GA 624 | The Pause, Consider, Act Framework with Ashley Herd

thought about having this business to help managers have difficult conversations. And her question was, why wouldn't you do that now? And there's a lot of reasons behind that. And those are the reasons that had kept me from starting anything for, for years. But whether it's something from a work standpoint or things in life, it really comes down to the choices that we make during the day that can build up to really create what our life is.

Today I am excited to welcome Ashley Hurd to the show. Now, Ashley has a really interesting background. So as you'll hear, she's a— she was like a lawyer and an HR professional and all different types of fields. But she's on her own now doing some management consulting type work, and she's written a book called The Manager Method. And so today we kind of dive into one of the core concepts that she's written about, which she calls the Pause, Consider, Act framework. Now, for those of us in the continuous improvement world, you might think that sounds very similar to PDCA, Plan, Do, Check, Act. And it is, but it's got a really cool spin to it. And I think you're going to enjoy this one. So, we kind of walk through that framework and some examples of how that might work in the real world, if you will. And then, we get into really just some sort of like career discussion, which is really interesting. She has something that she calls a career quilt. And so, we sort of talk about that. And then, towards the end, we wrap things up by kind of getting into the whole idea of micromanaging. And what we as leaders and managers can be doing and not doing, if you will, to not micromanage. So again, lots of things covered. It was a wide-ranging conversation and I enjoyed it and I think you will too. Show notes can be found over at gembaapodcast.com. This is episode 624. Again, gembaapodcast.com, look for episode 624. Okay, enough from me, let's get to the show. Ashley, welcome to the show, how are you?

Great, how about yourself, Ron?

I'm doing well. Doing well. All right. Where are you calling in from?

I'm from Atlanta, Georgia. What about yourself? Wait, where are you based?

So we're in the DFW, a town called Keller, just right outside of Fort Worth, basically.

Yeah.

Yeah. So when actually we're recording this, it's not going to be released until March or something, but we're recording this in sort of towards the end of January. And we've got a big ice storm rolling into the DFW area this weekend. So that's always interesting because we don't do snow and ice well here in Texas.

So, well, we are— you are at an— I don't know if it's good or bad company here in Atlanta, but, uh, we still talk about Snowmageddon of January 2014 here, and we are preparing likewise.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, well, you guys are at least more prepared, maybe. I don't know.

You know what, I'll just say thank you. I'll just say thank you and we'll leave it at that.

Yeah, it's all good. My wife's getting all stocked up and The kids are already— so I got a little generator. I was like, I hope it starts. I need to go home and start that.

I don't know if your kids are— my kids are like mine. My kids are 11 and 14, and they, they have, you know, they have one idea of like a snow day, which we don't have that many in Atlanta, which is why they probably think of it that way. But I've really tried to break it to them again, an ice storm, there's really nothing fun about it. I try to think about something fun. It really isn't because also, like, you know, we may lose power, all the things. So exactly. Exactly.

So good stuff. All right. Well, hey, tell us a little bit about yourself, Ashley. Tell us about your background and how you got into the line of work that you're in.

So I'm from Louisville, Kentucky originally. Those that are from Louisville will hear my code word of Louisville. But I had worked in B2B corporate sales before going to law school and then going into HR. So I have this what I call a career quilt of having experience of knowing what it's like to work in a sales environment and how many Sales professionals are promoted to manager and may not have had a conversation about what it's like to be a manager or any training, but also from that legal and HR perspective, a lot of times I felt like a situational janitor with what I was doing, like whether I was a law firm lawyer or even in-house working directly for companies. I worked for some really well-known companies like Yum Brands, McKinsey, did some work I really enjoyed, but what I liked more was actually taking that HR hat. Which to me is much more than, you know, just the department that brings bad news or denies paid time off or resets passwords, but really to help people have tips on what to do to work better. And so I started Manager Method as a business to help organizations actually provide training on how to work with practical tips and lead internal cohorts. But now I've written The Manager Method, the book that's now out with tips for managers on what to actually do to, I say, drive performance without driving people out the door.

Fantastic. All right. Well, I got out of order talking about the weather and everything. I messed up. So as you know, we do like to begin all of our episodes. So we'll sort of go out of order here, but with a favorite quote. So what do you got?

I have a quote I like from Annie Dillard, which is, "How we spend our days is how we spend our lives." And what I like about that is just that idea of A lot of us, like, I actually, before I started my business, I always had these ideas. Oh, one day I'll start my business. One day, one day. And it was a conversation I'd had with someone when I got the biggest job of my career. I'd been promoted from a lawyer at McKinsey to head North American HR for McKinsey. And I was getting settled in my role. And I had a team member that asked, you know, what would you like to do one day if you weren't working here? We had this conversation. I said, well, one day I bought this domain a couple years ago. I thought about having this business to have help managers have difficult conversations. And her question was, why wouldn't you do that now? And there's a lot of reasons behind that. And those are the reasons that had kept me from starting anything for, for years. But, but whether it's something from a work standpoint or things in life, it really comes down to the choices that we make during the day that can build up to really create what our life is.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I feel like I can resonate with what you're saying. Like when I, Prior to starting GetMyAcademy, I mean, I had corporate jobs and all the rest of it, but I always, always described myself as an entrepreneur trapped in corporate America, you know, kind of thing. And my poor wife, God bless her, you know, like I tried lots of different things and, you know, we were going to have a gumball business empire one time. So I bought all these gumball machines and just everything, you know. But finally we kind of got into GetMyAcademy and I guess that stuck, you know, it's probably more aligned with, with my real strengths than gumballs.

But wait, well, where, where are all the gumball machines now? What did you do with them?

I actually sold them all eventually, I think. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I'm sure it's a great business and you can make it, you know, do really well with it. But yeah, it probably just wasn't, wasn't with my, my core strengths maybe, you know, but I love it.

But, but, but it's this aspect of trying things and that's something I mean, I think one of the things that gets in the way of people creating a life is that people just don't try. You think this is going to be a failure. And you'd probably say there's lessons you learned from buying and selling a bunch of gumball machines that was better than just never having done it at all.

Well, you know, you're right, because I mean, you know, for me, my wife stays home. And so when I was working, you know, we had children and all the rest of it. And I was like, well, I, I wasn't going to just quit my job and not have any income. So I was doing stuff on the side. And, you know, eventually Gamba Academy was making enough money, it was like, okay, I think I can quit my job. And that was a big deal, you know. And, uh, but it takes a—

yeah, it's a—

I don't know. I mean, I don't know, the sort of the entrepreneurial mind is— maybe it's wired a little bit different. I don't know, because not everybody's cut out for it. And, and, um, and it's, you know, we need a lot of people working in companies and whatnot, you know. And, and that's, that's fantastic as well. So, um, yeah, it's just interesting how people are just, I don't know, wired different. Differently, maybe, you know?

Yeah, I know. I really think so. And I, you know, I would not consider myself a natural entrepreneur. I went to law school. That's about the most risk-averse thing that you can do aside from taking on a lot of debt. But same as I had this idea. And so one thing, and maybe this will play into our topic, but is so many people, if you say like, I'm leaving corporate, you ask them, why are you leaving? And again, sometimes people are like, I just want to. But you say, okay, really specifically, people may say, okay, well, I want to be able to I wanna be able to actually get feedback. I don't know where I stand with my manager. So I, at least if it's customers, like, you know, clients, I want them to give me feedback. There's so many reasons that people leave to start their own business that I actually truly believe managers can create all of those in their own teams. I mean, as you know, and as I know, and my husband left his corporate job leading customer success of a large tech company last year to, helped me, helped me at Manager Method, and now he's leading our customer strategy. I mean, I— it's a, it's a lot of feelings to start that. I love it. I love what I'm doing. I wouldn't change it. But I think a lot of people would not love it like they think. And so I think managers can create a lot of those environments on their own team.

For sure. For sure. For sure.

All right.

Well, let's jump into, into this framework. Let's just open it up with it. So you call it Pause, Consider, ACT. So what is it? Tell us a little bit about it and how you came up with it and what problems you're trying to solve with it.

Poskins Interact is the framework that I have in my new book about what managers can do in any situation that you encounter as a people leader. Because one of the things I see is whether you're newly promoted into management or whether you've been leading people for years, the vast majority of leaders I speak with really still struggle with what to do in given situations and are always trying to figure that out. And so having just a few words can be helpful to go to, to really think, OK, this is what I'll do in a situation. So pause, consider, act. 3 steps. The first is to pause. And this is the one where, again, I don't have a favorite among my 3 children of my framework, I'd say, but it is the one that I see people not doing. And while it seems basic, is so often, especially when you're in leadership, you feel like you have to have all the answers. My team has a question. I need to tell them. I need to be decisive. And you may see that, like, your organization may have in every job description, fast-paced environment. You may feel like you can't even send an email without someone responding to you. Everything feels like a race to respond first. But when speed is prioritized above everything else, it can really sacrifice things well after. I think most of us can think of times where we wish, oh, I wish I just thought about what I was doing before I did that, or that somebody else did. And so it doesn't have to mean, it doesn't mean stop. It does not mean stop. You still are gonna do things. We are gonna get to the act phase as the epilogue, but is to pause, whether that's a second. And so when you pause is to consider, because often in situations we're bringing, okay, this is what we need to do. Oh, this is my favorite team member. So yeah, they made a mistake, but I'm not gonna say anything 'cause that's totally unlike them. Or this is my least favorite team member, so we're gonna get them out the door. But just for a second, consider what you'd want to have happen if you were in their shoes. And it doesn't matter, it doesn't mean that you don't have consideration or you're not human, but it can really help to give that perspective of, OK, if this were me, if I were a new team member and I'm starting a job, how would I want to be greeted? Performance issues, every aspect of things that happen, what would I want to have happen? It can really help to frame frame it differently in a way that is more productive because we often wish we had more grace than we may instinctively give ourselves. And then the third is to act because sometimes you may say to your team member, OK, you know what? I'll get back to you on that. And you may mean to in that moment. But often what happens is nothing. And so your team member thinks, OK, well, this is a terrible idea. My managers, they think I'm an idiot. They're talking to everybody about me and how dumb I am. I mean, they're filling silence with the Worst case scenario. When you, as a manager, you often just forget. You mean, you know, you didn't track, you literally forgot about it, or you think, oh, it's been so long, I can't follow up now. And so doing that or having the conversation that you've been putting off, if you do have critical feedback, how do you actually explain that to them in a way that you'd want to have it, the way that you're asking questions? And so it really is this framework, and I go through it, of all the ways that managers can really bring it to life effectively.

So you mentioned that the pause might be air quote, sort of like your favorite aspect of it. Why do you think it's hard? Because for me, I would say with those 3 steps, pause for sure would be the most difficult. Right. Why do you think that is? What is it about us that makes it hard to slow down and take a breath?

Some of it, I think, is a bit of, I don't know if it's the imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon type concept, but brought to life. But is this idea of two things. One is we do feel like we need to get things done. I mean, if you were to tell a lot of people, take a break, they're like, I can't. I have a to-do list that could fill a week in one day. And so I just need to get through things. I don't have time to pause. But also we have these reactions and as human beings, and this is whether I think we're at work or while the book is about management, I mean, as a parent, I don't know that I pause nearly enough as I wish I did when I'm having conversations with my kids. And I think a lot of this is you just have these reactions and you go with your gut and you go with your gut and you're not thinking beyond that immediate reaction. You're not thinking about how's this going to end up? OK, if I'm frustrated and I take it out on my team member, OK, well, I'll apologize afterwards. OK, that's important. But ultimately doing these things, you may create harm in the relationship or drive somebody good out the door. And so I really do think it's— we have a lot going on. And as humans, you know, I do a lot of my business I built by doing social media and short-form content, meaning things like TikTok and creating those. And I both have loved having those platforms. I love learning from other people on them, recipes and otherwise and general life things. I do think this instantaneous reaction and constant attention has made it even more where we feel like we just get through things and we're not taking that pause.

Yeah, no, for sure. For sure. I don't know if you're familiar with it or not. Within our continuous improvement world, there's a framework that Dr. Deming came up with called PDCA, Plan, Do, Check, Act. Have you ever heard of that?

No, but okay.

Yeah, so it sounds very similar in a way, but your pause within this PDCA framework. So we plan, you know, and there is some really deliberate, you know, for sure pausing if you need to or whatever it might be. And then we do and then we check what we did and then we adjust or react, you know, sort of thing. So it sounded like actually really similar to what you're talking about. So I thought it was pretty cool. So, all right. So the next question I have is I know there's something that you talk about. It's a a career quilt. So I'm wondering if you could, what is that first of all? And then, and how do we do it?

Well, it's a bit of a euphemism, but not just a euphemism. I do think it's a genuinely important way to describe something that may otherwise come off at like, okay, we're now well past the holidays. Let's say Thanksgiving. And you say, I've had this corporate career. We're going to start this bubblegum business. You know, I want to create freedom for my family. I've had this idea. And you have some relative that says, Ron, What are you doing? Like, what, you know, what are you doing with your life? How does this look? Are you those people that have applied for a job? Someone's going through your resume and they're like, you know, tell me the picture because it doesn't, you know, it's not clear here. I actually think it's the flip of it. I think it's really important that people have different experiences and have tried things. So my career quilt, again, having done cold-called CFOs and then traveled around and met with the heads of HR in the sales context, I've seen in courtrooms. I've seen things go really wrong. I've also seen in-house as HR and legal how it can feel to a salesperson when you are totally outside their function and you email them and say, wow, that was an amazing deal. Congrats on what you did. And so I've had these experiences that include things like starting out, I worked at Subway. I was a sandwich artist. I worked at Kmart as an electronics associate. I mean, all of those are very real squares. That made me realize how the role that work plays in our lives and that so many people are just winging it. But when you have a manager that, that can communicate work expectations, they respect who you are as a person, they want to know about you as much as you want to share, not in and outside of work, you do these things, you can have such an impact on work no matter what the environment is. And so those are the things that my career quilt led me to be. And I think all of us, as we look, sometimes you look at it and think, OK, well, that didn't last long. But instead, if you think of it like, that was a square, and these are the things I learned from it. This is what I love doing. This is what I don't love doing. This is what I'm good at. All of us have that. And so I think as you think about that, and as a manager, understanding your team members have that as well. And the more you can learn about their squares, you can see things that can really impact, even if it seems totally unrelated, the work that they'll do today and then some.

Yeah. So, I know you have kids. I do as well. And I'm curious, like, when you're— I don't know, you're sort of giving advice to maybe younger people or, you know, maybe college age or something like that. Like, what do you tell people? Like, what advice do you give to those sort of just about to enter into this whole world of work? Like, what do you say?

I really like to use a version of ikigai, which is this Japanese concept. I don't know if you're familiar, but it's 4 questions. And the way I really try to summarize it is, what do you like doing? What are you good at? What do people need? And what will people pay for? In some of that, I actually think that's something for people that are, okay, how would I have that conversation with someone going to college in a way that's not gonna get them to shut their eyes or roll their eyes and say like, come on, mom, come on, dad. But really have the conversation, like putting that in a ChatGPT prompt, that's actually probably something I will do sooner rather than later because my daughter is a freshman in high school and we're kind of starting to have those general conversations to think about things to the extent that she'll allow me to speak about that. But I think because it is this aspect of, I think, of those questions, I really for a long time bent on this aspect of what will people pay for, maybe what's expected. In my heart, when I was growing up, I wanted to be a playwright. Desperately. I loved it. I, in high school, there was a youth performing arts school as part of my high school, is this magnet school in Louisville, Kentucky. In my senior year, I got into the playwriting program and I had some plays put on at the Kentucky Center for the Arts. I mean, I still can think back to, I mean, I felt like the most alive version of myself. But what did I do? I mean, I went to college, I international studies and Spanish major, all important things, but I I cold-called CFOs or I, you know, I had a more corporate career and I'm glad I personally have that experience. But part of the reason I'm doing now what I do isn't necessarily that I was in, had this entrepreneur bent as much as I love writing scripts for people or helping them think of how to have conversations and giving ideas of what can happen, helping people to find their own voice. And so as I give that advice to people is, is this blend of, you know, What do you like doing? What do you— but also what will, what will people actually pay for? And trying to find a blend. It took me a few decades to figure that out, that out myself, and I'm still figuring it out. But, but I do think, you know, if you just tell people follow your passion, it's important, but you do got to have a little bit of a practical, practical bent if you, you know, want to help them, you know, live on their own eventually.

Exactly. Exactly. All right. So when we think back into the workplace and that, that environment, I'm wondering if we could maybe switch gears a little bit. I know you have some thoughts on the whole idea or whole topic of micromanagement. And so let's start with, like, do you have any advice for maybe someone out there struggling with this need to sort of micromanage? Because, you know, we've all done it, you know, I think at least I have.

Yeah, totally.

So, so like what would we do to sort of stop or slow down on that, on that habit of doing that?

In the book, I call it tight jeans management, and I say that it's like putting a pair of tight jeans, non-stretch, but tight, straight from the dryer on. That's how it feels to your employees sometimes if you're micromanaging them. And so feels uncomfortable, feels ugh, even if they squeeze into them like they're going to come and what you are generally intending by this, which I often see coming from a good place. This is someone that's the very common path to management, which is, I was good at my jobs. I was promoted to management. I haven't really gotten that much training, or I've gotten training, but this is important. I gotta focus on this. I know what to do. I wanna protect my team members from embarrassment. I wanna protect myself from having my leaders think my team's incapable. I gotta tell them how to do it. And I'd love to give them freedom, but I, if I'm going to sacrifice right or their freedom, I'm going to make sure it's right. And so a lot of it does come from this like protectionist mentality, I think. And so sometimes people overrotate. I actually found myself as I became a manager overrotating to this because I'd had some tight jeans managers and I thought, I don't want to be like that. But I call this the, my daughter has blessed this as the oversized sweatpants, which is a trend in Atlanta in high school. Drop off at school. I don't know about that, but the oversized sweatpants, which I say, that's those managers that are saying, well, I'm not going to be a micromanager. I'm going to be the complete opposite. I'm not going to have these one-on-one meetings. My team can find me where they need me. I trust them. I'm going to give them autonomy. But when you do that, what you're then intending as freedom, again, from a good place, can end up with a team that doesn't have direction. Like, I just, at this time, and some of the country as you listen to this will still be dealing with snow, hopefully in Texas and Atlanta, we'll be out of this a bit. But is this idea of things like, oh, when weather comes in and how do you deal with this? You know, whether it's organizationally or as a manager. And so a tight jeans approach may be, OK, make sure you have everything you need to make sure you get your work done. And they're, you know, laser-focused on the work. But people may be saying, OK, but my power's out. I don't have a generator. What am I supposed to do? Great. The oversized sweatpants response might be, you know, just do what you think. Do you use your best judgment? But if people don't have any direction on that, I mean, I made a video on this and have gotten already comments from so many people that are like, everybody just ends up coming in and talks about how they were scared to drive because they may hear somebody else coming in. And so they're worried about, about looking, they don't know what the actual expectation is. And so in the middle, what I call, I call it cozy joggers leadership. And I mean, it's like structured autonomy. And so in thinking to yourself, one is kind of recognizing which style you blend into and know that But sometimes something is gonna be high stakes, so you may be more in that tight jeans mentality. But to think about what's, what do my team members really need? And also, where am I maybe unintentionally a bottleneck? So, you know, if I've been telling team members, send me everything before you send it to somebody else, are we delaying everything? Is that the best use of my time? Or what am I actually looking out for in their emails? And how could I not only talk to this team member about it, but have a conversation with our broader team to give real examples of like, when you're sending emails, these are the things to think about. This is, you know, these are ways to really be successful in communication or giving some of those tips. And so I think if you can think about it in that framework, it can help to have a visual, but to really think about how do I create more structured autonomy for my team? Because it can help your team develop the right way, but also for yourself, because frequently managers are giving answers, answers, support, answers at the sake of their own time, energy, vacation, all of that. And you can't do it all. So, so thinking about for your team and also for yourself.

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. So we actually have our video cameras on, right? This is an audio-only podcast for people just listening. But over your shoulder, I kept looking at the sign that you have on your wall that says, Great Minds Overthink Alike. And I got to ask you about it because it's a fantastic statement. So what is that statement? Maybe just sort of wrap things up. Like, what does that say? And maybe is there any parallels to what you've been talking about?

Well, I'll say this. It replaced the sign that used to be there, which is don't let— following all the rules is no fun or something like that. And I realized, as a lawyer in HR, I should probably swap that out. It is true. You got to bet. About him a little bit, but, but, but, but great minds overthink alike, I think, is, is a recognition that a lot of people, they look at like their manager and they're like, ah, my boss, you know, they have all these thoughts. My boss, you don't hear something about my boss. They're not thinking about me, all these things. Those listening, you likely are thinking about your teams and you are overthinking about your teams. And so for me, one thing I think is really important is this validation. To know that work can feel challenging. Being a manager can feel really challenging. And often you're trying to think through situations and you are just really spinning your wheels. And so know that you're not alone. And also, you know, what I do, and Ron, I know, I know what you do, is to try to give people ideas on how you, again, can be a leader. You can, you can, again, have results, but also not sacrifice your life in doing so.

I love it. Love it. Fantastic. Well, Ashley, I really enjoyed this conversation. I appreciate you coming on. I don't know if you have any sort of final words of wisdom that you want to leave our listeners with. And then why don't you tell everybody also how they can best connect with you?

Well, say for the example that I brought up about the snow day, one thing that's really important, the questions that your team are going to have in any situation are how things apply to them. So things like, am I actually expected to come in? Is it really OK if I don't? If I can work remotely, can I? If I can't work remotely, how can I? Is it OK if I go sledding with my kids? Or all of those. So think of the real practical questions for your team. And the more you have those honest conversations, and ideally there's going to be human answers. Sometimes they're not going to be as great as you think. But when you have those conversations and give details, that can transform what you have with your team members in all the rest of the work they do. But you can find more. I'm at @managermethod on most social media platforms. You can see my sign in the background on video and otherwise. And I'm at managermethod.com is my site. And if you go to managermethod.com/book, then you can get the book. But also I have resources, whether you're reading it on your own, reflection resource guides, and a book club guide. If you want to be a superstar and bring a book discussion group for your team, if you're looking for one, you can get a free book club guide to make your life Cool.

Great. And we're going to have everything linked up in the show notes. Everybody just kind of scroll down on the app and whatever you're listening on and go check out this book and Ashley's website. So, hey, again, thanks for coming on. I enjoyed it.

Thank you. I love it, Ron. And as all your listeners should be, I'm giving it a rating and review, which is really important to podcasters. I love listening to it. So go listen to a couple episodes while you're here.

Awesome. All right. Take care.

Thanks, Ron.

Thanks for listening.

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