GA 607 | Improving Your Internal Operating System with Michelle Troseth and Tracy Christopherson

It doesn't mean there isn't opportunities to expand and to grow yourself in different ways beyond that. Right. We're all. I like to think we're like all a work of art. Right. Like a David. Right. Just chipping away and eventually the beautiful you comes out. Right.

Today, I am very excited to welcome Michelle Troceth and Dr. Tracy Christopherson. Now, boy, oh boy, this is a power packed episode. We had a lot of fun, a lot of energy in this one. So it's not your typical sort of talking about lean podcasts or anything like that. But. But the things that we talk about are definitely applicable to the work that we're doing in continuous improvement. Specifically, we really kind of dig into some signs that our internal operating systems could be sabotaging how. How we lead and how others that we work with, how they might lead. And we really just kind of get into the sort of like human behav. Why do we do the things that we do? And then what can we do if we're in a sort of a rut and we need to find our way out? And they're both experts, as you'll hear, on human development and just working with people. And I just had a lot of fun interviewing these two ladies, so I think you're going to enjoy this one. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com this is episode 6. 08. Again gembapodcast.com and look for episode 6. 08. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show.

Michelle and Tracy, welcome to the show. How are you?

I'm great.

We are fantastic. We're glad to be here, Ron.

Yeah, thanks.

So where are you calling in from? Are you guys together or.

No. Nope.

Go ahead.

I'm calling in from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Okay.

And I'm Tracy. I'm calling in from three hours north, a small town called Boyne City.

Okay. Also in Michigan.

Also in Michigan. Yep.

So I got to ask. Wolverines. Spartans.

You have Wolverines.

Go Blue.

Tigers.

I'm from Ohio, so.

You know, I have to tell you, I have a son that got his PhD at the Ohio State.

Yeah.

He was kind of a closet Wolverine fan.

Oh, yeah. I mean, the last many years we have nothing to say over here in Ohio State side. So, you know, whatever I see, even last year it's like. Yeah. Won a national championship. Great. Still lost in Michigan.

Yeah, I know.

So it's like, was it really a success? I don't think so.

Really?

I know. Isn't that so funny? Yeah.

Yeah. To Lose every game.

That's when we all love it, though. We all love it.

Oh, yeah. I actually have such great friends that are affiliated with the Michigan Rich Sheridan and a bunch of people up there in. In the Ann Arbor area. They're fantastic. So we just give each other a heck on, you know, Saturday a year, you know?

You bet.

All right. All right. Well, as you know, we like to get our shows kind of going with. With a quote. So do you have one?

We each have one.

Oh, wonderful. Okay, double.

Yeah, double quotes. Today I can start. So mine is, we cannot solve our problems with the same thing thinking that we created them with. And that's the Albert Einstein quote.

What's that mean to you?

Well, we're all about thinking outside the box. And a big part of our work is a whole different way of thinking, which is polarity, intelligence. So more about both and thinking than either or thinking.

All right, Michelle, what do you got?

Yeah, one of my favorite quotes is by Margaret Wheatley, who wrote the book Leadership in the New Science. And it's relationships are all there is. Everything in the universe. Universe only exists because it's in relationship to everything else. Nothing exists in isolation. We have to stop pretending we are individuals that can go it alone.

Yeah, that's pretty powerful. Yeah. Especially pertinent for the work that. That we all do here, right?

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Sometimes Tracy and I short. Shorten it to just relationships are all there is.

Yeah. Saw somebody like, one plus one equals three, you know? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, good stuff. Well, hey, before we jump into kind of the formal questions, tell us a little bit about yourselves and your backgrounds and then in the line of work that you're in.

Sure, I'll start. This is Michelle. So Tracy and I, we actually met this month, 40 years ago in hospital orientation. So our background is in healthcare. I'm a nurse and Tracy's a respiratory therapist. But we did work in healthcare transformation for over 20 years across North America, primarily helping leaders create healthy work cultures.

And then eventually we knew that there was something just dying to get out of us, to make our contributions to the world. So we left our corporate roles in 2017 and started our company, Missing Logic. Now let Traci take it from there.

Yeah. So in our work today, we work with leaders and organizations, and our work with leaders really is around creating a burnout proof life. We want them to bust through their old leadership norms so that they can live their best life and they can be burnout proof. And in organizations, we're still Helping organizations create healthy workplaces. But we do that with a methodology called Polarity Intelligence. So it's really about understanding problems that you can solve, intentions that you need to leverage.

So you mentioned burnout. I'm curious, what. How would you describe. I mean, it's a word that we all use, but can really mean a lot of different things to different people. Like, how would you characterize burnout?

Well, there's. Great question because it is used a lot, but it's really. And there is a World Health Organization definition, it is classified as an occupational health disorder. But really, it's just when you are so exhausted that you can hardly function anymore and you just don't. You just stop caring. And you and your ability to contribute, to think, to. To respond just diminishes and diminishes until you're. You don't even recognize yourself anymore.

Yeah, you're really disengaged.

Yes, very disengaged.

How long. How long do you think it takes for burnout to really settle in? Is that something you can come on quickly or just sort of linger and then slowly overtake you, or what are your thoughts?

Well, I think it builds over time, and I think the reason it's so dangerous is you don't see it happening to yourself.

Kind of like a frog in the water sort of thing.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Right? You keep pushing yourself and pushing yourself and pushing yourself and overextending yourself and thinking, okay, I'll get through this. This is just. This is just this time. Soon as this is over, this project's over, this program's implemented, things will get back to normal. But it doesn't. And you just keep going and you keep going. And then there's stressors in the organizations that you work in, right? Maybe even stressors in your personal life that you're just pushing under the surface. You're not giving them your full attention, and it just starts to build and build and build. And then sometimes it hits people like a ton of bricks. It just takes them down. And Michelle actually has a great burnout story.

I do. I actually had that happen to me. And it took me down for a long time. And I didn't realize it, but I was really operating in those days under the leadership norm that you have to work hard to be successful. And what I always share with people is, like all leaders, the more successful you are, the more people ask you to do. And we have a hard time taking things. Easy time adding things to the platter, hard times taking them off. And I was in a Hospital boardroom one day. And I had a lot on my plate for a long time. I kept pushing through, pushing through, when all of a sudden I had every symptom of a stroke and ended up hospitalized for five days. Now, the good news is I didn't have a stroke. I had a very rare hemiplegic migraine event. But it was very clear. It came on from. I was totally burnt out. And I didn't realize how burnt out I was because I was just pushing through and loved the work that I did.

And ignoring the signs.

And ignoring the signs.

Tracy's quick to.

You know, because that's a classic. That's the classic, right?

Yeah.

Somebody says, I'm worried about you, and you go, oh, I'm okay. I'm doing fine. Right. You feel exhausted, but you just think, oh, it's okay. I'll. I'll rest next to weekend. Right. So, yeah.

I have an interesting thing. I just thought about this. I have a friend of mine who.

Was recently just. I don't know, was. I just sense something was off and. And know them. I know them pretty well. And. And. And I say, hey, how's everything? Are you okay? And, you know, and all that sort of thing. And they mentioned was sort of the flip side, the almost the opposite of what you're describing. Like, they were very.

I say, like, uninspired with their work, bored, even. And it was just this malaise, and it would. This, like, really overtook them, like, in the workplace. But it was even sort of permeating, like just hanging out, you know, on a Saturday afternoon. Like, have you. What do you. What. What's your take on that? It's like the opposite of burnout. Like, it's like. I don't even know how to describe it. Just bored and uninspired. Like, what.

That can be symptoms of being burnt out as well. Right.

Because in a different way. Yeah.

Right. So the drivers can be like, Michelle excited, wanting to do, and then just doing, doing, doing too much and then burning out. But sometimes, too, it's that just that, like you said, like the frog in the water, right?

Yeah.

Steady. And then you just get to this point where you're like, I just don't care anymore. I just. I can't. I just can't even answer that question. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to be engaged. So that's how it can also show up. So I think it has a lot of different faces, just depending on who you are in the context of the situation.

Yeah.

But it really is just that exhaustion, that disengagement, pulling away from something that used to bring you joy. Yeah, Right. And. And just that feeling of like, I'm. I'm done. Like, this is just enough. Yeah.

So. All right. So something that I know that you're both passionate about is something called an internal operating system. I'm wondering if you could maybe unpack that. Like, what does that mean? An internal operating system?

Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that we've learned is we all have an internal operating system. Just like your computer has an operating system, your phone has an operating system. We do, too. And the way we describe it is it includes your identity, so it's kind of who you believe you are, the characteristics that you embody, and it also. In. And that's really the heart of it, the heart of your operating system. And then the other is your beliefs. And your beliefs, really. Beliefs are just thoughts we keep thinking over and over until we believe they're true. Right. They may not be true, but there's something that we believe. And oftentimes we're indoctrinated with these beliefs from the time we're kids, you know, in our churches, in our communities, in our homes, with our parents, right. They. They give us messages, repeated messages that we just take in and believe. And then we think that's just how things are. Right. And we. We pick these up as leaders through leadership norms, like, you got to work hard to be successful leaders. Sacrifice. That's it is. Right. That's why I get paid the big bucks, you know, those kinds of things. So those are kind of beliefs that. And they're always. Most of them are under the surface, and we're not even aware of them. And then our values, the things that matter most to us, and it's really kind of those three things together that really drive the operating system. And that operating system drives everything you do. Right. It drives your thoughts, it drives your emotions, it drives your behaviors, and then ultimately it drives the results that you get. And so our default operating system is based on our past, all the things we've learned and experiences we've had that maybe have informed who we have been, drives the default operating system. And if that's not aligned with the results that you want, you're not going to get the results that you want because you won't act outside of what you believe. Right. Or you won't act outside of your identity. So you're never going to take the actions to get the results you want if you don't align These other elements with those results that you want. So that's why it's kind of that. And it's internal, right. It's not always apparent to us unless we do some specific work to uncover it.

So what kind of work? Like, let's say someone's listening. It's like, oh, my gosh. Yes, yes, yes. Like, what do you do?

Yeah, well, it really starts with that awareness. So you have to start asking yourself some really quality questions, right? Like, what beliefs are driving the show right now? Like, what is it that I believe that's driving my interpretation of this situation? What is driving my behavior or my emotions right now? It's also thinking about, you know, if I had that result that I wanted, who would I be? How would I.

What.

What characteristics would I be embodying? You know, so just like some key questions like that. And even just, you know, thinking about that clarity of what is it that I really want and what's the thing that's really holding me back? What is that key thing? Is it a belief? Is it my identity? Are my values aligned with where I'm trying to go? So asking quality questions really begins that. And if you uncover that you have a limiting belief or something that's holding you back, it's then how can I reshape that? You know? So rather than I have to work hard to be successful, I'm successful when I work smart, right? So that's a way that you flip that around and you start to tell yourself that story, right? You start to repeat that to yourself every time it comes up. Oh, I got to work hard. Wait a minute. No, when I work smart, I'm more successful. So how can I work smarter? Right. It's about shifting that. That operating field that you're in. Got it.

Michelle, did you have anything that you wanted to add or.

No, I think the whole thing is just awareness. It starts with awareness, like Tracy said, and that. And just paying attention to what. What is triggering you, what is making you do the things that you do. So a lot of self reflection.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's a practice, I would say, right. It's a practice. Not just like you got to be consciously doing this. You know, it's a. It's a mindful choice to be. To be catching your thoughts, right? Catching what these beliefs are and the way that you're behaving.

So is it possible then something that I think you guys are passionate about is the whole idea of. Of leaders really just individuals, but. But for sure, leaders almost self sabotaging. Themselves. Like, is there a way that that that happens that their internal operating system is actually just doing more damage than. Than. Than good?

Oh, yeah, There's. There's signposts along the way. So. So one is that you just get stuck in a reactive mode and it becomes a default as well, and that you just. Leaders find themselves just always responding to the urgent, and they have great intentions. Like, you know, this week I'm going to be very strategic about what I'm going to be doing. And before they know it, they're caught up in their inbox. They're caught up in responding to everybody. And they don't take the time to even pause to, like, coach their team members because they're just so used to just jumping in and fixing. Fixing things. And so it's. It's like they're just in this reaction mode all the time, and they don't even realize that they're. They're doing it. I was with a leader this week, and we were having a meeting, and he was on the phone. He wasn't on the phone, but his phone kept going off and he kept feeling like he had to answer it. I'm like, why do you have to answer your phone? You're just automatically feeling like you have to answer your phone. You're in a meeting right now. It's called a boundary, and you can wait until we're done with our meeting. But I was so was just watching this unfold and I'm like, that's what I mean. Like, always got to be on, always responding. And so that's an internal thing. That's an internal response that almost. That has to be flipped and rewired, that, no, this can wait. So that's an example of one.

Yeah. Another one is when you start to feel stuck.

Right? Like, you know, you just. You kind of have moved on you inside, like, you out. You're outgrowing the role that you're in, and you're feeling kind of trapped and stuck, right? Like, you're just not as satisfied, you're not feeling as fulfilled, but you can't quite put your finger on it. And you just keep going through the motions, right? You keep staying in a role or in a position that is really not serving you in what you ultimately want to experience, but you kind of. But it's comfortable, right? It might not be a happy place, but you know what it is, and you keep yourself there sometimes and you tell yourself stories that there's no way to get out of this there. I don't have any other options. I did this to myself, right? Like, I. There was a time in my life where I was like, you know what? Like, I knew I wasn't satisfied where I was. I knew I had more to offer, but I felt like my background and my education kept me trapped in this certain area of work. Like, I didn't have enough experience, I didn't have the right credentials to step out into something else. And I kept telling myself that, well, there really isn't anything else that you can do. Just. Just keep doing what you're doing. Right. And then that just kept me there for probably two more years than I really wanted to be there, because I held myself back. So I sabotage my own advancement and growth by telling myself there isn't really any other option for you.

Yeah, that imposter syndrome is a very tricky thing, and I think we've all experienced it. Right. And life in one way or another. You know, just even being a parent, you know, it's like, oh, my gosh, you know.

Nobody'S ready for that job.

And we never take it on if we really knew what it was all about.

And it never ends.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Although I have to say, I, I. My oldest child, my oldest daughter is. She just made me a grandpa, so. Yeah. So it's a different kind of love, I tell you, man.

Oh, yeah.

So I know I don't look that old, you know, but. Yeah, but yeah, no, it's pretty, pretty, pretty amazing. Pretty amazing.

It is amazing.

Yeah.

That's the best job. Yeah.

I know for sure. To spoil them. And then, you know, he's just a little baby right now, so I can't really spoil too much.

None of the responsibility and all the fun.

Right, right, right, right, right. So, all right, well, so once a leader realizes that maybe this, Their whole mindset, their operating system, whatever you want to call it is, is holding them back, what do we do? Like, how do you go about sort of upgrading and making improvements? Or do we just stay stuck?

Oh, no, no.

We get them unstuck.

So, again, I think it is. It's really working through some very specific processes around the identity that you want to embody. Like, getting that clarity, what is it that I really want? And if I was that person and had that, how would I be? Like, what characteristics would I embody? You know? And then what you have to do is operate from that place. So if you are somebody that wants to be, you know, if being disciplined is. Is a important characteristic for you to achieve your result, then you want to operate as a disciplined person every day. So you have to set yourself up. Right. I am disciplined. Right. You have to keep reminding yourself that you're not operating from who you are today. You're operating from the person that has what you truly want. And, you know, a great way to think about this, and maybe this happened to you, Ron, but, you know, how many times did anybody ever tap you on the shoulder and see you as a leader before you saw it in yourself.

Or have you done that for somebody else?

Yeah, no. I can think about it early in my career, just as was. I was working at Motorola, was my very first job out of college, and. And they stuck me on the night shift and. But I remember.

Being in this role where I wasn't really. I wasn't in a leadership role, but it was interesting. I. I still vividly remember it. Like, there were certain things that I knew needed to be done, but I wasn't being asked to do it. But my. Sort of. My. My boss kind of, you know, gave this the autonomy to. To do it. And. And I remember just sort of doing it and. And then being acknowledged for that. And I remember how good it felt, you know, to have that sense of accomplishment, even though it was way above and beyond probably what I was supposed to be doing. And maybe I wouldn't think I was doing it for the Atta Boys or anything like that, but it was just in my. I wanted to do well. You know, it's like, I'm there. I want to do the best that I can, you know, and. I don't know, sort of like, carried on then, really, for the rest of my career, that just that mindset of trying to be. Do what needs to be done and maybe a little bit more, and. And it was a. More of an intrinsic motivation at that point, I feel like, than. Than even an extra carrot.

Yeah. Yeah. And so some of us, in some instances, do that naturally because that's a part of who we innately are. It's a part of our identity. It's a part of what we believe and what we value. And so. But. But not always is that the case. Right. When we're striving to move ourselves out of our comfort zone and to really strive for something that we, you know, that's beyond where we are today. We need to embody that. Right. But when somebody recognizes it in you, it's because you're just doing it already. It's like the person that gets tapped to be a leader, they're already leading. They already are embodying the Characteristics, whether they have the position or the role or the appointment or whatever it might be, at that time, they're already being that person and they're operating as that person. And then others recognize that.

What are your thoughts on. Have you heard of these so called love languages? You know, like, so like I am. I'm words of affirmation, right? Like tell me I did a good job. Oh, it makes me feel wonderful. My wife, I tell her she did a good job or whatever, could care less. She's acts of service. So pick up the messy living room floor or whatever, she lights up or I don't care, you know. So like how does that. What? Because we're all different, right? There's things that motivate us all differently. So how do you sort of work, take those types of situations of what, what? Even if you don't necessarily know what motivates someone because you've, you know, you're working with them or whatever. But, but should we be thinking about that? Thinking about the other person?

Yeah, yeah. That's actually one of the things we help leaders with is it's called personal alignment. But it really is. Start with knowing yourself first.

Yeah.

And so those things like what you're saying are so important. Knowing your strengths. What are your top strengths? Yeah, we do a lot of work with the Enneagram with the, like, you have to know yourself, but then also know your team, know your partner. My, you know, I can so relate to the love language because my husband, I don't have the same love language. And. But we have to be aware of each other's love languages.

Right.

So I think that's really important. Every person is unique. You have to know yourself, but you also have to know others.

Great, great point. And you want to do things that are in alignment with your unique, you know, characteristics, with your unique talents and skills, but you also don't want it to hold you back. You don't want to use it as an excuse. Yeah, well, wait, this is. I'm a three, you know, and threes do this, right. So I'm always like, okay, I get that. And I think it's really important. And you do you want to know yourself and understand why you respond the way you respond. You know, different things like that. And it doesn't mean there isn't opportunities to expand and to grow yourself in different ways beyond that. Right. We're all, I like to think we're like all a work of art. Right. Like a David. Right. Just chipping away. And eventually the beautiful you comes Out, Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love it. I mean, I'm wondering maybe to wrap things up, do you guys have any, I don't know, any stories or examples of folks that you've worked with who've sort of, I don't know, gone through some of this transformation and self realization and made some improvements?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll tell a story about one of. One of the individuals that we worked. I actually just talked to her yesterday too, but. So she would say she was a high achiever, like a doer, right? There isn't anything you wouldn't give this person that she wouldn't get done. Right. And she really believed you have to work hard to be successful. Right. And I cannot say no, you know, as a high achiever. No is not in my language. Right? Not one of my words. Now, the things that would trigger her would be kind of like, Michelle, like opportunities, right? Opportunities to do a research project or opportunities to lead a program or opportunities to, you know, participate in somebody's dissertation committee or something like that, right. So her behavior was. She said yes all the time.

Time.

And she worked literally all the time. I mean, this person only slept two to three hours a night, like barely slept. She was always working, right? Wow. Now her emotions, like, you know, because this is like a chain reaction, right? So the emotions that she was feeling, like she had fear, she was afraid she would let somebody down if she didn't do what they asked her to do. She didn't take on the work, she be letting somebody down. But at the same time, and she was doing all of this and barely sleeping, she felt underappreciated, undervalued. And. And the result was when we started to work with her, she was at the end of her rope. She was totally burned out. She was exhausted. She had neglected herself, her personal life, her self care, her family. I mean, she was in a different deep hole. Now after she, you know, really started to take a look at what are my beliefs, who do I want to be, what is it that I really want? Right. How do I want to make different choices? Then she started to see herself as a very accomplished and transformational leader. And she flipped her beliefs to I can choose what I say, yes and no to that. That's all within my power. And she also began to believe, like, I matter as much as my work matters. I matter. I'm important. I need to care for me. So what happened is she started to. Now she's sleeping six, seven hours a night. She started to go on vacations which she never took. She's been caring for herself, you know, with her. Her meals and her exercise and all the things. And she's closer, spending way more time with her family. And she, you know, she chose to stop settling for what she was being given, and she took ownership, like, she became the CEO of her life. And she said, this is not enough. This is not what I want to live. And she went out, she started searching for new opportunities. She got a new role in a whole new institution. She is internationally known now. I mean, her contributions are incredible. She's had multiple promotions, and she's living her best life, professionally and personally. So now she has this very balanced, dynamically balanced life where she's thriving in all aspects. And I just talked to her yesterday. She's like, I use everything you taught me every single day in my roles and working with other people. I'm even coaching my sister. She said, and how to have a better relationship and all these other things. Right? But it's just. It hit me. I can. It makes my heart just sing to see somebody own their life. You know, so much of the time, we give control of our lives to other people. From the moment we wake up. As soon as we open our phone or our computer, we're letting somebody else's priorities take over ours. And so much of that's under the surface. We don't even know we're doing it. We just do it.

When you see such a transformation like you did a. You just described, I'm like. I genuinely mean this. Like. Like, how. How do you. How does that make you guys feel?

Cry.

It brings tears of joy to. To me every time I think about this person. To have that kind of impact and to see them just. She just, you know, she owned it.

Well, you changed her life.

She changed her life.

She changed it. But you help.

Yeah, well, we gave her tools, right? And guidance and coaching. But when it comes down to it and everything we've talked about today, it's a choice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you are always choosing. Even if you're not making the choice, you're choosing, right? You are choosing. And so she chose. That was enough. I'm not staying here. Right? And then she did the work that she had to do, and it wasn't always easy and it wasn't always fun. A lot of. Lot of tears and a lot of challenges, right? But look at her today. I mean, she is amazing.

And. And her husband thanks us every time he sees us.

Oh, that's beautiful.

Beautiful. That's one of the best parts. When the husband says, you gotta do this. Don't. Don't you have a call tonight with those, with those women. He would be reminding her. Don't. Don't you. Are you going to that retreat with those girls? Like, don't miss that. Now. Is there anything I can do to make sure you.

Yeah, well, talk about love language. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Wonderful.

Wow.

This has been a great conversation. I. I really appreciate you both for covering some time out if folks wanted to connect with. And we'll put your LinkedIn profiles and all that in the show notes, but.

Okay.

Is there any other ways that folks can best connect with, with you?

Well, I would say we have a website, missinglogic.com that's probably the best way to get a hold of us.

Missinglogic.com y yeah. Okay.

And they can listen to us on our podcast as well. What's it called? Burnout Proof Leadership.

Nice. And it's just YouTube, like chatting or.

It's our. And we have guests as well.

Guests.

Okay, wonderful. Yeah, I'm. I'll check it out.

Yeah, yeah, do that.

You're all linked up. And everybody. Gemba Academy podcast. Go listen to this podcast as well.

Yeah, yeah.

They'll get a lot out of it. We'll share yours as well.

All right. Well, hey, I really appreciate you both coming on and this has been a lot of fun.

It has been. Thank you so much, Ron.

Thanks for the opportunity.

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