GA 601 | The Power of NLP with Josh Davis and Greg Prosmushkin

NLP is a collection of tools for making changes happen very quickly and in a lasting way. And this could be helping other people to change or to change yourself.

What people need to understand. NLP is about Win. Win.

Today I am very excited to welcome Josh Davis and Greg Prasmushkin to the show. Now, Josh and Greg are experts in field of NLP or neuro linguistic programming, and that's what we talk about today. And if that sounds a little bit weird, if you're not familiar with nlp, trust me, you want to listen to this episode. You want to listen to it all the way to the end, because it's fantastic. And I say that about a lot of our podcasts, but this one in particular really moved me and I've really enjoyed it. So nlp, if you're not familiar with it, is a. Well, it's a way to sort of communicate better. It's a way to sort of harmonize with, with other people in a. In a better way. Now, it's also a misunderstood practice to some. Some people might even think it.

It.

It's a tool to manipulate or to get people to do what you want. And in some ways, you know, it for sure could be used that way. And we, we actually talk about that. But when you use it the proper way, and for us in improvement world, the way that we could use NLP is to make processes better. It could be we can use it to get more out of people and to communicate with people better. And it's just a fantastic way of operating. And so I would definitely encourage everyone to learn more about lmp. They've written a book, and we'll talk about the book here in a little bit. But. But yeah, all in all, fantastic episode. I think you're going to enjoy this. So this is episode 601. So just go to gemba podcast.com look for episode 601 for all the links and all the show notes. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Josh and Greg, welcome to the show. How's it going, guys?

Outstanding. Thank you for having us.

Yeah, it's great to be here.

All right, so where are you guys calling in from? Greg, where are you? Where are you located?

I am located in the sunny shores of Philadelphia, Ron. I'm uber excited to be on this call. Josh and I put together a terrific book and we can't wait to share it with your audience.

Nice, Nice. All right.

And Josh, I'm out here in Santa Monica, California, also on the sunny shores.

Yeah. Struggling out there with The. You know, the sun.

Right.

Nice. Nice. All right, well, I appreciate you guys coming on. So I know you guys know the drill. We like to begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote, so I'll let you both share one. I think you both have one.

Sure. I'll go first. Guys, my favorite quote is by Henry Ford. And that quote is, if you believe you can or you believe you can't, you're right. And that's basically the premise of our book. We are the captains of our ship, so whatever we believe is what happens in life.

Yeah.

Love it. Love it, Josh.

Yeah. And mine is by someone named Albert Ellis, who's one of the founders of cognitive therapy. He's mentioned in the book, too. And this quote is, there are three musts that hold us back. I must do well, you must treat me well, and the world must be easy. So he's saying those are limiting beliefs.

Okay, what's that mean to you?

Well, I find myself saying, oh, I have to do this. I must do this. I should do this. And when I do that, I remember. Wait a second. Albert Ellis told us a different way of. We catch yourself talking that way. That means that you're responding to just sort of beating yourself up. You're not really.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nice. Okay, good. All right, well, hey, guys, tell us a little bit about yourselves, maybe your. Your backgrounds, and then what you guys are up to these days. Greg, you want to go first?

Sure. My name is Greg, and I was not born in this country. My parents brought me to the United States in 1979 from Russia. We were facing severe discrimination out there. There was a glass ceiling for my parents, and we came here because we're Jewish. If I came here, I didn't speak a lick of English, so you could say that, you know, it started for nothing. And I finished law school. I'm a successful trial lawyer. I am. I've been very successful in my entrepreneurial life. And now Josh and I wrote this book, and we're hoping to share the technology of NLP that I've been using without knowing that I'm using it my entire life. And we're hoping to explain it to the world that this is a technology that's underutilized and must be more so because it's the secret to success. It really. If, Ron, if you look at every self help book out there and you crystallize it down to its core, it's nlp, Tony Robbins, Sig Ziggler, all these guys, it's nlp. They're Just you know, when you go to a restaurant, you eat a dish, you don't know what you're, you know all the ingredients but you think you're eating something and what NLP is. It's and ingredients to a very successful discord life.

Yeah. Yeah, okay.

And Josh, that's nice. I like that. You know I, you could think of it as the master code. It's like here's the stuff that, these are the pieces that are going to enable you to put it together however you want. I actually grew up around NLP neuro linguistic programming. My parents were some of the first people to learn about it and teach it. And then when I was in my 20s, I started studying it apart from them and then I started teaching it. I also went and got a doctorate so I've studied psychology and neuroscience and I was an Ivy League professor for a while and I've written a bunch of articles and now two books. And, and so I was teaching NLP and I was also very interested in research. And Greg comes to me and says we need to democratize this stuff. There's so many people out there not taking advantage of it because it isn't being taught in an accessible way. And he liked how I was teaching it so he talked me into this whole project and I'm so thankful for that. And so not only have we really worked to make it something that we're taking these 50 years of time tested tools and we're trying to make it very simple to understand and apply. And then also because of my background, we want to show people how it is supported by scientific research because that does matter to a lot of people. And, and, and we also want to make that piece very simple to understand. And so that's what we've worked for the last couple of years to do.

For folks who aren't familiar with nlp, give us just like sort of like an elevator pitch. We'll get in, I have some very specific questions we'll get to but just maybe just to level set everybody like what is it and why should anyone care?

So I think we have two explanation. There's the Josh explanation and the Greg explanation. Okay, Josh explanation is for really, really smart folks and then there's a great explanation for the rest of us. So I'll let Judge go first.

Okay.

All right, all right. You know the theory and the practice. So NLP is a collection of tools for making changes happen very quickly and in a lasting way. And this could be helping other people to change or to change yourself. So if you're working in any kind of operations or processes. You know, you need to change behavior and you need to get other people to change and change their attitudes and change their motivations. Right. And change their understanding of the big picture and so forth. Right. So the reason NLP is so effective is because it's built on, on a world there's, from psychotherapy actually. So this is not, it's, it's like these are people who are spending all day, every day trying to help people make changes, very significant changes in their life that, and, and ideally that will last them a lifetime. So you've got these practitioners who are figuring out what does it really take to help somebody make these important changes. And then we're kind of taking and saying, well, you can use this outside of therapy context too. We're not the first people to say this either. But that's what you can do with this stuff because you can dial down very quickly into what is it that's holding someone back, why are they holding back, and what would enable change specifically for that person in that context. It's always going to be different, but it's knowing the process to quickly find out what's going to be the difference that makes the difference for them.

All right. The way I like to explain is that when all of us are born, we are gifted, this really powerful computer called our brain, but nobody really teaches us how to use it. You know, they try to program it, they give us math, they give us history, they give us our parents tell us how to behave, but nobody teaches us how to use the brain. And as a result, we get in a lot of trouble in life because we are faced with events that are shaded by other events. And what we see as the reality is just the reality is the way we see it, it's not the real reality. What NLP does, it makes us better at everything. It makes us better decision makers, it makes us better communicators, it makes us better thinkers. So I think the best way from my perspective to describe nlp, it's a manual how to use your brain much more efficiently than the way we've been using it, without it.

Okay, so let's jump in then with some specific questions. So there's this whole idea of a well formed outcome. And I'm wondering if. I know you guys can choose who takes this, but maybe talk a little bit about how it improves the odds of success maybe compared to sort of like more traditional goal setting approaches.

All right, yeah, I'll take this one. So I think a Lot of times people might be, you know, very passionately want something, like, I need to make a change. It's time. I'm finally going to make a change, right? I'm going to get out of this job or I'm going to make this happen, or this, this person, or this, this issue that's been frustrating me. I'm going to finally deal with it, right? And you can want that as powerfully as you want it. You know, you can want that your whole life. And that's not what's going to make the difference in whether you take action. Those that, that's a kind of a typical outcome statement that people have, like, no more I want to make this change. Sometimes they also have somewhere they want to go. It's just like, you know, damn it, I want to start my own business, right? I want to, you know, I'm finally going to make that thing happen. In both cases though, we're talking about something that's kind of vague and it's very hard to achieve your goal that way. So let's take the first case. That's a situation where you're running away from something, can be a really powerful motivator, can get you to start moving. But where to, in what direction? So the first chapter of our book, we call it do you know where you're going? And that's what this well formed outcome is about. That there are these five criteria that have been identified in nlp that if you've met these criteria, you have a very good chance of making progress on your goal. And if you haven't met, if there's even one of them that you haven't met one of these criteria, you are probably not going to get very far on this goal. So one of them, one of the key ones, and we don't have to go through them all. But just for example, if you're just running away from something, where are you going to? It's very hard to get there. So you need to articulate, well, what do I want? I don't want to be stuck in this situation anymore. What specifically do I want? That's an important piece. Also, if you are saying, well, we need to change the way we work in this team, okay, great. What specifically does that look like? Where are we headed to? Okay. And it's like, okay, we need to communicate better, fine, so maybe you know where you're going in that sense a positive thing. But what does that mean to communicate better? How could you say, okay, we're communicating better, we actually are doing that so here's another piece, one of the other. So, so we've got where, where are we going to? Not just where we're coming from. You tap into a totally different motivational system, emotional system. When you do that and you know what direction you're headed to, you've got to know the towards. But then you've also got to get specific. When, where, with whom, what does this really look like? Needs to be something that you could actually identify. But so, so those are some of the other criteria. But here's one more that I'll just articulate, which is this one is often a real eye opener for people. Is it in your control? Let's say we need to communicate better as your goal is that in my control that you and I communicate better. Not entirely. Anything that has to do with another person is not entirely within my control. If your outcome is not in your control, we would not call it a well formed outcome. Now it's not bad to want that, it's great to have that as a general aim, a rough target. But if we really want to get there, I need to think about what is within my control. That's going to help move me in the right direction. And if I put my energy on that, I'm much more likely to get to the outcome. Partly because if I'm evaluating myself on something that's not in my control, I'm going to keep thinking, oh, I failed, or wait, I think I'm succeeding. And it's based on nothing, it's just based on my feelings and that makes it very hard to keep moving. But if I'm focused on what is in my control, I can really work on that. You know, it's in my control to ask you questions. It's in my control to wonder whether I understand. It's in my control to take responsibility for my communication and so forth. Right. So it's these kinds of criteria and once people hear them, it's much easier to say, I get it, I see how that's, that's relevant. But then you can start asking yourself the question whenever you're setting up an outcome for each of these five criteria and then you're on the way. And you can do this for people you work with too. If you're managing someone, you're managing a team, you, you make sure that the outcomes, you start with the well formed outcome.

Yeah. So I have, I want to dig into NLP just a little bit here, but before I do, just sort of a, like as I'm fascinated with the, with the whole topic, and I've studied it a bit over the years, but there was actually like, I've, I've heard some criticism of NLP even when I was sort of learning it. And it was that, you know, you could in theory use it to sort of manipulate people.

Right.

And to get them to sort of like a dark art, if you will. Now you give a bad person anything and they can, they can do bad. Right. So I'm not saying nlp, it's just a tool, right. But like, have you heard that, that sort of, that criticism that, you know, it's sort of a manipulative sort of mechanism.

I think Ron, anytime they teach salesmen anything, it's a form of manipulation. You're trying to be a better whatever.

You are closer, close the deal. Right.

Abc always be closing. Right. So Josh and I are very specific in our book that anything can be misused. But, but what people need to understand, NLP is about win, win when you manipulate it to win, lose. So we're talking about building relationship, long term relationship. We're talking about growing and gaining credibility. Look, you can, I think Lincoln said it right, you can fool some of the people all the time, other people some of the time, but you can't fool everybody all the time. This is, anybody can go out and trick somebody for the first time, you know, because people choose, at least people, I choose to believe that people are generally good. Yeah, people are there to do the right thing. So if somebody takes advantage of me the first time, it's, you know, shame on them. But we all know what happens the second time. So I think that in any technology, including for example, AI, there is potential for abuse.

Yeah.

But the way we teach it, the way we present it, we, we insist on ethical use because unless you use it ethically, I think it's a lose for everybody long term.

Yeah, no, that's well said. That's well said and I totally agree. So. All right, well let's jump in a little bit on maybe some, I don't know. Can you give us some examples of where you've seen NLP used to sort of help people sort of break through goals or you know, just achieve more in their, with their lives.

And I'm starting to jump in. This happened to me yesterday as we were speaking before the podcast run. I took my door daughter and she's a freshman at the University of Tennessee. I drove her to college and my.

Wife, I'm sorry, Go Vols.

Right.

So we drove a rental car to Knoxville from Philly and we Flew back. And I drove at 8am to return the car back to Avis. And I was the first customer. And I walked in and this woman working the counterman, she looked miserable. She was like, she. I thought she wanted to stab me in the eye with a pen. And my first reaction was the mirror back. What she's giving me. But Josh and I wrote a book that says, always assume good intentions. Everybody does what they do not to upset us, but because they're doing to satisfy some kind of a need. So what I said to her, I said, you know what? I'm not going to use her name because she was a lovely young lady. I don't want to call her out. And I said, you know what? It's 8am and you're already having a horrible day. I conceived. Is there anything I can do to make it better? And I got to tell you, the paradigm shift just happened right then and there because I went to her world. I didn't expect her to come to mind. I said, look, I get it. And she said, you know what? Thank you so much. I've been working for the past three weekends. My boss simply doesn't want to work. And she's making me work every weekend. I have kids, it's Sunday, I want to go to church. And then she went out of her way to be so helpful. It was just. It made my heart work. So that's nlp, because you're encountering people in their terms, not on your own. If I went in there, I'll say that rude. So and so. You know what I'm going to show her, it would have been a completely disruptive experience for the both of us. I would have left there feeling not great. She would have been feeling not great. But because I took the time to understand where she's coming from, we had a really nice interaction.

Yeah.

Wow, that's good. It is interesting. So talk a little bit about. I know there's some specific aspects to nlp. If you read a book or whatever. There's mirroring and pacing and different things like that. So talk a little bit about some of the, I don't know, the techniques of NLP or the methods maybe is a better. I don't know what, how do you describe it?

Yeah, yeah. And there's. This is the thing. There's so many. Because this comes from studying these great change makers who, you know, looking at the, you know, so there's ways that people talk, ways that people use their body language. And so you mentioned two of them. Mirroring, pacing, and leading, which are great. You know, what Greg did was an example of pacing and leading. You go at their pace, you meet the person where they are, and you have to do that pretty much every time you interact, every time you're talking with someone, you know, I say, you have to. You get to. I mean, if you meet them where they are, you respect their reality. You say, I agree, the world is as you see it, at least on some level, right? Or at least I'm at least. Even if I don't agree, I respect that. That is your world, right? When. When people feel heard and seen, they open up, they're ready to listen, right? And then you can lead them somewhere else. But if they don't, I mean, when you have somebody who, you know, you've come in, you say, like, wow, we're really being taken advantage of here. Right? And then they say to you, no, you're not. Come on, are you ready to just open up and trust them? No. You're like, yeah, you know what? I see how you're being taken advantage of. It really does feel that way. Okay. I actually see it a little differently. Are you open to hearing me? Of course. You're more likely to listen, right? I've met you where you are. That's. That's pacing and leading. And what's really kind of unexpected about pacing and leading is. And this is where. Tapping into mirroring. You mentioned mirroring. A lot of it actually gets communicated non verbally. So this is. And this is one of those things also. You'll see like. Like this is a very robust finding in psychology research as well, that when people are in sync somehow non verbally, like if you're leaning forward and I'm kind of leaning forward, people, when they're getting along, they tend to just sort of copy each other a little bit. Not like copying in like, you're making fun of me way. But there's some things, right? Or if Greg and I are talking and we're having like some rapport and things are working my. If you were to analyze my speech, it's actually shifting a little bit towards his speech and vice versa, right? And that's just unconscious. And sometimes we can kind of be a conscious of these things and do it a little bit on purpose and like, wait a second, let me meet them where they are. And some people might say, well, that's a little inauthentic. I'm not being myself. Well, we think that it's actually a different and more useful way of thinking of it, is that it's being respectful. You know, I respect the fact that you're a little bit different from me. Let me try to join you. And if I join you, even breathing with you non verbally, we pick these things up unconsciously and we're like, wait a second, let me give this person a chance. You can't manipulate anyone because they'll see it, right? Well, maybe you can one time transactionally. But if your aims are good, and if you look at the presuppositions, the foundational beliefs of nlp, which is the first third of our book, they're all very positive aims. I would say you're not really doing NLP if you're not adopting those. Right. If your aims are good, you're aiming to respectfully meet the other person where they are and beget curious about their world. And this is a way of communicating to them. If I'm mirroring in some way and matching in some way, I'm non verbally communicating, I get you and a weird thing happens, I start to get you more. Also, if you take on someone's breathing and their movement and their pace of speaking, you actually start to kind of understand their perspective a little bit better. It's a really interesting, like, cool thing to play with.

What about in times of conflict? Someone just ticks you off. They're being jerks and ugly and whatever you're feeling wrong, whether you have been or not, you're feeling, you know, damaged. What about nose? Really difficult situations. Is there any way that NLP can help?

Absolutely. Greg, since I was just talking, do you want to take it or should I keep going?

You can keep going. I'll jump in.

Okay, so first of all, you always have options, right? You can walk away. We're not going to say you should always handle it in one way or another. You can make a mistake and you can recover. You can always rebuild rapport. One thing that's great to do if you find yourself mentally at a point, somehow in that interaction, in that conflict, either coming back to it later or you're partway into it and you're like, wait a second, I don't want it to go this way, is you could, if you wanted to take advantage of these tools. We were just talking about pacing and leading and mirroring. If someone's coming at you and they're really agitated and they've got like, they're kind of angry. If you're just trying to do the opposite and be like, you gotta calm down, right? It makes them feel not heard. Right. But if you if you say, if you let them know this is emotional for you too with your words, especially if you can do it with your body a little bit also. But like, but like, look this, like, like this is, this is not okay. Right. Like, like I get like, you, you're pissed at me, right. And I'm pissed at you right now. Like, we're not seeing each other eye to eye. Right. I mean, and. Right. Let me just join you a little bit at least, like, acknowledge the emotions are real. Yeah. It makes it easier to then kind of calm down and talk. Now. There's many other things we can do also.

Right.

There's, there's, we can kind of step out of it. And here's something that's very useful that I'll just say as a general pattern, you know, you're going to get into conflict. We don't have to wait for it. There's a lot of ways you can plan ahead. Right. I can have. And I've done this personally myself. I've also guided other people too. But when I'm getting into conflict with someone or I'm getting worried about what they're going to say or do, I have a mental image in my mind that's kind of blown out of proportion right up close. This person kind of almost shouting in my face. That mental image is an important part of my mental representation of the situation. We think in pictures in big ways. You can actually change that picture. So I've learned ahead of time, for me, that happens. I can take that picture and anyone listening can do this right now. Some situation where there's someone who really bothers you, you probably have a mental picture in mind. What happens when you make that picture far away and small? Suddenly, for a lot of people at least, the negativity turns down a little bit, the intensity turns down. Sometimes people even laugh about it. Sometimes people can step out and get third person perspective. So now I know I can use that. All I have to do is remember in that moment, wait a second, and then just change the mental image and suddenly I'm not getting triggered. I'm not just reactive in the moment. So there's many things you can learn to do ahead of time that you can then just remember in the moment.

The only thing I would add is, I think once we're. First of all, it's very difficult. I think anytime you're in a heated exchange, everything becomes significantly more difficult for everybody. So I think the first thing that we have to do is to decide the outcome. What do we want from this encounter, do we want to break it off? Because sometimes the thing we want to do, we want to extricate from this safely, and we just want to get out of the situation. And there are situations where we're trying to make it right. For example, you know, for arguing with a significant other or our kids. That's one thing. Another thing, it's a road rage incident on the side of the road, and there's a crazy guy jumped out of his truck. And, you know, you don't want to say, well, tell me what.

Tell me how you're feeling. Yeah.

So I think the first. The very first step is, do we. What is our outcome? Do we want to convince the person, do we want to shun their point, or do we want to get the hell out of it without getting our asses kicked in the process? Right. So once we determine that, then everything else kicks in. So it's difficult. And we're not saying that our book will solve it. What we're saying is one of the key presuppositions of NLP is the more flexible you are, the more likely you are to handle the situation that you're in. We're just giving some tools.

Yeah.

To people to say, well, if you are in a situation and you can't get out of, or you don't want to get out of, here are some tools you can use to make the situation better.

Yeah.

And we've already talked about this a little bit, but I want to just make sure that we haven't missed anything. So obviously the people listening to this podcast are, you know, folks in sort of various leadership roles. There are continuous improvement practitioners, so they're trying to make things better in companies and people's lives, that sort of thing. So where do you think NLP can play a role with these folks to sort of help them become better at communicating, being better managers and leaders and just general people?

Well, I think that what NLP does, it makes us understand. It makes us understand ourselves and others. And it's really, as Josh said earlier, you can't get somewhere if you don't know where you're going. So if you were to get in a boat on the side of a river and you were to go with the current, you're going to get somewhere. There's no question about it. You may not want to get to where you're going, but you are going to wind up somewhere. Or you could say, I want to go over there and you get the orange and you start rowing to where you need to go. There are ways, and there are good ways, and there are better ways. We believe NLP is a better way for you, whoever you may be, whether you're a housewife, a supervisor, or a CEO of a company, to understand yourself and understand others. And if you're able to understand yourself and appreciate the world that others are in, you're gonna be much more effective in communicating with them. And that's NLP is. It's a communication tool.

Okay, man, I could talk to you guys all day about this topic because I'm truly fascinated. And I don't have your book yet, full disclosure, but I definitely plan to order it as soon as we get off here. So I'm wondering if there's any. I don't know, is there any sort of final thoughts, things that you want to, you know, final plugs for NLP that folks should be considering or, or thinking about?

Yeah, yeah. So one is that, you know, if you already know nlp, there's so much more you can dive into, but if you don't, I think you're, you know, you're. You're leaving a lot on the table. You're missing out on a lot of powerful stuff. Here's one thing that you can kind of use right now, okay, to your question as a, As a team leader or as a manager or as, you know, process improvement, one thing that you can do right now is just apply this belief from nlp. You can just start thinking about it as you enter every conversation you have today. If you don't like it, you don't have to think about it ever again. The meaning of your communication is the response you get. So that's something we invite people to believe. The meaning of your communication is the response you get. We're not saying that they're right and you're wrong. Now that's, you know, we'll never know. Like, well, my intention mattered. This is what I meant. I said it. I shouldn't have to explain myself. I'm in the power position or I've explained myself before. These people just need to. Whatever, right? Lots of things we can tell ourselves to try to feel good or. But how's that going for you? Are you getting your needs met? This belief, the meaning of your communication is the response you get, which essentially means how my message landed matters more than what I meant.

Right.

If you take that and you could never know exactly, like, is this true or not true or not arguing about that, is it useful? How are you likely to take responsibility differently when you speak? How are you likely to approach the other person? Are you likely to spend some time thinking about their context and how your message might fit with that? Are you likely to follow up with questions? Are you likely to do something to ensure that your message landed? Are you likely to think about why do I want to even communicate in the first place? Right. So if you allow yourself to say, you know what, I'm just going to see how this goes for a day. I'm going to take responsibility for how my message landed. No matter what I communicated. I'm going to look at their behavior and say, okay, I guess that's what I communicated. I didn't mean to. Let me follow up. Let me see how if you just take this to heart, see what happens. If you kind of really make this kind of a deep belief that you show up with. You just presuppose in all of your conversations today.

Yeah, It's a very selfless way of sort of approaching life, right? Yeah, yeah.

Yes, it's selfless. It's all about being curious about the other person's mental model and what's beautiful about that.

That sort of is a perfect sort of countermeasure to the idea that LP is used to manipulate and to get what you want or whatever.

Right.

It's sort of.

It's the opposite. It's the opposite. That's why I would say you're not really doing what I would call NLP if you're manipulating somebody.

Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Hey, what's the name of the book again, guys?

The Difference that makes the Difference.

The Difference that Makes the Difference.

Okay.

And we are going to have it linked up in the show notes. So I encourage everyone to, to go out and get it. Hey, if folks wanted to connect with both of you guys individually or as a team or whatever, what's the best way?

I think the best way is to email either myself or josh@gregnlpdifference.com or joshopference.com the other thing is that this. Ron and I hope it's okay if any of your readers read. I'm sorry, your listeners order the book and they enjoy it, they can email either me or Josh. And Josh and I talked about this prior. We will do a free one hour webinar for your listeners on NLP if there's an interest.

Okay, well, fantastic. Fantastic. That's great. All right, well, hey guys, I really appreciate you both coming on and this has been a lot of fun.

Thank you so much.

Thanks.

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