that we don't even sometimes recognize that they're happening. And so when I'm taking clients through a discovery of where these two barriers are getting in the way for them, it's oftentimes just an immediate response that they don't even realize is happening. A lot of the times, like, I had a team member who was a part of the security team, and he talked about how, yeah, when somebody comes to me and says there has a question about security, I just stop listening. And then they come to me again and I'm not listening because it's the same complaint as last time. And then a couple of weeks later, they come to me again and I looked at him, I said, well, why do you think they keep coming to you? Probably because they didn't feel heard the first time. Right. And so now he's frustrated. They're frustrated. We have a broken relationship in the organization and we're losing time because of that. Because now you've had that conversation three times and you both want to pull your hair out. It's a huge barrier in communication.

So maybe then what do we got to do? Like, what do we do to be better at hearing each other? Maybe even the way we say it, communicate our concerns, our issues, like, what do we need to do to have better, real communication with one another?

Well, it starts with recognizing those two barriers and where do they pop up for you, and then working on being aware of them and then bringing them down in the moment and asking yourself, why did that pop up? So this is some self Internal work that sometimes I get a little bit of pushback from leaders saying, well, if they just listen better, it'd be fine. Well, you as a leader are the cap for your team. If you're leading a company, you're the cap for the organization. So if you don't have a strong ability to listen, then you can't really expect your people to have a strong ability to listen to you. It's got to be a two way street. And so the recognition part is huge. And then the other part I think about Ron a lot that maybe goes back to the fear too, but is inviting your people to call you out when you're being fake or when you're putting up the wall. So I have that with my team and they will come to me and they will frequently say, grace, I feel like you got a wall up on this idea. You are not open to it. I say, yeah, actually you're absolutely right. Because look, we've got a process that works and then we can have real conversation about, yes, grace, the process works, but this is an improvement to it or this is the way that it could be shaped differently and this is where it's going to save us time and where then I don't keep us stuck and not innovating, having that accountability part too. And that's where I think it's important to have the common language around it to not just say, well, grace is change resistant. And so it's useless to try to talk to her, we'll just go around her and update the process because that doesn't work. But I see it happening with clients. And so it's that the awareness, the recognition, working on yourself and then holding your team members accountable to it as well and helping each other grow.

So talk about accountability because that, that word, that's a, that's a hot button word sometimes because it can be really frowned upon, like don't tell me what to do. Right. Sort of thing. Like. But talk about the importance of accountability in both directions, you know, from leadership down and up to leadership. Like, why do you think it's so. First of all, in my opinion, it can be difficult. Perhaps you disagree, I don't know. But, but, but what, what is it about it that makes it so tricky.

Man? Maybe I'll just speak to my experience around this because when I growing up, I did not have accountability. It didn't feel like I kind of got to do what I wanted to do and nobody held me accountable.

To your family, you mean?

Yeah, okay, yeah. And then in some of My first jobs I was hard worker. But nobody, we didn't necessarily talk about accountability. It was more just task based things.

Okay.

But I think if I were to really say, like, what's the rub on accountability is, you know, maybe for some people it's, you're not doing the job that you want to be doing. And so being held accountable to it sounds like nails on a chalkboard. But for me, I think every time somebody has held me accountable to what I say I'm going to do and I get really frustrated by it. It's because I'm frustrated with myself because I know that I am not performing at the level that I want to be, that I'm holding myself back. And so Ken, my business partner, might say, hey Grace, you said you were going to hit this sales number by this quarter and you didn't. What happened? And then I have to sit with that myself and say I didn't make the phone calls I needed to or I didn't have the numbers that I had to. And I have to sit with that disappointment myself. And I think that's where accountability feels really icky for people because they, we don't want to sit with where we fail.

Yeah, I think you was in. What I kept thinking when you were talking just now was the, the difference between sort of like leading indicators and lagging indicators. So in your example, your, your sales revenue or whatever, you know, like that's the ultimate lagging indicator. Right. Like, you know, how much money did we make or how many deals did we close? But then back up. All right, but how many calls did I make? Right. And so maybe as good leaders, the accountability comes in not just on like, hey, you didn't hit your sales number. Well, yeah, but I should have already known that you were behind on your number of sales calls. You said you were going to do 10 sales calls a day. Well, how did you, how did that go over the last week? Right. Did you make 50 this week? If talk to them on Friday, you know what I mean? So really kind of turning it around and thinking about that accountability on those leading indicators, because if you wait for the lagging indicator and then, then it's just like, okay, yeah, we all, we all lose. Yeah. If we didn't sell enough. Right. The whole company suffers, not just that individual. Right.

Yeah, that is a great distinction there. And then I think about the other part of your question was what about from the individual to leadership and the accountability side of things. And I think that goes back to the kind of culture you have because if you don't have leader who's willing to hold you accountable or they are weird or fearful around it, then you holding them accountable. That is the, the, the concept around managing up and that is exhausting. I have people ask me about that all the time, like, what if my company doesn't want to do this or I don't think my leader is going to do this. Like you can manage up for a while and hopefully there's change that happens. But if there isn't, it's exhausting. And especially when it comes to accountability for all the reasons that we talked about, that becomes really difficult.

Right. So maybe to wrap things up, I'm wondering if there's someone listening right now. Maybe they're. Maybe they're new, newer, newish if you will, to, to, to a company or maybe even just to the. That's a younger person that's just newer to working in general. Like, what are some pieces of advice that you could give them as it relates to all the things that we've been talking about?

You know, the classic one that always gets given to young people, I think is to find a mentor, which I think is good advice. But especially if you're in a larger company or even really a small one, is to figure out, you know, is it your manager, is it your leader, is it somebody else in the company? Find that person who they're on the trajectory that you want to be on or whatever it is, and then figure out how you can help them.

Yeah, right.

You can ask them for, to go to lunch and do coffee and ask them all kinds of questions, but that is not. You're not going to get nearly as much as if you ask them, hey, how can I help you? And maybe they let you in on a project or maybe they talk through something with you or they just see that you are somebody who wants to help. I think about my life and my career trajectory. It is because I found those people and I said, let me help you, let me help you.

Yeah.

And then they turn around, they're like, how can I help you? And then it becomes a win, win situation.

Man, I love that. It brings back so many memories for me when back in my earliest days, I've worked at two cell phone companies that now don't exist, but Motorola and Nokia was where I started my career as a young engineer. I mean, I remember just running around and this guy named Jory, Jory Feustools, his name and great guy. And he's so smart and he was, he was sort of like My boss, my mentor or whatever. And I really looked up to him. And, and I remember just in those early days, I would just sort of like follow him around and just offer to help and just not in a way, not being annoying or anything like that, but just finding ways to, to be involved and to, and to add value whenever possible. And if there was things that didn't nobody really wanted to do that had to get done, I just did them. You know what I mean? And I was dependable. Like I was. I don't know where I learned that from, maybe my parents or something, but just try to try to be dependable. Right. And you know, and then one thing leads to another and next thing you know, you're the boss kind of thing, you know. But yeah, but yeah, I remember those early days. It's, it's, it's fun to look back on that, on your, on your career and, and those people that, that really made an impression on you, you know.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Good stuff. Well, hey, this has been fun. Grace, we always have awesome conversations. I appreciate you coming back on. Do you have any sort of final words of wisdom or any pieces of advice you want to leave with the folks?

I think the biggest thing that I can ask for people is to just consider, take stock of your leadership. Whether you are in an actual leadership role or there's people who look to you. One of the amazing things quotes that it's also running around in my mind lately is that you. It was from a pastor at our church, but I think it's so applicable to business too. And he said you don't get to decide if you're a leader or not. Said another way, like people are going to follow you. What you do get to decide is if you are a good example of a leader or if you are a poor example of one. And so to me, the foundation of leadership is your ability to be honest and your ability to be open. And so my ask of people is to just sit with that for the next five minutes or so and just think how well am I doing that today? Where can I improve tomorrow? How can I be a good example of a leader? Yeah.

Awesome. Hey Grace, if people wanted to connect with you personally, what's the, what's the best way LinkedIn, all that kind of stuff.

You can either shoot me a message on LinkedIn, would love to have a conversation if you want to take this further, or send me an email. Simple as my email is graceowhonesty.com and that is K N O W. That's an important distinction. Little play on words there, but yeah, LinkedIn email. I love talking about this all day long. We could go forever, Ron.

No honesty. Die. So smart. You know, because you. Like you said, there's a little bit.

Of marketing in there.

Right, right, right. That's great. That's great. Easy to remember. Okay, wonderful. And we'll have everything linked up in the show notes so people can. Can find you there as well. So. All right. Well, hey, thanks again, Grace, and look forward to talking again down the road.

Yeah, thanks, Ron. I loved it.

All right, take care. Thanks for listening. Whether you've been on the continuous improvement journey for me many years, or perhaps you're just getting started, Gemba Academy is here to support you. And while we're best known for our more than 1500 lean and 6 Sigma teaching and virtual tour videos, we also have a team of experienced Lean and Six Sigma practitioners available for one on one coaching, as well as a variety of Lean and Six Sigma certification options. To learn more and to schedule a demo, head on over to gembaacademy.com.