GA 620 | Is Your Lean Operating System Talking or Singing? with Royden Johnson

The operator would come in and you will ask the operator or the manager, how are things today? And they would say something like this, don't worry, sir, we will push for the numbers. Today. Said, stop, stop, stop, stop. So you have a car, correct? Yes. So did you push your car to work or did you drive your car to work? Because pushing requires effort and lean is effortless. You need to drive the process to deliver whatever KPI you want.

Today I'm excited to welcome my good friend Roydon Johnson back to the show. Now, if you rem of, oh, maybe a year or so ago, Roydon came on and sort of introduced the world to. To what he's got going on. So you'll, as you'll hear, Rudy lives in South Africa and so he's actually spends quite a bit of time talking about the state of affairs in South Africa, talking about how things are going over there and with the economy and how Lean plays a part in improving the situation. And then really the, I guess the topic of the day was, it's a really fun statement is, is your Lean operating system talking or singing? And so Royden has a really great way of sort of using his words to describe what he's feeling. You can hear his passion just in the way that he talks and communicates. And so he's got a lot of experience with Lean and he's seen it done well and he's also seen it not done well. And so what he does is he kind of walks us through his vision of what it looks like when an operating system is actually sing. That's really the goal. So a lot of good nuggets in this one. I think you're going to enjoy it. It's a little bit longer than normal, but stick with it and I think you're going to benefit from it. So show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com this is episode 620 again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 620. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. Welcome to the show. How are you?

I'm well. My Cypron. How are you doing?

I'm doing good. I'm doing good, yeah. It's good to connect with you again. It's been a while since we talked, so hope everything's been well.

Yes.

Where are you calling in from?

So I relocated back home, back to the Eastern Cape. Previously I worked in Cape Town, so I moved a bit closer to home, wanting to add value in the local community. So it's nice to be Home, we have our challenges. However, I'm just looking how I can add value and grow. Grow more lean leaders going forward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, you know you're from. From South Africa, right? Like born and raised kind of thing or.

Okay, born and raised in South Africa.

Nice, nice.

Although I've traveled a bit, but South African born and bred.

Got it, got it. All right, well, you know the drill. We like to begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote. So what do you got?

So my quote for the day is, when caring about those you lead comes naturally, leadership then becomes bearable, because empathy turns pressure into purpose.

That's good. Say it again.

When caring comes naturally to those you lead, leadership then becomes bearable, because empathy then turns pressure into purpose. I think. And that. That quote, it really hits home because I think it's probably the toughest time now to be a leader with a level of scrutiny. Yeah, I think social. Social media has added a different flavor to it where in the past, you. You had to earn your right to have an opinion. Now you just need data and you need a cell phone, and then you can comment and criticize her on all you want without having done anything. So. So being a leader nowadays, it's tough. It's not easy. But like I say, it becomes bearable when that caring element is internal. And because now it takes it, now you take whatever pressure you get. You turn that pressure into purpose. That pressure now fuels you because, you know, as a leader, you need to go into virgin territory for those that you are leading.

Yeah, good stuff. Good stuff. All right, well, hey, tell us. In case folks didn't hear the previous episode, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and how you got involved in all this continuous improvement stuff and what you're up to these days.

Yes, originally, like I said, born in South Africa, raised in South Africa. I actually started my career about 20 years ago as a normal shop floor operator in Goodyear. Goodyear really invested a lot in me around development, got me to see the world. And then I progressed through different. Different leadership roles and eventually the lean. The lean Six Sigma, actually, it became a love. And you were a tremendous part of that. Starting to. As a shop floor operator and then moving into a leadership role. I had to equip myself because I was a late starter with regards to formal education. So one time playing on the Internet, I came across the Gemba Academy. One piece flow. And from there, from there, like I say, the buck. The buck just went on and on and on, and then Like I say, got extensive experience. I'm a black master black belt with regards to lean Six Sigma and also operational excellence practitioner. And my purpose in life is just to grow more lean leaders. For me, I have a strong why in developing leaders because I know the level of discipline it brings to my life as a leader. So in a snapshot that's just my

career, do you remember this one piece flow simulation? Do you remember if it was the original one where I was sitting at my kitchen table, the fancier one where you redid it in the studio.

And now that was the fancier one. The fancier one. So yeah, I can, I can, I can vividly remember one night and I can easily talk about it now because it's years ago. So I can remember actually stopping, stopping production and getting all the shop floor operators into our office because we had a tendency of batch production and everyone thought that this is the best thing. And then we sat down and I opened the video and the guys were shocked. As I told you, the guys just no man, something is not right here. And everyone took out their cell phones and the calculators and it was a great exercise. And then most of them like ultimately became in love with some of your content. And just looking back, a number of my friends within, within the Goodyear fraternity actually ventured onto leadership. They went into leadership and managerial role. So like I say, most of us were late starters with regards to education because of the economic circumstances in South Africa. But content like that really developed us eventually. Most of us then went to universities to develop us further with the support of the local organizations. So it has been a nice lean journey and I'm forever grateful for the impact predominate. Like I say, I started as an operator about 25 years ago and the first video I watched around Lean Manufacturing was your video.

Yeah, that video is near and dear to my heart. Just. And I've. I've told this story on the podcast before, so sorry for repeating myself for regular listeners but. But I remember vividly like it was yesterday. Honestly, the very. This was obviously way before Gamba Academy. The first time I did that, that envelope stuffing simulation. I. I had a blog back then. Even before again, Gamba Academy didn't exist. It was called LSS Acade six Sigma Academy.

Com.

This was my personal blog and so I would just write articles about Lean or anything like that. I didn't really have any ambition as far as like becoming this big famous blogger or anything like that, but there was a few people out there in the world blogging on the lean side. And so I remember thinking about. I had done that simulation before, just, you know, at work and that sort of thing. I thought, well, it'd be kind of fun to just set up a video camera and just, just record it, you know. And, and so I sat at my kitchen table. I remember I had. My kids were very young at the time and had to, I had to do it really late at night, so they were asleep and quiet and all that. And so I set up these, these lights in my kitchen. I almost burned the whole place down, you know, because I didn't know what I was doing. And. And I had an old digital camera, I remember, and it had a, you know, video setting on it. And so I, I turned it on and I sat down and, and I did this envelope stuffing exercise, you know, where you stuff 10 envelopes of the batch production and then you do it. One piece flow and one piece flow is. And, and so anyhow, I, I somehow edited this video. I didn't at first video I ever edited. I didn't know what I was doing. And, and I got it uploaded to, I think it back then it wasn't even YouTube, it was Google Video. And I uploaded it to a Google video and I got it somehow put it on my blog and I'll never forget, like I posted it, you know, whatever, in the evening or something. And then the next day I woke up and I opened up my email and I had explosion of comments on this video, like hundreds of comments. And people were like accusing me of like playing camera tricks and doing some trick or anything else. No, no, no, no, no trick. I said, please get 10 pieces of paper and 10 envelopes in a stopwatch and do it yourself. And, and anyhow, I think like that video, honestly, without that video, none of this Gemba Academy would exist. Because it was at that moment that I realized, man, there's something powerful about this video thing. And so that honestly, is how the whole idea of Gemba Academy came to be, was that envelope stuffing video.

Just thinking about it, it makes me smile. Like I say, when we had everyone in the room, Ron, and especially, you know, we have a history in the country with a level of distrust. So. And this is why I love the quote of John Maxwell that purple people first believe in the leader before they leave in the believing, the vision. And you'll see a lot of countries where there was a lot of oppression. You still have the trust gap. So the guys were sitting there and they said, no, man, this white guy is fooling us. That's why you guys making magic? I said, guys, just calm down. Let's watch the video again. And the reason why I liked your content because 75% and I'm talking purely manufacturing because that's the space that I move in. 75% of all our middle managers in South Africa comes from the shop floor. So, so we have a strong drive. We have something in South Africa called recognition to prior learning rpl. So because of the economic circumstances, you might, you might add someone that was brilliant at school, but the economic circumstances forced them to go and work because there was no income at home. So now they were straight A students, but they have, they had to live in grade 9 or grade 10 or grade 11 or whatever the case might be. So now because of our history, we realized that not everyone had the same opportunity. So we have what we call RPL recognition to prior learning. So a lot of these, these people then move into a middle manager role. But sometimes the constraint is, is there was. There's no development. I always say to be an effective leader, there needs to be a balance between competence and confidence. And, and sometimes in South Africa we have someone that's very confident, very outspoken, very assertive because of our political background, but then that person moves into a space where competencies is needed. You need to understand oee. You need to understand certain problem solving tools. You need to understand how to do a basic five why. So that's why I say your content that was put out there afforded us the opportunity not to wait for the companies per se because of, like I say, because of the history. Obviously there are training budgets available, but you'll find out that 80% of the plant needs training and your budget won't, won't, won't allow for all of that. So now you have to hand pick who you need to develop. But platforms like your one gave us the opportunity without paying. You can just go into the Internet and see what Ron has put out there. So a lot of our careers was definitely touched like so far. Arguments come and watch this video and don't understand what is one piece Flow? Immediately when you start reading about one piece flow it, you all may automatically venture into the lean space with different acronyms, different explanations around lean per se.

Yeah, love it. All right, well, so today, I guess the theme today of the episode is really framing this question. Are your Lean operating systems talking or singing? And I think it's a very interesting question. And so I'm wondering if you tell us a little bit about it, like what's on your mind as it relates to talking and singing and lean and all these things.

Yeah. So there needs to be a rhythm around your operating system. And you'll see all over the world, many times people would venture into washing countries strategy deployment on a certain operating system, but it very rarely works because when it comes to operating system, there needs to be a level of rhythm. And each organization will go through the same journey, but at different stages. And each stage requires a different leadership style. So in implementing an operating system and to get that operating system to sing, there's the three phases that you need to go through is obviously stabilize, standardize and improve. But what you'll find out that it's not, it's not as clear cut as many people think. You need to understand the level of rhythm that needs to go into the operating system. And when you, when you actually look at, and you study neuroscience, you can actually, you can actually see that there's a difference when someone speaks and then when someone sings, just from a neurological perspective, you will have someone that's talking to you, but they stutter. Have you ever heard of anyone that singing but they stuttering? No. Exactly. Because there's a rhythm about it, Ron. And sometimes I would read a lot and you will see that certain, certain operating systems fails within certain organizations purely because you need to understand the rhythm behind it. And you need to understand different phases. If I might use a classic example. So now you don't feel well, you go to the doctor. So what will the doctor do? The doctor will check your breathing, the doctor will check your pulse. The doctor checks the rhythm of the body to diagnose what's wrong. Because we know blood pressure 120 over 80, we know the rhythm around diabetes between 4 and 7. So there's a rhythm and you need to understand that rhythm for operating system to be successful in any organization. And then apart from the operating system, you'll hear this. The buzzword out there now is accountability, which is good. Accountability is top down. But for operating system to be effective there needs to be ownership, which is bottom up. So many times you'll see leaders say this is going to be, this is going to be the way this is the North Star. This is where we are going. And everyone preach that, preaching the accountability side. But then it falls flat because the most important person at the end of the day is the shop floor operator. If you don't drive that ownership, 5s will fall flat. If you don't drive the ownership, OEE will fall flat if you don't drive the ownership. A lot of the tools that's out there will then fall flat. And then if we have time, I just want to take us through a bit, through the certain phases. Yeah, and then obviously what, what leadership then is required for that phases?

Yeah, for sure. Let's go.

Yeah. So, so obviously we call the first phase stabilize. So, so in many and many organizations you'll find out, especially being an industrial up like Utnik, you'll find out that there's no stability. So every operator, every manager and every senior leader is in firefighting mode. So what I would usually say, guys, I'm not interested in what we are achieving. If we achieve 10 today, can we achieve 10 tomorrow? Again, give me the level of stability. And this is where you will see before you do anything, get the level of stability in the organization so that you can, like I say, it improves repeatability and predictability. So if you have built two tires and that's the standard and it's one minute per tire now I know with 10 minutes you need to build 10 tires. So from a stability side, get the stability in the plan, but also in the stability phase, what's important for leaders, you need to go slow to go fast because leaders sets the pace. And in your stability phase in certain organization you're going to have to rely on what I call certain superstar operators because there's no standard in place, because there's no structure in place. You'll find out that within certain organizations that a lot of the intellectual capacity sits with the operators that have been there for 20 years and 30 years. There's no standard that that person can refer to because all the standards are in the head. And stability phase requires a lot of patience, but also a lot of people development and growing people capability. Hence I'm saying when an operator would walk up and say, sir, this is what we're going to do today, I said, please don't stretch yourself. This is the target. If we achieve that target, can we sustain and maintain that target for tomorrow? It's all about bringing stability in the organizations. And when you study lean, we always use this example. So a certain department would perform very well. And in the morning huddle meeting, you would ask the manager, so, so why did we perform so good? And then he can't answer because sometimes we don't know what, what good looks like. So when you were running good, can you, can you quantify in scientific, scientific terms how did you achieve what you achieved? So stability phase, it's all about getting an understanding and getting understanding of what good looks like. So when everything Is running optimum. Go out there, see if we can take pictures. See for argument sake on the machine what was the setting, See when it was running good, what were the variables that contributed to us running good? And usually in your stability phase and this is where, where a lot of leaders makes the mistake because in your stability phase you very much dependent on operational expertise, which is not what you want in lean. You want to be more loyal to the process than to the person. So this is where you heavily dependent on the guys that knows the operation. I can use classic examples coming from the tire industry and this will probably shock you. So coming from the tire industry where operators that worked for Goodyear for over 40 years, that guy would just take, take certain rubbers and feel it and will tell you what, what rubber it is, what variant it is. No standard, no nothing. Just touching it because of the operational expertise. And you'll find out especially in the manufacturing space in Utnik, a lot of our operators have been working longer than 40, 50 years. So that's the first stage. Like I say, unfortunately you rely on some what I call superstars in the process. But that is not sustainable. But in that time you need it nuggets from a leaders site. You need to have patience and you need to be able to grow people capability. Don't assume I always say create a shop flow of problem solvers. So sit down and make sure that everyone within the organization is able to do a 5. Why everyone within the organization is able to do a Ishikawa diagram. Get that level of problem solving. Because usually in the stability phase your organization is condensed because each and every one is operating at the level below.

What do you think about? When we think about stability, the first thing that comes to my mind is the famous, you know, Ono quote. Without standards there can be no Kaizen, right? There can be no improvement. It's like what role does standards play then? Or maybe you're going to get to that. I don't know.

Yes, I'm going to get to it. You don't even. You don't even think about standards in the stability phase because there is nothing. That's why I say a different leadership style, a bit more patience. Also knowing that you need to rely on your so called superstars. Unfortunately you have to do that. But you know where you are going.

Okay? And like I say, after that then

stability phase, then it condenses the organization. That's why you need to be careful and make sure that you get out of it as fast as possible. Because like a couple of A couple of months ago, I wrote an article. A giraffe and a turtle don't eat at the same level. Both are important. The turtle can see what the giraffes is, and the giraffe can't see what the turtle sees. So sometimes in the organization, I say the operator would protect the hour, your line manager would protect the day, your, your group leader would then protect the week, your department manager would protect the month, your plant manager would protect the year, your director would protect the next five years. So everyone needs to eat at their level. But it's difficult in the stability phase because there's a lot of lot going on. And you'll see the normal split is 60% is firefighting. Whereas in your stable organizations, you've got 20% firefighting, you got 20% routine standard work, and you've got 60% continuous improvement. So your stable plant is already preparing for what's coming. So out of the stability phase, to your point. And I knew, I kind of knew that was coming because we know standards drive everything. If you can't measure it, how can you improve it? So, so, so the second phase is what we call the standardization phase. So this is the phase that you've learned out of the stability. You've taken most of the standards out of the heads of the operator, where certain operators had certain expertise, certain managers had certain expertise because they've been in the organization for 30 years. You take that now and you create a standard. Sometimes what a leader there needs to watch out, especially if he's leading managers and certain team leaders is a lot of your guys that relied on the dopamine and the stability phase now fall out, because now there's a standard now, and the standard is more dependent on the process, not the individual. And in this phase, in this phase, a different leadership style when it comes to discipline, it's where we. The standard is not up for discussion. The standard can either. You adhere to the standard, you object. If you can improve, understand it, we improve the standard, and then that becomes the standard. So this is usually the phase, and this is usually the phase where teams in the development of teams, where they go into that storming phase of team development, because now I can't be loyal to Ron anymore. So if I walk past any deviation of standard, I need to address it, regardless of how crucial and how uncomfortable the conversation would be. And in the standardization phase, this is where you go crazy around making sure. And I'm a prolific reader, as you know, so I'm very much been reading some of the Material of Patrick Lencioni. And this is where you over communicate clarity. This is where you don't assume. And this is where, and you've rightly alluded to some of the forefathers around lean. Clarity is power, so don't assume. And if you need to document something, make sure that when you document it that it's easy, understandable that even the lowest level of employee in the organization can understand what you are writing. Very, very, very, very critical in this phase, a more brutal approach. Because sometimes in organizations change is difficult. Especially if your stability guys had a comfort zone where they were the know it alls and they understood certain things. But now, because remember that gave you, that gave them a dopamine rush. So now I'm moving into a phase whereby even if I'm not here, the operating system should flow by itself. And it's, and probably this is a phase where, where organizations get rid of certain leaders, where they understand that, okay, this guy, he doesn't understand that we in standardization now, we cannot operate in chaos mode anymore. And in this phase, I call it, you use univocal language. I like to use classic examples coming from the shop floor. So operator would come in and you will ask the operator or the manager, how are things today? And they would say something like this, don't worry sir, we will push for the numbers today said stop, stop, stop, stop. So you have a car, correct? Yes. So did you push your car to work or did you drive your car to work? Because pushing requires effort and lean is effortless. You need to drive the process to deliver whatever cape you want. So this is where there's a, there's also interesting book Factory Physics that was written a couple of years ago. Yeah, I think more than 10 years ago. So this is where you, you become univocal in your language and how you communicate. And this is where you, you live out the operating system. The operating system is ingrained in your day to day operations whereby you speak the operating system, you'll talk the operating system, you love the operating system. And usually organizations that can move fast through the standardization phase will ultimately get to where they want to be, which is the continuous improvement phase. Okay. And you'll see a lot of organizations, they get it wrong that they're talking continuous improvement, but they cannot even hit the same target every day. But their language is around continuous improvement. You'll get organizations that, they've got black belts, green belts, but, but the basics is not understood around stability. So first show me that you can eat 10 every day. First show me that you can do 5 every day. First show me you can get that level of stability so that we know, okay, right now we have a level of stability because we understand what good looks like. We understand what do we need to do today to achieve the very same result tomorrow. How do you control the variables? And then you move into the standardization phase, whereby wherever you go, you can actually see that the standards in place. And then most important, shop floor documents. And you'll be surprised when like I visited a number of plants and I've consulted in certain plants, and then actually when you walk the plant, you'll see that there's no standardized work at the, at the operating station. You'll see there's no standardized work combination table at the operating station. You'll find out that there's no cycle time diagram at the operating station that's critical for shop floor governance. I don't care whether you're baking cakes, whether you're making cars, whether you're making tires. That is what we use for shop floor governance to manage performance at a shop floor level. Then you go into the continuous improvement phase.

Right, right. And which is never ending.

This, this is. Yes. And it's probably the most difficult.

Yeah.

Phase. Because it's ever evolving. And, and coming from a leadership site, I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Watkins star model. The S stands for your startup turn around, accelerated and redesigned. So, and sometimes in organizations there's, there's, there's different leaders needed for different stages. Obviously in your, in your stability phase, you need a leader that's strong on turnaround, a turnaround guy. So this is the guy that walks in. He actually loves chaos. He loves chaos because he knows that I need to bring structure here. He's the guy that's willing to challenge the status quo. He's the guy that challenges and he doesn't accept anything. And usually it's dependent also on your leadership style. So this is the guy that thrives on challenging you. And I've worked with quite a number of experts and especially, especially from German and French descendancy, very strict attitude where we say, guys, this is what we need to do. No excuses, because what you, what you will find out and I will always highlight it. Like in certain cultures, mediocrity is a standard, but this is the stage whereby when a guy comes to you, and with all your respect, when a guy comes to you and he brags about, we achieved 85% OE for today. And then you can just say, is it only for today? Over tomorrow as well. So this is where you create an environment, a competitive, challenging environment.

Wow. Yeah. So I think you've said a lot. I'm wondering if you were to sort of, I don't know, sum up in a few sentences like what you just said. Like if you were just trying, you're on an elevator, right, with someone and you want to kind of distill the main message of your, of your operating system, what would it be?

So obviously first of all, what I would say operating system need to be lived out. For your operating system to work, you need to understand in what phase you, you are so that you can align the leadership to the different phase. Because if you have the wrong leader, you're going to have the wrong outcome. And ultimately it needs to be ingrained in your day to day work and it needs to be part of your culture. And I always say that culture is the collective personality within the organization and in that operating system. Yeah. So when you talk culture, I want to hear, I want to hear your operating system in your language.

Yeah, exactly.

And like I say, when we reach there, then your operating system starts to sing. You can feel a rhythm about it. You can feel. You can. And like I say, growing up in Mutiny and growing up around machinery, we would always choke. Like you can hear the humming of the machines. It shows you that there's a level of rhythm.

Yeah. You can also hear when something's wrong. Right?

Correct. You can, you can hear when things are out of sync. And like I say, many people underestimate the level of leadership that you need in different phases. I've seen organizations having the wrong leader in the wrong phase. So like I say, it's horses for courses and there's some great operating systems out there. And like I say, I like to study organizations to see what operating system they are using and the effectiveness. You'll see that there's a slight change. So when you come with your cascading of your KPIs. So in the past we would have safety, quality, delivery, reliability, cost, and people. So now there's a slight change. You will see a lot of operating systems now have evolved. The first pillar would be safety and then people, then quality. Because what we've picked up now that the only two pillars that changes culture is safety and people. So if there's a respect for safety within the organization and you can see that there's growing of people capability, then I know that the quality pillar will be respected. Because if you respect safety, you respect the people, they will then respect the process and the system, which comes from quality. And once that system is then respected, the system is then designed to give you performance, which is delivery. So you don't come in and you push. You do it effortlessly. And this is where like, I've even challenged some senior leaders now, because a lot of times in organizations you would hear they say safety is a priority. I would always use this example. So, Ron, you are late for work. You have got two options, but you can only make one decision. You can either get dressed or you can have breakfast. Which one are you going to choose?

I can either get dressed or have breakfast. Those are my two choices.

Yes.

Running late? Yes, yes, I suppose I will get dressed.

Look how easily you answered that. But why did you answer? Why not have breakfast and go naked? Well, so you need to understand your. What you, what you did. Now, you filter that decision through two filters, a priority filter and a value filter. The reason why you say I'm going to get dressed because getting dressed is something to do with your values. Getting dressed is something to do with who Ron are internally. Getting dressed is something to what Ron needs to protect before he goes outside. Having breakfast then becomes a priority because I can grab an apple on my way to work. Because remember, priorities change. So the moment the organization tells me that safety is a priority, I go. Because now I might think on that particular day when the customer needs ABC&D and we have to bypass standards for fear of not stopping the customer, we will, because it's a priority and priorities change. But safety is of value and that's why that decision came easily. You didn't have to think about it because you've been trained. Okay, this one filter through value system, priority system. As easy as that.

Yeah. Oh, good stuff, Rodin. This has been a lot of fun, man. You, you have a lot, lot to say and I bet we could talk for 10 hours and, and not miss a beat.

Yeah. No, yeah.

I'm wondering though, maybe to wrap things up, if there's any sort of final words of wisdom or anything that you want to leave with the people and then definitely, why don't you tell everybody how best connect with you if, if they'd like to.

First of all, I want to say Toronto, I want to say thank you again. I've always been, through the years, I've been a bit frustrated because I always felt that as every, as Africans, we never got the platform to share because we also have got a wealth of experience like you look at the multinational organizations has been around in our country for over 100 years and you are one of the few that created the platform for all voices to be heard. So first of all, thank you, thank you for that opportunity and we don't take it lightly.

You're welcome.

And like I say, as a lean leader, go out there and I know it's probably the most difficult time because this is probably the most opinionated generation that I've ever seen and sometimes you will become despondent. But if your why is greater than the noise, go out there and let's create value and grow capability. I always say my three rules, my three principles and that I live by. Number one, respect for people. Number two, always improve processes, but at the same time grow people capability. And number three, you have to deliver on results and you cannot get it out of circumstances sequence. And a lot of times when the pressure is on, we want to go for number three. But remember, the cornerstone of everything is respect for people, respect for the operator. And then if people want to, want to reach out, obviously you can see I'm very much involved in social media. I'm a lot on LinkedIn, writing some articles and you can just touch base with me through LinkedIn. And like I say, there are some, there are some other platforms that are also on, but obviously my favorite one will always be coming back to the guy that started, that started this journey. So thanks again, Ron.

Oh, well, you're welcome. Thanks for coming on. Right, and we'll, we'll have everything linked up in the show notes, so everybody please go connect with, with right in and tell them thank you for coming on. So.

All right, thank you. Thank you, Ron.

All right, you take care. All right.

Okay you two, thank you.

All right, cheers. Bye. Thanks for listening. Whether you've been on the continuous improvement journey for many years or perhaps you're just getting started, Gemba Academy is here to support you. And while we're best known for our more than 1500 lean and 6 Sigma teaching and virtual tour videos, we also have a team of experienced Lean and Six Sigma practitioners available for one on one one coaching, as well as a variety of Lean and Six Sigma certification options. To learn more and to schedule a demo, head on over to gembaacademy.

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