GA 605 | The Katalyst Framework with Katie Anderson

So we're used to being the one with all the answers, or we were rewarded earlier in our careers in school or when we're getting started for being the person who got the job done. But the shift needs to happen where it's not always each of us individually doing the project or solving the problem or rushing in to save the day, but how are we building the capability across the organization?

Today, I am very excited to welcome Katie Anderson back to the show. Now, longtime listeners of the podcast. Podcast have heard Katie before. She's fantastic. She has, I think it's safe to say Katie has more positive energy than anybody in our lean community. She's just always smiling, always high energy, and just, just a blast to talk to. So. So today we, we cover a lot of different topics, but kind of open up with. So Katie wrote a book called Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. And it came out right, right around five years ago. And so I kind of wanted, I was curious, like, with authors, like since writing that book and sort of you had to go back and add something to it or update it, what would you say? And so we had a really good conversation about that. Katie then kind of got into this. She has this framework that she's created called a kata list, and it's kata, like Toyota Kata, K A T A. And so we kind of get into that change leader model and really exploring what is that and why did she create it and what's it all about and how can we as lean and continuous improvement practitioners benefit from it? And then we just really just got into kind of the things that she's been learning over the years because she's always learning, she's always exploring, and we really just sort of dive deep into that. She takes folks to Japan on these trips and she's done a number of those. So we also get into that. And what has she learned over there? And then kind of towards the end, it was, I was curious because she's pretty connected with, with the country of Japan. She knows what's going on over there. So kind of explored like what's going on in their country as it relates to things like AI and are they sort of similar to us in America? Are they ahead? Are they behind? And so that was a really good part of the conversation as well. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com look for episode 605. Again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 605. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Katie, welcome back to the Show. How's it going?

Thanks, Ron. It's so great to be back to reconnect and talk with you. It's been a little while, and. Yeah, excited to catch up and to share our insights with your audience.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I didn't even look up. I mean, you've been on a number of times over the years, so. But we'll have. We'll link all your other episodes up in the show notes. Everybody can go back and check those ones out if they. If they missed them, but. Well, Katie, you know the drill. You've been on a million times, so we like to get things going with our guest sharing a quote. So what do you got?

Yeah, I know I was debating between two. Which are like my two guiding quotes, but I am going to go with today's a great day. And that's a quote by my dad and why it's. It was his motto of living life. And, you know, we talked briefly before about how it's been almost nine years since he passed away from als and he was an accomplished, you know, accomplished surgeon. So much more. And had physical disabilities from the, you know, a time when he was in his 20s, he had a motorcycle accident, and it didn't matter. He focused on all the things you could do and the things that were fan. Like, how did you use positive thoughts and energy to pull you through the challenging times? And next weekend, I am riding in a charity bike ride to raise money for ALS. It's the 10th annual bike ride that I've done for Team Hardy. And so really, this motto, today's a great day is top of mind because it's up. No matter if. Even if you're having a pretty, you know, pretty bad day, we can still find a way to find something good and use that as the anchor to come forward. So today's a great day.

I love that. Yeah. And also just to be grateful, you know, like, just being, you know, for, I mean, my gosh, all the blessings that. That we have. Right. Living in free country and, you know, clean water to drink. No.

Right. It could be. It is. It's a. It's a space of gratitude. Right. So, you know, it could even be, like, the sun shining, and I can feel that, you know, and sometimes we're grateful, the big things, and sometimes it's really the simple things. That space of gratitude and grounding can really help us move through the challenges. So I really. I really love that.

Fantastic.

My inspiration.

Well, hey, Katie, in case people have missed the previous episodes or live under a lean Rock or something like that. Tell us about who's Katie and what you're up to and maybe your background, that sort of thing.

Yeah, I like to say I'm a. I'm a learning enthusiast. You know, it kind of brings forward my passion for learning, my. My passion in general and my enthusiasm for really creating cultures of continuous improvement and operational excellence where everyone's engaged and capable of contributing to making not only their work better, but the world better. And I've gone through a bit of a career journey, but I have had my own business now, working with leaders around the world to really figure out how they can create those organizations. I'm the host also of I Don't think this is New since our last conversation for two years now. I'm the host of the Transformation Informational leadership podcast Chain of Learning. And I wrote a Shingo award winning book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. Lessons from Toyota leader ASAO Yoshino on a lifetime of Continuous Learning. Based on my now 10 years of friendship and relationship with Toyota leader Isao Yoshino that started when I lived in Japan a decade ago, and now I take leaders around the world. Over 130 people have come with me to Japan to have an immersive learning and leadership experience. So I'm excited. I do that several times, twice a year. It has been since the pandemic. So it's. That's just a little bit of what I do, but really I'm just passionate about how do we. How do we create the behaviors and energy in our organizations that really help people thrive. And in doing so, we're able to get the business outcomes and create value for customers.

Your book came out, was it about five years ago, is that right?

Yep, July of 2020. So right, like, right. Yeah, right when we were all locked down and I had a moment of like, panic or. Not one moment of panic, many moments of panic. Like, do I go forward and even publish the book? And that actually has a great time. Right. We were. Everyone was home and wanted to read something and so. And, you know, the book shares a lot of, you know, the things that people have said over the last five years. You know, I captured Mr. Yoshino's 40 years and more of experience of his career at Toyota through some really important inflection points in the organization where they were really creating this culture that we now sort of assume was always there, but it was really an intentional choice by leaders. But he talked about a lot of the failures and challenges, and I think that's resonated the most with people because we all have challenges. And so you read an academic book, but to hear someone's real experience of what that was like in moving through that challenge. He has the same motto. Not, not the same motto, Today's a great day. But his whole, his whole thing is about how do you focus on the positive and how do you focus on the good. And through that you'll be able to find. To find the learning and find the positive, the positivity through it.

So speaking of learning. So it's been a minute since you've released that book.

Yes.

So I know you and I know you're always learning and always changing and always evolving. So what have you learned maybe since writing the book and maybe if he had to go back and do an updated version of the book or whatever and now author. You authors do that, right? Then you can go, yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, it's. So I'm always asked like are you going to make a second edition? And I say well of that book. No, because I really did. It was like Mr. Yoshino's story. And of course we now we've had five more years of reflection, so maybe there's could be an addendum there and you could always go back and just keep editing something into perpetuity. Our good friend Karen Martin gave me a great piece of advice when I was publishing. She said, know that you could always go back and change wording or phrasing or what you said, because your thinking is going to continue, evolve, but you need to let your book be sort of a moment in time. So yes, my thinking has evolved. I think it's got just gotten more crystallized into really about how do we do this in our organizations? Like how do we really influence change and make that shift from more of that traditional command and control leader has all the answers focus on the short term that so many of our organizations sort of are caught in to really this one of empowered problem solving at all levels. And it starts with leadership. It has to be of course, engaging the front line. But we really have to help senior leaders see that this is the way to, to do something better. And that requires a lot of vulnerability and a lot of influence skills from us as lean enthusiasts and continuous improvement enthusiasts.

Yeah. So. All right, well, so tell us about sort of this, this framework that you've. You've come up with caught a list but we'll. Let's start with the spelling of it.

Yeah.

Since we're only speaking here.

So yeah, this actually. So I, I've developed a change leader model, competency model of all the influence and sort of more social skills we need to pair with all the continuous improvement technical skills. So it's not to negate those, those are super important. But I've really discovered in my work with change teams around the world or you know, individuals who are trying to lead lean transformation in their organizations that we get stuck sometimes and these other skills aren't as easily sort of taught or read about. And so to take a step back, if we want, you know, the word catalyst with a C that we know from science is to you accelerate the rate of change. And I liked this mashup of the word kata that we've come to know in our circles as, you know, referring to the Toyota Kata, which is the kata just being a word in Japanese meaning routines and practices coming from, you know, from martial arts. But if we, if we take that sort of meaning of kata as it relates to the patterns in thinking about scientific thinking and learning and coaching for that, if we, if we put that on top of catalysts to become a catalyst, it's about how do we accelerate the rate of change through a focus on learning and scientific thinking and creating that as the capability and seeing that as the accelerant for change. And then within that I have an acronym of eight different competencies that are really important. And some of them are if you go back to chain of learning episode nine, I go through these and even my thinking's evolved since I've come out with that. But we focus a lot on coaching. We know that we need to be a good coach or facilitation. We need to facilitate workshops and meetings, but we don't talk as much about what does it mean to be a knowledgeable business communicator. I see this happening all the time with lean enthusiasts. We get so passionate about the tools because we know they work. And so we get so excited. Like let's do a kamishi by board or let's do an A3 or let's, you know, do hijunka and like that. Like leaders eyes kind of glaze over and they're like you're leading with the tools and methodology and actually maybe some words that you know, they don't understand and so maybe almost creating a barrier. So how do you speak the language of business? Really understand the results and the context that leaders are in and then make sure that you're framing things in a way that are going to resonate and connect and then, you know, how are you a yes minded persuader not just pushing your ideas because you're so enthusiastic about it. And I know I was. I've been. You know, this has definitely happened for me, especially in my earlier days where I was so passionate about an outcome that I knew was possible that I kind of pushed it. But we have to create the poll, so it's not persuading by just like dumping all the facts and data on people. But how do we create that, that. That sense of personal buy in that. Yeah, this is the change I want to be part of and be there too, and then bring in the coaching. So it's like, it's really talking about all these skills that we need to have to really move from, like, transactional process improvement projects, which are great, you know, as a starting place, but truly creating transformational change in our organizations and the skills we need to bring people along on that journey.

What are some of, like, the biggest mistakes you see organizations or perhaps leaders make make when they're trying to get maybe they're genuinely trying to make continuous improvement and, you know, an important part of their company culture. Like, what are some of the mistakes you see folks doing?

Yeah. And like, I first want to say, like, I have made all these mistakes. Right. Like, I think we all do. Like. Right. So it's like a learn. It's a learn by personal reflection and. And experience as well. When I see this happening over and over again, I talk actually a lot about what I call the doer trap. And I see that there are five different roles. Whether or not you're a continuous improvement practitioner, a change leader, or a manager, director, executive, we tend to fall into the doing rather than creating the enabling for others to do so. We're used to being the one with all the answers, or we were rewarded earlier in our careers in school or when we're getting started for being the person who got the job, job done. But the shift needs to happen where it's not always each of us individually doing the project or solving the problem or rushing in to save the day, but how are we building the capability across the organization and so we can fall into these doer traps in a variety of ways. Like, the first is that, well, it's like the firefighter. So you're coming in to save the day. The hero. Right. So the hero comes in to save the day, and we tend to reward heroes in our organization. Right. But we need to really work on that fire prevention or the second role is what I call the rescuer, and that's related to the hero, but it comes From a different angle, we want to save people from the struggle of not having the right answer, knowing the next step and what we've really learned. Especially in that the Toyota Kata talks a lot about this too. It's like you have to have the right learning zone, enough challenge and enough support, but you inherently don't have the right answer or know how to do something immediately. So we have to get a little more comfortable with not just saving people from that, that struggle, but knowing that we need to support them differently through the learning, you know, and then there's some other ways that we can fall into that by becoming a surrogate leader. Like maybe you have a leader who doesn't, you know, they kind of, they have, they have buy in or they say they support a project or initiative, but they're not really showing up to do the leadership. And so you really want the project to be successful. So you're jumping into the kind of do that leadership role. But when you move on, that capability from the management perspective hasn't been enabled there. So there are a lot of different ways that we can show up in this doer trap. And I think I see that as one of the biggest barriers. Regardless of what your role is, that inhibits us from truly being able to create that capability and confidence across the organization, the systems and structures and problem solving. To have it not just be you doing the doing, but to have that capability built there.

Gosh, what you were just saying a while ago makes me, reminded me of, had a personal situation come up recently with a pretty good friend of mine who's going, going through a really difficult, you know, I won't get into details of it, but a different difficult part of their life kind of thing. And, and I was just like, I, you know, I said, I don't know, I have no words, you know, but I'll just sit here with you.

Yeah.

You know, and we'll just, we'll do it together. And you know, it's like sometimes we, we in continuous improvement, we think we can fix everything. Right. You know, but sometimes you just gotta just be there as human beings, you know, for each other. Right.

That's the, the best way in that situation that you can provide that help. And I, I really believe so much of this doing that we fall into comes from a genuine place of wanting to be helpful. You know, Adria Shine talks about that we want to be helpful, but we, we then jump in to save the day in different capacities or to get the project done because we don't want it to Fail. And then what would that reveal? Or, you know, become that pair of hands just doing things, but not guiding the, the initiative or.

Yeah.

You know, like doing it behind the scenes. What I call the magician, you know, but just sitting there. And that varies for each, you know, each individual in each situation. But I'm sure if you had jumped in and like just told your friend, like, oh, here's all the things you can do. And like, yeah, that actually doesn't.

This experiment, you know.

They just needed to be heard and like, yeah, that deep human connection of I see you're struggling and I feel that. And I'm here to.

Yeah, exactly.

Be here with you. Yeah, exactly. Wow.

So I'm curious to hear more about your. Your podcast journey. Like, like one thing I always ask people. I mean, obviously you're in business, so it's good marketing. And then we do podcasts for marketing and exposure and all that. Sure. But like, there's got to be a deeper meaning. Like, why did you start it?

What.

What problem are you trying to solve?

And yeah, no, for. So great, great question. So I had, you know, I've been doing, obviously I've been a podcast guest for a long time. I'm a keynote speaker. I'm very comfortable talking podcast voice. Yes, I know, Yes. I don't have the good podcast equipment now. Like that. That was. And I had actually been doing informal podcasting, I'd say, but not like I was putting things up on like I was doing author interviews with people in our community for years and putting those interviews up on YouTube. And then sort of, I guess it was a slow roll into the podcast. Then I was like, oh, people were wanting to listen to it on the go, not just listen on YouTube. So I created an audio channel for that. And I kind of been dragging my foot. Cause I, I knew because I'm a bit of a high achiever, I want to do something new, I want to do it well and do it right. That if I started up, if I was going to invest the time and money and energy into really doing kind of more formal podcast, I wanted it to be something that was sort of up level, not just me jumping on a zoom call and having conversations, which was. There's a lot that's great there. But the impetus that kind of pushed. Tipped me over the edge is that two years ago, two summers ago, Larry Culp from. He was the CEO of General Electric and now the CEO of GE Aerospace. I had actually interviewed him at ame. I think this is the last time I saw you In Ame Dallas. On the stage there, we had a fireside chat. And so he had recommended my book to everyone in ge, and he was putting on this event in New York City, and his team invited me to be there, to be as a. Like, as an influencer in our space, where I could interview people at. At the event and put it on my podcast. And I was like, oh, I don't really have a real podcast. And so it really. So, like, all right, the world is telling me it's time to move forward. And so it was. It was. It was a great impetus. And I was like, okay, now's the time. I'm gonna do this. My whole team and others have been saying, when are you gonna start a podcast? So it was. That was the tipping point. And you can go back and hear some of those. I have snippets of the interviews. And I got to meet Carol Dweck, the author of Mindset, at that event. She actually lives near me here at Stanford, near Stanford University. So she was one of my first guests on Chain of Learning. I'm like, okay. The opportunity to interview Carol Dweck to go to this incredible event. And a lot of all these videos that from the speakers from this event are on YouTube. I recommend anyone listening to this go find. Search for the Lean Mindset and go look at these videos. It's from people, you know, famous athletes, business leaders. So much more about their role of what they see the world of continuous improvement mean in their industry and their leadership. But it was an incredible opportunity. And so that was the impetus. And so I was actually debating whether I called the podcast Leading to Learn, which had been sort of the informal name of my other audio podcast, or Chain of Learning. So those are both terms that are trademark under me. And I just thought it was Leading to Learn is so connected to my book. And I love that. I love the concept of a chain of learning that, like, this is what we're building here, that we're all connected as learners and leaders together. And I saw. I see a podcast is a way that we build our chain of learning. So we're sharing ideas, and then those ideas move forward and you can implement that. And so it's sort of of how we grow a chain of learning. So that was. That was the impetus. And, yeah, now I'm over 50. I turned 50 and have 50 episodes of my podcast this year. So it's a big milestone.

Congratulations. You do a great job.

Thank you. Thank you. And, like, yeah, so it's. And, you know, it's Interesting. So you were talking Ron about, like, what have I learned? And I. Since writing the book. And I think one of the things I've learned is different formats also require a different skill. And so I actually had to put myself in that learner mode because even though I'm a very comfortable keynote speaker talking here so much more actually doing the. Especially the solo episodes, I thought those would be really easy, but I realized creating them In a format that's 25 minutes or so, that's tight, that didn't feel fully scripted, but was that I had a flow. It actually required me to go through some learning and some iteration, and it felt awkward for a while. And I'd spent way too much time in sort of planning out the first episodes. I'm in a much better flow now, so it really shows how you can learn. But I had to sort of practice what I preach, you know, that it's okay to be in learning mode, and it's also okay to put imperfect things out there. And I think you probably know this as a podcaster too. You just have to be comfortable with it being imperfect, and that's okay. And that's part of the beauty of, like, a conversation here. And it's. Yeah, so that was that.

It's so interesting that you say that. I was. My son, Ryan, he's a musician. Like, he plays, like, country music. He's. He's 19 years old and he's.

He's.

He's. He's doing really well. Like, he's got a massive following on. On, like Tick Tock. You know, these kids, you know, they're all on Tick Tock, right. So he goes by Ryan Price. His middle name's Price Pereira, I guess doesn't. But anyhow, he. He. All his videos that he does with him playing, you know, for TikTok, it's just him with his old iPhone that we haven't upgraded. His iPhone freeware. Like, you're old enough to get your own iPhone. So he's got this super old iPhone and, like, two cameras on it still, I think. And he just props it up and he sings this song and he posts it. And he's got like, you know, many, many thousands of teenage girls, you know, screaming over him. And there's something very, like, lovely about that.

That it's just.

It's raw. It's not perfect. The audio is not great because it's an old iPhone that he props up. But if, you know, I'm convinced if he would have gone in and every time done this perfectly Studio based kind of thing or whatever. So there's something about, and that's what I think people like about podcasts. Like this is we're just talking, you know, like we have a little bit of a plan, but you know, we're just talking.

Yeah, totally. That's why I find the interview. So I kind of balance my podcast like a third, roughly. A third is solo, a third is talking to, you know, different sort of thought leaders or authors, and a third are practitioners. But the interviews are much easier for me because it's a conversation like this.

Right, right, right. Yeah, I don't do the solo thing, man. I, yeah, it's, it's you for that. Because I'm like, it actually requires a.

Lot more planning and then the skill is to do it be planful, but still be spontaneous. And so that's like a, that's an interesting balance as well. But what, you know, where I want, where what was important for me is in the up leveling of the podcast was really good audio and audio editing. So I have a podcast editor who's just top notch and, and he's so that like I wanted that quality in the same way when I published a book, I wanted it to be formatted nicely, did not have errors to, you know, be a good reading experience. So I want my podcast to be a good listening experience. Before I was just, you know, had, we were just talking on, you know, zoom, which isn't as good of a quality, which is totally fine. And so it just depends on your fit for purpose. Right. To go back to like what's your definition of quality? Yeah. So yeah, it's a learning journey, but I am so, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to, for me to sit still for too long. So published the book and then was doing that and then started the podcast two years ago. And so now my, my next thing is to really, I'm evolving this catalyst model and my intention is to put out a book. Nothing as big as Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn, but a much more practical book and guide. It's almost like a reflection process to help change leaders really step into these skills as well. So that's the project I'm working on right now. Probably something comes out in 2026, but if your listeners want to get a little preview of what that's all about, I have a download on my, my website. Kvjanderson. Yeah.com catalyst with a K. So, but yeah, so like I can't, I can't wait too long for not have for not doing something. But yeah, I'm not putting pressure on myself but 2026 is a good somewhere. So stay tuned, stay tuned.

So maybe to wrap things up, you know, you've been to Japan a number of times, different trips and I'm wondering in this, I'm when's the last time? How recently it's been.

I have done six cohorts since 2023, so I'm about to do my eighth cohort.

When's the last time you.

The last one was just May and I'm going in November. Yeah, so.

So yeah, I'm curious because it's been a while since I've been over there. Talk about like technology and AI and different things like that in Japan. Like what's going on? Is it different than what we're seeing here? Are they ahead? Are they the same? What are you sensing?

No, great question. I mean I feel so fortunate that I go back to Japan. So you know, you know, I live there for two years and then now lead these experiences and I get to go companies talk with their leaders. So I learned so much in all in all of that. So. And I'd love to have any of your listeners come join me in 2026. I have at least one spot or trip in May and probably one in November. But yes, so one thing I noticed following the pandemic, that was like a change in technology and I think this was not pandemic related, but it was that they were preparing for the Olympics, you know, and we know what that challenge that was given that you had to wait a year. But that when I lived in Japan, so pre, in the, you know, pre2020, it was still almost entirely cash based. So it was very rare you could use a credit card. And now like everything's tap pay. Like it's only when you go to the outskirts, you know, out of the big cities that were you really, really needing to use cash. So I found that that was a big change in technology. And so they've kind of like leapfrogged again. And of course they all, you know, there's so many robots and these types of cute things around that Japan's always had. But I know that technology is continuing to be a big issue for them and how they can stay ahead and continue to innovate. How are they getting ahead and not just relying on past successes which they were even on the decline as it relates to AI. That's one of my hot topics to come in this upcoming trip in November to really explore with business leaders because that's already even changed so much since I was there in May. I still don't see a lot of technology as it relates, you know. And if we go to Gemba at some of these companies, they're more and more I now I'm seeing some electronic whiteboards so they can have real time updates of data. But there's still a tremendous amount of you know, paper to track, you know, you know, daily, you know, daily production and problem solving which I actually think is great because they're you like leveraging around it so we're not behind it. So use the technology to pull through the real time data but then do the problem solving there still in paper. And you know, so I, they too are trying to figure out how, how to leverage and use all of these different, these different things. But Japan sort of was a very paper based and very currency like based society. So I think things are going to have to change. And I wonder if that's, these are actually questions that I want to explore like how that change. That's maybe changing more in the business world but you know, government and other things are still so like you have to go in and like physically use your stamp, your honko to sign things. And so the, the infrastructure has not kind of caught up to where technology is.

What is your, what are your thoughts on just like AI, like I, you know, you have children and like I wonder like, you know, it's easy to worry about everything because we always worry about our kids. Right. Like I worry like are they gonna not know how to think? Because all you gotta do is open up chat TPT and ask it anything. Right. Or whatever. Like what's your take on AI and sort of the future? Yeah, not even for us, but for our kids and the next generation.

Well, well, two answers for that. So I have the one for my kids. But I was, I was thinking about this and actually incorporated this part of my keynote talk at the Lean Institute Brazil just a few weeks ago where some things we need to be thinking about and one is how we're incorporating AI. And I kind of, I sort of made the analogy to or the link to Jidoka, the concept of automation with a human touch. And so even if you think back into the evolution of manufacturing where it started with like one person like very craftsmanship, one person doing one thing and it's using Toyota as example. Then Sakichi Toyota made the shuttlecock that was mistake proofed and so it was easier to then build machines and one person could oversee several machines and then that grows. And now in some areas, machines, like actual machines, are only doing the welding. They don't have any people there. So we've always had machines sort of taking over those repetitive tasks that we don't, that we don't need humans for. But I see it as, not as, like a replacement, but as an enhancement. How do we, in the same way we've always had to think about technology to improve our capabilities as humans. What are, how does it elevate us as humans? Like, what are we uniquely. What are we uniquely capable of doing? And so as that relates to AI and to sort of coming full circle here, Ron, you know, I don't think it's replacing how we think. We still have to be able to frame the questions right. For AI because if, like a bad question comes in with a bad output, so, you know, we still have to do that quality checking. I mean, I, I'm sure I, I've had some recent experiences, I'm sure everyone here has, where you like, ask AI to do something and it comes back and if you're not checking the resources, like, I asked it to analyze a survey of these change leaders. And I was like, wait, I didn't think so. And so responded to this and it said, oh, yeah, you're right. I thought that you might like to hear from this person that you had on your podcast, though. And I was like, wait, how can I know that you're actually. I said, you're. I asked you to analyze this one data set. And so, yeah, yeah, so it's, you know, we still have to have those quality checks. It can't just be unfettered. But our, our abilities as human beings is about how are you framing the question? How are you doing, like, nuanced analysis? How are you not just pulling from the past, but really looking into creating, like, new ideas? And then what AI certainly can't replace is that human connection. And we still have human beings in the workplace and we still have to connect as humans and manage as humans and manage human dynamics. And to me, that's why these social and influence human skills are even more important now than our technical skills, because we're going to be able to leverage AI more and more for, say, running, you know, running a report or how would you apply this technical, you know, concept in this, you know, within this, you know, process. So, yeah, the human, the human skills, framing, empathy, influence. So important.

Yeah. And an AI bot interviewing an AI bot on a podcast, that just sounds weird. So.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm sure it's out there. But. And they sound kind of human that. Yeah, they're. It's a little creepy. So. Yeah. How do I help my kids? I mean, it's certainly. We have to be careful in any way with, you know, how just making sure that they also have the understanding that it's. It's not to do it. It's not to do things for you or to be the full answer to everything. But what are their critical thinking skills around this and just being smart and how to use things.

Yeah. Awesome. It's always great to catch up with you, Katie. I can't. We'll. We'll see each other soon here at Amy. So.

Yeah, it's gonna be great.

This episode's not gonn a little bit. So Amy have probably come and gone by the time this week. But hey, it's always awesome to see you. Maybe any final words of wisdom or parting thoughts that you want to leave with everybody?

Yeah. So I'm looking forward to seeing you as well in person, but for all the listeners too. I just, I'd encourage you to take a look at yourself and when are you falling into maybe this doer trap out of your desire to be helpful or to move things along or to help someone. And the more that we can just sort of pause and think about that, like, is it your role to be the expert who has the answer in that moment, or is your role really to help someone else develop their expertise? That shift is really just so foundational, no matter what your role is to really creating capability in your teams and in your organizations as well. So it all starts with us and so we can grow a chain of learning together.

Nice. Nice. Awesome. All right, and what's the best way to connect with you?

Yeah, so you can go find me on LinkedIn, kbjanderson.com or Katie Anderson. Again, my website is kbjanderson.com and my podcast is Chain of Learning.

Yeah. And we're going to link everything up.

In the show notes.

Everybody scroll down and. And go connect with Katie and definitely add her podcast to the to your playlist.

Thanks, Rod. I'm happy to be here.

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